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760505 - Conversation - Honolulu

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

760505R1-HONOLULU - May 05, 1976 - 28:41 Minutes

Bhūrijana: (offers obeisances)

Prabhupāda: So I was talking with Siddha-svarup. So while you are all here, so what is the reason . . . (indistinct) . . .? We should work conjointly.

Bhūrijana: And . . .?

Prabhupāda: Jointly work. Don't make division.

Bhūrijana: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: What is the misunderstanding, settle up. This way.

Bhūrijana: I spoke to him a bit last night, and he said, "If my instructions contradict Prabhupāda's . . ."

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Bhūrijana: He said to me last night, "If my instructions to you . . ." something like that, "contradict Prabhupāda's, then don't follow my instructions." (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Who said?

Bhūrijana: That's what he said. I mean, if he . . .

Prabhupāda: I do not understand.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If he said that to Bhūrijana that, "If my instruction is contrary to Prabhupāda's instruction, then don't follow my instructions," that is to say that either he thinks that his instruction is the same as yours, or his instruction is different from yours and is not . . . (indistinct) . . . so far as . . . I spoke with Gurukṛpā Mahārāja, who's supposed to be GBC for Hawaii. He said that he has deviated. Siddha-svarūpānanda Mahārāja has deviated. He has created a faction. And we're working together in ISKCON. So many individuals, we're working together to please Prabhupāda mutually.

Bhūrijana: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So it's up to Siddha-svarūpānanda Mahārāja's group to set the same standard that everyone has to accept.

Bhūrijana: That seems to be the . . .

Prabhupāda: Now they are working together. Why Siddha-svarūpā Mahārāja cannot remain here?

Bhūrijana: I think he thinks everyone is in māyā, I think.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It doesn't matter what he thinks. He's a disciple of Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . (indistinct)

Bhūrijana: Yes. He causes trouble to Prabhupāda is not good.

Prabhupāda: The Siddha-svarūpa group, they do not like to say clear. Is it not?

Bhūrijana: Yeah, I see that. Very clearly I see that, yeah.

Prabhupāda: So? What is the reason?

Bhūrijana: What is the . . .?

Prabhupāda: That I have already explained.

Bhūrijana: So would you like me to do anything? What would you like me to do? I know I don't want to be independent.

Prabhupāda: Why you are inclined to follow Siddha-svarūpa, your wife and you? What is special attraction?

Bhūrijana: I think we needed . . . we needed some . . . we couldn't always be corresponding with you. I needed some personal instruction, so I took it.

Prabhupāda: So first of all tell what is the special attraction. Your wife said that their instruction is very clear. So what is the distinction between clear and ambiguous? What do you find ambiguous and what do you find clear? What is that?

Bhūrijana: I think the part I found clear is the more introspective points about humility, and changing one's desire . . .

Prabhupāda: Humility means not to follow the instruction of guru? That is not . . .?

Bhūrijana: No, that is not humility.

Prabhupāda: Then I'm asking you what is the special attraction. You say that . . . your wife says it is very clear. What is that clear and ambiguous?

Bhūrijana: You mean what is ambiguous on . . . I mean, what is she saying that is ambiguous, or what . . .

Prabhupāda: No. You say that is very clear what others are telling you. Now what is that ambiguous, what is that clear?

Bhūrijana: The clearness may be a deeper understanding to want to be humble. A deeper understanding to want to . . .

Prabhupāda: Humble, but if you do not follow your spiritual master's instruction, if you follow others, then where is the humbleness? You say yes. This is yes, this is yes . . . (indistinct) . . . you said that your wife says that what Siddha-svarūpa says, it is very clear and easy, and others are not so clear. Is it not? What is that clear Siddha-svarūpa says, and what is not clear?

Bhūrijana: He says chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: So who says that you don't chant?

