760808 - Conversation - Tehran

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Go-previous.pngConversations by Date, 1976
His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



760808R1-TEHRAN - August 08, 1976 - 135:14 Minutes



Ātreya Ṛṣi: If there are planets, Śrīla Prabhupāda, like the sun planet, where . . .

Prabhupāda: We get information from the śāstra, every planet is full of life.

Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes, that there is life in um, some planets.

Prabhupāda: Jana-kīrṇa, this very word is used, jana-kīrṇa, "congested with life." And we have got description, this loka, this loka, this loka is fighting sometimes with other loka, or that . . . everything is description there. There is milk ocean, there is this ocean, that ocean, varieties of. So if we have to take these rascals' version—they're simply rogues—then the whole śāstra becomes false.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: The point in the śāstra is that every . . .

Prabhupāda: And they will advertise that these description in the śāstras, they are all mythology. Of course, this kind of bluffing cannot go, because suppose this Mars expedition becomes a failure, like that, the same . . . it will be failure. So next time, if they propose, I think people will be hesitant to go. Simply bringing people rocks and sands, without any utility, after spending so much money. How long they can repeat this, "Yes, we went to this planet, rocks. We went to this—rocks." So we see variety. If you . . . the so many luminaries, simply rocks and sands? The moon is full of rocks, and it's so illuminating? Whole universe is illuminated so nice, moonshine. So many stars illuminating, and they're rocks and sand? We have to believe it?

Jñānagamya: They are saying there is life on Mars. They are seeing microbes, small little living entities. They are detecting these with their machines. So they are seeing, there is some life.

Prabhupāda: Microbes?

Jñānagamya: Microbe, you know, like microscopic . . .

Prabhupāda: Why they can see only microbes, not a fully grown-up human being?

Jñānagamya: No, they are detecting through gas. They feed the microbes, and then microbes give off evacuation . . .

Prabhupāda: How they can see? Suppose you see from a distant place, this planet. So how you can see within water? You can take photograph of the water, but how you can take photograph within the water? So what is the value of their taking photograph? Does the photograph takes the picture within the water?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: No.

Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of such photograph?

Jñānagamya: But they are not detecting with photographs, they are detecting with chemicals.

Prabhupāda: What . . . (indistinct) . . . chemical?

Jñānagamya: They say the chemicals are giving off gases when they are feeding the earth. They take the ground from Mars . . .

Prabhupāda: Just see so many bogus words they manufacture to make believe. Because they are scientist, they'll talk all big, big words which we cannot understand. So you cannot argue. (talks gibberish) Like that. By common sense question, that they are simply finding out rocks and sand, and again they are saying somebody has bombed. The first . . . (coughing) If there is bomb, then there is fight; so if there is fight, there must be human being.

Harikeśa: He was the one that told me about that, about the canyon and the bombed-out place.

Jñānagamya: Yes, I was working for USIS, US Information Service, and I had a commission to paint a large picture of this Mars landing ship, and they had information coming back that they were finding a long blockhouse with a big crater in the center, like a building that had been bombed. Fourteen kilometer crater. They had a picture like that. It appeared to be a building. But they are all cheaters. I used to live in Florida where they send up these . . . they are all drunkards. They drink alcohol, very unserious.

Prabhupāda: Oh, then they can manufacture. All drunkards, they are in charge of this fighting.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: So Śrīla Prabhupāda, if there are some visitors, can they come up?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Will we have readings, or would you like to talk with them?

Prabhupāda: Let them come, we shall see. My point is, why they do not see any other spot? Only these spots are visible, where there are rocks. They say Howrah station is closed. No sane man will believe that, that Howrah station is closed.

Jñānagamya: They do not want to upset the illusion that they are God, that they are the only ones in the universe. So if they find out there is life on another planet, they will not like it. If there is higher life somewhere else, they will not like that. They are always in competition.

Prabhupāda: And all the higher lives are in Europe and America. Especially in America, eh? That is their mania. They do not like that there may be higher lives, you said. They like it that there may not be any higher life. That is their preconception.

Jñānagamya: Yes. This is the highest here, cannot be any higher. They will not accept.

Prabhupāda: Just see how much biased they are.

Jñānagamya: They cannot accept another philosophy. They will not accept philosophy of Bhagavad-gītā because it is from another country. They do not like that.

Prabhupāda: Ah, now you can see their attitude.

Jñānagamya: So it is very good. On the abridged Bhagavad-gītā we have Americans, Emerson and Thoreau, saying this is a wonderful book. That is very good, that is very impressive to Americans. They will accept if some great Americans have said.

Prabhupāda: That was my policy from the very beginning, that if the Americans accept, then my mission will be successful. And that is being done gradually, and I am insisting that preach in America vigorously. If America accept, then whole world will accept. That's a fact. Anywhere, although America may be fallen, the ideal is American, everywhere. Because they have got money. Kali-yuga means money. If you have got money, then you have got culture, you have got education, you have got everything. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Formerly, they were attached, family, aristocracy, culture, education. Nowadays there is no such thing. Get money and you get everything. It is not? Somehow or other, if you have got control over money then you have got everything. Bring that black Bhāgavata. What is that sound coming? There is goat?

Parivrājakācārya: I think a lamb, sheep.

Prabhupāda: Lamb.

Parivrājakācārya: Yes.

Prabhupāda: They keep lambs for . . .?

Parivrājakācārya: For sacrificing.

Prabhupāda: They sacrifice at home?

Parivrājakācārya: The Koran says that you should sacrifice the animal at home, with his head pointing toward Mecca.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Parivrājakācārya: With the head of the animal towards Mecca.

Prabhupāda: Mecca, oh.

Parivrājakācārya: And you let the blood of the animal flow toward Mecca, and then you can eat an animal. So they keep many sheep here just for that purpose.

Prabhupāda: Oh. So at least they do not recommend to purchase from the slaughterhouse. That is also good.

Jñānagamya: But they have slaughterhouse.

Parivrājakācārya: But the Koran restricts meat-eating.

Prabhupāda: It is restriction.

Parivrājakācārya: Yes. So this is what we explain—we say if it is good, then why is it restricted?

Prabhupāda: That is good explanation. What do they say?

