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760530 - Conversation - Honolulu

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

760530R1-HONOLULU - May 30, 1976 - 60:34 Minutes

Devotee: . . . also.

Prabhupāda: So, little distant, no?

Devotee: It's a little distant is the only problem.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And there are several other advantages.

Devotee: But I suggested that Jayatīrtha would be responsible as GBC.

Prabhupāda: He was responsible.

Devotee: Well, I agree. Well, I can come . . . I have never been GBC for Hawaii.

Prabhupāda: No?

Devotee: I've never been GBC here. Bali-mardana was GBC, and then after that time it was never resolved who would be GBC. But Sudāmā was here, and you told him to go direct to . . . (indistinct) . . . so I never suggested that I become the GBC, because it was . . . (indistinct) . . . more and more territory. Otherwise I would have been more concerned. (break)

Prabhupāda: Anyway, do something. Nothing happening, that is not very good.

Devotee (2): Now they have a responsible president . . .

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee (2): There is a responsible president here, who will not be so whimsical . . . (indistinct)

Devotee: Hawaii was never part of the western zone; it was always separate. Gaurasundara was here, it was separate. And then Bali-mardana was here

Rāmeśvara: No, Gaurasundara was the GBC secretary.

Devotee (2): No, before his time.

(indistinct conversation between devotees) (break)

Prabhupāda: Don't sell the bigger one.

Rāmeśvara: The question is, if it is to be distributed in India, should we insert the Sanskrit, because in India, if it does not have Sanskrit, it may not be taken as authority.

Prabhupāda: No. No. That is not.

Rāmeśvara: That is not necessary?

Prabhupāda: No. Sanskrit is meant for the scholarly person, not for general public. And especially in the Western countries, if they see Sanskrit and the transliteration, they take it very seriously. (break)

Rāmeśvara: Just as it was, without any Sanskrit or any transliteration—just the verse and the purport?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And some pictures.

Rāmeśvara: And we will include pictures, in color.

Prabhupāda: I think there is no purport . . . or verse. You have no copy of Gaura-līlā?

Rāmeśvara: Copy of the original? Abridged addition?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: Yes, we have copy.

Prabhupāda: So there is no verse?

Devotee (2): There is verse in English.

Rāmeśvara: In English. There is translation and then purport, some purport.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, but no verse. There's no verse in there. The verses are not there. There is straight translation and purport.

Rāmeśvara: Oh, I see, yes. Straight translation and purport.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you want me to have traveling saṅkīrtana party in India now?

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) The family members are compared with the foxes and jackals.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They are all a liability?

Prabhupāda: No. In the forest, when you are attacked by foxes and jackals, they take away your flesh and bones. My children are like that. And the senses are compared with the—what is called—dacoits, plunderers. Actually that is a fact. The senses . . . suppose a man is born in a rich family. To take birth in rich family is due to past pious activities. So pious activities means performing sacrifices, rituals—these are pious activities. So as a result of pious activities . . . it is sounding too much. Why? How before it was not sounding?

Devotee (2): We'll keep the curtain open. (break)

Prabhupāda: In this bank.

Devotee (2): No, no, no. That is in the German bank. Seven hundred thousand.

Prabhupāda: Seven hundred thousand. Marks?

Devotee: Right. Two hundred and eighty thousand dollars. Approximately.

Prabhupāda: So we cannot withdraw that?

Devotee (2): No. It is in a fixed deposit in a bank account, but we can't withdraw it, but there's things to show that we can be able to get it.

Prabhupāda: Oh. We cannot spend it?

Devotee (2): Not yet. But at least the police are not holding it any more.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Back in our . . . (indistinct) . . . in India . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: So at least the money is safe now.

Devotee (2): Sounds that way. But if it is in a fixed deposit, then we can also use it actually.

Prabhupāda: No. Fixed deposit for month, one month, so that we are not losing the interest. Fixed deposit means there is interest.

Devotee (2): Right.

Rāmeśvara: Also credit from the printer. He will see that we have the money in the bank. He will give us credit again, so we can print books in Germany.

Devotee (3): How's Gaurasundara? (break)

Prabhupāda: If he surrenders, then there is no question of arrest.

