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760706 - Conversation A - Washington D.C.

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

760706R1-WASHINGTON DC - July 06, 1976 - 48:49 Minutes

Prabhupāda: You economically prove that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is simple and inexpensive life.

Devotees: Yes, jaya. Mercy.

Prabhupāda: Food, diet, living condition, healthy, hygienic, everything. You prove that this is the best way of life. That's a fact. From all sides, prove that Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is essential for the human society, to make them happy in this life and next life. And that is a fact.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Prabhupāda? Today I want to discuss about the manifestation of matter from pradhāna. Now Lord Kapiladeva describes that pradhāna is the undifferentiated sum total of all material elements.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Mahat-tattva?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, pradhāna. Then from pradhāna, by the action of time this mahat-tattva is generated. Now we were a little confused about that. He said by the impregnation of the Lord's internal potency there is hiraṇmaya, hiraṇmaya is produced within mahat-tattva, and this hiraṇmaya is self-effulgent.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's effulgent.

Prabhupāda: Hiraṇmaya?

Hari-śauri: Effulgent.

Prabhupāda: Oh, effulgent, yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now our point is whether this hiraṇmaya . . . in the mahat-tattva, the relationship between these two and pradhāna, how does that relate each other? It's not very clear in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. We're not very clear, this point. It said from pradhāna, by the impregnation with the Lord's internal potency, the hiraṇmaya is produced. That's actually the beginning of the injection of jīvas within these material modes.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is little complicated. So is it not clear from the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is little difficult to understand the phenomenal descriptions.

Prabhupāda: In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, nityānanda-tattva? You can read it, you'll get some clue.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We also get some clue from First Canto, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, in the puruṣa incarnations, where it explains about tattva. But there is a difference between . . . now our understanding is this: pradhāna, both pradhāna and mahat-tattva, they are eternal, though they are material manifestations.

Prabhupāda: Everything eternal.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, eternal in the sense that it's different from prakṛti. Now prakṛti is, when it is completely manifested . . .

Prabhupāda: Prakṛti, pradhāna, puruṣa, these things are little complicated.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But we wanted to clarify this, because this is the nice thing that we can show that matter comes from life. This is the source.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Sa īkṣata, sa asṛjata, by the glance of Mahā-Viṣṇu . . . eko nārāyaṇa āsīt. In the beginning, Nārāyaṇa was there. There was no Lord Śiva, no neither Brahmā. This mantra was there. So originally, by the glance . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: By the glance of Viṣṇu.

Prabhupāda: We can prove it that how by the sunshine everything is growing, how it is. Your molecule and so on, so on, you can describe. Actually, from the sunshine the trees are growing, leaves are coming. As soon as there is no sunshine, immediately they fall down, the leaves, and the tree becomes without any leaves. How this happens? The same process. The sunshine produces so many things. Similarly, by the glance of the Supreme, the material nature becomes agitated and the three guṇas become manifest. In this way these are described there. The same process. How from the sunshine the leaves are coming out, what are the molecular changes, if you can study the same process.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: (indistinct) . . . with this hiraṇmaya, the relationship between mahat-tattva and the hiraṇmaya is clear, then I think at least we can have some idea. So we are little confused on this very point, that it is also said pradhāna is the twenty-four elements that doesn't contain time.

Prabhupāda: Pradhāna is the ingredient.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, it is the sum total of the unmanifested material elements. Now from pradhāna actually mahat-tattva is manifested. In mahat-tattva there is a basic difference that there is some . . . already some manifestations in mahat-tattva.

Rūpānuga: Categories.

Prabhupāda: Total material elements, mahat-tattva.

Rūpānuga: Is that differentiated?

Prabhupāda: Mahat-tattva is differentiated.

Rūpānuga: Different categories?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, the time element is there in mahat-tattva, so it is already twenty-five elements there including time. At this stage also, the impregnation of the Lord's internal potency means that the jīvas are already impregnated here from pradhāna. So here the living entities are in pure goodness.

