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760907 - Conversation B - Vrndavana

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

760907G1-VRNDAVAN - September 07, 1976 - 20:28 Minutes

(Garden Conversation)

Prabhupāda: . . . of United Nation. Ye practically dekha hai hindu, musalman, christian, jew, african sab ekatrit hue the. (We saw practically Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Jews, Africans—everyone had gathered.)

Dr. O.B.L. Kapoor: Real United Nations.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The real United Nation. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 18.54). Udhar bhi ho sakega. (It can happen there also.) Kṛṣṇotkīrtana-gāna. Not otherwise. In some place I said that this United Nation . . .

Hari-śauri: Oh, Melbourne. In Melbourne they put it on the front page.

Prabhupāda: Melbourne, yes. It was published in the paper, that "It is a dog's barking association." (laughter) It was published.

Dr. Kapoor: Published.

Hari-śauri: Front page. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: And he added something, that "Swami is hounding."

Hari-śauri: Yes, the heading was, "His Divine Grace has come here to hound us." And then the article was Prabhupāda describing how the United Nations was a collection of dogs barking. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: My point was that if you bring some dogs and ask them, "My dear dogs, sit down here peacefully. Don't bark. Don't create trouble." Will they do? Will they do?

Dr. Kapoor: No.

Prabhupāda: If you keep them dogs, how it is possible they will be peaceful?

Indian man: So long as they are dogs it is not possible.

Prabhupāda: It is not possible. And so long one is in the bodily concept of life—"I am Indian," "I am American," "I am this," "I am that"—and all of them go to the United Nation assembly . . . so what is the difference when a dog thinks that "I am dog. I am this dog," and an American or Indian thinks "I am a . . ."? Where is the difference? So as American, as Indian, as German, as Chinese, if they go there, they remain animal, and how there can be peace? That is not possible. And the peace formula is given by Kṛṣṇa: bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram, suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām (BG 5.29). When one understands Kṛṣṇa is suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ, jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati. That is śāntim. So if you keep them as Americans or Indians or this or that, how there can be peace?

Hari-śauri: That was front page.

Dr. Kapoor: (laughs) "He's here to hound us." (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Publicity to khoob hota hai. (A lot of publicity is done.)

Dr Kapoor: (reading from paper) "His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, the founder of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, is here to save us from a dog's life." (laughter) "He's here to save us from a dog's life. For unless we cultivate some spiritual knowledge, warns His Divine Grace, we are left with a dog mentality."

Hari-śauri: This was the New York Ratha-yātrā. This was in New York Times.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The Ratha-yātrā is held on Seventh Avenue . . . (several devotees talking at once)

Prabhupāda: They admitted: "This is the East and West meeting."

Hari-śauri: "Fifth Avenue: Where East Meets West."

Dr. Kapoor: "Where East Meets West." Ah.

Hari-śauri: And this one is in South Africa. (guests look at article)

Prabhupāda: Last year we introduced Ratha-yātrā in Philadelphia. It was very successful. And this year we have introduced in New York. It is also very successful. Everyone—government official, police, public—all enjoyed. And the Fifth Avenue is the most important avenue in the world, Fifth Avenue. So our proposition was . . . how many miles?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: From Washington Square Park . . . how many miles? At least four or five miles.

Pradyumna: Central Park to Washington Square Park. All the way. Full length of the Avenue. Complete, from one end to the other.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The government had sealed it off.

Indian man: What is the effect on Russians, this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement?

Prabhupāda: Here the Russians are afraid of this movement.

Indian man: Afraid of.

Prabhupāda: They are very much afraid. And therefore they are greatest enemy in India. CPI. They are putting so many impediments.

Dr. Kapoor: . . . China?

Prabhupāda: China me bhi kiya hai na. (It has been done in China also.)

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But they like Prabhupāda's books. Russian scholars have praised Prabhupāda's books. I was in Russia two months ago. They have praised Prabhupāda's books very much.

Indian man: Sir, what is your opinion about Sai Baba? (laughter)

Prabhupāda: According to śāstra, koi to shastra unka basis hai nahi. (No scripture is the basis of their philosophy.) Jugglery.

Indian man: No avatāra has declared so far that "I'm avatāra."

Prabhupāda: He is . . . what is called avatāra?

Indian man: But he has declared that "I am avatāra."

Prabhupāda: He has no, nothing on the śāstra basically. And anyone who has no śāstra basics, he's useless. Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ na sa siddhim avāpnoti (BG 16.23). He can cheat so many fools and rascals, it has no meaning. That is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam about this kind of guru. They have been condemned in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. I think you'll find out at the end of the Twenty-fourth Chapter, Eighth Canto. They have been condemned. (break) Now what is the benefit? From rational point of view, suppose he can manufacture gold. That is his jugglery, eh? He can manufacture some gold? So far I have heard. I've not seen.

