751119 - Morning Walk - Bombay
Dr. Patel: You understand it, others don't. But they have got to. (break)
Prabhupāda: . . . is saṁpatti . . . (break)
Śaṅka: They're supposed to start casting the second floor.
Śaṅka: Today they're going to put the steel on the second floor, and tomorrow they're supposed to start casting.
Prabhupāda: That "tomorrow" is daily said. Every day it is said "tomorrow." (break)
Devotee (1): . . . of Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Dr. Patel: You have spread the steel on.
Devotee (1): The steel is now in?
Brahmānanda: The steel is there?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They put it in yesterday.
Devotee (1): They'll be casting most of the floor today.
Dr. Patel: (indistinct) . . . from outside.
Devotee (1): Every fourteen days we'll cast a new floor. (break)
Prabhupāda: . . . the week days are set up.
Dr. Patel: We have our own information.
Dr. Patel: We have our own information.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Dr. Patel: (laughs) You see, there is a little difference . . .
Prabhupāda: Sunday, Monday.
Dr. Patel: Yes, Sunday, the sun is the center, and I mean, that is, I recall, first sun, and then Mon . . . Monday is next day, then Tuesday, which is next to the earth, and Wednesday is next to the sun.
Prabhupāda: Then sun is first, then moon. But they say moon is first, then sun.
Dr. Patel: Who says?
Prabhupāda: The scientists.
Dr. Patel: No.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They say the moon is . . .
Dr. Patel: So far the distance is concerned, moon may be nearest.
Prabhupāda: How it is, that?
Dr. Patel: It is so, sir.
Dr. Patel: Our science says so. Your science may not. And we don't want to clash the sciences here. Let us talk about philosophy.
Prabhupāda: You science . . . (laughs) Jump over.
Dr. Patel: This Chandra is the upagraha . . . (indistinct) . . . isn't it? As guru has got many such grahas . . .
Prabhupāda: It is one of the celestial planets. And they say there is no life.
Dr. Patel: It is not self-luminous. All grahas are not self-luminous. When we observe in the sky, those stars are bleeping like this. The grahas are straight as that, the Sukra behind us, just steady light. (break)
Prabhupāda: . . . philosophy is also incorrect, there is no life after death.
Dr. Patel: Who says so?
Prabhupāda: Oh, so many, all Westerners.
Dr. Patel: The Easterns . . . that does not mean . . . the Eastern philosophy is only with the jāgrati stage. But the jīva has got three stages, and the fourth stage, the turīya stage, is the real stage that we understand. They don't have idea of it, unfortunately. So that philosophy is not the real philosophy of life. Life as a whole should have its own philosophy. They don't understand that there is anything beyond the jāgrati stage. But then there is a svapna stage, there is a sleep stage and the turīya stage. In that if I am wrong you may correct me, sir.
Prabhupāda: You cannot be corrected.
Dr. Patel: I cannot be wrong, say that.
Prabhupāda: No, I cannot correct you.
Dr. Patel: You? You cannot be correct . . .? Why I should not be corrected? Because the philosophy must encompass the whole life, not a part of it. All Western philosophers, only except Schopenhauer and Eckhart, they only thought about the waking stage. They have never thought about the dream and the deep sleep stage and the stage beyond the three. None of them, excepting Eckhart of Germany. So the Western philosophers are all wrong or partially true. (break) The Western philosophers have never thought about the three other stages, none of them. (break)
Prabhupāda: . . . philosophy rejects any philosophy based on thinking.
Dr. Patel: But you see, thinking is an apparatus which takes you beyond thinking.
Prabhupāda: That is another.
Dr. Patel: That takes you beyond thinking. You cannot go beyond thinking without thinking to be taken as a fact.
Prabhupāda: But thinking must be intelligent thinking.
Dr. Patel: But thinking is always . . .
Prabhupāda: Foolish thinking has no value. Indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur indriyebhya para mana manasas tu parā buddhir (BG 3.42). So thinking should be under the direction of intelligence.
Dr. Patel: Buddhi, buddhimān and ahaṅkāra, all are the internal apparatus, what you call antaḥ-kāraṇa. They work together in reason. I mean, one thing does not act separately from the other, as we know.