Prabhupāda: The living entities are always in pure goodness. This material covering is separated. The living entities can be freed from material covering at any moment. Just like water and oil, it is always separated—it does not mix. The Vedic mantra also says, asaṅgo 'yaṁ puruṣaḥ. Actually, it is not mixed, but it is covered. Such covering can be taken away at any moment simply by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). I think in First Canto, that description you try to understand, you'll get.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now in the First Canto in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also it is not very clear.

Prabhupāda: Then Second Canto, the development of sṛṣṭi-tattva, there you'll get.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think there is also reference in the Bhagavad-gītā, this Hiraṇmaya, because sometimes it's also called Brahman.

Prabhupāda: Brahmajyoti. What?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Brahman.

Prabhupāda: Brahman, yes. He's called Hiraṇya-garbha, Brahmā.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Hiraṇya-garbha. It's also said in this state, pradhāna state, the cause and effect are not clearly manifested.

Prabhupāda: Caitanya caritāmṛta, did you refer nityānanda-tattva?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, I haven't studied that yet.

Prabhupāda: Read it, you'll get clue there. Maybe in the Third Chapter. Bring up here. We shall . . . first part, take it.

Rūpānuga: Ādi-līlā?

Prabhupāda: First part, take it.

Bṛṣākapi: Chapter Three?

Prabhupāda: In Muslim country, Christians, or the Americans preaching Hindu religion, it has been taken very seriously in Iran. Three different elements: preaching center is Muhammadan, and the preacher an American, and the cult Hindu. (laughs) So the princess of Iran and her husband, they are, up to date, they are very much appreciating. The daughter of Shah.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: What is the verse, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: No, you read the Contents.

Rūpānuga: Or the index maybe.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No.

Prabhupāda: No, the Summary.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Chapter Three. "In this chapter the author has fully discussed the reason for the descent of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, after displaying His pastimes as Lord Kṛṣṇa, thought it wise to make His advent in the form of a devotee to explain personally the transcendental mellow reciprocations of service and the love between Himself and His servants, friends, parents and fiancees. According to the Vedic literature, the foremost occupational duty for humanity in this age of Kali is nāma-saṅkīrtana, or congregational chanting of the holy name of the Lord. The incarnation for this age especially preaches this process, but only Kṛṣṇa Himself can explain the confidential loving service performed in the four principal varieties of loving affairs between the Supreme Lord and His devotees. Lord Kṛṣṇa therefore personally appeared, with His plenary portions, as Lord Caitanya. As stated in this chapter, only for that purpose did Lord Kṛṣṇa appear personally in Navadvīpa in the form of Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja has herein presented much authentic evidence from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and other scriptures to substantiate the identity of . . ."

Prabhupāda: You are reading Caitanya Mahāprabhu. About Nityānanda, see the Contents? No, in the beginning. Chapter where is Contents. Nityānanda-tattva.

Rūpānuga: "The Glories of Lord Nityānanda-Balarāma."