Parivrājakācārya: They say, well, Muhammad did it.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But this is restriction. There is light in the veranda?

Jñānagamya: Yes, there is light. Yes.

Prabhupāda: So let us go so that you can sit comfortably. You can take this little pillow.

Parivrājakācārya: Would you like a glass of water, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That janma-acarana, that Twelfth Canto, Third Chapter. I shall like to sit down . . . (indistinct)

Parivrājakācārya: Is that cushion all right?

Prabhupāda: Now in the beginning . . .

Pradyumna: The beginning of Third Chapter?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Pradyumna: The Third Chapter begins, dṛṣṭvātmani jaye vyagrān. That's Third Chapter.

Prabhupāda: Second Chapter.

Pradyumna: Second Chapter, tataś cānu-dinaṁ dharmaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Pradyumna: It says carma? Cara?

Prabhupāda: Dharmaḥ cara.

Pradyumna: Oh.

Prabhupāda: Now you begin that.

Pradyumna:

tataś cānu-dinaṁ dharmaḥ
satyaṁ śaucaṁ kṣamā dayā
kālena balinā rājan
naṅkṣyaty āyur balaṁ smṛtiḥ
(SB 12.2.1)
vittam eva kalau . . .
(SB 12.2.2)

Prabhupāda: Vittam eva, that's it. Vittam eva?

Pradyumna: Vittam eva kalau nṛṇāṁ janmācāra-guṇodayaḥ

Prabhupāda: Ah. Vittam means money. So if you have got money, then you are coming from high family. There is no consideration of Brahmin, kṣatriya. If you have got money, then you are everything. Vittam eva hi?

Pradyumna: Vittam eva kalau nṛṇāṁ janmācāra-guṇodayaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Ah. Janmācāra-guṇodayaḥ. That is practical, we see. If you have got money, then people will come to you, "Oh, you are so learned, you are so qualified." Just like George, or John Lennon. What qualification they have got? But people will go there and take them as very highly learned and scholar and everything. The press reporters take their opinion. But what is their qualification? The qualification, by selling some records they have got money, that's all. What is that qualification? Now of course, they are coming to—George at least—coming to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise, from qualification point of view, they are not learned, educated in university, or they have got any spiritual asset, born Brahmin family, nothing. Simply money. We also go and flatter them to get some money. (laughs) So this is Kali-yuga. Vittam eva. If you have got money, then you have got everything. Therefore people are after so much money, after money. Vittam eva, hmm? Read that?

Pradyumna:

vittam eva kalau nṛṇāṁ
janmācāra-guṇodayaḥ
dharma-nyāya-vyavasthāyāṁ
kāraṇaṁ balam eva hi
(SB 12.2.2)

Prabhupāda: dharma-nyāya. In India we have seen that you bribe the brāhmaṇas and they'll give decision in your favor. And it is experienced by everyone. In the law court you bribe even the high-court judge, he'll give judgment in your . . . that is proven. One big judge—not now, at least fifty years ago, or more than that—his business was to take bribe, high-court judge, very learned judge. He was asked. He'll give judgement if you give him ten thousand rupees. So other brother high-court judges, they knew it. So in one case he was just arranging for this, and the chief justice called him that, "You immediately resign and go home, otherwise this arrangement you have made, it will be exposed." So he had no other alternative. He immediately resigned, and on some plea like "My heart is palpitating," so in this way he left the court, and then he was never allowed again. And when his friends asked him that "Why you are doing this?" so he said, "What can I do? I have got at least ten thousand rupees' expenditure per month and I get only four thousand." That was his . . . he was very able lawyer. By private practice he was earning more, but this practice . . . and nowadays it has come to, at least in India, anywhere you go, and bribe, and you get a favorable decision. (guests arrive) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we shall be sitting inside or here?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Wherever you like, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: I can like anywhere.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: This is good, this is good.

Prabhupāda: But these gentlemen?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: They will be . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Sit down. So let them come near; our men may go there. You can sit down. Let them come forward. (discussion as guests change places) Take, give them. Yes. You can give room light also.

Jñānagamya: Inside. Inside the room.

Prabhupāda: That's it. So, there is introduction?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Mr. Hamidi. He's a friend of mine at work, and he's very much is interested in both Indian and Iranian spiritual life, in culture as it is. And this is Peter. He has been coming here on Fridays.

Prabhupāda: He's American?

Peter: English.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. And he's come and taken prasādam, and we talk to him sometimes.

Jñānagamya: He offers pūjā to Lord Buddha. He's worshiping Lord Buddha. He has an altar.

Prabhupāda: The other boy?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Siva, Mr. Siva from Malaysia. He's Hindu, I believe. And he's recently come to visit us. Next is Dr. Rulf, he is from Holland. He is an economist, and he is working here, and we have . . . I've been acquainted with him through business. And that is Reza. He has been coming here for a long time, he's been chanting.

Prabhupāda: He's trying to be . . . (indistinct) . . . both?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So Iranian spiritual culture and Indian spiritual culture, you told me?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So first of all, what is spiritual culture?

Mr. Hamidi: Sufism.

Prabhupāda: No, not . . . just like gold.

Mr. Hamidi: Oh, the gold . . .

Prabhupāda: I'll explain. Gold, either in Iran or in India, gold is gold. You cannot say "Iranian gold" or "Indian gold." That is not possible. Similarly, when you says: "Iranian spiritual culture" and "Indian spiritual culture," the common point is spiritual culture. Spiritual culture is one. It cannot be Iranian, Indian, or anywhere belonging to some sycophant. Just like this moon. This moon is now on Iran. But that does not mean it's Iranian moon. Or the sun, it does not mean Iranian sun. Moon is one. Either in India or in Iran, the moon is moon. You cannot say "Iranian moon" or "Indian moon." So spiritual culture is one, and material culture is one. Therefore I'm asking, "What do you mean by spiritual culture?" That is my question. Then we shall consider whether it is Iranian or Indian or . . . what is your idea of spiritual culture?

Mr. Hamidi: Of course, I believe that they're all the same, but . . .

Prabhupāda: No, same . . . but you must explain at least. I want to know that how far you have understood spiritual culture as it is. That is my question.