Devotee: Yes, that is what they are arranging.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Devotee (3): He said there won't be any problems. They can arrange it. They are going to talk to the prosecuting attorneys and set up a trial date and then leave it up to him. As long as he agrees to come back for the trial date. One of the questions that he had was that he wanted to know exactly what he and Brahmānanda should do. Should they . . . he knows that you want joint management in Europe, and he wants to know whether . . . he is going to call back on Monday. He wants to find out by that time whether he and Brahmānanda should take full charge of London, Paris and Germany, or what should be done.

Prabhupāda: What is Haṁsadūta's desire?

Haṁsadūta: Well, I thought I would go back and go to Germany and see the situation with Brahmānanda.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He has to go. So, when he has to go?

Devotee (3): He said it wasn't fixed yet. But he was meant to let Haṁsadūta know as soon as it was fixed up.

Prabhupāda: Until we think of the proper situation, there should be a man there. Then let Haṁsadūta go and see the situation in Germany . . . then we decide.

Devotee (3): He said that Brahmānanda's willing to stay there and manage if you want him to. He said in that report that he was ready to come to Los Angeles immediately if you wanted him to stay there.

Prabhupāda: That I know what I have said. First of all, let Haṁsadūta go there.

Devotee (3): And then I can discuss.

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, do you want me to . . . I get the impression from Paramahaṁsa that you wanted me to travel with you for some time.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That I want for everyone.


Prabhupāda: The tendency for becoming guru is there. But after all, every one of you should become guru. But why immature attempt? That is my question. Everyone will become guru when he is expert disciple, but why this immature attempt? Guru is not a thing, imitation. When one is mature, he becomes guru automatically. What is the answer to this, their making some attempt to become guru? I am training you all to become guru in the future. Now the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, the properties and everything, I will not take with me. They will remain where they are. It requires very mature treatment. But there has been some attempt to become guru immediately. Am I correct or not? Hm? We are also acting as guru. My other Godbrothers, they are also doing that. But we never attempted during the lifetime of our Guru Mahārāja. That is not the etiquette. It is an immature attempt. And it is not the thing that by artificial attempt one becomes guru. Guru is accepted by etiquette, not by artificial attempt. Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā (CC Madhya 7.128): "Follow My order and become guru." Not that you become guru.

āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa
yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa
(CC Madhya 7.128)

Hmm? You have to follow the paramparā system, order. That is guru. Not that I declare myself as guru. No. That is not guru. Guru is he who has strictly followed the order of the spiritual master. He can become guru. Otherwise it will be spoilt. Artificial attempt is not good.


Prabhupāda: Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādo (Śrī Śrī Gurv-aṣṭaka 8)—we are singing daily, hundred times. Guru means kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya (Śrī Śrī Gurv-aṣṭaka 7). Do you understand all these lines? You sing daily, thrice. Do you understand the meaning of these words? Can anyone explain?

Devotee (3): Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya—"The spiritual master is very dear to Kṛṣṇa."

Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all one has to become very dear to Kṛṣṇa, then automatically he becomes guru. And when one becomes very dear to Kṛṣṇa, then he becomes guru, and by the mercy of such guru Kṛṣṇa becomes merciful. These are the statements of the śāstra. Ār nā koriho āśā. What is that, guru-mukha-padma-vākya?

Devotee (3):

cittete koriyā aikya
ār nā koriho mane āśā

Prabhupāda: Ār nā koriho mane āśā. Simply whatever you hear from the guru, try to execute it. Ār nā koriho mane āśā. Do not expect anything more. So whatever we are chanting, we are reading, we must realize that. The Gauḍīya Maṭha institution became a failure on account of disobedience and not following the orders. Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura's statement about the verse vyavasāyātmikā buddhir—find out this verse from the Bhagavad-gītā. The Caitanya-caritāmṛta statement, āmāra: one can become guru by the superior order.

Devotee (3): Shall I read it?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (3):

vyavasāyātmikā buddhir
ekeha kuru-nandana
bahu-śākhā hy anantāś ca
buddhayo 'vyavasāyinām
(BG 2.41)

"Those who are on this path are resolute in purpose, and their aim is one. O beloved child of the Kurus, the intelligence of those who are irresolved is many-branched."

Prabhupāda: And the purport?

