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760512 - Morning Walk - Honolulu

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

760512MW-HONOLULU - May 12, 1976 - 30:43 Minutes

Prabhupāda: . . . made of grass?

Rādhā-vallabha: They make plastic grass.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Rādhā-vallabha: They make it out of plastic.

Prabhupāda: Even plastic, they can cover big land like this?

Rādhā-vallabha: Almost this big.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They cover football fields. They can cover big areas, but it's artificial. (break) . . . flowers also.

Prabhupāda: You take. (break)

Rādhā-vallabha: . . . shopping centers, they also make plastic trees.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Rādhā-vallabha: In the big shopping centers they have plastic trees growing.

Prabhupāda: Grown?

Rādhā-vallabha: They don't need any water.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They don't grow. (break) . . . say, though, that "We don't want to enter into a religious, philosophical discussion. Simply we are trying to improve the standard of life."

Prabhupāda: What improvement you have done? What improvement you have done? I do not wish to die. Can you help me? Then what improvement?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: What improvement?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But we can make it more comfortable.

Prabhupāda: My father died, his father died, his father died, so I'll die, my son will die. What improvement you have done?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We can make it more comfortable to die.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Peaceful death. This will be accepted by rascals. That's all. If I am going to die, where is comfort? Death is comfortable?

Rādhā-vallabha: My mother is a nurse, and she told me that she's seen many people die, and she said, "It is very nice. It is very peaceful."

Prabhupāda: Your mother is also peaceful?

Rādhā-vallabha: She's dead. (laughter) I went to see her when she was dying, and I told her that "Now you should chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, because you're going to die." She said, "No, I am not ready. I'm going to fight it." But she lost the fight.

Hari-śauri: (to passerby) Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Rādhā-vallabha: Another girl went to see her mother when her mother was dying, and she told her mother, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," and her mother said, "Shut up," and then died. (break)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . . that because we don't accept their scientific achievements as being worthy, for example, in medicine, and things like this, they will say that our argument is one-sided. Just like that Dr. Wolfe. He was thinking like that.

Prabhupāda: What is one-sided?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, we simply say that the scientists have done nothing good to further human cause.

Prabhupāda: No, we don't say that. We say that you take credit as far as you have been successful. Why do you say there is no God? We protest against that. (break)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . . there's a God, then they won't be making so many materialistic arrangements.

Prabhupāda: You don't require it. (break) . . . so many materialistic improvements, we require open field like this. We require trees. That is nature's gift. Although we have got this car, we come here to take advantage of nature's gift. Why you have come here? The city was there. I don't like. So actually you enjoy nature's gift. Important persons, they work whole week in the city, and as soon as there is weekend they go to the village. Why? The enjoyment is in the village. They do not like to stay in the factory. It is disgusting. (break)

Śukadeva: . . . just like sleep. And just like when we're sleeping it's very comfortable, then why should we be afraid of dying? It's very comfortable. Death is just like sleep. When we're sleeping we feel . . . (indistinct) . . . so why, then, we should be afraid of death?

Prabhupāda: But you are actually afraid. Why? You say, you are a great philosopher: "Why should we be afraid?" But if I kill you, immediately you cry. Why? Don't cry. Let peacefully die. I kill you. Why do you protest, "This man is killing me, killing me! Save me! Save me! Save me! Police! Police! Police!" Why? Die peacefully. I am helping you to die peaceful. Why you make me criminal? (break) . . . says, "Thou shall not kill." If killing is peaceful, dying is peaceful, why He has prohibited?

Śukadeva: Even though you may kill me, we still don't mind that.

Prabhupāda: No, I am not so fool I am going to kill you. That is an . . . the business. But you die peacefully. Let him throw in the sea. Die peacefully.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In other words, they are theorizing that "Death is a very peaceful state of sleeping. Why are we protesting so much?"

Prabhupāda: But that is not sleeping. After sleeping you have to awake, and you have to bark like dog, "Give me food. Gow! Gow! Gow!" You are not going to sleep after death. You are awakening like a dog, and bark and disturb others. That is your mistake, that you are sleeping forever. No sleeping. You have to wake up again. (break)

Rādhā-vallabha: . . . told me that he was . . . he said that spirit and matter are the same. So I grabbed him and threatened to punch him in the nose. He said, "No, no, that is different." (break)

Śukadeva: So if we have to wake again, then there's no really . . . why should we have to stop birth and death?