Bhūrijana: Maybe the emphasis wasn't so much on the chanting, even though everyone says harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21), everyone just chants their sixteen rounds a day, chants a half hour ārati in the evening and half hour ārati in the morning.

Prabhupāda: So what do you want more? What is your program? Twenty-four hours?

Bhūrijana: I like more kīrtana than that.

Prabhupāda: So you don't like to sell books.

Bhūrijana: No, I think I like very much. I mean, I think I would like to.

Prabhupāda: So what is difference?

Bhūrijana: Between selling books and kīrtana?

Prabhupāda: No, no. Between others and you. Where is the difference? Why don't you point out that, "This is the point, we differ." What is that point?

Bhūrijana: Well maybe the point about more kīrtana or less kīrtana.

Prabhupāda: So if you chant more, is there objection?

Bhūrijana: No.

Prabhupāda: Then where is the objection? Has anyone objected, chant more?

Bhūrijana: No.

Prabhupāda: Then where is the objection? What is the point of difference?

Bhūrijana: I think there's no point of difference.

Prabhupāda: Then why do you say that we find these instructions more clear?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You say that there's no point of difference, but then you choose that his instruction is more clear. There's some contradiction.

Bhūrijana: It's just that emphasis that was given to Hari . . . to chanting.

Prabhupāda: What is the difference?

Bhūrijana: For myself, I know I was off track, and I know that in my heart I built up an enmity towards your disciples and thinking that they . . . that by their distributing books they were making people angry at Kṛṣṇa and . . .

Prabhupāda: That is the real point. That is the real point.

Bhūrijana: That's what I felt. See, when I was in Hong Kong, people I would meet, they used to yell . . . people, they'd yell at me, "What have you done to Kṛṣṇa?" Some Indians used to say that. People we'd meet, they'd tell us they see the Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees and they hate Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct)

Bhūrijana: Well, this was . . . I remember one specific time when I was speaking to one businessman who was helping us and . . .

Prabhupāda: He said that, "We hate Kṛṣṇa"?

Bhūrijana: No, no. He said that, "Your members of the Hare Kṛṣṇa, they're making people in Australia hate Kṛṣṇa. They make people inimical." Making people inimical to Kṛṣṇa.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They feel threatened simply that we're preaching something which will discourage their sinful way of life. Therefore they feel threatened. Not they're hating. It hurts. Their argument is that because of our strong emphasis on preaching and book distrubtion, they say therefore that the mass of people, they have a bad impression of Kṛṣṇa.

Bhūrijana: And also because . . .

Prabhupāda: Because we are selling books.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Because we're selling books.

Bhūrijana: Not so much the selling books. Maybe because of the emphasis on taking . . . how much money can be taken. Like if someone says on the street, "Please give me a donation." So they give him a donation. "No, you must give more," and more and more. So the people think that the devotees are only interested in getting money, and they get a bad impression that ISKCON is a money-making movement.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We're selling one half a million large-size books each year.

Hari-śauri: The thing is that the materialists will always point out that they see the devotees, and we say that we renounce everything, but they don't understand that renunciation means to take everything and give it to Kṛṣṇa. So when . . . just like that time there was such a great commotion when we hired that Rolls Royce to take Your Divine Grace from the airport to the temple. So in the papers they didn't put anything that you said. They simply put "His Divine Grace is arriving in a Rolls Royce," like that. So this is the general attitude of the common mass of people.

Prabhupāda: That is envious. So if they sell books, so that is making Kṛṣṇa unpopular?

Bhūrijana: But one must learn to be a good book salesman, I think.

Prabhupāda: But selling book, Kṛṣṇa, does it mean that the booksellers are creating unpopular opinion? Does it mean?

Bhūrijana: Automatically, no.

Prabhupāda: When you say that they're making enemies because they're pushing the sales, what is the wrong there? Actually, I can so far understand that you do not like to sell books, or you cannot sell books.

Bhūrijana: Actually, I've never really tried.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Bhūrijana: I've never really tried, 'cause I was in . . .

