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760906 - Conversation A - Vrndavana

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

760906R1-VRNDAVAN - September 06, 1976 - 75:16 Minutes

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's bhakti-nitya-siddha is already there. Otherwise it was not possible to become so successful in the foreign countries. They are not fools, accepting something bogus.

Harikeśa: Kṛṣṇa consciousness has succeeded amongst all kinds of religions.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Harikeśa: It's succeeded amongst all kinds of religions, amongst all kinds of nations.

Prabhupāda: Everything.

Harikeśa: All kinds of economic systems.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7): "There is nothing greater than Me." How anything can exceed Kṛṣṇa? That's all. You present Kṛṣṇa right, then Kṛṣṇa will exceed anything—any department of knowledge, any department of activity. Anything. Supreme, parataram. Para-taram. Tara is used—superlative. If our men become serious to distribute . . . of course, it is not possible that the whole world will be Kṛṣṇa conscious, but at least they will know that there is such a thing. I may know at least there is diamond. I may not be able to purchase. That everyone can know: there is a very valuable jewel. Even though he has not seen it, still he'll appreciate that there is a very valuable jewel known as diamond. That much will also help. When he has got money, he can purchase it. (break) Because gentleman will come you have to break this wall. What is this nonsense?

Akṣayānanda: Yes, actually I didn't want it broken.

Prabhupāda: You didn't know, but it is going on.

Akṣayānanda: Now they have to finish.

Prabhupāda: Any rascal comes, he gives some order. This is the difficulty.

Akṣayānanda: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Any rascal comes, he's a third-class man, he gives some idea.

Akṣayānanda: I'm going to get this work finished today, definitely.

Prabhupāda: He has no position; he is third-class man. He has given some idea, "Here, you break it." That is the nature. And how long this work will continue? Throughout the whole life?

Akṣayānanda: No. I'm going to finish it today.

Prabhupāda: You say no, but it is going on. You simply say "No," "Yes," "No," "Very good." That's all.

Akṣayānanda: When I go away and I come back and the wall is broken, what can I do?

Prabhupāda: Don't go.

Akṣayānanda: That's right.

Prabhupāda: You don't manufacture idea. Don't allow others to manufacture ideas.

Akṣayānanda: Right, right.

Prabhupāda: Simply manufacturing idea.

Akṣayānanda: I understand.

Prabhupāda: In Bombay also they have manufactured idea. One hole, one lift. There is no need, and you have manufactured some idea. Very expert in manufacturing nonsense ideas.

Hari-śauri: The thing is how to distinguish between what's a good idea . . .

Prabhupāda: You have to take ideas from your guru.

Akṣayānanda: From intelligence.

Prabhupāda: Therefore gurum evābhigacchet. Why do you manufacture yourself? Consult the authorities, then do it. That is intelligence. Why do you think that you are very intelligent? That is materialism. The more you remain that, "I am a fool," that is good. And as soon as you become over-intelligent, then, that's finished. So Europeans, Americans, they are over-intelligent. They have intelligence, over-intelligence. Unnecessarily. They manufacture a machine for shaving: gow-gow-gow-gow-gow-gow. (makes machine sound). (laughter) And they have wasted so much time. So much time. But people like it.

Akṣayānanda: Prabhupāda, if we don't use soap, the question has come up, how to wash the clothes? How to wash the cloth? If you do not use any soap, the question has come up, how to wash the cloth? By beating only? Sufficient?

Prabhupāda: For washing cloth you require soap. But does not . . . you require everything, but because you are spending without any sense . . . so I calculated yesterday the whole thing, Deity worship, Deity pūjā, will require five hundred rupees per month.

Akṣayānanda: I had requested for the flowers . . . Viśvambhara said twelve rupees you had decided last night.

Prabhupāda: Twelve rupees, thirteen rupees . . .

Akṣayānanda: Twelve, thirteen. Actually today, I wanted for today, but the flower man was not able to . . . we could not catch him in time. But from tomorrow it will start, definitely.

Prabhupāda: The thing is that one who is cheating you, he will cheat in twelve rupees, also he will cheat in fifty rupees.

Akṣayānanda: Yes, I know.

Prabhupāda: He knows how to cheat you.

Akṣayānanda: Yes, they're expert.

Prabhupāda: Where do they get flowers?

Akṣayānanda: There are two flower men. They come here from Bankebehari. Now Viśvambhara has made two, because they make a competition between each other, and therefore they keep down. But . . .

Prabhupāda: Nobody is honest.

Akṣayānanda: But still old flowers are coming. Still old flowers are coming. We're getting cheap, but old ones are coming. Brown flowers, old ones are coming. It's just by experience, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Where they get flower?

Akṣayānanda: Wherefrom? The actual flower men? I don't know.

Prabhupāda: In the market the flowers are not sold?

Akṣayānanda: I don't know. Viśvambhara said that this was the best. Viśvambhara is very expert. He's supremely expert at catching these cheaters. But even he gets cheated sometimes. Even things go by and he doesn't notice. He's very, very expert. If I ever get to be as expert as him, then maybe something good will happen. But even he is also being cheated sometimes.

Prabhupāda: Cheating is one of the qualification of the conditioned soul.

Akṣayānanda: Prabhupāda, Viśvambhara . . .

Prabhupāda: Vipralipsa, vipralipsa. Bhrama, pramada, vipralipsa, karaṇāpāṭava. So cheating is a qualification of the conditioned soul. Everyone is expert in cheating, more or less. That is qualification. People take pride, "Oh, I have cheated. I am so expert that I have cheated." When the lawyers make some agreement between the two lawyers, simply think, "How I can cheat you? How can I cheat you?" That's all. The more one lawyer is expert in cheating, he is big lawyer.