Indian man: I don't know. He does some kind of trick.

Prabhupāda: Suppose he manufactures a little gold. So far I have heard.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Not gold. He does other magic. Gold also, but other magic.

Prabhupāda: What is that other magic? Generally he . . .

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Generally, it is said he blesses sick people who have diseases, and they get cured.

Prabhupāda: So that is done by medical men also, so what is the excellence? Huh?

Hari-śauri: One man said that once he was traveling in his car, and a train came, and the train hit the car and he was thrown out, but somehow or other he survived. He said he was thrown out to the left hand side and the train stopped, came to a sudden standstill just as it hit the car. So then he said he went to see Sai Baba, and then Sai Baba looked at him and he said, "Oh, you have been in an accident, and your car was hit by the train. But I stopped the train and threw you to the left, and therefore you were not injured." Like this. And he also mentioned that at that time you should think of God.

Prabhupāda: If he can do so, can he save him from death? If he's so powerful?

Dr. Kapoor: That is very easy. I can also do that. (laughter) I know the trick.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: What is the trick?

Dr. Kapoor: I'll not tell it to you. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: No. These tricky things are . . . they have no . . .

Hari-śauri: Sometimes he conjures up different items in his hand. Like he can conjure up a watch. Or there's a particular type of nut that is found in Nepal. So some American scientist was trying to get him to . . .

Prabhupāda: (aside) You have found out that portion?

Pradyumna: I'm just, I'm getting . . .

Hari-śauri: They were trying to get him to give some examples. So he refused. Then he produced this nut in his hand. Then he closed his fist and opened it again, and the nut was there but this time it had a gold cross attached to it, like this. And then he . . .

Prabhupāda: Now what is the result of showing these tricks? What is the ultimate result?

Indian man: B. N. Sarkar shows much better tricks than that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. B. N. Sarkar, he was going on cycle in London, busy street, and his eyes bound up. Everyone has seen it. He was going on cycle in busy . . .

Dr. Kapoor: Motorway.

Prabhupāda: Ordinary street he was going, and his eyes were bound up. Everyone has seen.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The Vice Chancellor of Bangalore University, along with some other professors, they decided to do research into all these so-called gods like Sai Baba. There's another six-year-old "god" called Bhagwan Shri Krishna. So they sent Sai Baba a questionnaire. He did not reply. Then this Vice Chancellor with a group of professors, they went to this six-year-old Bhagwan Shri Krishna. He was producing ash with some magic.

Prabhupāda: Ash?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Ash. So all the local . . . a big crowd would come to see him. So they went and they sat right next to the child. So that day the ash was not produced. So later on the whole thing got exploded, and the child's parent admitted it was bogus. Now that "god" is finished, Bhagwan Shri Krishna. He was six-year-old Śrī Kṛṣṇa. So this Sai Baba refused to answer the questionnaire. He said, "Why should I respond to these people?"

Indian man: He's angry for this . . . (indistinct)

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This group of professors, they're exposing all these bogus gurus who are saying they are God.

Prabhupāda: Have you got it?

Pradyumna: Yes.

acakṣur andhasya yathāgraṇīḥ kṛtas
tathā janasyāviduṣo 'budho guruḥ
tvam arka-dṛk sarva-dṛśāṁ samīkṣaṇo
vṛto gurur naḥ sva-gatiṁ bubhutsatām
(SB 8.24.50)

Prabhupāda: What is that? Acakṣuḥ?

Pradyumna: Acakṣuḥ.

Prabhupāda: Acakṣuḥ . . .

Pradyumna: Acakṣur andhasya yathāgraṇīḥ kṛtas.

Prabhupāda: Abudho guru. So andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). They are gurus. They are blind, and they are guru for blind men. Abudho guru. These have been described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. If we are to accept guru, so the original guru is Kṛṣṇa because He instructed Lord Brahmā, the first living creature within this universe. Tene brahma hṛdā ya ādi-kavaye (SB 1.1.1). He instructed the ādi-kavi. He is the guru, Kṛṣṇa. And in the Bhagavad-gītā He also says, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1). So He is ādi-guru. In Bhagavad-gītā also He is instructing Arjuna. He is ādi-guru. So instead of this tricky, jugglery guru, why not people approach Kṛṣṇa? Therefore acakṣur andha. Ye sab chal raha hai. (All this is going on.) Read this verse again.

Pradyumna: Acakṣur andhasya yathāgraṇīḥ kṛtas tathā janasyāviduṣo 'budho guruḥ.