Prabhupāda: Fifth Chapter?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah. "This chapter is chiefly devoted to describing the essential nature and the glories of Śrī Nityānanda Prabhu. Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa is the Absolute Personality of Godhead, and His first expansion in a form for pastimes is Śrī Balarāma. Beyond the limitation of this material world is the spiritual sky, paravyoma, which has many spiritual planets, the supreme of which is called Kṛṣṇaloka. Kṛṣṇaloka, the abode of Kṛṣṇa, has three divisions, which are known as Dvārakā, Mathurā and Gokula. In that abode that Personality of Godhead expands Himself into four plenary portions—Kṛṣṇa, Balarāma, Pradyumna (the transcendental Cupid) and Aniruddha. They are known as the original quadruple forms. In Kṛṣṇaloka is a transcendental place known as Śvetadvīpa, or Vṛndāvana. Below Kṛṣṇaloka, in the spiritual sky, are the Vaikuṇṭha planets. On each Vaikuṇṭha planet a four-handed Nārāyaṇa, expanded from the first quadruple manifestation, is present. The Personality of Godhead known as Śrī Balarāma in Kṛṣṇaloka is the original Saṅkarṣaṇa (attracting Deity), and from this Saṅkarṣaṇa expands another Saṅkarṣaṇa, called Mahā-Saṅkarṣaṇa, who resides in one of the Vaikuṇṭha planets. By His internal potency, Mahā-Saṅkarṣaṇa maintains the transcendental existence of all the planets in the spiritual sky, where all the living beings are eternally liberated souls. The influence of the material energy is conspicuous there by its absence. On those planets the second quadruple manifestation is present. Outside of the Vaikuṇṭha planets is the impersonal manifestation of Śrī Kṛṣṇa, which is known as the Brahmaloka. On the other side of the Brahmaloka is the spiritual kāraṇa-samudra, or Causal Ocean. The material energy exists on the other side of the Causal Ocean, without touching it. In the Causal Ocean is Mahā-Viṣṇu, the original puruṣa expansion from Saṅkarṣaṇa. This Mahā-Viṣṇu places His glance over the material energy, and by a reflection of His transcendental body He amalgamates Himself within the material elements. As the source of the material elements, the material energy is known as pradhāna, and as the source of the manifestations of the material energy it is known as māyā. But material nature is inert in that she has no independent power to do anything. She is empowered to make the cosmic manifestation by the glance of Mahā-Viṣṇu. Therefore the material energy is not the original cause of the material manifestation. Rather, the transcendental glance of Mahā-Viṣṇu over the material nature produces that cosmic manifestation."

Prabhupāda: So you try to understand this, everything will be clear. Material energy has no power to create. It is this glance that makes material energy energetic. Chemical combination, that alkaline and acid, they create some agitation, effervescence, but it is done by the chemist. He mixes the two liquids, and there is effervescence. It is like that. So you read that chapter carefully, you'll solve your problem.


Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's said in the mahat-tattva when the Lord glances or impregnates, that the glancing . . .

Prabhupāda: That is spiritual.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, it's still spiritual.

Prabhupāda: That glancing is spiritual. So matter itself cannot do anything. Aja-jala-stana, it has been given. Aja-jala-stana, the nipples in the throat, neck. As there are some nipples, nipples useless, that is not milk-giving nipples. So nature is creating. They, generally, they say: "By nature," but nature has no power. It is matter. When there is glance of Saṅkarṣaṇa or Viṣṇu, that will do.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: In that state, when a living entity's impregnated in this state, it is also said that it is in pure goodness.

Prabhupāda: Pure goodness always. It is simply covered.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is not the completely manifested yet, but then it says by the contamination of pure goodness by ahaṅkāra, then starts material ego. From there, everything is going to manifest. So once we come to material ego then it seems clear.

Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Find out, puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara:

puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi
bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān
kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya
(BG 13.22)

"The living entity in material nature thus follows the ways of life, enjoying the three modes of nature. This is due to his association with that material nature. Thus he meets with good and evil amongst various species."


Svarūpa Dāmodara: How does the contaminated ego or contaminated consciousness differ from false ego?

Prabhupāda: Hmm? That is contaminated ego, false ego.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But we have a subdivision in the Third Canto for internal subtle senses. It is said mind, intelligence, ego and the contaminated consciousness, and this ego is false ego, and another division is contaminated consciousness.

Prabhupāda: This is false ego, "I am this matter. I am this body." This is false ego.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, but why it is . . .

Prabhupāda: Ego is there, but this is false ego.

Rūpānuga: Then by association with the modes there is contaminated consciousness.

Prabhupāda: This false ego develops.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But still in this verse on Chapter Twenty-six, verse fourteen, it says there are four internal subtle senses. Now these four senses are mind, intelligence, ego and the contaminated consciousness.

Devotee: Is that real ego, the soul?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But how can it be the senses?