Prabhupāda: There are separate arrangement, although they are one.
Dr. Patel: They are the different facets of the same internal organ as a whole.
Prabhupāda: (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (break) . . . set is there, but beyond that mental stage there is intellect. Beyond intellect there is soul.
Dr. Patel: To go beyond intellect for a body conscious ego, the ego must dissolve and find itself to be a jīva, and then he travels further up to find his own identity and his own relation with God. Before, I mean, mind is one, you cannot go beyond it. That is what my conjecture. I may be wrong for all that.
Prabhupāda: No, no. One has to go beyond the mind, but those who are stuck up with the mind, they are useless. So the Western philosophers, they are stuck up with the mind. That is the defect. (break) . . . abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā mano-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ (SB 5.18.12). Manorathena, mental concoction, asataḥ. Western philosophers, they take the mind as the soul. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Hmm?
Dr. Patel: Yes. And the Communists think even the matter is more important than the mind. What do you call? Dialectical materialism, that the matter produces consciousness. It is not that the consciousness which, I mean, collects matter around it. That is their philosophy. That is this dialectical materialism as they find. They are absolutely wrong. They are even further down than the Western philosophers, mental philosophers.
Prabhupāda: (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . is already mentioned in Bhagavad-gītā:
- indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur
- indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ
- manasas tu parā buddhir . . .
- (BG 3.42)
Dr. Patel: Buddhi tu . . . paraṁ buddhva? What is called, that . . .? Saṁsthābhyam ātmāna? That mind has to . . . I mean, isn't it out for itself that it is false? That comes to that.
Prabhupāda: Not false.
Dr. Patel: I mean false so far as a higher category is concerned, the jīva.
Prabhupāda: Nothing is false, but there are different steps. One step is important than the other, but they are not false. Just like the water, the sand, then earth, then the building. You cannot construct a building here. So these are different stages of reality. (aside) Jaya. So, how many places you have arranged?
Devotee (2): Program? Well, I have arranged two so far. At least, tentatively, Mr. Patel and Mr. Tarachand Gupta. But . . .
Prabhupāda: Tarachand Gupta is also member?
Devotee (2): Yes, he has taken a room.
Devotee (2): He has a big . . . a giant bungalow on Altamount Road on Malabar Hill.
Prabhupāda: He knows me.
Devotee (2): Ah, I think so. (break)
Prabhupāda: . . . going to the West, and I was collecting some money, this gentleman gave me five hundred rupees.
Devotee (2): Tarachand Gupta. Really? He makes trains, train cars.
Prabhupāda: Ācchā? He has got factory?
Devotee (2): Yes.
Prabhupāda: A good business.
Devotee (2): Yes.
Brahmānanda: Where is the factory?
Devotee (2): It's outside of Bombay. (break)
Prabhupāda: . . . at his home, Deity.
Devotee (2): I don't think so. I haven't seen it, anyway.
Prabhupāda: No, I went to his house. He worships Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Deity.
Prabhupāda: Huh? You know it?
Harikeśa: Yes, very well. The grandfather there does the worship, the old man.
Prabhupāda: Oh. He is Tarachand Gupta, the old man.
Harikeśa: There is one older man, or there was.
Prabhupāda: So what is the old man's name?
Devotee (2): I don't know. I haven't seen either the old man or the Deity.
Prabhupāda: Who is Tarachand Gupta? He is young man?
Devotee (2): A middle-aged man, about fifty-five . . . about sixty.
Harikeśa: Śrīdhara is the only one who's ever gotten money out of Tarachand Gupta.
Harikeśa: No one else has ever been able to get money out of Tarachand Gupta but Śrīdhara.
Prabhupāda: Ācchā? And before him, I got some money. (laughter) He gave me five hundred rupees long ago, means before going to United States.
Devotee (2): Girirāja made him a Life Member.
Prabhupāda: No, he appears to be good man. Yes. One day he met me at Hanging Garden, and he requested me that, "One day you have to come to my house."
Girirāja: I remember. When we were at Akash Ganga, it was almost fixed up with Madhudviṣa Swami, but something . . .
Prabhupāda: So when you go to the bank, I have got some money you can take. (break) What is called?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Wagons.