Mr. Hamidi: Well, of course, it is very difficult to differentiate.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is difficult. Practically you do not know what is spiritual culture. That is a fact. So first of all, you must try to understand what is spiritual culture. Spiritual culture means . . . there are two things within our experience: matter and spirit. So matter is this body, and spirit is the soul within the body. Without spirit, this material body has no value. That we experience every day. When a man is dead, we take it, "Now the body is useless. Throw it away." Therefore the body is important so long the spirit soul is there. And that is spirit. And when we study that spirit soul, that is the beginning of spiritual culture. If you have no idea of what is that spirit, then there is no question of spiritual culture. With this body we cannot make any progress of spiritual culture. That is not possible. The body is matter. They're explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, antavanta ime dehā. Bring Bhagavad-gītā. Antavanta ime dehā nityasyoktāḥ śarīriṇaḥ. So try to understand what is spirit, what is matter.

Pradyumna:

antavanta ime dehā
nityasyoktāḥ śarīriṇaḥ
anāśino 'prameyasya
tasmād yudhyasva bhārata
(BG 2.18)

Translation: "Only the material body of the indestructible, immeasurable and eternal living entity is subject to destruction; therefore, fight, O descendant of Bharata."

Prabhupāda: Only the material body is subject to destruction. Eh?

Pradyumna: "Only the material body of the indestructible, immeasurable and eternal living entity is subject to destruction."

Prabhupāda: Yes, the body's destructible, but the spirit soul is not destructible. When you understand this point, then we understand what is spirit, and then spiritual culture begins. Without being convinced of this spirit soul, there is no question of spiritual culture. So the spirit soul is described as eternal. And the proof is given, eternity. Just like there are so many children. They'll grow up from childhood to boyhood, from boyhood to youthhood. The body is changing. This is very practical. But the spirit soul is there, the same spirit soul which was within the womb of the mother in a small body, then coming out of the mother's womb. The same spirit soul is there, but the body is different. In this way, the body is being situated in different status, but we know that the proprietor of the body is the same. Is there any difficulty to understand? Anyone?

The body is changing, that's a fact. You are young man. You'll have to become an old man like me. That means body will change. But so far you are concerned, you are the same. So, the body changes and the spirit soul remains the same. This is to be understood first of all. What is the difficulty? First of all, you must distinguish what is spirit, what is matter. Material culture means this body is there, it requires some necessities. The body must be given something to eat. Is it not? Eating? Then the body must be given some rest, sleeping, for which we require some apartment, some place. Not we, but also even the animals, birds, they have got their nest, or the animal has got some hole or something. So eating, sleeping, and some sense gratification, sex. These are bodily necessities. But when you understand what is spirit, then we must try to find out what is spiritual necessities. That is spiritual culture. You cannot go on with the bodily culture as spiritual culture. That is a mistake. Spiritual culture is different from the bodily culture. And when we understand it, then there is no question of "Iranian spiritual culture" or "Indian spiritual culture." Spiritual culture is one, as bodily culture is also one. It does not mean that only Indians eat and the Iranians do not eat. The Iranians also eat, because they're bodily necessities. Similarly, spiritual culture also, there is some necessities which is equally needed by the Iranians, by Americans, by Indians. It is not . . . just like when we say that the child grows to become a boy. This is not applicable only to the Indians or Iranians. It is applicable to everyone. Child grows everywhere. You cannot say this is Indian or Iranian. It everywhere. So if we understand what is spiritual culture what is material culture, then there is no question of Iranian or Indian or English or American. Spiritual culture is the same everywhere.

So any question on this point? Any difficulty to understand?

(pause)

Prabhupāda: Spiritual culture or material culture, it is one and the same everywhere. There cannot be any difference. Materially, we want to cover this body, some dress. Everyone has got dress. You cannot say this is Iranian dress or it is Indian dress. Dress is dress, that's all. So any question on this point?

Mr. Hamidi: Isn't it the approach which makes it different?

Prabhupāda: This is the approach, that first of all you distinguish what is matter, what is spirit. This is the approach.

Mr. Hamidi: Well, perhaps, the spiritual culture, what we mean by that, all the rituals, all the different approach . . .

Prabhupāda: No, rituals, we shall come later on. First of all, let us understand what is matter, what is spirit. Unless we understand what is matter and what is spirit, there is no question of spiritual culture. Then you'll be misguided. By material culture, you will pass on as spiritual culture. And that is going on.

(pause)

Jñānagamya: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what is the goal once one understands what is spirit and what is matter? What is the goal past that?

Prabhupāda: Goal is there, because spirit is important. Without spirit, matter has no value. This is a material box, but because it has no spirit, it has no value. It has value, comparatively, but not as valuable as a human being because there is no spirit. You can move, if you like; you can go immediately. But this, for many thousands of years it will lie down here. It cannot move, because there is no spirit. Therefore spirit is important. So this distinction is possible to understand in the human form of body. What is the distinction between a human being or a living man and this box? The distinction is that the living being has the spirit soul within and the box has no spirit soul within. Now if we take care of this box outwardly, that we should take; similarly if you take care of the body only, then where is spiritual culture? If you take care of the four principles of bodily necessities—eating, sleeping and sex and defense—then where is spiritual culture? The aim should be spiritual culture, at least for human being. The cats and dogs, they cannot understand what is the distinction between spirit and soul, er, spirit and matter, but a human being can understand that, "This is spiritual side; this is material side. The spiritual side is important." Therefore the goal is how to understand the spiritual side. (break) That is the goal. If we don't cultivate the spiritual side, simply we take care of the bodily side, then we remain animals. And because people are taking only care for the body, this is animal civilization. Human civilization means to take care of the spiritual side. If there is no such attempt to take care of the spiritual side, simply for the material side, then we are no better than the animals. Because they cannot take any care of the spiritual side; they can take care of the material side.

Peter: Is the soul dependent upon the body for its existence?

Prabhupāda: Hmm? Soul is dependent?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Upon the body for existence.