Rūpānuga: Here we are.

mano buddhir ahaṅkāraś
cittam ity antar-ātmakam
caturdhā lakṣyate bhedo
vṛttyā lakṣaṇa-rūpayā
(SB 3.26.14)

"The internal subtle senses are experienced as having four aspects in the shape of mind, intelligence, ego and contaminated consciousness. Distinctions between them can be made only by different functions, since they represent different characteristics." Purport: "The four internal senses or subtle senses described herein are defined by different characteristics. When pure consciousness is polluted by material contamination, and identification with the body becomes predominant, this is called false ego. Consciousness is the function of the soul, and therefore behind consciousness there is soul. When consciousness is polluted by material contamination, this is called ahaṅkāra."

Prabhupāda: Bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān. The same thing. Puruṣaḥ prakṛti-sthaḥ bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān (BG 13.22).

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Is this ego mentioned here, is it a false ego? That's what I understand.

Prabhupāda: Not real. Real ego is "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa." Ahaṁ brahmāsmi.

Rūpānuga: Is there false ego in different modes? Like false ego in the mode of ignorance, false in the mode of passion or goodness?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rūpānuga: So the consciousness can be contaminated according to the mode in which it's associating.

Prabhupāda: Yes, prakṛti-jān guṇān.

Rūpānuga: Yes. So I am identifying with my body in any mode, that is false ego. But my consciousness is contaminated by a particular mode—may be passion, may be ignorance, may be goodness. So then my consciousness is contaminated. So false ego is the base of all material activities, but I may be acting in a certain mode, contaminated in a certain way. Is that right?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rūpānuga: That is what it means.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Everything clear, these four internal subtle senses?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rūpānuga: What else you got?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually, consciousness is a symptom of life, so when we say contaminated consciousness, the quality of life is there, but somehow that . . .

Prabhupāda: That is mixed with material modes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Rūpānuga: Originally it is goodness. Very . . . pure goodness, you say. Originally in the beginning is . . .

Prabhupāda: I give the example, just like water falling from the sky. It is crystal clear, distilled water. But as soon as touches the earth, it becomes muddy. But that muddiness can be filtered.

Rūpānuga: Plus muddiness is the character of the mud, not the consciousness. And it can be cleansed, filtered out.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that filtering process is devotional service. So unless the water is different from the precipitated matter, how it can be filtered?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So far we are concerned, prakṛti is clear, but the source of prakṛti is little, ah . . . so we'll try to . . . we want to show this, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in our chapter on some sort of creation, creation of material manifestation.

Prabhupāda: You'll get this from Second Canto.

Rūpānuga: Second Canto. That's that "First Step in Self-Realization" chapter?

Sadāpūta: Fifth chapter, sixth chapter—two chapters.

Prabhupāda: Atra sargo visargaś ca (SB 2.10.1), that verse, Second Canto, you find out.

Sadāpūta: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Is matter generated within a given body, like the body of a human being? While it's living, is matter generated and annihilated within that body during the time of life?

Prabhupāda: Body is matter. Whole body is combination of matter.

Sadāpūta: Right. But does the living entity within, or the Supersoul . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, within.

Sadāpūta: Does it generate matter, so say the body could get heavier or lighter because of that?

Prabhupāda: Because the living entity is there, matter is generated. Just like a tree, living entity is there, and big log, wood, is generated.

Rūpānuga: Like that stone. That stone is increasing its weight, so when someone goes to see the stone he sees, ah, the stone is bigger and heavier also. So that increased material or matter that makes up the bigger size of the stone, is that matter being generated from the soul?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rūpānuga: From the spirit soul. So spirit soul has power . . .

Prabhupāda: Mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate.

Rūpānuga: Ah!

Prabhupāda: Similarly, from the spirit soul everything has come out.

Rūpānuga: So spirit soul can create matter.

Prabhupāda: Actually, from life matter is generated.

Rūpānuga: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: Not from matter life is generated. That is wrong.

Sadāpūta: There are some people who have done measurements and . . .

