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761216 - Conversation - Hyderabad

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

761216R1-HYDERABAD - December 16, 1976 - 29.46 Minutes

Prabhupāda: Don't take that I am simply paying agent. Is that all right, that I shall simply go on paying?

Mahāṁśa: No.

Prabhupāda: You have got so many trustees, and you all trustees and managing trustee and this trustee, and for payment I am responsible. Even for purchasing . . . (indistinct) . . . what is this? I did not say at that time, but I talked this morning to them that what is this? I shall pay everything, and you are all big, big trustees? So you give me in writing that including the four lakhs already paid. Already, I am a debtor, and plus this money, whatever I shall, you shall return me within three years. Where is that letter?

Jagadīśa: I can get it typed.

Prabhupāda: Get it typed. Let me see it.

Jagadīśa: This is, ah . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, I can read. You can write letter. Bank of Rajasthan. What is it?

Mahāṁśa: Yes, this was fixed deposit which was in Madras, and since there is nobody in Madras now, Gopāla Kṛṣṇa wanted to transfer that amount to BBT in Bombay. So he told me to get it done. And both the signers, Mahābuddhi and Śyāmānanda, are not available. So if you dictate to the bank as founder-ācārya of ISKCON, then they will send the money and I will direct it to BBT.

Jagadīśa: This is the amount that Gopāla Kṛṣṇa was mentioning in his letter that we read last night that's supposed to go to the BBT.

Prabhupāda: Manager, Bank of Rajasthan, Madras. (break) You cannot avoid it. If you actually want people to be happy, if you actually want world peaceful situation, you have to take Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Otherwise all your attempts will be failure. Because even Mahatma Gandhi, such a great personality, he did not take Bhagavad-gītā as it is—therefore he was also failure, what to speak of us.

Indian man: Then we are going to take . . . few of us are going to take it very seriously.

Prabhupāda: Kindly do that. You can do that. You have got influence, you have got intelligence, you have got the mind, you have got the appreciative power. Therefore, I am asking you amongst our . . . it will be . . . take, for example, our Indian government is secular. So who can be greater secular than our . . . (break) Actually, better become Muhammadan. Therefore, so many Muhammadans. Otherwise they are not imported.

Indian man: They are not imported. They are all over the Indus.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (aside) What is that?

Devotee (3): Aśraddadhānāḥ puruṣāḥ (BG 9.3)?

Prabhupāda: Not that. In Sixteenth Chapter there is verse, that janmani janmani.

Devotee (3): Oh. Oh. (break)

Prabhupāda: And the Congress procession was organized just in front of my shop. And they are coming, sitting, and then the procession began, the civil disobedience. In 19 . . . 30.

Indian man: 1930.

Prabhupāda: When the salt protest began.

Indian man: In 1938.

Prabhupāda: No. Sometimes in 1930, '30 or '31, like that.

Indian man: 1931. When are you coming back?

Prabhupāda: That I do not know, but there is . . .

Indian man: From there?

Prabhupāda: I am going to Hardwar. I may be going to Bombay or Bhubaneswar. That Bhubaneswar man came yesterday. I am thinking of constructing a temple there.

Indian man: When you go to Bhubaneswar? After you go to Delhi?

Prabhupāda: Delhi, I have no immediate program.

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: There is no fixed program now.

Indian man: I would like to help to Delhi . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Immediately I am engaged in so many things. If you like, you can talk only.

Indian man: How many go to Delhi . . . (indistinct) . . .?

Prabhupāda: It is stated in this Bhagavad-gītā that Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ—saintly kings understood. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). So this is not meant for the loafer class of men. Rājarṣi. He must be head of the government, at the same time a saintly person. Then he can understand.

Indian man: Vaiśiṣṭa.