Prabhupāda: Ah. Aviduṣaḥ abudho guruḥ. Ye jo moorkh hain unke liye ye to. padhe-likhe ke liye thoda hi hai. koi accha aadmi hai . . . (These people who are foolish, it is for them—not for the educated class. One who is a good man . . .)

Indian man: Inke saath aaye hain, unko jaldi hai jana hai. (I have come with them. They want to leave, they are in a hurry.)

'Prabhupāda:' Lao prasad lao. (Get the prasadam. You can bring something . . .)

Pradyumna: Drink?

Prabhupāda: 'abi jusam . . .' nahi hamare kehane ka matlab hai. (No, what I meant to say is, if things are very easy, why do they go the roundabout way?) Bhagavān svayam bata rahe hain, (God Himself is saying) man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayaḥ (BG 18.68). To ye saral baat chod karke kiske... . peeche bhag rahe hain. 'man mana mad bhakto bhagvan swayam bata rahe hain ki hamare vishay me chintan karo, koi mushkil hai. Ab ye jo sab aaye hain bhagvan ka murti dekh rahe hain aur thoda sa chintan hoyega hi. Agar roz mandir me aaye, bhagvan ka darshan kare to man mana bhakt ho jayega aate-aate, aur ek namaskar karna hai man mana mad bhakto mad yaji, agar samarth hai to puja karo aur puja karne ke liye to bhagvan 'patram pushpam phalam toyam thoda patr do, garib se garib hai ek patr, ek phool le aao, ye koi mushkil hai, aur kuch nahi to namskar karo, aur isi me tum 'mam evaisasi . . . ye sab chod karke . . . kya baat hai hmm . . . (So leaving this simple process, why are you running behind something else? "man mana mad bhakto" God is Himself saying that, "Meditate upon me/" Is it very difficult? Now these people who have come are seeing the Deities and definitely they will meditate a little. If you come to the temple daily and see the Deities, then coming regularly "Man mana bhakto" you will become a devotee. And pay your obeisances "Man mana mad bhakto mad yaji" and if you have the capacity, then do Deity worship. For doing worship, God has said: "Patram pushpam phalam toyam", little leaf, even the poorest can get leaves. A little water, a flower—is this very difficult? If not anything, then just pay respects to the Lord and in this way only you "Mam evaisyasi" . . . leaving all this . . . what is the matter? Hmm . . .) I went to see the Ramakrishna Mission head, Prabodhananda Swami. So just by seeing me, he immediately said that Thakur was formerly Gaura Hari.

Indian man: What Swāmījī? Gauḍīya? Gaura Hari.

Prabhupāda: Gaura Hari. To usi bakt hum samajh gaye kya bolta hai . . . (Immediately I understood what he was saying . . .) He said Ramakrishna Thakur, Thakur Rama . . . he was formerly Gaurasundara. Gaurasundara . . . aur Gaurasundara das Krishna bhakti prachar kiya aur phir idhar aakkarke kali puja karna shuroo kiya. Ye humko maloom hai. Nahi ye Ramkrishna kali puja karta tha. ye humko samajh me aaya. to kaun samjhe, moorkh log samajhe. aur wo Gaursundar humko bataya ki 'jare dakhe tare kaho krishna upadesh' aur phir is janm me kali puja karta hai. Ye sab chal raha hai. aur shastra me batate hain bhagvan sway (verse) ann devta jo puja karte hain wo 'hrta jnana' aur Vishwanath Chakravarti Thakur iska comment diya hai 'nasht budhya' buddhi naash ho gaya hai, yehi sab doosre-doosre devta ka puja karega. To jiska buddhi naash ho gaya aisa vyakti kali puja karne ko bhagvan. Shastrta me uska buddhi naash ho gaya hai aur wo bhagvan. Ye sab chal raha hai. to ye sab kaun samjhega . . . aur humlog yehi prachar karte hain jisme do-char aadmi aa jata hai, zyada idhar-udhar ka baat karke . . . bana karke . . . 'krsnas tu bhagvan swayam'. (Gaurasundara das spread the message of devotion and came here and started worshiping mother Kali. I know this. No, this Ramakrishna worships goddess Kali. This I came to understand. Who will understand? All are fools and rascals and that Gaurasundara told us "Jare dekhe tare kaho krishna upadesh" and in this life he worships Kali. All this is going on. And in the scriptures it is said God himself (verse) those who worship demigods they are "Hrta jnana" and Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura makes a comment on this "Nasht buddhya" they have lost their intelligence. They worship different demigods. So a person whose intelligence is lost, he worships goddess Kali and considers himself God. He has lost his intelligence scripturally and thinks he is God. This is going on. So who is going to understand all this? . . . we are preaching the science of God and 2 to 4 people come in, we don't discuss unnecessary topics . . . make up . . . "Krsnas tu bhagavan svayam".) (end)