Prabhupāda: Tried?

Bhūrijana: I've never attempted very much.

Prabhupāda: Those who are selling books, you think of them they're not very advanced.

Bhūrijana: Errm, I don't think they can do it for very long.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Bhūrijana: I don't think that they can continue for a very long time if they are not advanced.

Prabhupāda: But actually they're doing. So why do you say they cannot continue long?

Hari-śauri: No, he's saying that if they weren't . . . that they must be advanced, actually, if you look at it in the proper perspective. For those that were continually distributing, then the . . . (indistinct) . . . it's obvious that they must be advanced. Otherwise one could not do it for a very long time.

Bhūrijana: When people . . . also it used to make me angry when people would collect money for . . . using lying terms, I mean say that they're collecting money for the welfare center here, or to feed the children here, or to bus the children there, and they'd collect money like that, but it wasn't very straightforward.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda has many times given the instruction to the devotees that we should try as much as possible to distribute the books on their own merit. (break) . . . wanting this knowledge.

Bhūrijana: But they . . . (break) . . . so much of the collecting was collecting, not distributing books.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, but the point is that Prabhupāda's instruction is there.

Bhūrijana: But all the devotees want to hear is Prabhupāda also says "by hook or by crook."

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes it may be required to interest someone in a book, that they may find out their interest. Just like people are interested in philanthropic activity.

Prabhupāda: Just like our . . . what is his name?

Hari-śauri: Tripurāri? (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Some lady inquired, "Is there any instruction about this power shortage?" "Oh, yes." (laughs) So she purchased, and the next day she said: "There is nothing about power shortage." So suppose Tripurāri has sold one book. The lady inquired, "Is there any Vedic instruction about power shortage?" And he said: "Yes." So you think it is wrong. That is your version.

Bhūrijana: I think a simple lie like that is not bad.

Prabhupāda: But a devotee's view is that whatever may be her inquiry, if she purchases one book, she'll be benefited. This is the point. But you, as big moralist, you, (laughs) you think that he has cheated. He has not cheated. He has benefited her, that somehow or other he has given a book to her. Someday she'll read and she'll benefit. But you people, you think no why we should sell like that, that "Yes, there is solution of power shortage." Actually there is, but you think that he has lied. Just like there are . . . sometimes the father's child is suffering from fever. So the father wants that the child may take the medicine and promises, "You take the medicine. I'll give you this cake." The purpose is not to give the cake, a cake. The purpose is the child may take the medicine. That is the purpose. But when the father promises that, "If you take the medicine I'll give you this cake." But cake is dangerous for the child who is suffering from fever, but still the father allures him, "If you take the medicine and I'll give the cake." So is the father wrong or right?

Bhūrijana: No.

Prabhupāda: So similarly, similarly, if somehow or other one can sell one book to a person, it is good for him. Don't take how he is selling, but he's giving the book to that person and he's paying something, and that is good. But big moralist, they cannot understand. They'll see, "Why the father has spoken lie to his son? He's not a good father." They'll mistake. Father is always friend. Father cannot be enemy. But for the benefit of the rascal child sometimes he has to say like that, that "If you take the medicine I'll give you this cake." So those who are mundane moralist, they cannot understand these things, because they are mundane platform. The another example is that Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja. He was asked by Kṛṣṇa that, "You speak lie to Dronācārya that, 'Your son is dead.' " Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja refused. For this he had to see hell. He was more moralist than Kṛṣṇa. For this moral activity he had to visit hell. This philosophy cannot be understood by neophyte devotees. Our purpose is . . . why we are pushing, so much giving stress on books? Because our missionary activities will be very widely known. That we want. Somehow or other let him purchase a book. That is our mission. There is no question of transgressing moral principles. Just as Arjuna did. Arjuna was arguing with Kṛṣṇa that, "This killing of my relatives, it is very abominable. Better I beg and maintain myself than I kill my relatives and become a king." Did he not say? So that is ordinary man's argument. But as Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja refused to speak lie . . . so, and Arjuna, in spite of his conviction that "It is sinful to kill my relatives," he still agreed to kill. Why?