Prabhupāda: So you have no experience? Do you sleep perpetually, whole day and night? Why do you wake up? Is it not your experience that you sleep at night and wake up at daytime?

Śukadeva: Yes. But if I'm going to wake again, then why should I want to stop it? I go to sleep; I wake up.

Prabhupāda: No, but your waking . . . you are going to wake up like a dog. That is the . . . (indistinct) . . . you sleep perpetually . . . not perpetually, for seven months, and then you wake up as a dog. The body is changed. And go on barking. That you do not know. That is ignorance.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's amazing. You go to sleep in a human body, and you wake up in a dog body.

Prabhupāda: Ah, that's it. What is this conglomeration? (laughter) (break)

Śukadeva: . . . wake up the next morning. I am not afraid to go to sleep because I know that I will wake up. So if I'm going to die and I know that . . .

Prabhupāda: Die means you sleep as a man and wake up as a dog. That is dying.

Śukadeva: But it is okay to be a dog. It is okay to be a dog.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But if you are so foolish that it is okay to be dog, then it is very nice.

Hari-śauri: But if we live forever, then where's the harm in changing bodies a few times? We can enjoy in all different kinds of bodies and have a good time whilst we're here. And if we're eternal, then what is the big rush to get out?

Prabhupāda: That is going on. For the foolish person, it is going on. (break) . . . land there is? (break)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . . farms all over the world, even in India, they have to irrigate the land.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They have to irrigate the land artificially like this. Either they dig a ditch and they pour water into the ditch by some method, or sprinkling like this. So in a society where everyone is God conscious, Kṛṣṇa says how He supplies the rains. Was there any need even for such irrigation?

Prabhupāda: Irrigation?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Irrigation means digging a hole beside where the vegetables or grains are growing. Or will the rain just fall from the sky naturally?

Prabhupāda: You have to work. Otherwise . . . this is material world. Without working, you cannot get anything. (break) . . . between material world and spiritual world. In the material world you have to work to get your necessities. In the spiritual world there is no need of working. (break)

Rādhā-vallabha: . . . talking about the spiritual world is pie in the sky. They say that we should just talk about how to take care of things here.

Prabhupāda: You cannot take care. There are so many problems. You cannot take. You are simply crying, "The problems are there. Problems are there."

Rādhā-vallabha: Then they will say, "Well, how will talking about the spiritual world help solve the problems here in the material world?" (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . concerned with the material world, you remain. (break)

Rādhā-vallabha: . . . put out by the karmīs, and it is a book on how to become peaceful and happy, and it shows pictures of dogs and cats sleeping, and it says, "This is how you do it. You should lie down like this, and everything will be all right."

Prabhupāda: The dog is lying peacefully because he has got sense that "I have got a good master." Therefore he is sleeping. They do not sleep peacefully without master. (break)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . . Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that the scientists have been proven guilty. Now we have to decide what their punishment should be.

Prabhupāda: Nature will punish them. (break)

Śukadeva: . . . kind of programs should we develop to defeat the scientists? Just like we distribute books in the street. A lot of times the scientists may not get some of these books.

Prabhupāda: Defeat is that "You are scientist. I don't want death. Please stop it." Ask him. "I don't want disease. Please stop it. Then you are scientist. Otherwise I kick on your face."

Śukadeva: Should we go to the colleges and universities and make programs?

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) . . . these rascals are being controlled at every step; still they are thinking independent. That is the difficulty. They are being kicked in every moment, and still they are thinking, "I am free."

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Everyone is following the scientists, too.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Everyone is following the scientists.

Prabhupāda: Not everyone. We don't follow. You may follow.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Rādhā-vallabha: One professor was telling me that he didn't think you should write about all these things about the universe in your books, because none of the scientists will believe it. So I told him that all the scientists were hogs, dogs, camels and asses, and he became enraged, and he left.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But it's not so unbelievable.