Devotee (3): "A strong faith in Kṛṣṇa consciousness that one should be elevated to the highest perfection of life is called vyavasāyātmikā intelligence. The Caitanya-caritāmṛta states:

'śraddhā'-śabde viśvāsa kahe sudṛḍha niścaya
kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya
(CC Madhya 22.62)

"Faith means unflinching trust in something sublime. When one is engaged in the duties of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he need not act in relationship to the material world, with obligations to family traditions, humanity or nationality. Fruitive activities are the engagements of one's reaction from past good or bad deeds. When one is awake in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he need no longer endeavor for good results in his activities. When one is situated in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all activities are on the absolute plane, for they are no longer subject to dualities like "good" and "bad." The highest perfection of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is renunciation of the material conception of life. This state is automatically achieved by progressive Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The resolute purpose of a person in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is based on the knowledge (vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ) (BG 7.19) by which one comes to know perfectly that Vāsudeva, or Kṛṣṇa, is the root of all manifested causes. As water on the root of a tree is automatically distributed to the leaves and branches, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness one can render the highest service to everyone—namely self, family, society, country, humanity, etc. If Kṛṣṇa is satisfied by one's actions, then everyone will be satisfied."

"Service in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is, however, best practiced under the able guidance of a spiritual master who is a bona fide representative of Kṛṣṇa, who knows the nature of the student and who can guide him to act in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. As such, to be well versed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness one has to act firmly and obey the representative of Kṛṣṇa, and one should accept the instructions of the bona fide spiritual master as one's mission in life. Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura instructs us, in his famous prayers for the spiritual master, as follows:

yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādo
yasyāprasādānna gatiḥ kuto 'pi
dhyāyaṁ stuvaṁs tasya yaśas tri-sandhyaṁ
vande guroḥśrī-caraṇāravindam
(Śrī Śrī Gurv-aṣṭaka 8)

"By satisfaction of the spiritual master, the Supreme Personality of Godhead becomes satisfied. And by not satisfying the spiritual master, there is no chance of being promoted to the plane of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I should, therefore, meditate and pray for his mercy three times a day, and offer my respectful obeisances unto him, my spiritual master."

"The whole process, however, depends on perfect knowledge of the soul beyond the conception of the body—not theoretically, but practically, when there is no longer chance for sense gratification manifested in fruitive activities. When one is not firmly fixed in mind . . . one who is not firmly fixed in mind is diverted by various types of fruitive activities."

Prabhupāda: These artificial attempts to become guru is not the platform of guru. Do you all realize this now? Hm?

Devotees: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Just like this Bal Yogi Guru Mahārāja. That kind of Guru Mahārāja anyone can become; it is not very difficult. But really guru is not like that. That is evaṁ paramparā viduḥ. Evaṁ paramparā . . . eh?


evaṁ paramparā-prāptam
imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ
(BG 4.2)

Prabhupāda: Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. Through the paramparā. Hmm? Imaṁ vivasvate yoga proktavān aham (BG 4.1). So the training period to attempt to become guru, that is not very good etiquette. That is artificial. At least officially during the lifetime of guru, nobody should attempt like that. The disciple should always remain as perfectly subordinate and be disciplined. Disciple means one who is being disciplined. That is disciple. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He is God, Kṛṣṇa; still He said, guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana (CC Adi 7.71): "My guru, seeing Me a fool number one, he has chastised Me." Now who can chastise Kṛṣṇa, Caitanya Mahāprabhu? But that is the way of disciplic succession. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, guru more mūrkha dekhi. Who can be guru of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and who is actually His guru who will say Caitanya Mahāprabhu is a fool? But He said that guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana: "My Guru Mahārāja found Me a fool number one, and therefore he has chastised Me." This is the position of disciple. So one who is always prepared to be chastised by guru, he is eligible to become guru.

So these attempts are being done, just like Gaurasundara told that, "Why should I live under the subjugation of these people? Let me go away, to become a guru." Similarly Sudāmā. This attempt will not be successful, but there is some attempt like that. What can be done? Such attempt will never be successful, but there are some attempts like that. (break) What is your answer?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I think that everybody should resolve not to do it in any form at all. I have heard similar . . . I have heard this type of complaint from other places also, where some other devotees have tried to call themselves some type of a guru. Whenever I heard that, I have been very disturbed.

