760301 - Morning Walk - Mayapur
Prabhupāda: Atomic theory . . .
Acyutānanda: The atomic theory.
Dayānanda: What is the atomic theory?
Hṛdayānanda: Atomic . . . That everything is constituted of different atoms, and the ultimate truth is the atomic particle, and by different combinations of these particles, different material manifestations are produced, and there's no other cause except this endless combining of atomic particles.
Prabhupāda: Wherefrom the atom comes?
Hṛdayānanda: The atom is the eternal fact. It is inconceivable, or it's unexplainable, where it has come from.
Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of your explaining?
Prabhupāda: Then you prove yourself you are a rascal. Inexplicable? Why you are trying to explain?
Guru-kṛpā: "We're not explaining. We're just accepting it's a fact."
Prabhupāda: So everything is fact. But the real knowledge is to find out the source of the fact. That is real knowledge. Just like if we ask any gentleman—at least in India—for your identification, your father's name is required, your name of the village is required. If you go to the court, then such and such: father's name, such and such; village, this; religion, this; like this . . . So father . . . Why father's name? "What is the source of your existence? Wherefrom you are coming?" "I am coming from this family." So that is knowledge. Atom . . . Atomic theory is there in Vedic conception, paramāṇuvāda. Kaṇada, the great sage, Kaṇada, he gave this theory, Kaṇada. Paramāṇuvāda. Paramāṇuvāda. Paramāṇuvāda is accepted in Vedic philosophy also. But we know what is this paramāṇu also. Just like the sunshine. What is the sunshine? A combination of shining atoms. But we can see it is coming from the sun, incessantly coming. We can see. We can immediately say, "This is . . . The source is the sun." Similarly, the paramanu, the atoms, they are incessantly coming out. But wherefrom it is coming?
Guru-kṛpā: Does that mean that the atom is living entity?
Prabhupāda: Eh? No. Living entity is also atom. One class of atom is matter, and one class of atom is the living entity. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca (BG 7.4). These are . . . This material . . ., matter, everything is combination of atom, atomic particles. Either you take earth or take water or air or fire, everything is combination of atom. That's a fact. But we know that these atoms are coming out as the energy of Kṛṣṇa. Bhinnā. Bhinnā means the quality different; not of the same quality. Apareyam: "This is inferior quality, but there is another, superior quality, jīva bhuta, and that is living entity." So two kinds of atoms are coming from Kṛṣṇa. One is the spiritual atom, and the other is the material atom. So spiritual atoms, they are many, many times greater than the material atoms. And these material atoms is this universal . . ., innumerable universes. Some of the spiritual atoms, when they want to enjoy independently, they are given the chance of enjoying this material atom. So in the material world it is combination of material and spiritual atoms. In the spiritual world, there is no material atom; everything spirit. That is three-fourth energy, and this is one-fourth energy. Paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham (BS 5.35). (break)
Guru-kṛpā: If we say that Kṛṣṇa enters even within the atom, what is His business there?
Prabhupāda: Business is to guide the rascals like you. (laughter) Do you follow or not?
Guru-kṛpā: Well, the material atoms . . .
Prabhupāda: Because Kṛṣṇa loves you so much that even you accept this material atom, He goes to help you. Therefore He is within. Because sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭhaḥ (BG 15.15). The living entity has a . . ., enjoying this material world. So he has got everything. He's a person. He has got his heart. So in the heart there is Kṛṣṇa. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭho. You read Bhagavad-gītā. Why? Why He has . . ., sarvasya cāhām hṛdi sanniviṣṭho? Hmm? Who will say? Why He has . . .? Your question is "Why?"
Hṛdayānanda: Mattaḥ smṛtir . . .
Prabhupāda: Ah! Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam. He's always trying: "You rascal, why you are suffering in this way? Come back home." This is the answer. He's so kind. That is His kindness. Sarvasya cāhām hṛdi sanniviṣṭho mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15). We are talking of this philosophy, "How?" Kṛṣṇa is giving intelligence. Otherwise, how it is possible? The same thing, as we are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness by the dictation of Kṛṣṇa—Kṛṣṇa is asking, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ (BG 18.66)—so in the atom also He's doing the same business. Aṇḍāntara-sthaṁ paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham (BS 5.35). Now your question is answered or not? Eh?
