760422 - Conversation B - Melbourne
Prabhupāda: . . . but they do not change the body, and . . . (indistinct) . . . immediately they are lost. That they do not know how to keep clean. So in India there is no question how to keep clean. They do not know. They'll not take bath for days together. And he likes stop bathing, so many germs carrying. And he's a first-class person, sāhīb, on account of the wealth. Last maybe. First-class. Don't take bath, neither wash their mouth or hand. And that is . . .
Hari-śauri: That habit is spreading. I've seen in India. Even the Indian businessmen that come to see you . . .
Prabhupāda: They are imitating.
Hari-śauri: Yes. It's laziness.
Prabhupāda: But you see. I take little medicine and wash hand. But you don't learn it. You remain the same. You have to . . . (indistinct) . . . I show example, but you don't do it. What can I do?
Hari-śauri: We're learning.
Prabhupāda: I do not know how long you'll learn.
Hari-śauri: (laughs) It's like you said in Māyāpur, it's a little artificial for us. It's very . . . it's not . . .
Prabhupāda: Cleanliness unknown to the Western countries.
Hari-śauri: That's a fact.
Prabhupāda: Śaucam. Satya-śaucābhyām. Śaucam means cleanliness. The Western people, they do not know what is cleanliness. And therefore brāhmaṇa's another name is śuci, "always clean." Three times bathing, three times changing cloth. It doesn't matter, loin cloth, but cloth must be changed.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Outer cloth?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Dhoti, like that?
Prabhupāda: No, you take bath, you have to change your cloth—it becomes wet. This is cleanliness. Satya-śaucābhyām. Śamena damena brahmacarya, tapasā brahmacaryeṇa (SB 6.1.13). Tapasya, the first beginning of tapasya, is brahmacārī. Yamena niyamena vā tyāgena satya-śaucābhyāṁ yamena niyamena vā. This is human life, tapasā, brahmacaryeṇa, śamena, damena vā (SB 6.1.13), then truthfulness, cleanliness, controlling the senses. So these things are required. Otherwise what is the difference between dog's life?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: People don't see what the gain will be. If one . . . people don't see, in Western countries, or appreciate what the gain will be by exerting much effort in these ways.
Prabhupāda: That they do not know, what is the real gain. They think this body is the gain only. And beyond this body there is another gain. That is not known. They do not know even. That is the defect of their civilization. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). They are taking care of the body, but beyond the body there is something else, which is eternal. Even after the annihilation of the body, it does not become destroyed. That they do not know. There is no education. There is no research. There is no college. There is no science to understand. And that kind of taking care of the body, a dogs know. Sometimes the dogs, they rub their body on the ground like that. That . . . that makes them rejuvenated. Horse also do that. So how to take care of the body, they know in their different method. But that is known to them. If before the horse you give them some meat, they'll not take. And give them peas, they'll take immediately.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Give them milk?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Milk?
Prabhupāda: No, meat.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Meat. He will not take.
Prabhupāda: And the dog, you give fruit, he'll dislike. Give him rotten meat, he can take. So there is difference between dog's life, horse life, even in animals.
Hari-śauri: They know how to look after their bodies.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So then the argument that animals have no intelligence . . .
Prabhupāda: And what is your intelligence? You are using the intelligence for the same purpose. And what is the use of your intelligence?
Hari-śauri: It's just a waste.
Prabhupāda: No, no. If animal has no intelligence, you have no intelligence. What you are doing more than the animals? That we are protesting that, "Why you should remain in the animal intelligence?" That is our propaganda.
Hari-śauri: If you can't prove yourself capable of taking use of better facility, then again you get less facility.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You explained very nicely how these boys and girls, they will sit on the floor. What is the need to manufacture chair? So a civilization which is geared to unnecessarily increasing the necessities is simply glorified . . .
Prabhupāda: Wasting time.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That is not the real business of human life.
Prabhupāda: But they are thinking, "This is advancement. To sit on the floor is primitive, but to sit on the chair is civilized."
Hari-śauri: Well, when we were on the plane in the first class, we were eating with our hand, and I could see, these men, they were eating with knife and fork, and they were looking like this. And they were . . . I could see what they were thinking. They were disgusted, "Here are these men, sitting in first class, eating with their hands, very primitive and crude." And they're eating with knife and fork, and I was thinking, "What are they eating? Some beef or some meat preparation, like this." But they're thinking they're civilized.
Prabhupāda: Then why? Why?
Hari-śauri: Yes. "Because I have knife and fork, now I'm civilized."
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I remember when I first went to Vṛndāvana and I saw in the villages how they were using dirt and charcoal to clean their pots and pans . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes, they use it.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I thought they . . . it was my condition . . . I have never seen before. I thought, "What is this? They are making their pots and pans dirty?" Because, you know, we're so accustomed to detergents and soaps, and you have to have so many things to clean.
Prabhupāda: That is not also properly clean.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.
Prabhupāda: The down side of the pan remains black. But if you take some dirt and rub it nicely, it become glisten.
Hari-śauri: Dirt is very first-class for cleaning.
Prabhupāda: Utensils for cooking purpose must be very, very clean. The . . . if the black portion remains, in India they will not touch.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even on the bottom?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: On the outside?
Prabhupāda: They'll not touch: "Oh, it is still dirty." But our going on. What can be done? Where there is no cleanliness, little rubbed with soap, that is sufficient. What can be done? But that is not cleanliness. If there is a black spot on the . . . it has to . . . it will immediately be rejected. My mother used to see every utensil, whether there is any spot. The maidservant had to surrender. Examine. Then it is no spot, then it is finished. Otherwise she has to do again. Everything should be neat and clean. The kitchen should be very neat and clean, washed twice daily, opened nicely and smeared with water and gobar. And if you see the kitchen, immediately you'll feel comfortable. It is very cleansly prepared, then offered to the Deity, then you take, automatically your mind becomes cleansed.