Hari-śauri: Yes, because their business is to avoid the law.

Akṣayānanda: They are called lawyer, but their business is to break the law.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The best cheater is the best lawyer.

Akṣayānanda: So that means if we become pure then we can avoid being cheated, because we ourselves will not cheat anymore.

Prabhupāda: No, this world is full of cheaters. We have to live with them. Śaṭhe śaṭhuṁ samācaret. You also have to become better cheater. That is wanted. Otherwise, you cannot exist.

Akṣayānanda: But we have to cheat for Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Do everything for Kṛṣṇa, that is all right. But this world, if you become simple and the whole world is full of cheaters, then you suffer.

Akṣayānanda: You lose always.

Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to know and protect yourself from the cheaters. So sometimes we have to become a bigger cheater. This is the world. Vañcaka-vañcī. Whole world is going on, my Guru Mahārāja used to say, that one is cheater, another is cheated.

Hari-śauri: There's a saying in English . . . what is it? "Set a thief to catch a thief." The purport is that you have to think like a thief, then you can catch him, you can know what he's doing.

Prabhupāda: Set a fish?

Hari-śauri: Set a thief to catch a thief.

Prabhupāda: Thief, oh, yes. You can reply him . . . (break) Those who are actually serious to advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they are welcome.

Akṣayānanda: Pāpī-tāpī jata chilo.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If he's serious to become free from this material world and go back to home, back to . . . you welcome him. We don't make any discrimination. Ābāla-vṛddha-vanitā. Bāla means children, vṛddha means old man, and vanitā means woman. They are most helpless. Ābāla-vṛddha-vanitā. Vanitā. Beginning from the child up to the old man, and . . . but coming here, if they plan for sense gratification, that is very dangerous. Come here, stay with us. We shall somehow or other provide him with prasādam and place. But be advanced. And the simple method is recommended:

yasyāṁ vai śrūyamāṇāyāṁ
kṛṣṇe parama-pūruṣe
bhaktir utpadyate puṁsaḥ
(SB 1.7.7)

Very simple thing. Yasyāṁ vai śrūyamāṇāyām. Simply hear Bhāgavatam. And actually if anyone seriously reads Bhāgavatam, he'll become saintly, no doubt about it.

Akṣayānanda: Your Bhāgavata. There are no others actually.

Prabhupāda: Vyāsadeva, the words of Vyāsadeva, I am simply trying to explain, that's all.

Akṣayānanda: No one else is trying. No one else has done it.

Prabhupāda: It is due to the blessing of my Guru Mahārāja. He directly told me that "If you get some money, publish some books." I took it seriously, so he's helping me. All our Godbrothers, they didn't take it. Did not know it, neither . . . even they . . . they know it. Because from the very beginning, Guru Mahārāja was serious about publication. He started press and published these books. This Bhāgavata was published by him. And the journal, six journals, he was very much fond of publishing, publication. Very, very. He told me directly that, "If it was possible to get the marbles from this Gauḍīya Maṭha and sell it and convert it into books, I would have done it. Because I know there will be blazing fire in this place." (break) . . . books.

Akṣayānanda: Yeah, I know.

Prabhupāda: And by Kṛṣṇa's grace, by selling books we are getting. This is Kṛṣṇa's grace. Otherwise . . . this Bon Mahārāja is so proud of his institution. He could not do this. He could have done it. For the last forty years.

Akṣayānanda: He does not speak kṛṣṇa-kathā, Prabhupāda. So five thousand you have estimated for the Deities? Five thousand. For a month you have estimated last night five thousand?

Prabhupāda: Five hundred.

Akṣayānanda: Five hundred. For all . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: For a month?

Akṣayānanda: With Viśvambhara you had discussed?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Akṣayānanda: Then I'll talk to him now.

Prabhupāda: Just like we were going to, in the evening . . . don't divert attention. In the evening we have estimated four plates. Each plate, eight purīs.

Akṣayānanda: Six plates.

Prabhupāda: Six plates. Six plates, eight purīs, means forty-eight purīs. Forty-eight purīs, Viśvambhara calculated the atta and ghee.

Akṣayānanda: Yes, you already made that estimate.

Prabhupāda: Two rupees. Atta and ghee, two rupees. Then other preparation, another two rupees.

Akṣayānanda: He'll tell me everything, Prabhupāda. No need to . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, why don't you hear?

Akṣayānanda: I'm sorry.

Prabhupāda: You are hearing now. Four rupees to prepare all the plates. Four rupees, say five rupees. So five rupees, monthly 150 rupees. So we are offering four times. So 150 rupees four times.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Six hundred rupees.

Prabhupāda: Six hundred rupees. So take another four hundred rupees, make one thousand. It should not go more than five hundred to one thousand. You spend it.

Harikeśa: But milk, when you cook down milk to make a sweet . . .

Prabhupāda: I have taken from six hundred to one thousand. All the maintenance.

Akṣayānanda: I will take every item with Viśvambhara, every single item.

Prabhupāda: You don't believe me?

Akṣayānanda: I can't understand. My intelligence is not great enough to understand it. I believe you, but I have to do it, that's all.

Prabhupāda: It cannot go more than one thousand.

Akṣayānanda: I can't quite grasp it, Prabhupāda. But you say it can't go above five hundred, so that'll be it.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Five hundred, that is rough calculation. But we add another five hundred, if there is any mistake or any error and omission. Therefore I have added another five hundred.

Akṣayānanda: That means a thousand.

Prabhupāda: Thousand. That is sufficient.