Hṛdayānanda: Your question is answered?
Prabhupāda: Why He . . ., Kṛṣṇa is within the atom? That is answered or not? Wherever there is the living entity, Kṛṣṇa is there as friend. Sa-parna, sayujā. So, from the śāstra it is understood, as many material atoms are there, so many spiritual atoms are there. Now you can imagine how many living entities are there. (break) Physists, they have not been able to find out the spiritual atom. Therefore they are puzzled, and their scientific research is incomplete. But the Bhagavad-gītā gives them information, "You rascal, this is inferior. These material atoms are inferior." Apareyam. They'll not take it. Apareyam itas tu: "Besides this, there is another energy, spiritual energy." "What is that spiritual energy? We do not find." "You don't find? Why don't you see jīva-bhūta, these living entities?" But they are rascals. They will not see. They cannot understand what is this living entity, and Kṛṣṇa is saying, "Here is another atom. Apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parā." But the rascal will not take it. This is their rascaldom. Kṛṣṇa is giving them information, and still, they'll not take it. This is their dog obstinacy. Solution is there. They won't have to make very difficult research work. Here is information. But they will not take it. The atoms which you are studying, that is all right. That is material, apara, inferior. But there is another atom. And if you say, "What is that atom? We do not find," "Don't you find this living entity?" And still, they are . . . They say the problems are solved. Just see how foolish they are. He's seeing the living entity, and Kṛṣṇa is pointing out: "Here is the superior atom," and still they say, "We do not know." What to do with them? Eh? They cannot find out by their own research, and the information is there by Kṛṣṇa, and still they'll not take it. So, what is to do with them?
Dayānanda: We can show that they are fools by presenting your literatures, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Dayānanda: We can show that they are actually fools by . . .
Prabhupāda: No, no . . .
Dayānanda: . . .presenting your books.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Our Acyutānanda Mahārāja says . . . Eh?
Prabhupāda: What do you think?
Acyutānanda: I couldn't follow.
Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda said, "What should we do with these scientists? They won't accept Kṛṣṇa's knowledge that there is a soul . . ."
Prabhupāda: They are find . . ., researching atom. They could not come to the ultimate conclusion. And we say that this atom is energy, but it is inferior, and there is another energy. So they, if they say that "We do not find anything except this atom . . ."
Acyutānanda: They cannot explain how, in the body, by eating food, it turns into . . .
Prabhupāda: No, no. It is not the question of . . . First of all, decide there are two kinds of energies working.
Prabhupāda: Material energy and spiritual energy. So, so far material energy, they have come to the point of atom, and they are searching out. But Kṛṣṇa says, "Yes, this material atom is all right. But this is apara. This is inferior. There is another, superior energy, atom." What is that? "This jīva-bhūta." So why don't you not see it? How rascal they are. Jīva-bhūta is there. He is seeing jīva bhuta, living . . . So Kṛṣṇa is giving information, "Here is the superior atom." Why don't . . ., do they not see to it?
Acyutānanda: Because they are so sinful, they cannot see.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the . . .
Acyutānanda: Like Duryodhana. Even people criticize Kṛṣṇa, "Why He could not convince Duryodhana to be peaceful?" Because there was nothing . . . He was so sinful that he had used up all his pious . . .
Prabhupāda: So that is the Duryodhana party.
Acyutānanda: The scientists are all sinful.
Prabhupāda: The Duryodhana party, and we are Pāṇḍu's party. So there must be war always—fighting. And they'll be smashed. Hṛdayāni vya . . . You know that? "Breaking the heart of the Dhārtarāṣṭra." So we have to make preaching in such a way to break the heart of this Dhṛtarāṣṭra company.
Dayānanda: Dhārtarāṣṭrān vyadārayat.
