760809 - Conversation A - Tehran
Prabhupāda: If you find out sand and rocks, you must also . . . (indistinct) . . . there was water. And from water, vegetation comes. From vegetation, other life comes. What we speak, we don't speak unscientifically. It is scientific. How this rascal says all of a sudden in the sky there is rock? Where from the rock came?
Hari-śauri: Well, they say originally from gas.
Prabhupāda: So gas . . . without water, there cannot be gas.
Hari-śauri: Gas, and then it liquifies and then it solidifies.
Prabhupāda: Liquid means water. So as soon as there is water, there is vegetation. You'll find everywhere. Water dries up, vegetable comes.
Parivrājakācārya: Today they are exploring Mars, and they are saying that they're finding water on Mars.
Prabhupāda: Water's there. Everything must be there. Pañca-bhūta, mahā-bhūta. Ether, then fire, then water, then land. Everything is described in the Bhāgavatam. They cannot speak nonsense. They can speak nonsense through the other literatures, but we cannot speak. Without water, how there is possibility of sand? Sand means it is salt.
Parivrājakācārya: If you go out here, there is a big desert.
Prabhupāda: That means there was water.
Parivrājakācārya: Yes, and under the desert always. I took a trip a few weeks ago, all over Iran, through the deserts, to villages, and always just forty feet, forty meters under the desert, lots of water. They would bring the water up and then there would be green, they would grow vegetables. So even here there's water.
Prabhupāda: The water, sea, as it becomes solidified, the outer surface, by sunshine they become, it is called sodium silicate. Salt is sodium chloride. So from sodium chloride, the sodium silicate. So cover of the sea they can solidify by the sodium silicate. But underneath there is water. Just like our this skin, bone, coming from where? We are eating liquid and . . . or some vegetables or some whatever, they are becoming liquidified. And first transformation is blood. Blood is liquid, and from blood everything is coming. The muscle is coming, the bone is coming. The more the liquid portion becomes solidified by air, gas, then these things coming. The formation of this body beginning the liquid semina, liquid ovum, mix together. From liquid. Then they form pea like solid thing, from that liquid. And then the body forms. Where from the solid body forms? The man injects liquid. Liquid inject, everything is coming. So where from the solid body comes? By chemical composition the body forms, from liquid to solid. So as soon as you see some solid thing, you must know that it has come from liquid.
Parivrājakācārya: It got its form from liquid. The form, it had to come from liquid somehow.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. Yes, liquid. The discharge of semina is liquid. It is not solid. So how this body comes? You cannot bluff that a solid has come all of a sudden. There was liquid, or there is liquid.
Hari-śauri: Well, they'll accept that there was liquid.
Prabhupāda: Yes, then there must have been vegetable. As soon as there is liquid there is vegetation.
Hari-śauri: Their argument is that because there's no atmosphere, then there's no vegetation.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that is . . . that is another bogus. The atmosphere is the same everywhere. Little more. Just like in . . . (break) . . . say in the sun planet there is living entity, that is fire. So what do you mean by atmosphere, if even in fire there is life? Dahati pāvakaḥ. Bhagavad-gītā. Nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ (BG 2.23). Pāvakaḥ means fire. Does not burn the soul. So where there is fire only, he develops fiery body. Not that by the fire it is finished. Nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ. Where there is gas, air, nainam . . . find out this verse. Acchedyo' yam adāhyo' yam.
Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā, yes. You do not read even. You should have reference immediately. (devotees search for verse)
Parivrājakācārya: Even here on the earth, even ice in the South Pole of the earth, they find much life inside the ice.
Prabhupāda: Just see. Here inside the ice there are life.
Parivrājakācārya: They are very surprised. They said, "How is this happening?"
Prabhupāda: Yes. Life is everywhere. This bogus theory there is no life, the atmosphere is different, it is bogus, simply bogus. Because spirit soul is never affected by any material atmosphere. That is the distinction between matter and spirit. It has nothing to do with 19:00 19:01 material atmosphere. They don't have knowledge, they are baffled. And those who have no knowledge, they are accepting.