Akṣayānanda: Maximum.

Prabhupāda: Maximum. And you were speaking 9,000.

Akṣayānanda: This is for food. Food only.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It is for Deity messing.

Akṣayānanda: Deity food only. Yes.

Prabhupāda: So I am speaking of the Deity, not for all. For all others, hundred rupees per head, five thousand rupees. Here purī, kachorīs, and other things, all the best things. But general is not for purī, kachorī, and . . . they are general food. We are not going to supply purī, kachorī, halavā to everyone.

Akṣayānanda: No, never. Never have.

Prabhupāda: Only for the Deity.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Others are just dāl, sabjī, rice, cāpāṭi.

Prabhupāda: Everything. Everything calculated.

Akṣayānanda: I believe you, Prabhupāda. But to make it practical I want to see every item. The cost, the weight and everything.

Prabhupāda: It is already calculated.

Akṣayānanda: Then I can do it. Then we can do it.

Prabhupāda: It is already calculated. I calculated, not with a fool, with an experienced man.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I have one other question regarding . . . we are going to observe very strict policies. Unless somebody is working, he cannot stay in the temple. If some other tourist devotee comes from some other center, he can only stay for three days. But beyond that he should either pay or he should go and preach or do something else.

Akṣayānanda: Like some service.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: What should we do with . . . like there's some sannyāsīs here, like Yaśodānandana Swami and his party. I hear they're going to stay for the whole month. They're already here since two weeks. They're occupying two rooms, everything. They're going to stay here till the end of the month.

Akṣayānanda: Get him to go and preach for Vṛndāvana.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The only reason I'm talking this is because now it's really tight. We can't take . . . they have air-conditioned room . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, they should go and preach and bring some collection.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They're just relaxed, resting for a month.

Akṣayānanda: A month is too long, Prabhupāda said. Prabhupāda said three days a sannyāsī should stay, and then he should go and travel. The wheels should be turning. I'll talk to him.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Because this just adds up. A ten-people party staying here for a month . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, they've always come, so there must be some control.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Few men are here from Haṁsadūta's party who eat with us. All this just adds up, then our budget cannot be maintained.

Akṣayānanda: I'll preach to him.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Air-conditioned room.

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. They're our men.

Harikeśa: Yes. It's required. If anyone's ever done a big preaching program, he cannot . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: But one month . . .

Akṣayānanda: A month is a long time. Maybe a week. But a month . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Week is sufficient. One month is too much. That is laziness.

Akṣayānanda: Residential. Laziness.

Prabhupāda: So he was preaching in the South India, so why he came here? There was no resting place?

Harikeśa: He came here . . . actually, they're going north soon. They're going to be in Chandigarh when we're in Chandigarh.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That is six weeks from now.

Harikeśa: That's all right. They're also going north and preaching, and he's having a very hard time getting his financial position down. And he has no men. Two, three, four men. He's having . . .

Prabhupāda: How he'll return my fifteen thousand?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That Mahāṁsa has taken.

Prabhupāda: I do not know Mahāṁsa has taken. He has to return it.

Harikeśa: He never got it. And he wanted to join with Haṁsadūta, do some type of . . . (indistinct) . . . he's not in a very easy position right now.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He could become a part of Vṛndāvana and take a team out of Vṛndāvana.

Akṣayānanda: I always wanted Vṛndāvana should have one bus. That is to say, if there is not too much endeavor to get one bus. There's so many buses are floating are through the air. Why could Vṛndāvana not have one bus? In that way they can always be just like Kīrtanānanda Swami. There is always saṅkīrtana going and coming, going and coming. And the same people . . .

Prabhupāda: Ānanda Swami?

Akṣayānanda: Kīrtanānanda, in New Vṛndāvana. All his people, they must go out and do kīrtana and distribute books. They must. Everybody does it. In that way the . . . I'm told this, anyway. In that way the devotees are enlivened, and they don't become restless in the temple. Then the same ones . . . it's our bus, and they will come back to our temple. So we will not lose too many good devotees because they will not be attracted to go away on others'. So if we had one bus . . . Yaśodānandana Mahārāja, I will discuss with him. I already have. I'll just try to discuss it more.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Gurudāsa Swami is coming to Vṛndāvana with a bus. He said he's going to give it to Vṛndāvana.

Akṣayānanda: And there's no need for me to go out. There's so many nice sannyāsīs. So many big preachers and so many buses. So if we just try it.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Īśvara-candra prabhu has come from Mathurā. (break)

Prabhupāda: When you will come to preach something? You take it from me.

Īśvara-candra: Last one and a half year I'm trying for something in Mathurā, but I'm . . .

Prabhupāda: You are trying in your own way. But Kṛṣṇa does not like that program. You can manufacture your something, idea, but Kṛṣṇa will allow or not. I tell you. This is practical. You are a qualified man, foreign educated man, and you have come back for the last one and a half years, still you are in nothing. It is surprising. That means Kṛṣṇa does not want you to do that something. You take it from me. These boys have come because they found, outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness, life is nothing. That's a fact. Therefore they are sticking to this. They knew it very well, that outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness the whole world was vacant, "Nothing for us." That is a fact. Therefore they have got something here. They are not foolish rascals they're sticking for nothing. There is something. It's a fact. So for nothing, "Oh, we have suffered." And come to something, if you want. That's Prāṇava, he is trying for something. He has come also in Vṛndāvana more than one year also. Huh?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Two, three years.

Harikeśa: More than that. Three and a half years.

