760811 - Conversation A - Tehran
Prabhupāda: . . . strongly by chance?
Devotee (1): Yes.
Prabhupāda: How do they support? In other words, they cannot give explanation, and like a foolish man says, "Chance." You cannot give proper explanation how things are happening. Like a foolish rascal: "Chance."
Dayānanda: Because they see according to their intelligence that things are happening according to chance. According to their understanding, sometimes things happen . . .
Prabhupāda: So what is this understanding? The chance?
Dayānanda: In their experience, or in our experience, we see things are happening . . .
Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of the scientists? Things will take place by chance. What is the use of them?
Dayānanda: By chance there may be an accident, or by chance there may be . . .
Prabhupāda: Anyway, things will happen by chance, accident. So why they're bothering about things and taking the credit of becoming scientist?
Dayānanda: It's not completely chance. There are certain laws which they try to find, which act whenever these elements . . .
Prabhupāda: So in other words, that they are not yet conversant with the things, and still they are claiming to be scientist. That is the point. They do not know thoroughly how things are happening, and still they are taking the credit of becoming scientist.
Dayānanda: They have developed a branch of mathematics that deals with chance, things happening with chance.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that mathematics department is now being closed. You know that? Nobody cares to attend that mathematic. People are becoming disinterested with these chance theories. There is one Dr. Henderson, you know? He became doctor in that field. He's not getting job, now he's manufacturing incense.
Dayānanda: Oh, George Henderson?
Prabhupāda: George Henderson. He has no job here. All these theoretical doctors are no longer required by university.
Nava-yauvana: I was reading the other day that they are doing some experiments on Mars. They have twenty-two different theories about this one idea. Just this one little idea, twenty-two different theories.
Prabhupāda: Theory means they are not certain.
Nava-yauvana: The misfortunate thing is that people in general have faith in the scientists.
Prabhupāda: So you have to create people to have faith in Kṛṣṇa. If people are going by faith, so you have to create this faith that Kṛṣṇa, that's all. They can create, you can create. And they criticize our destiny theory, believe in the destiny. They criticize it. So why they'll depend on chance theory? What is the difference, destiny and chance?
Nava-yauvana: Destiny means there is controller.
Nava-yauvana: Destiny means there is a controller.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but they cannot explain what is that controller; therefore they disbelieve. Just like yesterday we were discussing that atheist class, they are by chance there was lusty desires and there was pregnancy and there will be child. So we say: "No. Daiva-netreṇa. These things have been arranged by superior authorities." This is destiny, that what is already arranged by superior authority, that is destiny. You cannot change it. A man is ordered to be hanged by the court justice, you cannot change it. He is to be hanged. And they will say, "By chance he will be hanged."
Jñānagamya: Sometimes something happens to interfere with that. He gets a reprieve from the governor, or the rope breaks, and they only hang him once, like that.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing, but first thing is that if one is ordered to be hanged, he has to be hanged. Destined. But these people, they do not see who has ordered because they do not accept authority. They will say: "It is by chance." They have not seen who has ordered, who is that authority. They cannot explain, therefore they say "chance."
Jñānagamya: They have no science of astrology, so they cannot understand the universe and how it's working.
Prabhupāda: Astrology . . . I don't think they believe in astrology. There is no question of astrology. We practically we see that one man ordered to be hanged by the justice, he has to be hanged. That is destiny. One has not seen who has ordered, but he sees that, "This man is being hanged." He cannot explain; he says: "By chance." So whose explanation is right? The chance explanation or the destiny explanation—which is right?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Actually, logically, I cannot see how there is any chance, not a single. When I was a child I used to give an argument to my friend, and he used to say: "A chance. Everything is chance. It is like a lottery ticket." I said to him, "If you don't buy the lottery ticket and win $50,000, then that is chance. But if you buy the lottery ticket . . ."
Prabhupāda: How it is chance?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: There is no chance, because you bought the lottery ticket, so . . .
Prabhupāda: Your destiny. Then your destiny.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: They miss the order and the controller and the organizer.
Prabhupāda: That is whole purpose—how to defy God. That is their whole plan.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, the mind is attracted to that.
Prabhupāda: No, there are always two classes of men: devatā and demons. Demon class will always say like that, "There is no God. We are everything." Devatā class, they will always believe in. That is the difference, devatā class. This struggle will always be there.