Bhūrijana: That is supreme moral, Kṛṣṇa's desire.

Prabhupāda: What Kṛṣṇa desires, if one does, he's above all this material. But it should not be manufactured. The thing is that, "Our spiritual master wants to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and he has repeatedly stressed to distribute books, we shall distribute books by any means," that is good. That is good. And if you become moralist that, "Oh, they're taking this means, that means for selling of book, so I'm big moralist. I'm bigger than him."

Bhūrijana: I don't think there is so much enmity because of the books themselves.

Prabhupāda: No, I think that . . . I do not know what they are doing, but I have information that they're not selling books.

Bhūrijana: Some, I think. I think some.

Prabhupāda: But not . . .

Bhūrijana: Comparable amount. Certainly not.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Others who were transgressing the moral principle, they were selling more books.

Bhūrijana: Much more.

Prabhupāda: And those who are big moralists, they could not.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're also distributing one pamphlet printed by Siddha-svarūpānanda. And then if they like, then they can buy one of Prabhupāda's books. Prabhupāda's book comes second.

Prabhupāda: Sometimes I've heard so many things.

Bhūrijana: But they give those away for free. I mean, just in the sense that someone maybe doesn't want to purchase anything, so they give him something for free about Kṛṣṇa.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: First they do that.

Bhūrijana: Only because it's free. Not that a . . . as far as I know.

Prabhupāda: They get knowledge free, then why they should purchase? If you give them the opportunity that we take material, knowledge free, then why they will purchase?

Bhūrijana: Like if we can become Kṛṣṇa conscious without following the rules and regulations, why follow the rules and regulations? That's what I was thinking a while ago.

Prabhupāda: They should follow what their spiritual master says. Book selling, there is no question of moral and immoral. We must sell. Just like in fighting. Where there is fight, the soldiers, to gain victory, there is no question of moral and immoral. He must gain victory.

Bhūrijana: Śrīla Prabhupāda, but I think the thing I understand least is that if they are not doing what you want . . . I mean . . . I'm sitting before you now, and you're telling me and I'm listening, and you are my spiritual master, and I must accept.

Prabhupāda: We want that book selling must be increased as much as possible. This we want. The same principle: let the child take medicine, never mind the father is speaking lies. That is . . . because as soon as he takes the medicine he'll be benefited. End justifies the means. End is that everyone should have a Kṛṣṇa literature. Doesn't matter what is the means. Because he has taken one Kṛṣṇa literature, that justifies everything. This is the principle.

Bhūrijana: How about the just collecting without giving any literature? Just collecting. Three months ago I saw it in Australia, with a lying line, too, I mean not telling the truth. And that wasn't very long ago.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . . (indistinct)

Hari-śauri: Sometimes the devotees just distribute with incense.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Hari-śauri: They go out and distribute incense.

Bhūrijana: Nothing.

Hari-śauri: They collect and distribute incense. Sometimes they don't distribute books.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And then maybe if they're having to pay off a loan on the temple. The general instruction is there, and all the devotees are well aware of it, that Prabhupāda's books have first priority. Everyone knows it. The consciousness is there. It's not a consciousness of not giving anything and taking.

Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda's point is that if you see fault with the method of implementing the spiritual master's instructions, you'll fail to follow the instructions.

Prabhupāda: No, the point is not that they have not done any wrong. Don't think like that. But my point, that is, my instruction is the books must be pushed.

Bhūrijana: I understand. In other words, if you think they're doing it wrong, you do it better. If you see the wrong thing . . . but do it. Make sure you do it, but do it better without the wrong, then.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhūrijana: I feel that this is . . . huh.

Prabhupāda: Besides that . . . (end)