Prabhupāda: And he's trying to do something. The same "something." He was at home, the same woman and same man. And again also here the same woman and man, and trying to do something. But he has no customer. He has only customer how to cheat these Europeans and Americans. Surmā (kohl) merchant. As if surmā is not available in the market. And he advertises "This is my special formula, and this is this, this is this. You take it and give me five hundred rupees and go away." He cannot sell outside. Otherwise, why he's sticking to Vṛndāvana? Thinking "The fools and rascals, the Americans are. I shall introduce." Kyu thik bola? Ye unka kaam chal raha hai. Humara to apna nahi hai je American ko cheat karke . . . (indistinct) . . . banaunga . . . (So, am I correct? This is going on. Our aim is not to cheat the Americans . . . (indistinct) . . .) That this material world has become nothing. You come to something now. Idhar raat me raho, jo kamra . . . (indistinct) . . . wo kamra de denge aur lo Bhagavan ka prasad, daal-roti mil jayega khana, kaam karo. Kyu lehsun khate ho sab? Kya labh? . . . (Stay here tonight, that room . . . (indistinct) . . . will be provided for you, take the Lord's prasādam, chapati and dāl and work nicely. Why consume onion and garlic? What's the use?) If anyone wants to go to Bhagavān, then he has to make this material world voluntarily nothing. Niṣkiñcanasya. Niṣkiñcana means nothing. You understand, you translate. You know the meaning of niṣkiñcana. Kiñcana means "something," and niḥ means "not." Then nothing. So one who has made this material world as nothing. How it is made? Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). Because with this something, as soon as one will stick to this something, he'll suffer. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt (SB 7.5.5). Because he has accepted this rascal situation, asat. Asat means either temporary or bad. Asat. Tum to translate karte ho. Asat ka arth kya hota hai? (You can translate. What's the meaning of asat?) Temporary or useless.

So this material world is . . . temporary, we can know it is. But it is useless, that we do not know. Therefore we struggle. "Let me go. Let me fight, fight, fight, fight." That is māyā. Gadha ko jaise ghas dikhata hai. (Just like they show grass to a donkey.) You know that? A man is sitting on the ass. And his hand just on the front of the gādhā, ass, he's putting some grass. And the gādhā is thinking, "I will eat this grass," so he's going forward. But the grass is also going forward. This is very instructive. The grass is, say, one feet above his head, and the man is sitting on his back. But because this gādhā does not know that "Actually, this man is sitting on my . . . as soon as I go forward, the grass also goes forward." But because he's ass, he does not know. He thinks that, "If I go a little forward I'll get the grass." But he has no knowledge that the arrangement is so made that as you go forward the grass also goes forward. Another example is that meerage. Myrage? There is no water.

Harikeśa: Mirage.

Prabhupāda: Mirage. There is no water; it appears there is water. And the animal goes forward and it goes forward, it goes forward. So this material world is like that. Ask anybody, any so-called successful. Unless he's an ass, nobody will say that this is very comfortable. So best thing is to become niṣkiñcana. Niṣkiñcanasya bhāgavata-bhajana . . . this is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction. Bhāgavata-bhajana means niṣkiñcana. You make nothing this material world. That is real Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And so long I'll make this material world something, then I'll suffer. Best thing is make it . . . just like Draupadī. Draupadī, when she was grabbed in the assembly and Duryodhana and Karṇa wanted to make her naked . . . so generally woman, if you try to make her naked she'll try to save herself. So she was trying to save herself, and when she thought, "There is no way. My husbands are here. They are not helping, and . . . so cloth is being supplied by Kṛṣṇa, but how long I shall?" No, before Kṛṣṇa helping, she was trying to help herself. But when she found that it is not possible, then (s)he did not try to save the cloth. (S)he said: "Kṛṣṇa, save me!" Two arms. You have seen the picture. And then Kṛṣṇa supplied cloth. So it is, "Go on, yes, Duḥśāsana, you go on. You try to make her naked. I'll supply."

So this is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction, that one should, if one is serious about bhagavad-bhajana, he should take it, whole material world, as nothing. Sometimes I think, "I made nothing this material world, and again retired in Vṛndāvana. Again, Kṛṣṇa, you have given so many things. What is the purpose?" At that time, I remember Rūpa Gosvāmī's instruction, "This is not mine. This is Kṛṣṇa's." Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe yuktaṁ vairāgya. We are exerting so much energy to construct a temple, but as soon as we become implicated, "Now I have got this big building. Let me live very comfortably," then it is very dangerous. So long we work for Kṛṣṇa, it is Kṛṣṇa's, I am still nothing. And as soon as I take it, "Oh, now I have got very good, comfortable place. Make me again something," (laughs) take that as dangerous. Otherwise, there is no danger. Therefore we have to be engaged always in Kṛṣṇa's service. Not that, "Because we have got this nice building and income also, let us now sit down and eat." Then you'll stop. You shall have to be engaged always. Because our brain is materialistic, as soon as there is little chance of utilizing for sense gratification, mind: "Yes, yes. Do it." Still, we have to do it.

prāpañcikatayā buddhyā
mumukṣubhiḥ parityāgaḥ
phalgu vairāgyam kathyate
(Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.256)

Rūpa Gosvāmī. Hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ. Things which are connected with Kṛṣṇa, you should never think it that it is material. It is spiritual. . . . Samajh me aya hai to ye sab nothing ko choro. Uska . . . (indistinct) . . . nothing jab hai to nothing hi kar do . . . "Ar na re baap!" (. . . if you have really understood, then give up all these things. Since your . . . (indistinct) . . . has ultimately come to nothing then leave that thing for good . . . "Not any more!",) Jagāi-Mādhāi . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu asked him that, "You make this nothing, this sinful activity. Then I accept you." They promised, "Yes." That's all . . . (indistinct) . . . sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyaḥ (BG 18.66)." Kya ambition hai life me? (What is your ambition in life?) What is your ambition? Hmm? What is the ambition?