Prabhupāda: Measurement is there in the Vedic literature, Upaniṣad, Purāṇa.

Rūpānuga: Is it that the living entity, when he creates this matter to expand, like the stone is growing, does he manufacture this material from the etheric platform, or does he . . .

Prabhupāda: According to his desire he can.

Rūpānuga: Simply by desiring.

Prabhupāda: What is that one verse? Icchā dveṣaḥ samutthena sarge yānti . . .

Rūpānuga: There have been some . . . modern scientists have done some experiments showing that in the soil there are organisms, micro-organisms and earthworms, that can produce chemicals, increasing just simply by their presence.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I have given that example; already he has mentioned.

Rūpānuga: Pasteur?

Prabhupāda: No, no, this lemon.

Rūpānuga: A lemon tree.

Prabhupāda: A lemon tree is producing chemicals.

Sadāpūta: Some people would say the lemon tree was simply taking food and rearranging it to produce the lemon juice.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But the tree is the source, but everything is there in the earth. But God's creation is so nice that through the tree the chemical is coming. The chemical is there in the earth, but the seed of the lemon tree, when it grows, it extracts the particular type of chemical.

Sadāpūta: We were wondering then if also it could produce matter, instead of taking from the earth and rearranging it.

Prabhupāda: No, earth is the source of everything. Sarva-kāma-dughā mahī (SB 1.10.4), you get from . . . actually you are getting all chemicals from the earth.

Rūpānuga: So they are already there.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rūpānuga: Created by Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The . . . (indistinct) . . . is there.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: He's trying to mention an experiment in science. There's a man called . . .

Prabhupāda: That is your duty, to mention . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: He tries to show that the living system . . .

Prabhupāda: No, if we can see practically different seeds are exacting different color, different flavor, different chemicals. Everything is coming from the earth, sarva-kāma-dughā mahī. Everything is coming.

Rūpānuga: So the plant . . .

Prabhupāda: Simply outside arrangement, how to take it.

Rūpānuga: So in other words, the tree or the plant in agriculture takes the chemicals from the soil and . . .

Prabhupāda: The seed, as soon as come in touch with the earth, the seed exacts particular chemical and everything from there. This is the arrangement.

Rūpānuga: So that spirit soul in the seed, he is not creating anything; he is taking.

Prabhupāda: Spirit soul, according to his karma, takes shelter of the situation. But the seed, the chemical composition, exacts the desired.

Rūpānuga: It's all Kṛṣṇa's arrangement.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: Can the seed do that without the spirit soul being present within the seed?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Hari-śauri: Can the seed extract anything without the spirit soul being present there?

Prabhupāda: No. Seed is instrumental. Just like you have to do something, you require an instrument. Actually, according to the desires of the living entity, he's given instrument, bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā (BG 18.61). Yantra. You require something, you require a particular yantra or machine. So seed is practically the machine, and the living entity is using it to satisfy his desires.

Hari-śauri: So that growth of matter, that's the matter is coming from outside, and the spirit soul is simply taking it and expanding his body.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Sadāpūta: Is earth still being manifested from ether? Like the description in Bhāgavatam is from sound, and then through different elements finally down to earth. Is that still happening today?

Prabhupāda: Every . . . always happening. Nature's law is going on.

Sadāpūta: Yes. So what I was wondering, is like earth still being manifested in living bodies from sound and so on, like the chemists . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. The process is going on. I've described. That is going on.

Rūpānuga: So the spirit soul is in the seed, and the seed interacts with the other chemicals to make growth. So if the chemicals are not there in the earth, then that seed cannot make those chemicals.

Prabhupāda: No, chemical is there in the earth. According to the seed it is exacted. Just like a chemist will analyze or they separate the ingredient, so much this percentage, so much that percentage, so much that. Everything is there. Similarly, within the earth everything is there. The seed is the instrument and the living entity is the exactor—what is that? Exactor?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. He's executor.

Rūpānuga: He takes, utilizes.