Prabhupāda: Yes. At the present moment, the soul is dependent on the material body because he has no spiritual culture. Just like we Indians, we were under the British rule. So long there was no national movement, they remained dependent on the Britishers. But as soon as there was national movement, they became independent. This is a crude example. Similarly, because we have no spiritual cultivation, we are dependent on this material body. Actually, the soul is not dependent on the body. It has become so under certain condition: because he's thinking that he is this body. They have been described as mūḍha. Mūḍha is an ass. Mūḍha means ass. So I do not know what it is here. In India the asses are kept by the washerman. The washerman loads tons of cloth on the back of the ass to take it to the waterside, and again he brings back to the washerman shop, and the washerman gives a morsel of grass, little, and he eats the grass and stands there to carry the tons of load, thinking that he's dependent on the washerman. He has no intelligence that, "The grass can be had anywhere. Why I am dependent on this washerman to carry so much load?" Lack of knowledge. Similarly, we are dependent on this body for lack of spiritual knowledge. As soon as he'll be enlightened by spiritual knowledge, then no more dependence. Therefore it is needed. Otherwise, he'll remain like an ass, perpetually dependent on the washerman. Mūḍha. We are thinking that without this body we cannot live. No. That is not the fact. We can live independently of this body. But our present position, because we have no spiritual culture, we are thinking that we are dependent on this body. Actually, we are not dependent. That will be revealed the more you advance in spiritual culture. What was his question before?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Is your question satisfied?

Peter: Yes.

(pause)

Prabhupāda: (referring to something in room) It is something like gum?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Does it require change? No.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Change? Yes.

Prabhupāda: No, I have got it filled in my . . . (indistinct)

Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, it's finished after a while. Just twenty minutes.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Then I shall put another? Dependence for twenty minutes. That is my dependence, for twenty minutes or twenty years or twenty millions of years. There are many animals, they depend on the body for twenty minutes. And there are many animals, they depend on the body for twenty years. And there are many animals who depend on the body for twenty millions of years. It is a question of proportion. But actually the spirit soul is not dependent on any type of body twenty minutes or twenty years and twenty millions of years. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). Find out this.

Pradyumna:

janma karma ca me divyam
evaṁ yo vetti tattvataḥ
tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma
naiti mām eti so 'rjuna
(BG 4.9)

"One who knows the transcendent nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna."

Prabhupāda: Somebody else?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: There are some guests coming. (background discussion as guests move around)

Prabhupāda: Come forward. No, let them come in. So whether these gentlemen's questions are answered? If they have got any doubt, we can . . .

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Through association they will ask more questions.

Prabhupāda: What is that verse?

Pradyumna: "One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna."

Prabhupāda: So this is the process of becoming independent of the material body. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). This is the process. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, how to make one independent of this material body. Any other questions? Then bring my beads.

(long pause)

Prabhupāda: My question is whether you like to remain dependent on this material body. Hmm? If you can live spiritually independent, whether you should remain dependent on this material body, and whether to remain dependent on this material body is happy or it is distress? What is your realization? To remain dependent on this material body, is it very good or is it troublesome, huh?

Peter: Suffering.

Prabhupāda: Suffering, very good. If you remain dependent on this material body, then suffering. So why don't you become independent? That is the next question.

Peter: Attachment.

Prabhupāda: Attachment, maybe. That is not a very important thing. But if there is a process, how to become independent of this body, why should we not take it? That is intelligence. Just like a man suffering from illness—attachment or no attachment, he's now suffering from that illness—but he has put himself into hospitalization under some physician. So that process will cure him, and he'll not suffer from this disease. That is the hope. Or that is the fact. Similarly, circumstantially, we may be dependent on this material body, but if there is a process how we can become independent of the body, why should we not take it? The same example: If a man is diseased, he's captured by the disease. Attachment or no attachment, it is difficult. But he must put himself under treatment so that he can be detached from it. That is intelligence. "I am caught by the disease. So let me suffer without any treatment," that is not intelligence. I must take the process of treatment by which . . . that is explained there, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). Take this treatment so that after giving up this body you'll not have any more material body. And as soon as you become free from this material body, there is no suffering. But as soon as you get material body, you must suffer. So if there is way and means to avoid this material body, and remain in our original, spiritual body, why should we not take it? That is intelligence. And is very simple thing. (aside) Read it again.

Pradyumna: "One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities, does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna."

Prabhupāda: Purport?

Pradyumna: "The Lord's descent from His transcendental abode is already explained in the sixth verse. One who can understand the truth of the appearance of the Personality of Godhead is already liberated from material bondage, and therefore he returns to the kingdom of God immediately after quitting this present material body. Such liberation of the living entity from material bondage is not at all easy. The impersonalists and the yogīs attain liberation only after much trouble and many, many births. Even then, the liberation they achieve, merging into the impersonal brahma-jyotir of the Lord, is only partial, and there's the risk of returning again to this material world. But the devotee, simply by understanding the transcendental nature of the body and activities of the Lord, attains the abode of the Lord after ending this body and does not run the risk of returning again to this material world. In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is stated that the Lord has many, many forms and incarnations: advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam (BS 5.33). Although there are many transcendental forms of the Lord, they are still one and the same Supreme Personality of Godhead. One has to understand this fact with conviction, although it is incomprehensible to mundane scholars and empiric philosophers. As stated in the Vedas:"

eko devo nitya-līlānurakto
bhakta-vyāpī hṛdy antar-ātmā
(Puruṣa-bodhinī Upaniṣad)

"The one Supreme Personality of Godhead is eternally engaged in many, many transcendental forms in relationships with His unalloyed devotees.' This Vedic version is confirmed in this verse of the Gītā personally by the Lord. He who accepts this truth on the strength of the authority of the Vedas and of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and who does not waste time in philosophical speculations, attains the highest perfectional stage of liberation. Simply by accepting this truth on faith, one can, without a doubt, attain liberation. The Vedic version, tat tvam asi, is actually applied in this case. Anyone who understands Lord Kṛṣṇa to be the Supreme, or who says unto the Lord, 'You are the Supreme Brahman, the Personality of Godhead,' is certainly liberated instantly, and consequently his entrance into the transcendental association of the Lord is guaranteed. In other words, such a faithful devotee of the Lord attains perfection, and this is confirmed by the following Vedic assertion:"

tam eva viditvāti mṛtyum eti
nānyaḥ panthā vidyate 'yanāya
(Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 3.8)

"One can attain the perfect stage of liberation from birth and death simply by knowing the Lord, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. There is no alternative, because anyone who does not understand Lord Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead is surely in the mode of ignorance. Consequently he will not attain salvation simply, so to speak, by licking the outer surface of the bottle of honey, or by interpreting the Bhagavad-gītā according to mundane scholarship. Such empiric philosophers may assume many important roles in the material world, but they are not necessarily eligible for liberation. Such puffed-up mundane scholars have to wait for the causeless mercy of the devotee of the Lord. One should therefore cultivate Kṛṣṇa consciousness with faith and knowledge, and in this way attain perfection."