Īśvara-candra: Nothing is there.

Prabhupāda: Huh? Then again nothing? There must be something. Why you are sticking to that company? There must be some ambition.

Īśvara-candra: I want to take care of my family what . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: So how you can take care with nothing? If Kṛṣṇa makes you nothing, then how you can take care of your family? Bālasya neha śaraṇaṁ pitarau nārtasya ca . . . (SB 7.9.19). These things I have explained, that we have got so many means against struggle for existence, but that is not final. Tāvat tanu-bhṛtāṁ tvad-upekṣitānām. If there is no sanction from Kṛṣṇa, you cannot do it. It is impossible. If Kṛṣṇa does not like you to be implicated in that way, that is false, then how can you do it? You are thinking that "I shall take care of my family." But if Kṛṣṇa wants that you cannot take care of your family, then how you'll do it? Can you go against the will of Kṛṣṇa? You can understand at least this, if not very much advanced. You cannot go against the will of Kṛṣṇa. So you have tried for the last one and a half years, you could not improve your material situation. That means you are going against the will of Kṛṣṇa. Take it from me. Kitne bacche hai? (How many children do you have?)

Īśvara-candra: I have four.

Prabhupāda: Four. To jitne bacche idhar hai, usko do roti milta hai, dudh milta hai. Hum log bhi de sakte hai. Usme kya hai? (So all these kids here get milk and chapati daily. We can also provide. Where is the difficulty?) Separate. No more together. Phir panchva baccha ho jayega. (Then the fifth child will be born. Stop this. (Ajkal to government bhi mana karta hai. (Nowadays even the Government is forbidding people from having many children.)

Īśvara-candra: What can I do? (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ (SB 7.9.45). Everything is discussed in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Kṛpaṇa, brāhmaṇa, kṛpaṇa, tṛpyanti neha. He knows that "One bāccā has given me so much trouble." Illicit or legal, . . . jo kuch hoye (. . . whatever is the case.) It is troublesome business. Otherwise, why these Americans and Europeans, they're killing their own child? They don't want to take the botheration. Abhi to India me waha tak pahucha nahi. Aste aste pahuch jayega. Ab to shuru ho gaya, zabardasti. To . . . (In India, things have not deteriorated to such a low level but it won't take long. It has already been started by force.) So it is botheration, there is no doubt about it. The Bhāgavata says, tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇāḥ. The kṛpaṇa . . . Jo kripana hota hai. Kripana ka artha hota hai . . . (One who is a miser. The meaning of kṛpaṇa is . . .) What is the meaning of kṛpaṇa? Do you know? Miser. Miser, what is the meaning of miser?

Īśvara-candra: He's got something but he doesn't want to . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. We have got this something, human form of body, to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Instead of doing that, in spite of possessing this something, I am utilizing it for sense gratification. If you want sense gratification that's all right. Get one child, two child. Why again and again? Therefore śāstra says, tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇāḥ (SB 7.9.45). Because he's kṛpaṇa, he's never satisfied. He's suffering—again, another child, again, another child. All right, you have got two child, one child, that's all right. Be satisfied. Why again and again? So kṛpaṇa. Kṛpaṇa, he does not know how to utilize this asset of human life. He's wasting the asset in a different way. Kṛpaṇa. One has to become brāhmaṇa. The opposite word of kṛpaṇa is brāhmaṇa. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). That is wanted. So we are giving brāhmaṇa's position. Instead of taking the brāhmaṇa position, if he wants to take again kṛpaṇa position, then what is the use of being initiated? All these great sages, saintly person, who were they? They were all brāhmaṇas. Brāhmaṇa. Śukadeva Gosvāmī is always addressed Brahman. Is it not? This is brāhmaṇa's business. It is not the kṛpaṇa's business. Kṛpaṇa's business means he does not know how to utilize the asset.

So Jab aya hai . . . (When you have come . . .) it is my duty to speak the truth. So now you can do whatever you like . . . give him prasādam. (break) . . . these words, tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. They have been described, it is just like . . . of course, it is very difficult, this itching. We have got practical experience. When there is some itching, we cannot stop it. We cannot stop it. Even if I do not want it, still . . . so it is like itching. Nothing more. Kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham (SB 7.9.45). The tapasya means how to control this itching sensation. This is tapasya. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa (SB 6.1.13). Tapasya means, tapasya begins, now brahmacārī. That is tapasya. Tapasya means brahmacārī. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa śamena damena, tyāgena, satya-śaucābhyāṁ yamena niyamena. This is tapasya. It is very strong power, this . . . therefore Bhāgavata said that this power, sex power, is there in the hogs. They have no discrimination between mother, sister, daughter. And simply busy. The example is given. This capacity is there in the hog. Are you hog? How example is given. Do you like to remain like a hog? One should be saintly. Yes. Then where is the difference, I'm a human being? I am treating like hog. Therefore this very example. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujām (SB 5.5.1). This is for the hogs. This hog civilization is going on as human civilization. That is the difficulty. Whole world is hogs and dogs. Big, big United Nation, and what are the assembly? Hogs and dogs. The politicians, as soon as he gets some time for relax, immediately he becomes hogs: go to the hotel, prostitute, and drink and dance. Is it not? All politicians. You become a big hog. That's all. Without becoming politician, a small hog. Because they have got politi . . . big hog.

Akṣayānanda: It's terrible.

