760707 - Conversation B - Baltimore
Prabhupāda: ". . . we have got our authority." I have got my authority, Bhāgavatam, Vedic literature. Why shall I give you better preference, your authority? I have got my authority.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we'll explain there are two types of acquiring knowledge. Two different techniques. Now the scientists are believing their own . . .
Prabhupāda: That is imperfect. Inductive knowledge is always imperfect. Deductive knowledge is perfect if it is taken from the authority. Suppose man is mortal. So inductive process is that you examine every man, whether he's mortal or immortal. So suppose you have seen millions of men, and they are all mortal, they die. Then your conclusion is man is mortal. But I can say you have not seen a man who does not die. I can say that. So this inductive knowledge will remain always imperfect. It will never be perfect, because your examination is limited. So I can that say you have not seen the person, man . . . suppose if I say: "You have not seen Vyāsadeva, he's immortal. You have not seen Aśvatthāmā, he's immortal." So how this scientific research can be perfect, inductive? It is never perfect. Because you may be missing somebody who is immortal, then your conclusion is wrong. There is no scope of studying all the living beings. There is no such scope. You have limited scope. So your seeing power is limited. How you can decide from the limited seeing power?
Rūpānuga: They will say: "Well, we have done so many good things, we have produced so many nice things."
Prabhupāda: You have done nothing good, I say. You have simply wasted time and taken public money, that's all.
Rūpānuga: "We have made some mistakes, but we have produced some good things in medicine and, anyway, you should accept our authority because we have done so many good things."
Prabhupāda: No, because you have done something, that I accept. Just like you have done very good, 747 aeroplane, but just make a mosquito, with pilot and everything. Can you do it? Then why do you take all the credit. Take credit for 747, that's all. But when I ask you, "Create another plane like a fly or mosquito," you are unable to do it. Then why do you take, "There is no God, science is everything." Why do you say like that?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's why we want to bring up this point that, "Scientists, we are not claiming that you are all nonsense, but you are all good men, but you should know your limits."
Prabhupāda: You should not be so proud falsely—that is our point—and mislead others that there is no God. Because you are accepted as authority, scientist, if you say that there is no God, they will accept it. Then our back to Godhead movement is stopped. Then we must stop your also nonsense. It is a fight. Because you say there is no God, and we say you are all nonsense. We must say it. You are challenging; we must challenge. But you accept God, then we have nothing . . . I think Sir Isaac Newton said like that, "The vast knowledge, we have simply gathered a few grains of sand on the beach of knowledge," something like that. That is good.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, humble.
Prabhupāda: That is good. But how you can say there is no God, everything is science? And misleading people. That must be stopped. You take credit as much as you have done. That we are ready to give you. Because you have created one aeroplane, 747, therefore you can do everything, if you do . . . like that, that is misleading. That we cannot . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, once that very concept that they will be able to do all these things, if that is removed, then they come on the platform as . . .
Prabhupāda: Sane man. They are talking like insane man.
Ravīndra-svarūpa: But their inspiration is that we can always do something bigger and better than we've done before.
Prabhupāda: But still you cannot do in the final. That is not possible. Because you are finite. You are not infinite. Your knowledge is limited. You can do something up to some extent.
Ravīndra-svarūpa: They agree that . . . they all agree that . . .
Prabhupāda: They are giving bluff, "Yes, we shall produce life. Wait for millions of years. Wait for millions." This is nonsense. Who will wait for millions of years and see your scientific discovery?
Rūpānuga: Well, they'll say: "Yes, we are finite, but we can work together, combinedly together, and make great progress, scientific progress, all working together, every nation."
Prabhupāda: You cannot do anything which is beyond your power. But you are limited, your power is limited. That you must agree. Your power is not unlimited. You are finite. That you must admit.
Ravīndra-svarūpa: Then they say: "Yes, we may be limited, and our inductive process may be imperfect, but, you may criticize, but you have to show us something better."
Prabhupāda: I may not show, but as I give you example, that you have manufactured 747 and God has manufactured mosquito. You do that. We are . . . I am layman, but I see there is another, better manufacturer than you. I may be layman, but I can see that you cannot do it. If you say you can do it, then you are rascal. I must say that you are a rascal. First of all do, then speak. You take your credit, as much as you have done. But if you want to take the place of God, then we must slap you right and left. (laughter) That is our business. Because we cannot give better credit than God to anyone. That is our business. Asamordhva. There is nobody equal to God, nobody is greater than God. This is our preaching. So you cannot claim equal to God. No question of becoming greater than God. You cannot become even equal to God. You are always under. You admit it, then we have no quarrel with you. You admit that, "Yes, we are under God," then we are friends.
Prabhupāda: And as soon as you say that you are equal or greater, then you are rascal. We must expose you, that you are a rascal. This is our business, because we are servant of God. We cannot see anything blaspheming against God. That is not our business. We must chastise immediately.