- nainaṁ chindanti śastrāṇi
- nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ
- na cainaṁ kledayanty āpo
- na śoṣayati mārutaḥ
- (BG 2.23)
"The soul can never be cut into pieces by any weapon, nor can he be burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind."
Prabhupāda: So where is question of atmosphere influence? Suppose there is rock and sand and always hot weather. That does not mean there cannot be any life. The life is never affected by all these things. Make propaganda about this knowledge. People will understand that Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not joking, it is something serious. That boy was saying that these scientist, they know me. What is this boy's name, this boy said about the so-called astronomer, scientist? Who was this boy?
Pradyumna: Who came last night?
Hari-śauri: One of our boys, American boy, that tall boy.
Pradyumna: Here in this temple?
Hari-śauri: Yes. Jñānagamya. He used to work with some science research as well. (indistinct comments about Jñānagamya)
Parivrājakācārya: The scientists are like all materialists. They think if we have not seen it . . .
Prabhupāda: (coughing heavily) You have to see from the book. Seeing from the book is real seeing. What you can see with these blunt eyes? I have seen in these navigators. They see in the different plans and books, and they direct their ship or airplane accordingly. How can he see where we are going?
Hari-śauri: Just like they land an aeroplane.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They have got all plans and direction, and altitude, latitude and everything, which direction is going on in front of the pilot. So everything is there. In what position the plane is there, how high it is and how low it will be, where it is—everything. On that direction they can fly. Otherwise, what they can see with the eyes? Utmost ten miles, and it is running at six hundred miles? What ten miles will do them? So śāstra-cakṣuṣā. Authoritative literature should be the eyes, not these blunt eyes. What is the value of these eyes? Now here is authority: nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ. You should go to the school, colleges, and from Bhagavad-gītā give them real knowledge. The whole world is in darkness, and these rascals are guiding them.
Prabhupāda: You have tasted the barā? Nim barā?
Pradyumna: This morning.
Prabhupāda: Huh? Did you like it?
Parivrājakācārya: It tasted very healthy.
Prabhupāda: Healthy? What is that?
Parivrājakācārya: It tasted like it was good for me.
Hari-śauri: That means it didn't taste very nice, but we accepted it was good.
Parivrājakācārya: I know by my intelligence that it is good to keep eating, even though my tongue was saying "Stop."
Prabhupāda: No, this neem is good. They say that if you eat at least two leaves of neem daily, you'll never lose your appetite. Appetite will be continuing.
Hari-śauri: Who can eat two leaves of neem? (laughing)
Prabhupāda: No, if you practice, it is not impossible.
Pradyumna: I ate them one time. Remember in Bombay, I thought I had worms? You told me to eat nim?
Prabhupāda: Effective? What happened?
Pradyumna: Well, I didn't notice anything happened, but it was very, very bitter, so bitter.
Prabhupāda: So that worms cured or not?
Pradyumna: I don't know. Sometimes I think I have worms.
Prabhupāda: You should not eat sweet.
Parivrājakācārya: You cannot get neem in Iran. I have never seen a neem tree in Iran.
Prabhupāda: No tree, simply desert. Where is tree? All desert. All this Middle East, desert. So they can be allowed to eat meat. Otherwise, how for they'll eat? Everyone must eat something. So if there is no vegetation, if there is no sufficient, they can be allowed.
Parivrājakācārya: I visited some of these small villages in the south of Iran, and the tents of nomads who kept sheep, that was their life. They had a tent and they had hundreds of sheep, and they would move the tent every month. They would take the tent, for one month they would live here, and next month they would move.
Prabhupāda: Why they're changing?
Parivrājakācārya: Because they're desert people. The sheep eat all the little green, and then they have to move on.
Pradyumna: Same thing as the Bible. When the sheep eat up all the green in that place, then they have to go to another place with their sheep. In the Bible the same thing. All that Abraham, Joseph . . .
Prabhupāda: Bible was produced here, in this desert land. Jerusalem is not far away. Mecca, Medina . . . (indistinct) . . . Arabia.