Prabhupāda: So how you can expect prosperity from these big hogs? After all, he's hog. What benefit you can derive from this hogs, assembly of hogs, United Nation? United hogs. You cannot expect. He's hog. Now they're making propaganda for sterilization, and if we advise . . .

Akṣayānanda: Yes. I was just thinking about that.

Prabhupāda: No, no. If we advise, make a brahmacārī-āśrama from the beginning, they will not take. "What is this nonsense, brahmacārī?"

Akṣayānanda: Is it because they cannot? Do they reject it because they cannot do it?

Prabhupāda: They can. They'll not accept the process. They can, everyone. Otherwise why these brahmacārīs?

Akṣayānanda: Otherwise how we could . . .

Prabhupāda: Just to be trained. That's all. By training we can find so many brahmacārīs. Just like by training you have given up so many things. You were accustomed to this illicit sex and meat-eating and . . . but you have given up. But why? By training. So if we request the government, "Let us open this brahmacārī . . ." they'll not help. But they'll make the other propaganda. They'll make contraceptive method. And naturally one Hindu widow is trained up not to marry again. Once she got a husband, that's all right. "Now you convert your . . . you divert your attention to Kṛṣṇa." They'll make propaganda, "Why stop her sense gratification? Let her marry again, widow marriage." Why widow marriage? If there is voluntarily giving up begetting any more child, to avoid husband, why the widow marriage bill is introduced? Everything was natural, brahmacārī. The sterilization is already there. That will not be accepted. Widow, she's remaining refrained from. Just like we have now asked our girls not to dress attractively, widow. They should dress not attractively. Because after all, what is this sex enjoyment?

Akṣayānanda: Finished.

Prabhupāda: It is not very good thing. By outward attraction they attract. Nice sārī, nice . . . (indistinct) . . . one becomes attracted. Therefore this is psychology, that if the woman does not dress very nicely, she will not be attractive. Unnecessarily attraction she will avoid. But a woman is naturally . . . her psychology is dress very nicely so that man may be attracted. Because they want shelter. This is the whole psychology. They, although they declare independence, they cannot live independently. That is not possible. Therefore they are by nature accustomed to dress attractively so that one may accept her and give her shelter. This is psychology. Otherwise, why the woman are naturally inclined to dress herself nice? Man does not. This is the psychology. A boy, sixteen-years-old boy, he does not . . . he is roughly dressed, he does not . . . but a sixteen-year-old girl will never remain roughly. She'll always try to decorate herself very nicely and utilize her youthful beauty for attracting. Why attracting? Because she wants shelter. Therefore it is the duty of the father and mother that, "She is young girl, she wants shelter, and out of passion, lusty desires, her selection may be wrong. So before she selects out of her own way, let me—it is my duty, I am guardian—give her some good shelter." This is Hindu process.

Akṣayānanda: Perfectly natural.

Prabhupāda: Very natural.

Akṣayānanda: But they say restricting. But they will say restricting, unnatural.

Prabhupāda: They may say, but this is natural psychology. Father, mother, they know, the well-wisher of the children. Yes. Now everything is spoiled. But we don't care for this. We say take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, everything will be adjusted.

Akṣayānanda: By sterilization, Prabhupāda . . . when they perform some operation, that will also spoil their intelligence.

Prabhupāda: Everything is spoiled.

Akṣayānanda: Because if the, as I have read, if the semina can go to the brain then there can be some intelligence, if even a little could go. Is it by sterilization no more can go to the brain, I think. So they have become bail (oxen). They've become like the bail.

Prabhupāda: Nowadays boys are dull. Why dull?

Akṣayānanda: So dull in India.

Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Because they discharge semina like anything. Must be dull.

Akṣayānanda: Yeah. And then by . . .

Prabhupāda: Uddhareta. There is a word, uddhareta. Reta means semina. One who has learned how to divert the movement of the semina to the brain, uddhareta, greatest yogī. By yogic power they can do that. Instead of discharging, going down.

Akṣayānanda: So if they become sterilized, then there's no more possible for the semina to go up. Never again.

Prabhupāda: No. Semina will not be produced.

Akṣayānanda: It cannot . . . therefore it cannot go, nothing can go to the brain. Therefore their brain is finished for life. It is the same . . .

Prabhupāda: Anything you do artificially . . .

Akṣayānanda: It is just like making an operation on the brain. Sterilization is therefore the same . . .

Prabhupāda: The Kali-yuga is . . . the material world is for suffering. Kali-yuga is more suffering. But it is not fault of the . . . just like this bābājī has been sterilized. Because the government knows, even the so-called sādhus and bābājīs, they are using their sex.

Akṣayānanda: Bābājī has been . . .?

Prabhupāda: They are now being, forcibly being taken.

Akṣayānanda: Sterilized.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Akṣayānanda: Yes, I know. I heard about it. Because they are having sex.

Prabhupāda: It is open secret. Because so many women go to hospitals, American hospitals.

Akṣayānanda: Oh, I know.

Prabhupāda: The hospital men, they do not take it serious: "It is natural, a man and woman." But it is strictly forbidden according to spiritual life.

Akṣayānanda: By law the doctor has to perform so many operations in his day of practice, medical practice. One doctor came here, he was our member. He said: "I have to go back to practice now. I have so many cases, sterilizations, to perform in this day; otherwise I won't get paid."

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Akṣayānanda: "I have to make so many people sterilization. Otherwise, I will not get paid. I will not be able to live now, because I must perform so many." Large figure. I've forgotten how many. Maybe one dozen in one day. One dozen, fifteen in one day. He must perform, by law.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Akṣayānanda: Terrible. I often think it's like the bail. The bail, they have, with the bail gadi, and they cut. And the bail has no brain. He does anything you want.

