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760108 - Conversation - Nellore

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His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

760108R1-NELLORE - January 08, 1976 - 14:32 Minutes

Prabhupāda: This is idea. Mano-rathena, by mental speculation, āsato dhāvato, they will come to materialism. As soon as they will hover over mental concoction, they will remain in the material platform, because mind is subtle form of matter.

Acyutānanda: Also, in their evidences by which they base their dialectic discussions, have they regarded the Vedic scriptures? They have avoided them very conveniently.

Prabhupāda: No, there is no question of dialectic discussion. Suppose I am discussing, you are discussing something, but if I am imperfect, you are imperfect, what is the value of such discussion? That is the point. The party discussing something, whether he is perfect? If he is not perfect, then go on discussing. We first of all say that any conditioned soul is defective, and that is admitted. They say: "We are not perfect." "I think," they say: "In my opinion," they say. Never they say, the so-called scientists, "definite." And they cannot say it.

Mahāṁsa: That is like Dr. Frog's philosophy when they speculate.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Simply speculation. So that kind of discussion, what is the value?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's always a hypothesis.

Prabhupāda: If some children discuss some serious subject matter, what is the value? And they are all children in the cradle of nature, that's all. Prakṛteḥ kriya . . . therefore it is word, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni (BG 3.27). Just like children: "Ha! Sit down here"—he has to sit down. Then where is his, I mean, freedom to discuss? Prakṛti says that "You sit down here. Don't go there." He has to accept. Then what is the value of discussion?

Acyutānanda: Mainly, these Karl Marx, they were angry at the Christian church for exploiting the poor masses, and that's the reason . . .

Prabhupāda: This is our . . .

Acyutānanda: . . . so he has attacked. He has taken vengeance on this.

Prabhupāda: That they are doing. Still they are doing. Just like you said, some sprinkling water. They have no philosophy, and they violate everything what is stated there in Bible. Now you say that, "Thou shall not kill", they say: "Thou shall not murder." They are molding. Now this homosex they are sanctioning, man-to-man marriage. They are sanctioning abortion.

Acyutānanda: Yes. Two homosexuals were married by a priest.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now they have a church where the priests are homosexuals and the attending people are homosexual.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now they have churches for homosex. That means the priest is a homosexual, and the persons who come are homosexuals. A special church for homosexuals.

Prabhupāda: Just see. Is that religion?

Yaśodānandana: The simple fact that the Christians have to sprinkle water to convert means that they do not have any potency to by philosophy, to preach to them with strong philosophy.

Prabhupāda: There is no . . . so, go on reading.

Harikeśa: I'll backspace two sentences. (break)

Acyutānanda: ". . . have allowed us to wither away these different countries, and the religionists, they are keeping all the food. They are not distributing it."

Yaśodānandana: If we say that the Russia has no grains, they will say that they are big wheat producers in the southern part. They may counteract by saying: "We also produce a lot of wheat."

Acyutānanda: They had to purchase wheat from America.

Gurukeśa: Russia is importing its food grains now.

Prabhupāda: So why they cannot produce sufficient, such a big country?

Gurukeśa: And Eastern Europe, which is also communist, gets all its supplies from . . .

Prabhupāda: No, what is their explanation? Russia is the biggest country.

Gurukeśa: Land.

Hari-śauri: The reason was that there was no rain.

Prabhupāda: Then? Then you have to depend on rain, and when we say parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ . . . hmm? And yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ (BG 3.14). That means, rascal, you take one side, that ardha-kukuṭi-nyāya. Cut the chicken half, and separate the mouth—it is expensive—and keep the rear side, you get eggs. (laughter) So this is ardha-kukuṭi-nyāya. The rascal does not know that if you separate the mouth there will be no egg.

Gurukeśa: They say that's depending upon nature. But they do not know who . . .

Acyutānanda: The word 'nature' should be condemned. That . . . no scientific-minded person can say the word nature.

Prabhupāda: No, they do not know what is nature. Nature is an instrument, and there must be an operator. So that they do not know, the operator. Just like a child is thinking the motorcar is going automatically. He does not know there is a driver. The child sees that the airplane is flying. They think it is automatically going. And there is a pilot, he does not know. Similarly, these rascals, they are studying nature, but nature is an instrument only. It is being operated by Kṛṣṇa. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). They have practical experience that without operator a machine cannot work. In the huge machine, how it is working unless there is operator? That they do not know.

Gurukeśa: That's what they're never trying to find.

Prabhupāda: Mūḍhaḥ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam (BG 7.13). Find out this verse. Mūḍhaḥ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Mūḍha. Therefore they are all mūḍhas. So we are not going to be misled by the mūḍhas. That is not possible. We take the instruction of the topmost intelligent person, Kṛṣṇa. I think our Svarūpa Dāmodara has said that. Where is that book? He has given: "Kṛṣṇa, the topmost scientist." Yes. "Perceiving the supreme scientist, Śrī Kṛṣṇa." He has given this article.

Acyutānanda: How do we know that Vedavyāsa is not defective like other living beings?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Acyutānanda: How do we know that Vedavyāsa is not . . .