Prabhupāda: Vaiśiṣṭa. Yes. I have given the Bhagavad-gītā is only understood by paramparā. So our rājarṣi is . . . practically there is no rājarṣi. Rāja-rṣi. He is called rājarṣi. It is not for loafer class of men. Then people will be benefited. If the head of the state understands that this is essential, then people will be . . . yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ (BG 3.21). Evetaro janaḥ. Those who are in the subordinate grade, they follow the leaders. So the leaders have given up this science. So how the subordinate class, they will appreciate? They must understand the spirit of Bhagavad-gītā, how it is essential, how people will be happy by following the instruction. Unless rājarṣi understands, how the people? So actually if she wants blessing, the blessing is already there: Bhagavad-gītā. And if she gives some time, we can make her convinced that this is essential. Without this, there is no question of peace and prosperity. There is no question. I think that these contents are essential. All these contents are explained with reference to Bhagavad-gītā, no other.

Indian man: Arjuna is the real . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. So vijñāna, the knowledge is given by Kṛṣṇa. And how Arjuna has taken it? If we compare these two things and take it, then it is real success. And if we imagine which is not confirmed by Arjuna or Kṛṣṇa, then that is concoction; it will never help you. That is going on. Everyone is imagining some way of thinking, and that will not help.

Indian man: She needs your blessings.

Prabhupāda: Ah?

Indian man: She needs your blessings. Mrs. Gandhi needs your blessings in her life. A person like you should bless her; she needs . . .

Prabhupāda: Personally I welcome this Emergency. I welcome. This autocracy we welcome. But the autocrat must be rājarṣi. Then we can have full faith. If this . . . just like this child. The child sleeps very calmly on the lap of the mother because the child knows that, "I am very safe on the lap of my mother." Is it not? The same child in another's lap, he will cry, because he thinks that, "I am not safe." Similarly, this autocracy, or this Emergency, whatever you call, one man's, what is that, is good provided people think, "Now we are safe." Otherwise it is very serious.

Indian man: People have a feeling that they are safe.

Prabhupāda: No. I say the people have faith. But to create that faith, one must be very ideal.

Indian man: One thing about her, what she is doing is really wonderful but . . . (indistinct) . . . discipline has come.

Prabhupāda: No, this can be done provided she understands Bhagavad-gītā and introduces the method. Then there will be no more.

Indian man: That is why I think a meeting, both of you, and you bless her and advise her . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Blessing is already there, Bhagavad-gītā—authorized. Even big, big politicians before her . . . I think Jawaharlal Nehru also commented, Discovery of India, Bhagavad-gītā. And Gandhi was accepted, Tilak accepted. They have written something; therefore they accepted. So why not accept it seriously? Why she is appreciating? That is my point. If you appreciate Bhagavad-gītā is authority, why not take it seriously? And so far these untouchables, Bhagavad-gītā never says untouchables. Bhagavad-gītā says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). Pāpa-yonis are untouchable. Te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. So why not . . . there is no question of untouchable. "Anyone who comes to Me, actually, seriously," te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. Parāṁ gatim, highest perfection of life, if one goes, then where is pāpa-yoni? Not only that, in the Bhagavat, Śukadeva Gosvāmī says the caṇḍālas, kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā . . . (indistinct) . . . śudhyanti, they can be cleaned by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So in the śāstra there is sanction. Nārada Muni says in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that yasya yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ puṁso varṇābhivyañjakam (SB 7.11.35). To designate a person to which varṇa he belongs, there is symptom. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Not that birth. Never says. That these symptoms, Nārada Muni says, if they are found, anyatra. Suppose the symptoms of a brāhmaṇa is found in a caṇḍāla. That caṇḍāla is no more caṇḍāla. Tat tenaiva vinirdiśet. Because he has acquired the qualification of a brāhmaṇa, he should not be called any more caṇḍāla; he should be called brāhmaṇa. Similarly, a brāhmaṇa, although he is born of a high family, but because he has associated with the qualities of a caṇḍāla, he should be called caṇḍāla. This is śāstric injunction. Śāstra never says by birth, stated like that. And that is practically being accepted. One man's qualification is concerned, not that in which family he is born. There are many instances—satyakam yavala.