Devotee: What's a bail?

Akṣayānanda: The oxen. And similarly the people now . . . (break) There must be a war very soon. It seems that there must be war very soon. War may happen very soon.

Prabhupāda: There will be reaction.

Akṣayānanda: Such a transgression of the laws, it cannot . . . how much further can it go, Prabhupāda? There must be a war very soon. Any day.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I think they cannot ask you for sterilization. You are foreigners.

Akṣayānanda: Ask us for sterilization.

Hari-śauri: They can't sterilize us.

Akṣayānanda: Well, nobody's asked us yet.

Prabhupāda: No, legally can they?

Akṣayānanda: By law, if you have three children.

Hari-śauri: If you become Indian citizen, then.

Akṣayānanda: If you have three children in your family, then by law you must have it.

Prabhupāda: So you have no children. "So let me produce first of all three children."

Akṣayānanda: Yes, right. That's what I thought.

Prabhupāda: This argument. "First of all finish my . . ."

Akṣayānanda: I had two when I was married.

Prabhupāda: That is now . . .

Akṣayānanda: But they are not here. They're not in the country.

Prabhupāda: So, "We are sannyāsīs. We have no children. So why you are coming to us?"

Akṣayānanda: They've never come, fortunately.

Hari-śauri: They can only do that to their own citizens. They can only do that to Indian citizens.

Prabhupāda: Foreigners . . .

Akṣayānanda: So if I become Indian national, if I learn Hindi and become Indian national, then they will approach me?

Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter)

Akṣayānanda: That can never happen.

Harikeśa: I just heard that seventy thousand women and thirty-six thousand men.

Akṣayānanda: Nasbandi, they call it. Nasbandi.

Hari-śauri: That was just in one state.

Harikeśa: In Delhi or U.P. or something.

Prabhupāda: Nas means veins.

Akṣayānanda: Means?

Prabhupāda: Veins, these, veins.

Akṣayānanda: Veins! I didn't know that. Bandi means stop it. Stop the vein so the semina will not go. Terrible.

Harikeśa: You're sure about that?

Akṣayānanda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: They told you that's what they're doing. Stops you producing . . . they cut the tube that produces semina.

Akṣayānanda: I don't know where they do it. Some part of the body.

Hari-śauri: It's somewhere near the testes. They cut the tube. It takes ten minutes. And it stops you producing any more semina.

Akṣayānanda: It's so bad. They give people . . . (break) . . . and eating so much nonsense. So the preaching in India has to be done very, very tactfully.

Prabhupāda: No, just like I was speaking from Bhāgavatam.

Akṣayānanda: Just what you have spoken. But our actions must be very tactful also.

Prabhupāda: If you speak only on the subject matter as it is mentioned in the book, it is already tactful.

Akṣayānanda: Jaya. But if we add something . . .


yasyāṁ śrūyamāṇāyāṁ
kṛṣṇe parama-pūruṣe
bhaktir utpadyate puṁsaḥ
(SB 1.7.7)

Now they are in a position of śoka-moha-bhaya. So you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the best tact. Now it is the time. Now they are put into śoka-moha-bhaya. It is already there going on, śoka-moha-bhaya. But it is now special time for śoka-moha-bhaya. So you have to take it. It may be out of fear, bhaya, they may take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Akṣayānanda: Still, they have to just take, that's all.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ janāḥ sukṛtino 'rjuna ārto (BG 7.16). Ārto. Ārtaḥ means who is afraid of. So this is the position of ārta, śoka-moha-bhaya. Take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But that he can take, provided he is sukṛtina—if there is background. But still, by hearing Hare Kṛṣṇa he becomes sukṛtina.

Akṣayānanda: I think most of the devotees became by fear. I think most of the devotees have become devotees because of fear.

Prabhupāda: Fear must be. If he's a gentleman he must be afraid of this material world. That is very good qualification. If one is afraid of this material existence, it is very good symptom.

Akṣayānanda: Just about every devotee, before coming to you, has thought about suicide.

Prabhupāda: Suicide? Oh.

Akṣayānanda: So many, I know, I have spoken with them. And myself included. So many devotees, before . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, there was no hope. What is the use?

Akṣayānanda: Yes. Just about every devotee, they have thought of suicide.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they commit suicide. I have seen. Fall from the . . .

Hari-śauri: Skyscraper.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Tower.

Akṣayānanda: Some have done.

Prabhupāda: From the bridge.

Hari-śauri: They have to put big wire screens up to stop people from jumping off.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I have seen.

Harikeśa: Berkeley.

Prabhupāda: Berkeley, yes.

Hari-śauri: Everywhere. Sydney has bridges like that. These big towers like Eiffel Tower in Paris, they have big fences along the top so that no one can . . .

Prabhupāda: This practice is there in Vedic system. Not Vedic system . . . (indistinct) . . . fall down. There is technical name. Fall down from the mountain. This is easier than other type of suicide. Because you simply once jump, but as soon as you fall, you forget everything. Suicide itself is very bad. This fall down, serotan it is called.

Akṣayānanda: So one question I wanted to ask you in this connection is that this Vinoba, fasting until death, until cow slaughter is stopped. So if he dies, then he is guilty of murder. Is it correct? And if he's a brāhmaṇa, he is guilty of brahma-hatya. So by this fasting he is committing a greater sin than the actual killing of the cows.

Prabhupāda: You are right.

Akṣayānanda: And what is the gain?

Prabhupāda: And what he'll get it? Does he think that by his dying of starvation this cow-killing will be stopped? That is his foolishness.