Prabhupāda: And what is, the scientists will not believe? We say, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13): "As the child is becoming boy, boy is becoming . . . similarly you have to change body." What scientist has to challenge this? But they are obstinate dog. Dehāntara-prāptiḥ you have to accept. Can the scientist say, "No, no, no, the child is not going to be a young man or a boy"? Can he say like that? Then why they challenge unnecessarily? They are changing the body. Can the scientists stop it? But if they are unreasonable dogs, then what can be done? What argument will reach them? A dog cannot understand.

Rādhā-vallabha: Just stick.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, they will not understand even with stick. You see? They are less than dog. Bhagavad-gītā says, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13), very simple argument, that "As the child is becoming boy, boy is becoming young man, young man is becoming middle-aged man, and middle-aged is becoming old man, similarly, you are changing body." So where is the difficulty to understand? But they are so obstinate rascal, they will not believe. As soon as the child is dead, does he become boy?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: So what is that? What is the scientists' reply?

Rādhā-vallabha: They say he's dead.

Prabhupāda: So why dead?

Rādhā-vallabha: They say the brain and the heart stopped working.

Prabhupāda: So you replace it, rascal.

Rādhā-vallabha: "We're working on it."

Prabhupāda: There are such . . . obstinate dogs. (break) . . . difficulty. Mūḍha. They are mūḍhas, and they will continue to remain mūḍha. Then how you can make him enlightened? They cannot answer properly. Why a dead child born does not grow, does not change body? The body is a lump of matter. Analyze the body. Where is life? These are all very reasonable. But they will not. Dog's obstinacy. How you can convince them? Simply waste of time, talk with them. Therefore they should be neglected.

Rādhā-vallabha: They did one experiment where they took a . . .

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Rādhā-vallabha: They did an experiment where they took an embryo of a child, and they put it in a test tube, large bottle, and they were growing it by feeding it, and it just turned into a shapeless blob.

Prabhupāda: So why did you take embryo from the child? You make embryo. You cannot make even an egg which can be . . . give a chicken. So to waste time with these rascals is very difficult.

Śukadeva: Such programs are minimized in the temple. Should there be a college program in each temple? Or should everyone just work along with the BBT Library Party? Should there be a college program?

Prabhupāda: No, it is useless to talk with them. If you can peacefully sell some books, that's all. Don't enter into very long arguments, because they are all rascals. They cannot understand. Better peacefully, as far as possible, sell some books. Dante nidhāya tṛṇakaṁ padayor nipatya kāku-śataṁ kṛtvā ca . . . (Caitanya-candrāmṛta 90). This is the process. They cannot understand that because there is soul within the child, therefore child is becoming boy. As soon as there is no soul, the child does not become a boy. This simple philosophy they cannot understand, so what is their position? Now, this car is standing because there is no driver. Anyone can understand. Stand still. It will remain there for thousands of years unless a driver comes. Simple reason. But they are so rascal, they will not understand. So what is the use of talking with them? Simply waste of time.

Śukadeva: So these people cannot be converted.

Prabhupāda: That is a fact. The dog cannot be converted. But we have to do it with stick. (break) . . . that a dead child can be brought scientifically into life and he will grow, and still, they'll argue. So what is the use of argument with these rascals? When they are caught up, that "Do this," "Yes, we shall do in the future," and "What about the present?" there is no answer.

Hari-śauri: Everywhere we see millions and millions of different types of bodies are all growing, there's living force there, but still, they haven't been able to find it, and it's there all the . . ., everywhere, surrounding them. So what kind of scientists? (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . provement. Have you improved this, that a dead body can be brought into life by scientific arrangement? And still, they'll say "improvement." What improvement? Simply dry talks. That is science? (break) (in car) First subject matter for scientific advancement: that there is soul within the body. On account of the presence of the soul, the body is changing. So the soul is different from the body. This is the first education of scientist. But they have avoided this major . . . they simply bluffing people, "We have discovered this . . ." What you have discovered? Discover this: what is the principle within the body? Real discovery, they are not interested. They are bluffing. They are fools, making others fools and going on as scientific advancement. First of all answer this.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (aside) Rādhā-vallabha Prabhu . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Can you challenge, "Do this first. What is your science? This is rascal science. You give up the major problem; you are making research how many atoms are working. What you will do by understanding atoms are going?"

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Because it's very difficult to . . .