Devotee (2): Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is desiring to be lower than the straw in the street.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Devotee (2): Caitanya Mahāprabhu is desiring to be lower than the straw in the street. So for him to desire to be guru, that is not in line with Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I am just trying to clarify—I don't want to offend anyone—but no disciple of yours should call himself dīkṣā-guru or śikṣā-guru. Am I right?

Prabhupāda: Well, everyone is engaged to become śikṣā-guru, but one should become perfect. The attempt is—what is called?—probationer. When probationer period is finished, then he is naturally, automatically, bona fide guru. Not in the probationer period. That is immature attempt. That will failure. Āmāra ājñāya (CC Madhya 7.128), Caitanya Mahāprabhu said: "By My order." So all my disciples are expected to become śikṣā-guru on my order, not by his own order. That is meaning that I am giving sannyāsa, I am sending you to different places, so this means that you have to carry out the order of the guru very strictly; then you become mature. Otherwise it will be artificial attempt, and that kind of guru will not help. Just like there are so many gurus and avatāras and yogīs are coming. For time being there is some culture, and what is the effect? Just like this . . . what is that?

Devotee: Guru Mahārāja?

Prabhupāda: No, no. Guru Mahārāja is later than that. Before that?

Devotees: Maharishi Yogi!

Prabhupāda: So what is the effect?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No one talks of him now.

Rāmeśvara: No. He is making big business.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Rāmeśvara: He has made his guru into guru business, big business. His men go to the college wearing tie and suit, and they initiate the students for one hundred dollars. He is making millions of dollars by cheating, and making it into a big business. He gets one hundred dollars, and he gives them a special mantra, which is just one line of . . .

Prabhupāda: That he was giving beginning by thirty-five dollars. Now he has made it one hundred?

Devotees: Inflation! (laughter)

Devotee: The cost of being a guru has gone up. (laughter)

Rāmeśvara: We have one devotee named Bahulāśva, and his friend is working for this guru, this Maharishi Yogi. So he just got one letter saying that this cheating yogī, he went to Europe, and he has made millions of dollars by initiating students in the colleges there.

Devotee (3): Thirty-five thousand people.

Rāmeśvara: He said the letter—we do not know if it is true—the letter reported that thirty-five thousand people paid one hundred dollars to get some . . . to be cheated.

Prabhupāda: So who wrote you that letter?

Rāmeśvara: One friend of our devotee Bahulāśva.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The world of the cheaters and the cheated.

Rāmeśvara: He is very famous, because he presents his method as very scientific.

Devotee (3): You get a million-dollar grant from the government . . .

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee (3): Their group got a one-million-dollar grant from the US government, so they presented research showing how Transcendental Meditation helps one to relax. So there is a big problem in America, because everyone is very much in anxiety, and the government recognizes that, so anything that will help them relax, they think is very good.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It helps them get off drugs also. That's what the research showed.

Devotee (3): Yeah, one million dollars. He is very active on the college campuses; he is making great headway there.

Rāmeśvara: He is making millions of dollars just from the colleges.

Devotee: Every college has got very big displays.

Rāmeśvara: Posters. Posters of his Transcendental Meditation process.

Devotee (3): Very professional.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, in India they did some research on Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Transcendental Meditation, and they found out . . .

Prabhupāda: What is that Transcendental Meditation?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We don't know.

Devotee (3): It is just a mantra.

Rāmeśvara: Bahulāśva's friend told him that they are giving one line of the klīṁ gāyatrī mantra. He teaches them to chant the word klīṁ over and over again.

Prabhupāda: The chanting is there.

Rāmeśvara: For one hundred dollars they give you that word.

Devotee (3): Do they chant silently?

Rāmeśvara: They chant silently.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? What is that?

Devotee (3): They chant for thirty times in a day for a few minutes. They chant silently this mantra.

Prabhupāda: The chanting is there. So where is the difference between ours and theirs?

Devotee: Theirs is not given by a bona fide guru.

Devotee (4): They are also advocating meditating on void.

Rāmeśvara: The difference is that he does not give them Kṛṣṇa. He does not mention Kṛṣṇa. He tells them that they are all God. He has written a commentary on Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: Then why meditation if you are God?

Rāmeśvara: He is in the line of Śaṅkarācārya. He claims that he is coming from Śaṅkarācārya's disciplic succession.

Prabhupāda: Śaṅkarācārya says, bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ mūḍha-mate.

Rāmeśvara: They have a story that Śaṅkarācārya was not healthy when he said that. (laughter) That is their story.