Prabhupāda: So if there is some process to become independent of this material body, why should we not accept? What is the objection? (doorbell sounds) If somebody's suffering from some disease and if there is process of curing it, why one should not take it?

(long pause)

Prabhupāda: So your friends' questions and answers are welcome.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: They just came to listen, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: No, they must be satisfied. (break)

Ātreya Ṛṣi: The young man who just came is Terry Graham. He'd come to see you two years ago when you were here.

Prabhupāda: Oh, jaya.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: He's a journalist.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. I remember. So he has got any question?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Terry, do you have any questions?

Terry: No.

(long pause)

Terry: I have a question about this particular age. Where the world seems to be dividing itself between two kinds of materialists: the one which pays lip service to spiritual precedents but really devotes itself to self-aggrandizement, and the other, which establishes an atheistic doctrine in the name of moral struggle with that greedy self-aggrandizement. In fact, this atheistic moral doctrine has now taken over virtually the entire Sinic world—China, Tibet, Indochina. Is there some way that . . . the question is, what is the cosmic purpose for this, and how should one come to terms with this prevailing . . . this increasingly prevailing notion that justice can be established in a material state or a material dimension?

Prabhupāda: In the material world there cannot be any peace, justice, morality. It is not possible. You may try to make some adjustment, but it will never be possible. So, by their concocted imagination, they are thinking, "This way will be beneficial," but unless they come to the spiritual platform, there is no question of peace, prosperity, justice. It is not possible.

brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā
na śocati na kāṅkṣati
samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu
mad-bhaktiṁ labhate param
(BG 18.54)

Unless we come to the spiritual platform, there is no question of justice, morality, peace. It is not possible. They may attempt in different ways, by their mental speculative process, but actually it will never come to be true. They are all trying—the scientists, philosophers, politicians, religionists—to make some adjustment, but that is not possible. We must understand the material platform, these threefold miserable conditions. Just like we are trying to avoid some miserable condition, very insignificant—to get out of the disturbance created by the mosquitoes and the flies. We are trying our best, but still they are disturbing. Is it not? Still they find out some loopholes and go into the room and disturb you. So you cannot avoid. Similarly, the disturbances of nature—the severe cold, scorching heat—how you can counteract it? Is it possible? Not possible. Ādhyātmika, you may keep your body quite fit to your best knowledge, but still there will be some trouble, sometimes coughing, sometimes mental equilibrium is lost, you don't feel nice. So these things will go on. Because we have got this material body, the material conditions must work. You cannot make any adjustments. That's not possible. You have come to the spiritual platform independent of this material body, then there will be everything solved, on every purpose. They can waste their time for making an adjustment, but that is not possible. I have given some example, that everyone is trying to become free from the material disturbances, but it is not possible. Nobody is free from material disturbance. That is not possible. So if you actually want freedom from material disturbances, you have to come to the spiritual platform and cultivate spiritual knowledge and be fixed up. Then your life is successful.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Is there a relationship, he's asking, between these disturbances and this age, that this time that we are living in . . .

Prabhupāda: It is more or less. Sometimes you have got 110° temperature and sometimes you have got 70° temperature. But the disturbance is there. Either 110° or 70° or 30°, you'll have to feel the disturbance. You cannot stop it. So either you take the cause this age, or this country, or this atmosphere, we can say so, but it will continue. That is the nature of the material world. If you think that 110° is too much, "Let it be 100° . . ." That you concoct like that. In fact any such temperature will disturb you. That's a fact. You can think that if it would have been 100°, it would have been very nice. But that's not the fact. Either 110° or 100°, it is disturbing. That is a fact. Then how can you stop it? Anyone who wants to stop it, he's intelligent. And that is described here, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mam eti (BG 4.9). One has to understand this fundamentally, that so long I'll get this material body, I'll have to suffer. Maybe differences of degrees, but I will have to suffer. So my endeavor should be how to become independent of this material body. That is wanted. That is intelligence. Not to make a distinction of different degrees. Different degrees . . . one position . . . "One man's food, another man's poison," the same degree. If you think that it is nice, another man will suffer. So suffering will continue. That is not possible to . . . (indistinct) . . . it is the nature of material world, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). (aside:) Find out this verse. Mām upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam. This material world is full of miseries. That they do not understand. Miserable condition they are accepting as pleasing. That is called ignorance.

Pradyumna:

mām upetya punar janma
duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam
nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ
saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gataḥ
(BG 8.15)

"After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogīs in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection."

Prabhupāda: The material world is full of miseries. It may be of different degrees, but it is full of miseries. You cannot avoid by adjustment. That is not possible. Therefore the materialist, they are trying. Just like in this country, Iran, now the Iranians are trying to become as opulent as the Americans are. They are trying to build up similar cities and industries. But do you think they will be happy then? No. Are the Americans happy by having big, big cities? No. That is not possible. Now they are trying to imitate, but that is a false attempt. That is not the life. They can see that Americans have got big, big cities, they have big, big organizations, but are they happy actually or not? From practical example. Then why you are attempting again to imitate them? That intelligence is lacking. How they will be happy, they do not know it. They are trying to imitate somebody else who is already on the standard, so-called, but still they are not happy. The Communists, they're trying for the last fifty years to become happy, but are they happy actually? No. The Russians and the Chinese, they are now differing, "No, this is not the standard. This is standard." So the same thing is going on. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). It is like chewing the chewed, that's all. Somebody has chewed the sugarcane and it's thrown away. Another man comes, "Let me taste it." And what you'll taste? It is already finished.