Prabhupāda: Difficult? Then you are not scientist. You cannot touch the difficult problem. Childish thing, you are bluffing children, that's all. You have no power to tackle the difficulties. You cannot give life to the dead body. (break)

Hari-śauri: But if we don't make the research, then how will we ever know?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Hari-śauri: If we don't make the research, then how will we ever solve these problems?

Prabhupāda: Then you are . . . as soon as you say "making research," then you are not perfect. Don't say that you are scientist. You are student. Don't say that you are scientist. And you are declaring, "There is no authority, nothing." Why do you speak all this nonsense? Because you are not scientist. You are making research. That's all right. When you complete your research—you come to the conclusion—then call yourself as scientist.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Put them in their place.

Prabhupāda: Why, as a student, neophyte, you are claiming as "scientist"? Why misleading people? You do not know anything, how things are going on, and you are claiming you are scientist. Our point is, "Don't do this, misleading propaganda. You are not scientist. We protest against this false propaganda. Why you are making . . . you do not know anything. You cannot solve any problem, major problem, so why you are claiming as scientist? Stop this, as a gentleman." (break) And there is the soul within the body, and when the soul is gone, transferred to another body, it is dead. Dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). One who is actually scientist, he is not surprised. He knows the soul has transferred to another body. That's all. That is scientist. (break) . . . real scientist, not a rascal like you. We don't take. (break) You cannot act. We accept Kṛṣṇa as scientist because He explains. You cannot explain. How we can accept you as scientist? You are rascal. Up till now, nobody was able to explain—simply vague. How we can accept these vague explanation as scientist? And daily changing, every year new theories. And I have to accept you scientist? Kṛṣṇa said tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13) five thousand years ago. It was known very well, and it is going on. That is science. You cannot give any solution, you are changing your ideas and theories every year, and we have to accept you as scientist? (break) . . . speaking something, and I have to accept him as scientist? Madman, crazy fellow, saying something today, saying something other, next day.

Hari-śauri: In Māyāpur you gave that Bengali proverb, "A madman, what he cannot say? A goat, what he cannot eat?"

Prabhupāda: Yes. (chuckles) (break) They are afraid. Stop disease, stop old age, stop birth, stop death. (break) . . . the major problems, and you call yourself . . . (break)

Śukadeva: . . . the most important thing. Why should we . . .

Prabhupāda: Ah. That proves that you are a rascal number one. These are not important things. Why do you keep memory of so many dead men in statues? It is not important thing. He has died. Died. That's all.

Śukadeva: They say that being able to work on all of our practical problems in the material world . . .

Prabhupāda: And this is practical. You make something that nobody will die.

Śukadeva: But a lot of them already admit that there's nothing we can do about death.

Prabhupāda: Then don't call yourself scientist. The problems are there. You cannot solve them. (break) . . . intelligent way of defeating so-called scientists. (break)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You are asking us to make solution . . .

Prabhupāda: That is my problem. If anyone can solve this problem, I will call him scientist. That is everyone's problem. The art is, they are trying to remain young, especially the ladies. And still, the scientist cannot stop this, that "No more becoming old, old." Then where is your improvement? You have invented some cosmetic. You apply it, and your, what is called, hollow cheek will be swollen up.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, in London recently, just like they have plastic grass, they have plastic trees, they have a plastic woman.

Prabhupāda: That is all right, but the plastic woman will not satisfy me.

Rādhā-vallabha: They have operations.

Prabhupāda: Simply rascals, that's all. Better not to talk with, that "You are rascal number one. I don't want to waste my time. When you make solution of these problems, then we shall talk. Now go on researching and befool your followers that in future you'll get it." That's all. (break)

Rādhā-vallabha: . . . cut incisions on their face and take out fat and tighten the skin and then sew it up again. And they say this makes them beautiful.

Prabhupāda: That is so long he is living. Can you do it in the dead body? Then where is the solution? (break) . . . condition you can do that. That is not in your hand. Living condition is not in your hand. You'll depend on some superior arrangement. Why do you take credit? You do this in a dead body, then . . .

Rādhā-vallabha: When they bury the dead bodies they put make-up on the face and make a nice smile, so people can see the dead body is happy.

Prabhupāda: Let the scientists be happy by seeing dead people. (end)