Parivrājakācārya: All they had to eat was the milk of sheep and goats, and sometimes when they would camp near a farm they would have vegetables. Sometimes. And then the meat of the sheep.
Prabhupāda: And these dates. In the desert the date tree grows. Sometimes they eat camel also. Is it not?
Parivrājakācārya: Yes. But I don't think if they . . .
Prabhupāda: They cannot be strictly vegetarian; it is not possible.
Parivrājakācārya: It is difficult.
Prabhupāda: But even they eat meat, they can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. There is no harm.
Parivrājakācārya: But now they are farming in the desert. The Iranian government has started farms. They are irrigating the land with water, and when they put water on the desert they get all kinds of vegetables and grains very easily. So if they do that then they can become vegetarian, they have no excuse. The excuse of the people is that, "We have to eat meat."
Prabhupāda: They can have rains from the sky by chanting. The rain will fall from the sky. Who can check it? (coughs heavily) Kṛṣṇa gives the water from the sky. Yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ (BG 3.14).
Parivrājakācārya: They say in their books that this area used to be all forest with many, many trees about two to three thousand years ago. It was a very thick forest. But since then it has become desert; the rain has stopped since then.
Prabhupāda: Because the yajña stopped.
Pradyumna: That Sahara Desert used to be all trees, very fertile. Sahara Desert in Africa, it is the biggest desert in the world. Nothing . . .
Prabhupāda: Sahara, Sahara.
Pradyumna: Sahara Desert. It used to be very rich thousands of years ago, but then became desert.
Hari-śauri: It's supposed to increase its size by ten miles every year.
Pradyumna: Desert growth. Formerly, that city Carthage used to be there. Carthage was fighting Rome. Carthage was very rich, all farms.
Prabhupāda: Cartharian civilization was very big civilization. The thing is that the more people become sinful, they'll be disturbed by this natural atmosphere. Therefore I'm surprised that moon planet is inhabited by pious inhabitants, how there can be desert?
Pradyumna: But does moon planet have something to do with pitṛs? Does the Pitṛ . . . Pitṛloka is different?
Pradyumna: Pitā, Pitṛ?
Prabhupāda: No, Pitṛloka is different. That is downwards.
Hari-śauri: Does that pitṛ, does that refer to the original progenitors?
Pradyumna: No, forefathers.
Prabhupāda: Latest development they are finding water in Mars?
Parivrājakācārya: They find . . . it is very difficult for them, because they are using their eyes and other instruments. They have found places where there were rivers, and they are finding ice and other things. So I don't know the latest developments. It is obvious to them there is life, different kinds of life.
Hari-śauri: The way of testing for life . . .
Prabhupāda: Why you are spoiling your nails? It may come to a boil, and then you'll understand. It is very dangerous habit. If there is little . . . (indistinct) . . . then it will become a boil.
Pradyumna: Jñānagamya said that on Mars they found something like a crater with a house. Looked like a . . . or a bombed-out thing. This Jñānagamya was working with a . . . he works with some information service, U.S. Information Service. So he was in charge of designing something here for Fourth of July, some program. So he got this information from this U.S. Information Service which generally . . . sometimes it isn't made public. It's just in their U.S. service. They'd seen some kind of a crater with . . .
Parivrājakācārya: Roads in it as well.
Pradyumna: Yes, something with roads in it or something, they'd seen
Hari-śauri: The way they test for life is they take some soil and they mix certain things with it, and then they wait and see if there is some life development from that.
Prabhupāda: That is nonsense.
Hari-śauri: Yes. They mix ammonia and . . .
Prabhupāda: Same chemical theory. Why do they not in the end mix something and see if life is coming? They are all rascals, speaking one after another.
Hari-śauri: That's their whole thing, that if . . .
Prabhupāda: If by mixing something they can bring life, why not in the egg?
Hari-śauri: Yes, they can't even do it here, where there's so much life.
Prabhupāda: Simply for . . . but you rascals, you cannot understand how they are speaking rascaldom.
Hari-śauri: No, I can see now. I've been with you so long I can understand now.
Parivrājakācārya: They have sent this one ship to Mars at a cost of one billion dollars. They are making these tests.