So all these "isms," they are all finished. All the scientific discoveries, they are all finished. And where is happiness? This is not the way. That is the . . . mām upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). You have to attempt in such a way that after giving up this body, you go back home, back to Godhead, never come back again here. This is the way. Otherwise, there is no happiness. Go on struggling, that is your choice. Make new attempts. Just like this moon excursion. Ten years ago in one small book, Easy Journey to Other Planets, we predicted that this moon-going attempt is childish and waste of time. We are not expert scientist, but from the śāstra we can understand. Now such a brilliant planet, pleasing, and they have discovered there rocks and sand. Just see their intelligence. Do you think rocks and sand is so brilliant? What do you think? This bluff is going on. People are feeling under the moonshine is so pleasing, and it is full of rocks and sand. We have to accept that. Rocks and sand, throughout the whole day by scorching heat, they also become heated. So at night it is suffering. So if it is rocks and sand, so whole day it was heated by the sunshine, how it is pleasing? . . . but if there is no material activities, then you are not affected. This is possible. Just like an iron rod, you put into the fire. Gradually, it becomes warmer, warmer, and at last, when it is red hot, it is fire, no more iron. Similarly, even though we have got this material body, if we cultivate spiritual life, then the activities of the material body will stop automatically. Therefore it is no more material body. The same example, the iron rod has become already fire. So you put it in the fire, and continue it, then you'll understand that it is no more iron rod, it is fire. Touch anywhere, it will burn. You cannot say it is iron bar. Similarly, if you become spiritually enlightened, then the material activities will stop, and then you'll be happy. (break) You'll feel, "Yes, I have got some . . . (indistinct) . . ."

Peter: In the last chapter which he read, he was . . . I think you read about the yogīs who can get to this high level of consciousness and then they can still fall back. That's like, my question: what was the cause for this?

Prabhupāda: If you do not come to the point of fulfillment of your appetite—you are eating, but if you have not sufficiently eaten, then you want more to eat. But if you have sufficiently eaten, then you will say: "No, no, no. No more I want." Even if you are offered, "Take more food." You'll say: "No, I have enough." It is a question of sufficiency and insufficiency. If you are insufficiently spiritually advanced, you'll feel vacancy so much. But if you are sufficiently advanced, then you'll say: "It is all right now." It is a question of sufficiency, insufficiency. So other method, jñāna, yoga, they are insufficient. And bhakti-yoga is sufficient. Therefore you'll find in the Bhagavad-gītā the Lord says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). (aside) Find out this verse. He never recommends jñāna, yoga, karma. Bhakti. So if you take the path of bhakti, then you'll feel sufficiency. Otherwise, you'll feel insufficient. To some extent, although it is perfect, but it is not completely perfect.

Pradyumna:

bhaktyā mām abhijānāti
yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ
tato māṁ tattvato jñātvā
viśate tad-anantaram
(BG 18.55)

"One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of the Supreme Lord by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God."

Prabhupāda: That's it. Unless you enter into the kingdom of God, you'll not feel full satisfaction. Even if you go to the moon planet or Mars planet, there is no question of satisfaction.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: (to guest) So your question is whether one can enter this kingdom of God with this body.

Prabhupāda: No, that is already explained—tyaktvā dehaṁ. Giving up this body, one can enter in spiritual world. Viśate tad-anantaram—after death. By bhakti, when he's mature and he gives up this body, then he enters into the spiritual world. Tyaktvā deham, giving up this body. You cannot enter; although by devotional service the material activities of the body will stop, but you have to wait for the moment when this material body is no more existing, then with spiritual body you can enter. Tyaktvā deham, mām eti. Viśate tad-anantaram. Tad-anantaram: after death. And if you have got little pinch of material attachment, then you'll have to accept another material body. So we have come to the point that no more I want anything material. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170). I am no more anyone's servant. I am neither American nor Iranian nor Indian nor Hindu nor Muslim, not this, not that; I'm simply servant of . . . that is my position. And so long I shall keep attachment for this designation, temporary . . . what is this "Iranian," "American," "Indian"? Say for few years. Because you have to change this body. Tyaktvā deham. Tathā dehāntaram. So after giving up this body, you have to accept another body. If I am in the next body I become a sparrow, then where is my conception of Iranian, Indian and Hindu, and Muslim? I am sparrow, jumping like sparrow, that's all. So these are designations, temporary designations. One has to become free from these temporary designations. Then he's liberated. That is bhakti.

sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam
tat-paratvena nirmalam
hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa
sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate
(CC Madhya 19.170)

So this life should be utilized for purifying ourself from this designation. If you keep the designation, then there is no possibility of purification. You'll get another designation. Now we are Indian or Iranian, next a sparrow or a crow or a tree or a demigod—another designation. Just like the same: the child, a baby, on the lap of the mother, a baby; and another designation, boy; another designation, young man; another designation, old man. But the spirit soul is the same. He's simply changing designation. So freedom means freedom from these all these designations. I am spirit, ahaṁ brahmāsmi. I am spirit soul, my business is spiritual activity. So long we want to keep designation, you'll have to accept material body and suffer.

So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to educate people how to become free from designations. Therefore we accept from any group. He might think that he is under designation . . . but our business is to make him free from the designation. We therefore welcome anyone. He may come with designation, but if he lives with us, he follows our rules and regulations, he become free from designation. And this so-called designated religious system will not help us. If we keep ourself on the designated platform—"I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Iranian," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," "I am Buddhist"—then we have to continue in that designation. There is no question of freedom. That requires tapasya. That designationless status is called brahma-bhūtaḥ. And the opposite of brahma-bhūtaḥ is jīva-bhutaḥ. Jīva-bhutaḥ . . . there are so many jīvas, living entities. The dog is thinking, "I am dog." And the bird is thinking, "I am bird." The man is thinking, "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim." So this designation, you may be a dog designation or Hindu designation or Muslim, they are the same. There is no difference. Maybe some degrees. But one has to become designationless. That is called brahma-bhūtaḥ. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54). Then bhakti, when one is designationless. If he wants to keep his designation, then there is no question of bhakti. The bhakti line is so nice that if you take to bhakti line, automatically you'll be designationless.