Prabhupāda: He is not defective because he is speaking what he has heard from Nārada. Therefore he is not defective. Just like we are speaking—we are not perfect; we are also ordinary human being—but people are taking that "Bhaktivedanta Swami has done wonder." What is that wonder? I am speaking Bhagavad-gītā as it is, that's all.

Acyutānanda: Like the Mormon religion in America . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, don't bring any other . . . that is . . .

Acyutānanda: He claimed that an angel . . .

Prabhupāda: If you accept . . . we are taking from God. Kṛṣṇa instructed Brahmā, Brahmā instructed Nārada, Nārada instructed Vyāsadeva, and therefore we are taking.

Acyutānanda: So it is a novel. Like Shakespeare wrote Hamlet . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. It may be novel for you because we take you as a mūḍha. We don't give any credit. We say . . . find out this, mūdho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I have this, mūḍho 'yam nābhijānāti loko mām ajam avyayam (BG 7.25)?

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hmm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:

nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya
mūḍho 'yam nābhijānāti
loko mām ajam avyayam
(BG 7.25)

"I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent."

Prabhupāda: Yes, the fools. He does not know Kṛṣṇa; therefore he is fool. Read it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "For them I am covered by My eternal creative potency, yogamāyā, and so the deluded world knows Me not, who am unborn and infallible."

Mahamsa: So who is fool is defined as avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritaḥ (BG 9.11).

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Mahamsa: Who is a fool, that is defined in the other verse, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Mānuṣīṁ tanum āśri . . . that one who considers Kṛṣṇa as ordinary human being—mūḍha. So read the purport.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "It may be argued that since Kṛṣṇa was present on this earth and was visible by everyone, then why isn't He manifest to everyone now? But actually, He was not manifest to everyone. When Kṛṣṇa was present there were only a few people who could understand Him to be the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In the assembly of Kurus, when Śiśupāla spoke against Kṛṣṇa being elected president of the assembly, Bhīṣma supported Him and proclaimed Him to be the Supreme God. Similarly, the Pāṇḍavas and a few others . . ."

Prabhupāda: Śiśupāla could not see, although Kṛṣṇa was present there, but Bhīṣma could see. So you require special eyes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānām (BG 10.10).

Prabhupāda: Yes. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ . . . (BS 5.38). So unless you are qualified, how you can see Kṛṣṇa? This is the point. Kṛṣṇa is there, and the rascal Śiśupāla could not see Him, but Bhīṣma could see Him. So they say, "Can you show me God?" Even God comes before you, unless you have got the qualified eyes you cannot see Him. Therefore qualification required. Premāñjana-cchurita. When your eyes will be anointed with . . . what is called?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Salve of love.

Acyutānanda: Ointment.

Prabhupāda: Savoth?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Salve, salve.

Prabhupāda: What is the spelling?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Salve, s-a-l-v-e.

Prabhupāda: Oh, salve of love, yes. So that is required. Your . . . therefore tat-paratvena nirmalam. You have to make your senses purified; then bhakti will begin. Otherwise it is karma. If your senses are not purified, then it is karma. There is a difference between karma and . . . Premāñjana-cchurita . . . what is that? Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170). If you think yourself that "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am this," "I am that," then you are not upādhi-mukta; therefore you cannot see Kṛṣṇa. You can see Kṛṣṇa when you are no more within these upādhis, pure soul. Brahma . . . that is real brahma-bhūtaḥ, to understand the position of the soul and engage the soul in the service of the Lord. Then it is perfect. Go on.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Similarly, the Pāṇḍavas and a few others knew that He was the Supreme, but not everyone. He was not revealed to the nondevotees and the common men. Therefore in the Gītā Kṛṣṇa says that but for His pure devotees, all men consider Him to be like themselves. He was manifest only to His devotees as the reservoir of all pleasure. But to others, to unintelligent nondevotees, He was covered by His eternal potency. In the prayers of Kunti in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (SB 1.8.18), it is said that the Lord is covered by the curtain of yogamāyā, and thus ordinary people cannot understand Him. Kuntī prays: 'O my Lord, You are the maintainer of the entire universe, and devotional service to You is the highest religious principle. Therefore I pray that You will also maintain me. Your transcendental form is covered by the yoga-māyā. The brahma-jyotir is the covering of the internal potency. May You kindly remove this glowing effulgence that impedes my seeing Your sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha (BS 5.1), Your eternal form of bliss and knowledge.' This yogamāyā curtain is also mentioned in the Fifteenth Chapter of the Gītā. The Supreme Personality of Godhead in His transcendental form of bliss and knowledge is covered by the eternal potency of brahma-jyotir, and the less intelligent impersonalists cannot see the Supreme on this account. Also in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (SB 10.14.7) there is this prayer by Brahmā: 'O Supreme Personality of Godhead, O Supersoul, O master of all mystery, who can calculate Your potency and pastimes in this world? You are always expanding Your eternal potency, and therefore no one can understand You. Learned scientists and learned scholars can examine the atomic constitution of the material world or even the planets, but still they are unable to calculate Your energy and potency, although You are present before them.' The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Kṛṣṇa, is not only unborn, but He is avyaya, inexhaustible. His eternal form is bliss and knowledge, and His energies are all inexhaustible."

Prabhupāda: So, go and discuss. (end)