Prabhupāda: Utilizer. Bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān (BG 13.22).

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Extracts.

Rūpānuga: Extracts from.

Prabhupāda: Extracts.

Rūpānuga: Suppose like now, just like this Vedic injunction against artificial fertilizers in the soil, suppose, as modern farmers are doing, they use this artificial fertilizer and the soil becomes depleted in certain minerals.

Prabhupāda: That means artificial is the same principle. You are living entity; by artificial fertilizer you are exacting something from the earth, the same principle.

Rūpānuga: Now suppose we take so many chemicals from the earth and they may become a little depleted. Can those chemicals be replaced by the earth itself as the ongoing process of nature?

Prabhupāda: Everything is coming from the earth.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is . . . Sadāpūta has an interesting point in science itself, that somebody tried to show that in the living body, when the life is within matter, the, ah, it doesn't follow the conservation of matter. Science, one of the basic principles of science, is that . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. All the living conditions are there in the matter, provided there is the living being, that's all. Just like a dead body, it is not that the living condition is finished. No. The living conditions are there. That particular soul has left that body, but the dead body is also full of ingredients of living condition. So many germs are coming out when the body is decomposed. You say decomposition, but even in that decomposed condition there is living condition. So the living conditions are already there, matter in any form. So how these rascals say there is no life in the moon planet? That is not possible. The living conditions are always there in the matter. This is the example. Now, a decomposed body, the living being has left, now it is dead matter, but still, the living beings are coming out. How it is? That means matter has always the potency to give shelter to the living entity. So it is impossible that there is no living being in the moon planet. It is bogus. We cannot accept it. Any condition there is provision for the living beings. We see actually, in the earth, in the air, in the water, in the fire, these five elements. Whatever you take, these five elements in different proportions. So the living . . . just like from perspiration living entities come out. It is impossible there is no living entities. That is bogus complete. You can challenge like that.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The living entities that they are familiar with.

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Kūpa-māṇḍūkya-nyāya, again. They know some certain type of living entities, that's all.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they think that all the living entities would be like that.

Prabhupāda: That is their kūpa-māṇḍūkya-nyāya, Dr. Frog. But the fact is, any condition of material existence, there is possibility of living entity there. Sarva-ga, sthāṇur, acalo'yaṁ sarva-ga. Everywhere there is living entity. It is impossible to conclude that on other planets there is no living entity. It is not possible.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Is it possible to do some experiments?

Prabhupāda: You experiment. You see a dead body. It is obnoxious smelling, but living entities coming.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, to show that matter is generated by life, we want to do some experiment.

Prabhupāda: That is there. Every day we are experiencing, huh? Just the same seed, and a living entity comes and it becomes a tree and it grows, big tree, huge body. And as soon as it is dead, the body is not increasing. This is experiment. (break)

Rūpānuga: You mean two things. You mean that . . .

Prabhupāda: Everything is coming from life. Kṛṣṇa says—He's the supreme life—He says, mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate iti matvā bhajante māṁ budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ (BG 10.8). He's the origin of everything, both matter and life, everything. So matter also coming from life, life is also coming from life. Therefore life is the original source of everything. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). So janmādy asya yataḥ is life. That is explained in the Bhāgavata. Janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ. That source of everything is life and is fully conscious of everything what is happening. Anvayāt, indirectly and directly, fully conscious. That is life.

Rūpānuga: So that matter is coming from Kṛṣṇa originally.

Prabhupāda: Everything is coming from Him.

Rūpānuga: Then the spirit soul, he has his activities, and he's active and the matter . . .

Prabhupāda: He may be inactive, but his subtle desires is active. That is creating. Matter is supplying, that is pradhāna of life.

Rūpānuga: So he creates the situation for the matter, but he doesn't create the matter itself.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He wants, "I want this," and God is there, He asks material energy to supply the ingredients, and he creates the different situation. (break) That's all.

Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Thank you very much, Prabhupāda.

(indistinct comments) (end)