Prabhupāda: Ah, vyadārayat. Then it will be preaching. There are two energies everywhere. The example is given: just like the sun, the two energies working, heat and light. Everyone can see. Parasya brāhmaṇaḥ śaktiḥ (Viṣṇu Purāṇa). Śakti means energy. So whatever we are seeing, that is combination of two energies of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is also saying the same thing: parasya brāhmaṇaḥ śaktiḥ. Any child can understand. The sun is situated in one place, localized, and his heat and energy, atomic particles, is being distributed all over the universe. What is this fog? Eh? What is this fog which is obstructing seeing the sun? What is this fog? Hmm?
Prabhupāda: Yes. The water is also an energy of sun. Because heat is there, within the heat there is water. What is . . ., the physists say? What is the source of water? What do they say?
Acyutānanda: They say all energy is created from the sun. All the planets are created, and their by-products.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's all right. The sun is heat. So the water is there from the heat. (break) . . .these scientists, making research work to find out what is after atom, proton, neutron. They're searching out.
Acyutānanda: They're never satisfied with their achievements.
Prabhupāda: No, they cannot be because they did not find out what is the ultimate source. They could not. Therefore they cannot be satisfied. If . . . A really scientist, how he can be satisfied? The goal is not yet achieved. How they can be satisfied? But we are satisfied because we know that the goal, the cause, ultimate cause, is Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . .instruction is not blind. It is fact. Just like my body is there, and on account of my energy, so I am getting flesh, I am getting nail.
Acyutānanda: Yes. They cannot explain how the body transforms into . . .
Acyutānanda: . . .tissue.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But explain or not explain, I am seeing practically that two things are coming out: one, the skin, where there is sensation; and where, this nail, there is no sensation. This is matter and spirit. Where there is consciousness, that is spirit. Where there is no consciousness, that is matter.
Hṛdayānanda: Very good example.
Hṛdayānanda: Very nice example.
Prabhupāda: But both of them are coming from me. So this sensation, this consciousness, is perfect when it comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is developing; in every living entity is developing. The consciousness, the sensation, is there in the tree also, but he is not developed. When the same consciousness comes to the complete perfection, then he understands, "Oh, here is Kṛṣṇa." Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). That is perfection. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti: "The real source is Vāsudeva." Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. Then he glorifies Vāsudeva. But to know Vāsudeva, you make research. That is one way, going on. But if you accept . . . Vāsudeva says, "I am everything." Then accept immediately. The whole solution is there. Two, two ways: āroha-panthā, avaroha-panthā. You are trying to search out. Go on. It will take many, many births. But if you accept . . . The same Vāsudeva is coming kindly, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo (BG 10.8). You accept it, then the knowledge is perfect. Suppose I am making this sound (makes tapping sound with cane). Underneath they are puzzled: "Wherefrom this sound is coming?" They are making research. And if I say, "I am making this sound," then everything, knowledge, is there. The rascal will not surrender. Ask the man who is making sound; then the knowledge is perfect. But he'll make research: "Wherefrom the sound came?" This is rascaldom. And one man is suggesting, "It is . . . The sound may be like this. The sound may be due to this." They are going on, researching. But if I say, "You rascal, why you are contemplating like that? I made this sound like this (makes tapping sound with cane). That's all," So that knowledge they'll not take. Mūḍhāḥ. Therefore they are . . . Nābhijānati. Mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam (BG 7.13). So if we call them all mūḍhas, what is the wrong? They become angry. But if we call them, all these rascals, mūḍhas, what is the wrong? They say, "Oh, you are using very strong language. You are calling us all mūḍhas." But actually you are all mūḍhas, because you do not know Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . .ment of atom?
Dayānanda: One ten-thousandth the tip of a hair.
Prabhupāda: Eh? No, no, atom, this atom. Scientists, they are studying atom. So what is the measurement of atom?
Hṛdayānanda: So small that . . .
Prabhupāda: "So small that . . ." A child can say like that.
Acyutānanda: They are all different sizes.
Hṛdayānanda: That a million, they say that . . .