Prabhupāda: God becomes unhealthy sometimes. (laughter) So what kind of God is he? If he is subjected to become unhealthy, like ordinary being, then what kind of God he is?

Rāmeśvara: But the reason it is popular is because each student gets to think that he can become God.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Devotee: You don't have to take it seriously. You don't have to give up anything.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee: There is no sacrifice involved, just a little money. They think it will help them develop something.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I have met several people who have left him and who have realized that he is a cheat. They make the initial commitment, but after finalizing they all realize that he is a cheat.

Prabhupāda: There are some like that?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, many!

Rāmeśvara: They do not consider him their spiritual master. The do not accept him as spiritual master. They do not surrender their life to him.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's just a business.

Devotee: It is a business where they are paying money to get a mantra. They do not accept him completely as spiritual master. And he is happy that way. No responsibility. He just takes their money.

Rāmeśvara: How old is he?

Devotee: He is old. He cannot even enjoy anymore.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He has his own jet plane.

Prabhupāda: Jet plane?

Rāmeśvara: He has his own jet plane. Yet he tells the college students that if you take this process of Transcendental Meditation then you will become more intelligent, your efficiency will increase, you will be able to get better grades. When you go into the business world you will be a big success. So he is holding that out in front of them, and they are all buying it. And that is his . . .

Devotee: It is compatible with sense gratification.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: You use it to increase your sense gratification.

Prabhupāda: Well that is very encouraging for materialistic person. If one is doing austerity, and is able to gratify your senses very nicely, then he is pleased.

Devotee: It appears he has some mystic power to make everyone . . . make them believe in him.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, that he has.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Like that Sai Baba in India. I don't know about him but I met a lot of people who think that he is an incarnation of God. They say that he has done some mystic . . .

Devotee (3): We met one fellow, he said he is Bhagavān. We said: "Bhagavān means all beauty." He said: "Yes." We said: "You call him beautiful?" (laughter) He didn't look very beautiful to me. (laughter)

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: About four days ago there was one devotee, Santoṣa. He is a Sanskrit editor. He was distributing books at Kennedy Airport, and one man walked up to him and said: "Hey, Kṛṣṇa is sitting in the Air India lounge!" So he went to the Air India lounge and there was an old Bengali sādhu. He did not even speak one word of English or Sanskrit. He had big beard and some ten, fifteen followers next to him, and one Indian businessman, and he was distributing chocolates to his followers. So Santoṣa went and sold him a book.

Rāmeśvara: Haribol!

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They were calling him to be Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Bala Yogi also said he was Kṛṣṇa.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But now his wife is suing him in the court. It was on television.

Rāmeśvara: Bala Yogi's wife?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Bala Yogi is being sued by his wife in the court. I don't know. Someone told me they seen on television. And also various other people had financed him earlier, now they are filing claims against him for the money. And I read in an Indian newspaper that the city of Lucknow has filed a claim against Bala Yogi because they put up his posters all over the city, and they ruined the city property. So they filed an eleven-thousand-rupees claim against him, and they will take them to court.

Rāmeśvara: He is not considered seriously, but this other, Maharishi Yogi, they take him as an important teacher. And with all the money he has made he has purchased one university in America.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Really?

Rāmeśvara: What is the name?

Devotee (3): Parsons University, in Iowa.

Rāmeśvara: He has purchased the whole university to teach his nonsense.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But the sincere souls realize that your movement is the only genuine movement.

Prabhupāda: They say?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The sincere persons realize that your movement . . .

Prabhupāda: But how many sincere persons I have got? (laughter)

Devotee: All your disciples!

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Even our sympathizers are advanced.

Prabhupāda: Do they speak anything about our movement? It is already known. What do they speak?

Rāmeśvara: They do not understand it.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Rāmeśvara: They do not understand it.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa movement?

Rāmeśvara: They do not understand our movement, the purpose of it.

Devotee: Balyogeshwar made one comment about our movement.

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Devotee: He said that, "They are actually my best disciples." (laughter)

Prabhupāda: He said?

Devotee: He said that, "They love me so much, and they don't even know who I am."

Rāmeśvara: Yes, he said that. I remember reading that in the newspaper. He claimed that Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees are his best disciples.

Devotee (5): They are his best devotees, but they don't know it yet.