(pause)

Prabhupāda: Now you have to decide whether you want to keep designation or become free from designation.

(pause)

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda, thank you very much.

(guests leave) (break)

Pradyumna: . . . activity, but he still has designation and he comes to the temple and he chants, but he still thinks . . .

Prabhupāda: That is an attempt to become designationless. But one has to become free from designation. The same example: If the rod is put in the fire, it is becoming warm, warmer, warmer, and when it is red hot it is no more rod, it is fire. So beginning of life, neophyte stage, is the beginning. When he actually becomes advanced in devotional service, that is designationless.

Pradyumna: But we still call that, when a person first comes and he still has that designation stage, but we still call that bhakti?

Prabhupāda: No, he's on the platform. Just like the same example. The iron rod is put in the fire. So it is fiery condition. Similarly, one who has given to devotional service, he is in the designationless condition, but it requires time to make the iron rod exactly fire.

Pradyumna: Same thing as that pulling the plug out of the fan.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Pradyumna: Same example, pulling the plug out and fan keeps going for some . . .

Prabhupāda: There are so many examples. There are so many examples. The beginning stage and the perfect stage. Perfect stage, designationless. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, in the beginning, api cet su-durācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ (BG 9.30): even he's not completely a devotee, still, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ, you must accept him as a devotee. Why? Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. He has taken to the process completely. So there may be some designations of his on account of past habit, but because he has taken to the process of becoming designationless, he is sādhu. If he sticks to the principle, kṣipraṁ bhavati dharmātmā śaśvac-chāntiṁ nigacchati (BG 9.31), he'll very soon he'll become a perfect devotee and he'll get peace—śaśvac-chānti-kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati. These things are there. So one has to take the line of Kṛṣṇa consciousness seriously, then everything automatically will appear. There is no . . . that is called utsāhān dhairyāt. Dhairyāt, patience. Niścayād: "I have taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness exactly as Kṛṣṇa wants, then I'll surely be perfect." That is niścayād. There is no doubt about it. If I am following the direction of Kṛṣṇa under the guidance of spiritual master, be sure that you'll be successful. There is no question of becoming unsuccessful. Niścayād. But if I am deviating, that is my . . . (indistinct) . . . but if you follow, then you'll be sure to be successful.

Jñānagamya: Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that what Lord Caitanya is trying to teach Haridāsa Ṭhākura when he says, "Put away your excess humility"?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Jñānagamya: Haridāsa Ṭhākura is following all the principles, but he's always feeling so fallen. So Lord Caitanya tells him, "Put away your excess humility." Is this what He is trying to teach him? That we should have assurance?

Prabhupāda: Assurance is there. Kṛṣṇa says, kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhakta . . . (BG 9.31). If you remain pure devotee, you'll never fall down. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). These are assurances. If you simply try to understand what is Kṛṣṇa, why does He come, what are His activities, janma karma ca me divyam, simply . . . this is cultivation, to understand Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa consciousness cultivation. And Kṛṣṇa assures, tyaktvā dehaṁ: you have to give up this body. But for a devotee giving up this body means no more accepting another body. And nondevotees giving up this body, tathā dehāntara prāptir: another body. That is the difference between devotee and nondevotee. One may say both of them are dying. Yes, they are dying, that's all right. They are not dying—nobody is dying—but changing the body. But a devotee's changing not to accept any more material body. The nondevotees changing to accept another. That is the difference. And if you accept another body you will suffer, more or less, degrees. And if you don't accept material body, then you become spiritually situated. Sac-cid-ānanda vigraha (BS 5.1), simply ānanda, eternally blissful. Very easy.

So we should be intelligent enough that if by practicing in this one life I can get next eternal, blissful life of knowledge, why shall I deviate? Even if there is some difficulty, let me tolerate. What is the difficulty? Caitanya Mahāprabhu given so easy, harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21). Simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and everything will be done perfectly. So where is the difficulty? No difficulty. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has not bluffed. He said kalau nāsty eva: in Kali-yuga you cannot do anything more. You do, simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Where is the difficulty now? A boy can chant. It is simply practice, association. Your son, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa.

So these chances should be given to everyone, then everything will be all right. Let him be practiced to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, then everything will go on. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Where is the difficulty, unless we make it difficult? Otherwise there is no difficulty. Otherwise suffering. Just like this lamb. It has got the Iranian body, but he's kept there for being killed. So what is the benefit of this Iranian body? But people are very much enthusiastic to remain nationalists, "I am Iranian," "I am American," "I am this," "I am that." So, but he has worked in a different way, so he has got attachment for becoming American and Iranian, "All right you become." And according to work you have to become a lamb, and other Iranians eat you. That's all. This is designation. They do not understand, or they are not educated that what he will get by these designations. Big, big movement is going on on this designation platform. In our country, Mahatma Gandhi, he supposed to be a great personality, but what is his teaching? He remained in designation, that's all. "Feel like Indian and drive away the English." By one designation, you drive away another designation. This is going on. And he took Bhagavad-gītā and never said: "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." This is going on. Karma-kāṇḍa, jñāna-kāṇḍa sakale viṣera bandha (Prema-bhakti-candrikā). This is karma-kāṇḍa. Designation means this. And higher than this karma-kāṇḍa, the mental speculators, jñāna-kāṇḍa. So Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, both of them viṣera bandha, pot of poison. If you waste your time in this way, then they will get another body, that's all. Nana yoni bhraman kare kadārya bhakṣana kare, tara janma adha pate yaya. These are simple words, but it contains very, very grave meaning from the Vaiṣṇava ācārya. Where is Ātreya Ṛṣi?

Jñānagamya: Ātreya Ṛṣi? I'll get him.

Pradyumna: If we take that analogy, karma-kāṇḍa, jñāna-kāṇḍa, then . . .

Prabhupāda: Everything is going on, karma-kāṇḍa. Whole world acting fruitive activities: "Let me work and get the result." This is karma-kāṇḍa.

Pradyumna: And it is like poison. From poison we suffer and die.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is . . . die means spiritual death. No spiritual idea. Otherwise, we have no death, nitya. But spiritual death is there. (Ātreya Ṛṣi enters, offers obeisances:) So your friends are satisfied or not?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They said they were.