Rūpānuga: In that way we can help the people in general.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually, that is the fact. If you are actually scientist, then you prove that there is God. That is your success of education. Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā sūktasya sviṣṭasya ca buddhi-dattayoḥ avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavi . . . (SB 1.5.22). Your education has meaning when, by your education, by your scientific knowledge, you'll prove that there is God, He is so glorified. Then you are welcome. Then you are really scientist. And if you become a rascal, then you say, "Oh, there is no need of God. We are going to manufacture. Just wait for one million years." Is this a proposal, I have to wait for one million year to see your scientific research work? And we shall allow such fools to flourish? That is not possible.
Rūpānuga: It will be a very great service to the people in general if we can stop that.
Prabhupāda: Warn that "Here are thieves. Be careful of your pocket. They'll say all bluff and take money from your pocket."
Rūpānuga: We will call spade a spade.
Prabhupāda: Yes. What do you think? Is that right process? Huh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Rūpānuga: Fresh water.
Hari-śauri: Here's some water from the . . .
Prabhupāda: So make a magazine to expose this. Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā sviṣṭasya . . . (SB 1.5.22): you, by your knowledge, you describe the glories of the Lord, then you are my guru. This is our . . . if they say: "Why do you bother about God?" that is the business of human being. A human being, he is given the chance to understand God, and you people are stopping, putting stumbling block in his understanding of God. You are the greatest miscreant. I have got a chance to get one million dollar, and if you check it, I cannot get it, how much mischievous you are for me. Is it not? What do you think?
Rūpānuga: Yes, they are stopping it.
Prabhupāda: Yes, I have got chance to get from a friend one million dollar, and he's ready, and if somebody checks it, that I may not get that one million dollar, then he's the greatest enemy.
Rūpānuga: They are stopping the benefit.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So the human life is meant for understanding God, and these rascals, by all dead theories, they are stopping to understand God.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Scientists are responsible for.
Prabhupāda: Yes, the greatest mischief-maker, in the name of scientific knowledge. We must fight against them. Let them agree, "Yes, God is supreme." Then there is no fight. But as soon as they say that, "There is no need of God. Science will solve everything," then they are rascal; you must expose.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Another point about this Institute, from my experience in the last few days in Washington, there were some Indians who come to the temple, and they are very favorable to the concept.
Prabhupāda: Include such members. Let them . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yesterday this Sharma, Sharma, he came, and he's going to come this evening. He's quite well known as a scientist.
Prabhupāda: Medical man?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, he's not medical man, but he has two or three Ph.D.'s in two, three different fields—in engineering, in chemistry and in pathology.
Bṛṣākapi: He's becoming a Life Member, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: That pathologist.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. He has a degree also . . . he works in National Institute of Health in Washington, D.C. We was telling me he was from Haridwar, from a very pious family, and he said his parents are Vaiṣṇavas, and he has been thinking since from his childhood about this problem about life, the origin of life and its consciousness. And we talked a little bit about our concept of this origin of life, connecting from the Vedas and the scientific interrelationship, and he was very much impressed, and he told me that if he can be of any help, he's willing to . . .
Prabhupāda: You should call him, let us.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, he's coming this evening.
Prabhupāda: All right, very good.
Pradyumna: In India, there are many Ph.D.'s and scientists who are Vaiṣṇavas, and they write articles. But in India it doesn't go noticed. In South, there are many.
Prabhupāda: In South, eh?
Pradyumna: In Bangalore and many places.
Prabhupāda: They are all Vaiṣṇavas. So recruit them. You know? Then let them write articles in this. Yes, it will be very nice.
Pradyumna: Yes, we advertise in our magazine, "Please write articles," many big men . . .
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, in fact he wanted to put an article, this very man Sharma, he wanted to write article on consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Let them write, we shall publish. And similarly, ask the South Indian Ph.D.'s. We want so many Ph.D.'s writing. Then it will be respectable. People will understand that this is not ordinary thing; all learned scholars, they are writing. That will carry some respect.
Rūpānuga: So these persons, I was mentioning to you in the car, that we would like to have them associated in some way with the Institute, so . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes, if they write article, if they read our books, that is associate. Not that they will have to come here and sit down with us. Let them read the book and deliberate and write nice article, their opinion. That will be nice. Then you'll get sufficient article for publishing. That is wanted. All the Ph.D. Vaiṣṇavas, they may take advantage of this.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, and it will be respected in the academic circles.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. If they are getting respect talking all nonsense, and here we shall glorify the Supreme Lord, why not respect?
- ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā
- svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya
- saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam
- (SB 1.2.13)
Hari-toṣaṇam. When they try to satisfy the senses of Kṛṣṇa, His glory, then the Ph.D. is perfect. And if he continues to talk nonsense, then it is useless waste of time and labor.
Devotee: Another point about this journal is that we will present controversial things, and people may want to write something to refute what we have said.
Prabhupāda: You refute.
Devotee: We can publish that and also our refutation?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is nice. We invite, "All right, come on."
Devotee: "Criticize, and we will defeat you."
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is fighting.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That will be very good.
Devotee: Yes, it will be more interesting. The more fight, the more people like it.
Prabhupāda: So, we shall have to go now?
Rūpānuga: I think it's best if we would drive back now to Washington.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Let us go.
Devotees: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (offer obeisances)
Prabhupāda: Try your best, Kṛṣṇa will give you intelligence. I started this fight alone, now Kṛṣṇa is . . . (end)