Prabhupāda: Wagons he makes?
Devotee (2): Yes.
Prabhupāda: Wagon or bogies?
Harikesa: Freight cars.
Devotee (2): He makes the freight cars.
Prabhupāda: Freight cars. That means wagon. (break) The bogies are made by railway company by themselves. It is called bogies?
Girirāja: Yes, passenger car.
Prabhupāda: (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.
Man: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Jaya. (break)
Brahmānanda: He makes railway cars in Bharatpur.
Prabhupāda: Huh? Where? Bharatpur?
Prabhupāda: That is in Calcutta.
Brahmānanda: Isn't there a Bharatpur near Agra?
Prabhupāda: Bharatpur. Oh, yes. (break)
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . India exports to Africa and Middle East countries.
Brahmānanda: The bogies.
Prabhupāda: How they dispatch? By ship?
Brahmānanda: Yes, I think so. I remember reading once, in Tanzania they received twelve bogies.
Prabhupāda: Twelve bogies at a time?
Brahmānanda: This one shipment. Twelve.
Prabhupāda: (aside) Jaya. (break) . . . has good trade with Africa in so many things.
Brahmānanda: Telephones are also made in India. (break)
Prabhupāda: . . . is taken from the earth. There is no doubt about it. Why the scientists cannot take? This is a fact, that there is aroma, and the flower has taken the aroma from the earth. But why the scientists cannot take?
Brahmānanda: They can make chemicals, the flavors. They can make flavors, aromas, from chemicals.
Prabhupāda: As good?
Brahmānanda: No. (laughter)
Yaśomatīnandana: They make a flavor and then say it's a rose flavor.
Prabhupāda: That is also not all kinds of flavors.
Indian man: Aapne wo baat bahut thik bola ki do aur do char hota hai wo din do aur do teen banane mangta hai wo kaise hoyega. (What you said is very true, that two plus two equals four—they want to make two plus two to equal three, but how is it possible?)
Yaśomatīnandana: I think if they want to produce rose flavor they must use roses somehow or other. I don't think they can just produce.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They use a little bit.
Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. They must use.
Prabhupāda: They are taking chemicals, making flavor, and the flower is coming out without any chemical. So who is more artist, better artist? (break)
Brahmānanda: . . . because they will wilt and die.
Brahmānanda: These flowers, they will wilt and die, but they can make flowers that will not die, will not wilt. (laughter) Of course, they have no smell.
Prabhupāda: Therefore they make without smell. (break) . . . earth is this side and moon is this side, then which is first? Both of them are both sides.
Brahmānanda: Yes. The sun is larger in the sky, so that means it is nearer to the earth?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Should be. Because you calculate about the stars, very, very far away. Is it not?
Brahmānanda: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: Then which is smaller is far away. (break)
Yaśomat-nandana: . . . systems are bigger than the smaller ones?
Yaśomatī-nandana: The upper planetary systems, are they bigger than the lower ones? In other words, sun is bigger than the earth, the moon is bigger . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes, there is measurement. (break)
Jayapatāka: Some people say that, "You are coming to India for preaching, but we Indians, we already know all the . . . about Kṛṣṇa and Rāma. Why don't . . . you should be preaching in the West, where the people don't know."
Prabhupāda: But you know from the Western people. They are not . . . they are imitating Western people. You know from the Western people; therefore you have to learn from the Western people this also.
Brahmānanda: They are learning everything else from the Western people, so why not . . .
Śrīdhara: Everyone in India knows the līlā of Kṛṣṇa, but the science of Kṛṣṇa, that they have forgotten.
Prabhupāda: They know līlā of Kṛṣṇa but they do not know Kṛṣṇa. Huh? Who was . . .? You were telling that Mr. Bajaj, he wants to take the instruction of Kṛṣṇa without Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Then how you will take this instruction when Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65)? If they do not take Kṛṣṇa, then how this instruction will be taken?
Girirāja: It can't be.
Brahmānanda: Well, rāsa-līlā is more important than those instructions. (Prabhupāda laughs)
Yaśomatīnandana: Actually, the real scholars of Bhagavad-gītā, they admit that later on this Bhagavad-gītā came out, which was stressing more on bhakti.