Hari-śauri: Now they've got a second one going around as well. That's Viking 1 that's on there now, and they have another one, Viking 2, that's designed to orbit.
Pradyumna: Vikings were names of pirates. Viking means pirates. Pirate's a thief. Vikings, they used to be thieves. They've named their spaceship Viking. (laughs) (break)
Prabhupāda: . . . main idea going to the other planets? Colonization, or what?
Pradyumna: One thing, they say, is security, that America and Russia are fighting. So it was a race to get to the moon because they think that from other planets that they can control conditions on the earth. From another planet they can control weather or they can control different things.
Prabhupāda: Just see how bogus.
Pradyumna: That is one thing they say, they must get to the moon first, for security.
Prabhupāda: That is now failure. Now they'll do it from Mars.
Hari-śauri: Not so much from there for security. It's just . . .
Parivrājakācārya: Their pride. One country, just like children playing, one can say: "I can fly higher than you," and so "We can go to the moon before you can." For no reason than just to show they can do it.
Hari-śauri: It's an excuse to spend money. It's for fun.
Prabhupāda: They cannot settle up their misunderstanding here. By going to the moon planet, they'll do it.
Hari-śauri: That's one thing that they said they were going to do, actually. They had some Russian astronauts and some American astronauts, and they had them meet in space, and then they joined their spaceships together, and then they had a meal together and did some experiments, and then they left again. So that was very much acclaimed as bringing the two nations closer together.
Prabhupāda: We are afraid of these two classes of rascals. "Afraid of" means we don't want their association. It is very dangerous.
Pradyumna: You said in the Bhāgavatam, just now, that we are afraid of the materialistic men.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Personally I feel, I have several times told. For a devotee to live with nondevotees is so obnoxious and troublesome, it is sometimes mentioned, better to remain within a cage surrounded by fire, and still, don't remain with nondevotees. You prefer to live within a cage surrounded by fire. That living is preferable than to live with this nondevotee class.
Hari-śauri: A lot of the devotees had that experience living with their parents before they joined the movement. It was so hellish they had to get out. Then they, some way or other, met . . .
- tāṅdera caraṇa-sebi-bhakta-sane bās
- janame janame hoy ei abhilāṣ
- (Hari Haraye Namaḥ, 7)
Bhakta-sane bās, that is the essential part of progressing.
Prabhupāda: Dayānanda's daughter came, in my lavatory.
Hari-śauri: When you were in?
Prabhupāda: Yes, I was going . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Generally, this barā are made with paṭola leaves, paṭola leaves mashed and mixed with this dahī.
Hari-śauri: Is that just as healthy as neem leaves? Paṭola leaves? Just the same.
Prabhupāda: It is better. (break) . . . the influence of the moon planet, the vegetation grows. Do they accept, the modern botanists, influence of moon planet?
Parivrājakācārya: All the farmers, they . . .
Prabhupāda: They do believe?
Parivrājakācārya: They believe that. They plant certain seeds according to the moon.
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Pradyumna: Even in the West they only plant certain things on the waxing moon, not on the waning moon. On śukla-pakṣa.
Prabhupāda: And moon is vacant. By the influence of moon, other vegetation growing, and it cannot grow itself.
Hari-śauri: They admit that the moon rays have some kind of potency. They know that.
Prabhupāda: No, it is stated in the Bhāgavatam.
Pradyumna: In the Jyotiṣa it has . . . it controls liquids. And I think even in hospitals here, near Pūrṇimā, where some of the times they don't like to do the operations because there will be more . . . the blood will run more. Something, they have some . . . someone had told me. The tides are also going according to the moon. The rivers are running according to the moon. In the Ganges, one time we went, swimming in Calcutta . . .
Prabhupāda: The ebb tide, flow tide, according to the moon.
Pradyumna: Something like that. One day the Ganges was very peaceful, and then we went again and it was rushing. If you went in you would just be carried away. You could only . . . (break)
Prabhupāda: You can do it here. (referring to massage)
Hari-śauri: You don't want to go outside today?
Prabhupāda: Sunshine is bright. (end)