- dvau bhūta-sargau loke
- daivo asura eva ca
- viṣṇu-bhaktaḥ bhaved daivaḥ
- āsuras tad-viparyayaḥ
- (Padma Purāṇa)
There are two classes of men throughout the whole universe. One is called daiva and the other is called asura. The viṣṇu-bhaktaḥ bhaved daivaḥ, those who are devotees of the Lord, they are daiva. And āsuras tad-viparyayaḥ, and those who are not devotees, they are just the opposite number, they are asura. So asura class will always say like that. And there is always fight between the two, even in higher planetary systems. Only Brahmaloka, Satyaloka, there are no more asuras. So asura class will always fight like that, and devatā class will always defy. But for God everyone is equal, because all of them are sons of God. Therefore an attempt is always going on to turn the asuras to become devotees. For this purpose God Himself comes, He sends His representative, how these rascal asuras can be turned into devotees. Otherwise, the asura class is always be there.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: That's the business of the representative.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because God is equal to everyone. He sees that these rascal asuras are misguided, so He sends His representative, He comes Himself, there is śāstras, guidance, and everything. The whole propaganda is how these rascal asuras can be turned into devatā. This is equality in the eyes of God. Very simple thing. Just like government puts a person into prison house. The idea is to correct him. Not that government is enemy of a class of men, they are put into the prison house. Government is equal. But there is department of punishing this . . . (aside) Don't show . . . (indistinct) . . . Government is equal to everyone, but there is the department of reformation which is called jail department. He's punished so that he may come to his senses that, "I have done wrong." But unfortunately there are stubborn criminals, they are not corrected. They go and again come, go and again come. One term finished; another term. One term finished . . . that is transmigration. One term finished, punishment, and another term begins. He creates another term. So that is daiva netreṇa. That is superior arrangement. Now this rascal has finished his human life, now again he has committed so many sins, let him become a dog. Again comes to the human form of life; again one chance is given. This not good. But he does not accept, so again he becomes a tree—stand up for ten thousand years. Nothing is a chance. Everything is under supreme control. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). But he is a rascal. He simply defies and suffers. One man is being slapped with shoes, so he is shameless, he says: "Oh, you have beaten me with shoes. All right, if you touch my wife, I'll sue you." Then the wife is beaten with shoes, then he says: "Oh, you have beaten my wife. All right, touch my son, I will sue you." In this way every member is being beaten with shoes, and he is simply challenging that, "I'll sue, I'll sue." This is going on. He's punished one after another, but he is so shameless that still he defies the authority. That is called asura. They're not very intelligent. "Next time I will see it. Wait millions of years, I shall see." This is going on. So we have to deal with asuras. This is the position.
Devotee: That's why it's so difficult.
Devotee: That's why it's so difficult.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: That is a devotee's business.
Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. That is devotee. Because God wants it that these rascals may be turned into sane man. That is God's plan. Otherwise why does He comes? Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7). Huh? Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8)—two class, sādhu and duṣkṛtinaḥ. So to punish these duṣkṛtinaḥ, that is reformation. That is not God's envy, reformation. As the father gives slap to rogue child, that is also kindness, so these two processes are going on, paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. Dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya. Then what is that dharma? Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). That is dharma. So to deal with the asuras is not so easy job, but we have to do that. You should not be discouraged.
So asuras may be reformed or not be reformed, but because you are trying this job on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, He will recognize you. Your service will be recognized. Not that you attempted, therefore you must be successful. You may be unsuccessful. It doesn't matter. But you have tried your best, and that will be recognized.
Prabhupāda: And these asuras are trying to become happy by material advancement of knowledge. They're not happy—struggling—but this is called will-o'-the-wisp, phantasmagoria. Actually, they are not happy, they cannot be happy, but they are trying. How they can be happy? Nature is there.
Nava-yauvana: They are falsely proud of their achievements.
Prabhupāda: That is asura. That is, that means asura. They have already tried the moon excursion, failure—again do it. This will be a failure—again do it. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30), repeatedly chewing the chewed. That is their business. One excursion—failure. It is already chewed. Whatever possibility finished—again chewing, "Let me see if there is any juice." Because they have no other business. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām. Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisraṁ punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām. Matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā. They are already discussed.
- matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā
- mitho 'bhipadyeta gṛha-vratānām
- adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisraṁ
- punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām
- (SB 7.5.30)
This is their business. Failure; again. Failure; again. One war started, all the city bombarded, finished—again start, again reconstruct. And when the reconstruct finished, again war. Again bomb it, again reconstruct.
Jñānagamya: Sometimes boys come here and they are involved in impersonal meditation. They want liberation . . .
Prabhupāda: Well, that is their business. Let them do. You try to understand the position. Meditation is also something. Asuras, they do not take to meditation. Meditation is something beginning to the path of devatā. Dhyānāvasthita. If they are actually serious, then they can profit. Meditation is not always bad, if they are properly guided. But that is not the business of the asuras. They say: "On whom I shall meditate?" The asuras do not do that.
Devotee: They have special meditation for asuras these days.
Devotee: They have special classes in meditation for asuras. They give them some meaningless word to meditate upon.
Prabhupāda: So what is the purpose of this meditation?
Devotee: To make . . . to relax the mind.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that is another thing. Material. That is that Transcendental Meditation.
Jñānagamya: How can we convince them?
Prabhupāda: Hmm? How can you convince? They are asuras.
Jñānagamya: No, those who doing some meditation that are Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . .
Prabhupāda: No, they are also asuras. They do not know what is the meaning of meditation. That is psychology; it is not meditation. Or some medical treatment. Meditation is different, real meditation.
Devotee: What is . . . what is real meditation?
Prabhupāda: Real meditation is to find out the Supersoul within the core of the heart. That is real meditation. God is situated in everyone's heart, so the yogīs, they try to find out Supersoul within the heart. That is real yogī. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginam (SB 12.13.1). This is real yogī, trying to contact the Supersoul. They are searching after the God in His all-pervading feature. But, ah, some of them, they want to become one. That is asuric. One with God, that is asuric. Because they are being defeated by God, so therefore they want to become God to stop this defeat. That is asuric. Therefore they will never be able to be, but they are trying for it.
Jñānagamya: It is the highest blasphemy.
Jñānagamya: It is the highest blasphemy, isn't it? If one says: "I am God."
Prabhupāda: No, highest ignorance, highest rascaldom. (laughter) Yes. How one can become God? If one can become God, that means the such-and-such, he was God. Then how he has become dog? That is another rascaldom, ambition.
Jñānagamya: A devotee is only supposed to want service, and sometimes he very much wants to be liberated to be finished with all this difficulty, isn't it?
Jñānagamya: Is it very contaminating?
Prabhupāda: Not contaminating, not in the highest stage. That is not contaminating. If the devotee wants liberation, then they're in the lower stage. Actually, a devotee, he is already liberated. Why he shall aspire after liberation?
Jñānagamya: Pure devotee's liberated.
Prabhupāda: Therefore when he's purified, he's already liberated. There is no question of his aspiring after liberation. He's already liberated. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26).
Ātreya Ṛṣi: If the devotee's purified, he's convinced that if he becomes purified he will be free.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The whole devotional process is purificatory process. The more he is purified, he becomes high-class devotee. But the process is the path of liberation. Just like mango. The green mango, this green mango will be ripe mango. The same mango. You cannot say that the ripe mango is different from the green mango. It is a process. By the process the same green mango becomes yellow; then it is perfect.
(long pause; devotees chant japa in background)
Prabhupāda: What is that point, there are thirty theories or something, about this Mars planet?
Devotee: Twenty-two theories.
Prabhupāda: You just told?
Devotee: They are trying to understand the geology of the planet and how the surface of the planet was formed, and what . . .
Prabhupāda: They have different . . . (break)
Nava-yauvana: They are so foolish that they say that these experiments are very wonderful. They are very proud of these experiments . . .
Prabhupāda: Hmm? Because they do not know.
Nava-yauvana: Yes, the result is . . .
Prabhupāda: Wonderful. Do not know. Wonderfully do not know. The platform is, "Do not know"; it is still wonderful. Wonderful foolish, like that. The platform remains "Do not know," but still it is wonderful.
Jñānagamya: Their most intelligent philosophers and thinkers, they always say the more we know . . .