Akṣayānanda: He will die, and it will go on.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is his foolishness.

Akṣayānanda: And he does not know where he will go next.

Prabhupāda: Just see, he is supposed to be very big man, and he's such a rascal. He has no sense what he is doing.

Akṣayānanda: Plainly you have described in the Gītā. You have described plainly in the Gītā. No one else has done that. Cinmayananda's, this, that rascal, no one has. No one has explained that. They don't know.

Prabhupāda: No, anyone who is not in our disciplic succession, he's not a human being. Cinmayananda, Vivekananda, this-ānanda, they simply . . . ānanda—there is no ānanda. All nirānanda. What Cinmayananda? He is supposed to be very big sannyāsī. What he has done?

Akṣayānanda: What has he done? He advertised in the paper for young boys.

Prabhupāda: There is one gentleman, Sadajiwatlal in Bombay. You know him?

Akṣayānanda: Sadaji Mahatma?

Prabhupāda: Sadajiwatlal.

Akṣayānanda: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: Chandu proprietor.

Akṣayānanda: I know about him. I know of him.

Prabhupāda: He . . . he is very intelligent. He has said to a friend that Bhaktivedanta Swami sabka muh kala kar diya. (Bhaktivedanta Swami has made everyone feel ashamed of themselves.) Kāla means that he has made all other so-called sannyāsīs, yogīs, black-faced.

Akṣayānanda: (laughs) Jaya. He is intelligent.

Prabhupāda: Bhaktivedanta Swami sabka muh kala kar diya. (Bhaktivedanta Swami has made everyone feel ashamed of themselves.)

Akṣayānanda: It's true. It's true.

Prabhupāda: Now here is a big sannyāsī, Akhandanandan, or Bon Maharaja. They are supposed to be big, big sannyāsī.

Akṣayānanda: I do not know what Akhandanandan does.

Prabhupāda: Anyway . . . (indistinct) . . . and this Anandamaya. Actually, I am not proud, but what they have done in comparison to me?

Akṣayānanda: Yes, they've done nothing.

Prabhupāda: He has said . . . sabka muh kala kar diya, (has made everyone feel ashamed of themselves.)

Akṣayānanda: Mukāla.

Prabhupāda: Kāla. Kāla means lajjita, black face. Everyone should be ashamed. They may be envious on account of their failure, but if you come to the actual valuation, sabka muh kala, (has made everyone feel ashamed of themselves.) That's a fact.

Hari-śauri: Actually, that Bon Mahārāja is very black anyway.

Prabhupāda: He's so black, there is no more black required. (laughter) A black snake. Kala brahmana, pota shudra . . . (Black brahmin, fair śūdra . . .) In Bengal it is said if a brahmin is black, he is dangerous.

Akṣayānanda: If a brāhmin is black?

Prabhupāda: That means he's not pure brāhmin. Brāhmin cannot be black. Just like a European, if he becomes black, that means he has mixture. European and American, if he's black, that means mixture. So brāhmin family, how it has . . . still, family, it must be very fair, śukla. Brāhmin, kṣatriya family must be very beautiful. If he's pure. Kala brahmana, pota shudra, bete musholman, khankir chele, poshya-putro . . . (indistinct) . . . (black brahmin, fair śūdra, dwarf Muslim, prostitute's son, adopted son . . . (indistinct) . . .) It is a slang language. (laughter) Kāla brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa should not be black, and śūdra should not be white. And a Musselman should not be dwarf. Because formerly, real Musselmens were coming from Kabul, Afghanistan. That is called . . . (indistinct) . . . if a Musselman is dwarf, that means he is not real. Khankir chele . . . (Prostitute's son . . .) Prostitute's son, and poṣya-putra, adopted son. They are all of the same class. How this selection? Black brāhmin, white śūdra, dwarf Musselman, and prostitute's son and adopted son. Adopted son, he gets money without any earning and spends like . . . I have seen so many adopted sons.

Hari-śauri: Adopted son, oh.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like our . . . Haṁsadūta's wife, what is name? She has adopted a son.

Hari-śauri: Oh, Himāvatī.

Prabhupāda: Himāvatī. It is not like that. But generally, adopted son means spoiled son.

Akṣayānanda: Spoiled. Spoiled brat.

Prabhupāda: Because he gets money. Adopted . . . one who has got money but no children, he takes some adopted son. So the adopted son thinks that, "I have got so much money," and he has never worked. He is spoiled. I have seen many adopted son in our . . . got lakhs and lakhs of rupees, and in one night he's spoiled everything, simply after woman and wine. I have seen it. There was one gentleman, Narendranath Singh. Very big, palatial building and very rich man. And I have seen him when he was finished. He was friend of big, big person, Raja Maharlal. And one day I saw in Calcutta, in . . . (indistinct) . . . there was raining and he was sitting in a ricksha. And no friend. He had known practically all big men of Calcutta, friend. Nobody is coming. "Well, Narendra, you are sitting. Come on in my car." Nobody. I was . . . (indistinct) . . . and he was drenching, there was heavy rain. And sitting in a . . . and he was keeping Rolls Royce car.

Akṣayānanda: Keeping?

Prabhupāda: Rolls Royce car. When he was rich man.

Akṣayānanda: Sometimes while traveling I've met some very old, rich men lying on their deathbed, dying. I approached them to help us. They will not give a single penny. It is all going to the son, and the son is atheist. In the house there is everywhere Kṛṣṇa's picture. Very difficult. They don't know that Kṛṣṇa is giving them a chance. They die; within days some of them can die. They are lying on the bed, passing stool and urine. So rich. But they do not care to help this movement. So many people like that. We have to become very expert. (end)