Prabhupāda: This is scientific truth.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: I have noticed that people who are materially contaminated, when they hear spiritual preaching, they can always look at it from material point of view. For example, when you speak of designation, one boy was asking how come we are also having shaved heads and dressing like devotees. In other words, the emphasis on their minds is more on what is everybody else thinking, while the emphasis in your teaching is how you yourself can become free, not what everybody else is thinking. While our shaving of our head and dressing as devotee is a means to become free from all designation, he may be seeing other designations.

Prabhupāda: No, it does not depend on shaving head. But this is in the process.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: It is in the process.

Prabhupāda: Yes. By shaving . . . there are so many shaven-headed. Does it means that he's in the process? Just like a doctor carries one stethoscope. But if somebody thinks, "Let me carry a stethoscope, I'll become a doctor." (break) But for a doctor the stethoscope is required. But if a false man takes a stethoscope and declares himself a doctor, medical man, then he is cheating.

(pause)

Prabhupāda: You get here puffed rice? No.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Get?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: We . . . let me ask. We may have little bit.

Prabhupāda: No, here they prepare puffed rice?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: No. From India or from America. We don't have.

Prabhupāda: You get imported.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Would you like me to ask?

Prabhupāda: Yes, few grains.

Hari-śauri: We have some flat rice with us, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We brought some flat rice, cheera.

Prabhupāda: No, don't . . . (indistinct) . . . I shall not take it.

Jñānagamya: Did he see that in the store now? I'm asking if he saw it in the store.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, it is not here, we got it.

Prabhupāda: What is that? No. Don't take trouble. I'll not take.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: No trouble.

Jñānagamya: I have some friends in American commissary, friends like that. They could possibly get it. I'll call them.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: You get some tomorrow. Can I see if we can fix you some, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Puffed rice? No.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: What would you like, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: No, doesn't matter.

Nava-yauvana: Someone has given us some from India.

Prabhupāda: Puffed rice?

Nava-yauvana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Bring it, let me see.

(pause)

Prabhupāda: I think today is cooler, so I don't require to lie down outside.

Hari-śauri: Sleep inside?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Hari-śauri: Sleep inside?

Pradyumna: It's coming to pūrṇimā.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Moon is cooling effect. Desert will make a cooling effect. (laughter) Just see. At least I shall not believe that this is desert and rock. I am not so fool. The desert and rock is giving so nice brilliant shining, everyone is feeling comfortable. Just see. We have to believe it.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Because Kṛṣṇa is missing. They don't accept Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: No, they should have at least common sense. But they have no common sense. Kṛṣṇa is far away from here, for these rascals, but at least they should have common sense. But that also they have not. Even they have not common sense.

Pradyumna: Children are always asking . . . it is a folk thing that children ask, "What is the moon made of? Mother, father, what is the moon made of?"

Prabhupāda: They ask?

Pradyumna: Generally, when they young, "What is the moon?" "What is the moon made of?" So they used to answer, "It's made of green cheese." (laughter)

Prabhupāda: You believe that it is desert and rock and giving so nice shining, cooling effect? In Vedic literature there is always comparison, analogy, with moon, moon-faced, candra-mukhi. There are so many. Best thing is compared with the moon. We have named Māyāpur-candra. Māyāpur-candrodaya Mandira. Do you mean that a desert is coming out from Māyāpur?

(pause)

Prabhupāda: You have got rock candy?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Give me little.

Jñānagamya: Prabhupāda, your temples are the real spaceships. We can go to the other planets and to Kṛṣṇaloka from your temples.

Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore I've given you Easy Journey to Other Planets. (devotee brings in puffed rice) It is from India?

Nava-yauvana: It is from India.

Prabhupāda: Fresh.

Atreya Ṛṣi: Would you like it fried a little?

Prabhupāda: Little make it hot.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Hot. We can little heat it.

Prabhupāda: That's all. After heating, put little ghee, very little, and mix it with black pepper and salt.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: We mix it or you mix it?

Prabhupāda: I can mix.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: We'll bring it separately.

Prabhupāda: But this is good.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: And also we can bring some fruit?

Prabhupāda: No . . . (indistinct) . . . keep it there. So this is nice.

Hari-śauri: Shall I put some on this lid, or . . .?

Prabhupāda: Hmm. (background discussion as devotees arrange things) Some Indian gentleman has given?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: This is Mrs. Patel. We asked.

Prabhupāda: She has prepared or . . .?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, from India.

Prabhupāda: Persian rice is famous.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. It is prepared in a different way. It is prepared differently.

Prabhupāda: Persian rice?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, we prepare it also differently.

Prabhupāda: How?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: We first boil it and then take the water out and then steam it, steam it with ghee.

Prabhupāda: So first of all you boil?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: And take the water out.

Prabhupāda: Paddy? Paddy?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, boil for two three minutes and then steam.

Prabhupāda: Rice?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes then steam. And it makes very long, individual . . .

Prabhupāda: And then you dry?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: No. We eat it like that.

Prabhupāda: For two, three days?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: No.

Pradyumna: No. They eat it immediately after cooking.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Pradyumna: Was that the rice she made? She prepared it that way last night? This afternoon?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: No. This rice isn't even Persian; it's American rice. Persian rice is too expensive, even in Persia. (indistinct background conversation) (break)

Prabhupāda: They make very nice puffed rice in Bengal.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: How do they make it, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Not difficult. The paddy, they are boiled. And then again baked in the sunshine. Again boil, then again baked in the sunshine. Then the skin is taken out by that ḍheṅki, what is called? That rice . . .

Pradyumna: Thresher?

Prabhupāda: That is that ḍheṅki, husking machine, the skin is taken away. Then mixed with salt and make it heated. Then when it is prepared, then they heat sand, and in that heated sand they put the rice, and immediately putt-putt-putt-putt-putt-putt-putt-putt-putt. Like that.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: They also make it like that in America?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: In America they probably have a short-cut process.

Prabhupāda: Maybe. What method?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Industrial. Machines. (laughs)

Pradyumna: We used to have for breakfast. (end)