Devotee: He thinks he is Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Best disciple does not know him? (laughter) And still he is best!

Devotee: He is saying that someday we will realize that he is Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Does anyone become disciple without knowing him? This is too much . . . then how we become best disciple without knowing him? (laughter) And these things are published. You see: people are so foolish. They have no brain to understand a sentence. He says: "They are my best disciples but they do not know me." This is very good argument?

Rāmeśvara: Nonsense. But his whole movement is nonsense.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Rāmeśvara: No one takes him seriously anymore.

Devotee: There was a fight between his mother and his brother on one side and him on the other side. His mother says he was becoming too Westernized and wanted to take him back to India, and he said . . . because he married that Western girl.

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Rāmeśvara: His secretary.

Devotee: And so they had a big fight. And his mother . . . his mother is actually the power behind him. She has organized everything, and the brother, the older brother. So I think they went back to India, and he remained here. But there's big disagreement . . .

Prabhupāda: He did not go. Somebody said that he will be arrested.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he can't go back because he ran away. They caught him smuggling about a year and a half ago. In fact there was an enquiry about this, how did he run away.

Rāmeśvara: The college students are a little afraid of us, because when they see us wearing the kurtā and dhotī, they think that that we are introducing something that is so different that they cannot relate to it. But these Maharishi Yogi people, they dress up in this Western clothes, with suit and tie.

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Rāmeśvara: That is why Satsvarūpa Swami and his party, they also dress up in Western clothes to distribute books to the colleges. Otherwise they are a little fearful that this is something quite . . . (break)

Devotee: The first time I ever saw the devotees I was shocked. (laughter) I just stood there and looked for five minutes.

Rāmeśvara: They are afraid because they think we are monks, and they do not want to be monks. They do not . . . they are not thinking how to become monks when they go to college. So when they see us, they are a little afraid. So we are distributing lots of literature on the campuses to give them the philosophy of the Vedas, then they will appreciate us. But just by our appearance they are afraid that we are a threat to their Western way of life, sense gratification.

Prabhupāda: The Ramakrishna Mission, they also dress like that, like sannyāsī.

Devotee: Only the sannyāsī generally dresses in Indian style, in the West.

Prabhupāda: No, no. They came to request me in the beginning that, "This dress will not appeal to them." If you dress like Devotee: (indistinct) . . . when I was in New York they told me.

Devotee: Nikhilānanda?

Prabhupāda: Nikhilānanda's men came to me, one Mr. Mukhal. So he said that, "This dress will not appeal. Dress like an American gentleman." So I said that "I am prepared to dress, but where is the dress? I am poor man. I cannot purchase." (laughter)

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He wanted you to wear a suit?

Prabhupāda: Yes. I told him that, "If you can give me at least four nice suits, I can accept." (laughter) I can change one every alternate day. Must be nicely ironed. I know how to use this dress. In my young business life I used to have it, (laughter) but now I have no money. But since the very beginning I never dressed like . . . I mean, Kīrtanānda Mahārāja . . . the same dress as I am telling you. You are not afraid of, of this dress.

Rāmeśvara: No. But to distribute our books sometimes, in order to approach people so that they will not . . .

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. That is another thing.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Devotees are now wearing suits and wigs and going to campuses and airports. They have already started doing that.

Prabhupāda: Hm. Silk?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They wear suits . . .

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . and wigs to go to airports and places where they don't want to be recognized.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. That is all right.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Going very nicely.

Prabhupāda: (someone enters) Mangoes? Good mangoes are coming nowadays.

Devotee (2): It is hot. Pretty good!

Devotee: Every morning there is a mango feast here.

Rāmeśvara: Haṁsadūta is the king. (laughter)

Devotee: King of the mangoes. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: "King of mangoes" means?

Devotees: He eats the most.

Prabhupāda: He is controlling the mango market? (laughter)

Devotee: No, Guru-krpa controls the market.

Devotee: It seems a little warm in here. Shall I open the window a little bit?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: Because we dress in the dhotīs, if they do not hear our philosophy, they think we are renouncing the world completely and have nothing positive to offer them. That is why we can introduce . . . if our writers for Back to Godhead become more expert, they can . . .

Prabhupāda: We are not renouncing. We are actually accepting. You are renouncing.

Devotee: We are accepting the real world.