Jñānagamya: Their most intelligent philosophers and thinkers, they say that the more that we know, the more that we understand that we do not know . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: And that is wonderful. The more they become convinced that, "I do not know," that is wonderful. When they'll know?
Devotee: And then they make these statements that, "The earth is this old . . ." They make statements like "The earth is this many years," without any factual basis.
Prabhupāda: They are wonderful rascals. Just see. Shameless. Wonderful shameless rascals. They say that the moon planet is desert, vacant, no living entities. And we say that it is the planet for the pious men to live there very opulently for ten thousand . . . of these two classes of knowledge, which is better? We have got some evidence in the śāstra, but they have no evidence—they are simply speculating. Now this moon . . . er, Mars, they'll find the same result. Then how long they will go on like this?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: As long as the society is godless . . .
Ātreya Ṛṣi: As long as the society's godless, then . . .
Prabhupāda: So how long they will present the same theory over and over again? They're already putting the same thing. They have concluded in the moon there is rocks and sand, nobody can live. The same thing they are saying in a different way, and at the end they will have to say like that. Because they have no knowledge, it is simply theoretical. And they have no other alternative than to say the same thing again and again. What they will say?
Jñānagamya: They say on Mars there can be life because the conditions are a little bit like earth.
Prabhupāda: Suppose there is life, then what you gain?
Devotee: They say that our knowledge now is not mere theoretical because now we have gone there.
Prabhupāda: But what profit you have gained? You have spent some millions of dollars, that's all.
Devotee: More theories.
Devotee: The government encourages this spending of money while the citizens are unhappy and cannot be safe in their own city.
Prabhupāda: Yes, you must have such government. Dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. They will snatch your money by force. You cannot say anything. That is punishment. Godless civilization, that is punishment, that your own government will snatch, by force, take away all your hard labor accumulation, by taxation. That is written in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. You cannot fight. You will be harassed in so many ways you will become mad. Ācchinna-dāra-draviṇā yāsyanti giri-kānanam (SB 12.2.8). Hopelessly they will leave hearth and home and go to the forest. This godless civilization will be punished like that. That day is coming like that. Nobody will be peaceful. They will be mad. Just like when a man becomes mad, he commits suicide, he blows off his head. This will be done. There will be no rain—this is one punishment—and scarcity of food and heavy taxation by government. They are all mentioned. What more suffering you want? But still they are advancing, scientists.
Devotee: One of the most practical things that people give credit to the scientists for is that they have invented these insecticides, these things that kill insects. But now they find that after they spray, after a few generations, the insects become immune to this, and they become stronger.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The antibiotics medicine, at a certain stage it does not work. If too much antibiotic injection is given, then the . . . (indistinct) . . . does not work.
Jñānagamya: It is like that with this syphilis disease, this venereal disease. Now they cannot kill certain strains of it. They cannot do anything about it. It becomes immune to penicillin. That is a big disease in United States. A big disease.
Prabhupāda: This is always, Western disease. It is a Western disease. Vairanga-roga. In the Āyur-veda it is called vairanga-roga. Fairanga, farangi, farangi. The Westerners are called farangi, the vairanga-roga. So this syphilis disease was imported in India by these Europeans. Before, it was not there. There is a medicine called . . . (indistinct) . . . injection. Fifty years ago it was one rupee, four annas, price. But during the wartime the same medicine was selling at nineteen. In black market.
Jñānagamya: That is their nature—everyone wants to exploit.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. I have seen it, one rupee, four annas, the price goes nineteen.
Jñānagamya: There is a story about a man who made some perfect cloth that would never get dirty, never get torn. So he made a suit out of it, and he was trying to market it. So he went to the capitalists, "Now I have made some perfect cloth." And they did not like it because they could not sell more cloth after they sold this. No one would want anything else. And the workers, they did not like it either, because they would lose their jobs. No one would buy this cloth.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Jñānagamya: They tried to kill him.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Devotee: He's telling a story.
Prabhupāda: A story.
Jñānagamya: The story is about perfect cloth.
Devotee: Perfect cloth.
Jñānagamya: So everyone was trying to kill him because he had this perfect cloth and it would put everybody out of business, because their business was based on exploitation, on the things wearing out, getting old, having to be renewed.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. So we shall go now. This sun . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa.
(devotees offer obeisances) (end)