Prabhupāda: Later on.
Yaśomatīnandana: Later on. These scholars, these mundane scholars, those who have studied Bhagavad-gītā, they accept that Bhagavad-gītā is based around bhakti principle.
Prabhupāda: So how it came later on?
Yaśomatīnandana: That they are rascal. That they don't.
Prabhupāda: And what was the beginning?
Yaśomatīnandana: All these Vedas and everything.
Prabhupāda: No, Bhagavad-gītā? They say "later on."
Brahmānanda: Who was the first . . .
Yaśomatīnandana: He says that it was the Vaiṣṇavites who introduced Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: Then why Śaṅkarācārya has accepted Bhagavad-gītā? He is not a Vaiṣṇava.
Yaśomatīnandana: That they cannot answer.
Prabhupāda: Then they're foolish.
Yaśomatīnandana: That they cannot answer.
Prabhupāda: Śaṅkarācārya has accepted Bhagavad-gītā. Śaṅkarācārya accepted Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Lord. Sa bhagavān svaya kṛṣṇaḥ. He has written . . .
Yaśomatīnandana: It is like that. They think that Śaṅkarācārya also liked Bhagavad-gītā, but the personal Kṛṣṇa was not very important.
Yaśomatīnandana: According to his bhāṣya, they think like that.
Prabhupāda: No, he has written many prayers on Kṛṣṇa. Bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ mūḍhā-mate. That means those who are not worshiping Govinda, they are mūḍhā-mati. He is addressing mūḍhā-mati: "You rascal . . ."
Yaśomatīnandana: This verse, Śrīla Prabhupāda, vāsudeva satam devam, is also written by him?
- vasudevaṁ-sutaṁ devaṁ
- devakī paramānandaṁ
- kṛṣṇaṁ vande jagat-gurum
Prabhupāda: Maybe, but I do not know.
Yaśomatīnandana: Because they say, these mundane scholars, that Bhāgavata was after Śaṅkarācārya because he did not write a commentary on Bhāgavata. Because there's a mention of Kaṁsa and Cāṇūra and Vasudeva and Devakī, that means that Śaṅkarācārya did believe in the personal of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: But Vedavyāsa is after Śaṅkarācārya?
Yaśomatīnandana: They don't accept it is written by Vedavyāsa.
Yaśomatīnandana: They don't . . . they are such atheistic people, they do not accept that it is written by Vedavyāsa.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but others accept it.
Yaśomatīnandana: Yes, the vast people do accept.
Prabhupāda: Vedavyāsa is accepted by Śaṅkarācārya. Vyāsadeva. Vyāsa-guru.
Yaśomatīnandana: They think that some Vaiṣṇava wrote it and put the name of Vedavyāsa. They are so demoniac.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they say like that. Then other ācāryas, they are also fools?
Yaśomatīnandana: I think they place all the other ācāryas after Śaṅkarācārya.
Prabhupāda: . . . ācāryas. But their paramparā system is very old. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . Bhagavad-gītā? No.
Yaśomatīnandana: They don't accept it as . . . they do not accept Gītā as spoken by some person Kṛṣṇa five thousand years ago on the battlefield.
Prabhupāda: Anyway, do they accept the authority of Bhagavad-gītā or not?
Yaśomatīnandana: They say it's a very nice book of knowledge. They don't want to pursue spiritual life.
Prabhupāda: Then why they become authority?
Yaśomatīnandana: Yes, that is their rascaldom.
Prabhupāda: If they do not accept authority, why they become authority? Who will accept them? If everything is depending on mental speculation, then why they should be accepted as authority?
Yaśomatīnandana: That they cannot answer. Only insincere people, foolish people, they are misled by them. Otherwise I don't think anybody even knows their philosophy. Everyone knows your philosophy because they see your disciples, and no one goes to read their books. Mostly I see in their books, "First edition, copies two thousand," "three thousand," something like that. And you never see a second edition.
Indian man: . . . yehi bolte hain ki Bhagavad-Gita. (. . . say this, that Bhagavad-Gita.) . . . (break)
Prabhupāda: . . . Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu for the last twelve years he was lying idle, and this time he went, and people appreciated so much he was giving delete. He is advertising like that. (end)