Prabhupāda: No. We are accepting the Kṛṣṇa's society, or Kṛṣṇa's association. Kṛṣṇa has got His society in Vṛndāvana. We are going to become one of the members of that society. But you are avoiding it. So you are renouncing. Our mission is back to home, back to Godhead, to enter into the society of associates of God—but you are avoiding it. You do not want. You want this temporary so-called society, friendship and love, which will be finished within some years. That is your ignorance. This society will not stay. How long you shall remain American? You will not remain for many days. Then where is your position? You will be kicked out. However you may try to remain in this so-called society, friendship and love, you will not be allowed to stay. You will be forced to renounce. We are trying to enter into the society of Kṛṣṇa, where everything is eternal.

yad gatvā na nivartante
tad dhāma paramaṁ mama
(BG 15.6)

So which is better? Your so-called society cannot stay here, however nicely dressed with hats and coats and boots. You will be kicked out. Then where you will go? Ask this question to them. When they say something, you also say something. Why you are silent? Silent means accepting his proposal. Somebody . . . if I say something, if I say you are a thief but if you do not protest, if you remain silent, that means you are thief. This is the conclusion. If they say something, you say also.

Rāmeśvara: When we meet individual people, we can easily explain to them our philosophy.

Prabhupāda: That individual or collective, it does not matter. The argument is there. Suppose you want to stay in this dress, but you will not be allowed to stay. What is your answer? You will not be allowed. So you can be kicked out at any moment. In spite of your nice dress you will be kicked out. What is your answer to that?

Devotee: The medical doctors are working to extend our lifetimes longer.

Prabhupāda: "In future." Then again they say same.

Rāmeśvara: "There is nothing after death." They will say that . . . they do not believe in an afterlife.

Prabhupāda: An afterlife, that's all right. But you cannot stay in this dress. That is a fact. You will be kicked out in spite of your intention to stay. You again stay—you will be kicked out. Then how you are so confident? Nobody wants to be kicked out, but he is kicked out. So what is that course? You may think that there is no life after death, but you want to stay in this life to the last point. Even an old man, he does not want to die, but why he is kicked out against his will? What is their answer? Nobody . . . even the pig, in so abominable condition of life, if you go to kill him he will protest, scream, "No, no, no. Don't kill me, don't kill me, don't kill me." Why this protest?

Rāmeśvara: It is māyā.

Devotee (3): Kṛṣṇa's māyā.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's māyā is better, but what is the answer of this?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Everybody wants to live.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is a fact. But he is kicked out. Then why does he not consider what is that force, that I don't want to die, but I am obliged to die? Who is . . . what is that force? Everything finished after this. They say everything will be . . . but this force will not be finished. The force will remain. The other living entities will remain back. They will also be forced. The force is permanent.

Devotee: They say it is nature.

Rāmeśvara: Material nature.

Prabhupāda: That nature you may call any by name, but the force is there. So above you there is a force. That is a fact.

Rāmeśvara: They will admit that.

Devotee: They will admit.

Prabhupāda: Then so why they say that everything will be finished? The force will remain. Why do they say, rascals, that everything is finished?

Devotee: They say it for themselves or . . .

Prabhupāda: That is there, but others will see the force. The force will remain. Why they say that everything will be finished? What is the value of this statement?

Rāmeśvara: Their false egos. They have such big false egos that they are only thinking about their selves.

Prabhupāda: That is so. They have nothing—insignificant. But the force is very great. That will remain. So why do you say everything is finished?

Devotee: They don't have any experience of anything that's gone out of existence. Actually, in the material world there is no experience of anything going out of existence. Matter is always transforming and changing. That energy is changing into different kinds of energy, but nothing ever goes out of existence. So their theory is that they are going to go out of existence.

Prabhupāda: Changing, changing, changing—that is going on in you also. You have changed so many bodies, and still individually you are there. Changing is going on everywhere. That is our beginning of philosophy. The yoga-saṁyoga—you are getting one type of body, it is changing. In the process of changing, again you get another body, then that is also changing, changing. But you are there, permanently. In spite of all changes, you are there. Otherwise how you can know that my so many changes have taken place? I am there, because I am seeing the changes; therefore despite all changes I am there, the . . . (indistinct) . . . person. This is the conclusion. If you do not see changes, then what is the meaning of changes? (end)