Prabhupāda: No, no. There are two sizes. One is anu, and one is paramanu. Six anus make one paramanu. That is statement. Six anus, and combine together it becomes a paramanu. That is atom. Therefore they are dividing atom. That is already there in the Vedic literature.
Acyutānanda: So the scientists' conception of atom is wrong.
Acyutānanda: The scientists' conception of the atom is wrong.
Prabhupāda: Everything is wrong.
Acyutānanda: But by their . . ., even though they are, they are wrong, by their conception they are making an atomic bomb. They can utilize . . .
Prabhupāda: So far you can, can . . .
Acyutānanda: . . .to show results.
Prabhupāda: That does not mean he knows everything. That does not mean . . .
Acyutānanda: No, but he can say . . .
Prabhupāda: Suppose you, you, if you can make a nice vegetable preparation, but that does not mean you know everything of the vegetable. That does not mean. You are still rascal. Although you can prepare a nice preparation with vegetable. But that does not mean you know everything of the vegetable. That is karu kārya. That is called karu kārya. Just like this mason worker: they know how to set up the bricks and doing nice work. But that does not mean . . . Wherefrom the brick has come? You can take this flower, make a, what is called, in a vase, can make a beautiful . . .
Devotee (1): Bouquet.
Devotee (1): Bouquet?
Prabhupāda: Yes, bouquet, yes. That does not mean you know how the flower has come out. That is called visarga. Sarga and visarga. Just like Brahmā has created this universe, but that does not mean he is the ultimate cause. Tene brahma hṛdā ya ādi-kavaye (SB 1.1.1). Brahmā got knowledge from Kṛṣṇa how to do it. (aside:) What is this? (break) . . .āṇu-cayānthara-stham. (break) . . .tejaḥ, heat, the sun, supplying heat and water, vāri and mṛt, and the earth—combination. These things are coming out. Tejo-vāri-mṛt-vinimayam. How these flowers and trees are coming out? There is sunlight, there is water and there is earth. And there is Kṛṣṇa also, the seed. Bījo 'ham sarva-bhutanam (BG 7.10). So without Kṛṣṇa, nothing can be. (break) . . .there is spirit atom?
Yaśodānandana: Yes. The arguments are very convincing, especially this last point about how the plants are growing with the help of sunlight, earth, water and everything. Scientists only have very shallow explanations of how life comes about. (break)
Prabhupāda: . . .third verse. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). They do not know Kṛṣṇa; therefore they cannot understand.
Yaśodānandana: In the introduction to The Nectar of Devotion, you have also mentioned nicely that even though there are so many scholars and scientists, they cannot even follow these four principles of no meat-eating, illicit sex life and everything. They may have so much academic knowledge, but they cannot even control their senses. But by your mercy, even though we are very inexperienced in such knowledge, we are able to control the senses.
Prabhupāda: Ajitendriyānām. Without controlling the senses, other things, they are simply professional. It has no value. (break) . . .yogis, all their methods, they have been described by Prahlāda Mahārāja as a way of their livelihood. Actually, they have no knowledge. They are talking of . . ., as knowledge, but they have no knowledge. This profession is their means of their livelihood. Otherwise, they have no value. Just like a magician. He shows some magic, but that does not mean he has all knowledge. He has taken these magic performances as a means of his livelihood. (break) . . .ti ajitendriyānām. Jugglery of words, eh? They are professional. (break) . . .that big, big words. Then people engage them: "Oh, here is a big scientist." And if he's not engaged, his talking has no value. By the knowledge he has acquired, he can make some money. That's all.
Hṛdayānanda: That's exactly what's happening.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And if you ask, they will say, "That we do not know." So why you are taking money? Exactly they say so. Our Svarūpa Dāmodara challenged that professor who came to lecture in California University. He challenged, "If I give you chemicals, can you produce life?" He said, "That I cannot say."
Kirtirāja: "We are trying," they say.
Prabhupāda: Then why you are . . ., you are bluffing and taking money from us? They do not know. (break) (end)