Indian man: Just . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No, I am doing practically.

Indian man: (indistinct) . . . you should come into the place. People should read about. Like Christians do that. Because this will go a long way, go a long way, that one person has spoke the truth, as it is, as you say—not manufactured. One person, one svāmī, Prabhupāda, spoke the truth. What he explains . . . (indistinct) . . . that this is qualification of the person. Brāhmaṇa could be a caṇḍāla, caṇḍāla could be a brāhmaṇa. That is why this practicing untouchable is a sin, a crime. Don't make . . .

Prabhupāda: There is one verse in which it is said, karmaṇā vaiśyatāṁ gataḥ (SB 9.2.23): by his work he became a vaiśya. Definitely it is said. Like Viśvāmitra. He was kṣatriya, he became brāhmaṇa. Mahārāja Ṛṣabhadeva, He had one hundred sons, kṣatriyas. His eighty-one sons, they became kṣatriyas, and all others, they became brāhmaṇas. Navayogendra. There are many instances. And they were the king also. There is injuction to the brāhmaṇa that in time of difficulty, the brāhmaṇas, you can accept the position of a kṣatriya, you can accept the position of a vaiśya, but never accept the position of a śūdra. These are the injunctions.

Indian man: Why never accept the position of a śūdra? Why?

Prabhupāda: Because that is most abominable.

Indian man: I see.

Prabhupāda: It has been described, śūdra's position is just like dog. So you don't degrade to such position. Now if we study from that point of view Kali-yuga, everyone śūdra. Because śūdra . . . yesterday some gentleman came, he is a physist—what is that?

Jagadīśa: Physicist.

Prabhupāda: So I said that, "You are a qualified person, but if you don't get a salary, then you cannot live." That is the position of śūdra. Brāhmaṇa, they live independently. Kṣatriya, they live independently. Vaiśya, they live independently. A śūdra cannot live independently. That is dog's position. A dog, if he does not get a good master, it is street dog. Therefore it is forbidden: don't become a dog from vaiśya

Indian man: (indistinct) . . . vaiśya, brāhmaṇa . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Therefore I say they are śūdra or less than śūdra. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. Kali-yuga.

Indian man: (indistinct Hindi) . . . he is Marwari.

Prabhupāda: I have seen on the aeroplane one Marwari—no, I shall not say gentleman—(laughter) he was eating intestine of the hog. What is this called?

Jagadīśa: Sausage.

Prabhupāda: Sausage. And I have heard that when this preparation is made, it emanates so bad odor because it is full of stool—they have to get out stool—and then boil it. Is that palatable?

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: We have got four rules and regulations.

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Jagadīśa: We don't eat any meat, fish or eggs, no intoxication, no illicit sex life, no gambling.

(indistinct conversation)

Prabhupāda: I want to see that you become a Vaiṣṇava, perfect, ideal. And your family members are very nice; they can also follow. You have fine daughters, I have seen, very nice. And you are worshiping Bālajī. It is a great fortune. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Yeh Balaji keval namaskar hi kar loge toh tumhara bhaut bhala ho jayega aur kuch na bhi karo. (This is Balaji, if you just only pay obeisances you will be greatly benefitted even if you don't do anything else.) I was very glad to see Bālajī in your house. So bring here. (aside) I do not know who has taken them.

Jagadīśa: I'll ask Hari-śauri. Hari-śauri.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, worldwide accepted. Why not India? Aur dusra rasta nahi hai. (There is no other way apart from this.) What is that verse?

Jagadīśa: Janmani janmani?

Prabhupāda: Yes.


āsurīṁ yonim āpannā
mūḍhā janmani janmani
mām aprāpyaiva kaunteya
tato yānty adhamāṁ gatim
(BG 16.20)

"Taking repeated birth amongst the species of demoniac life, such persons can never approach Me. Gradually they sink down to the most abominable type of existence." (end)