751031 - Lecture BG 07.04 - Nairobi

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His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



751031BG-NAIROBI - October 31, 1975 - 50:27 Minutes



Harikeśa: Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. (devotees repeat) Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, Chapter Seven, text number four. (leads chanting of verse, etc.)

bhūmir āpo 'nalo vayuḥ
khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca
ahaṅkāra itīyaṁ me
bhinnā prakṛtir aṣṭadhā
(BG 7.4)

(02:40)

Translation: "Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego—altogether these eight comprise My separated material energies."

Prabhupāda:

bhūmir āpo 'nalo vayuḥ
khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca
ahaṅkāra itīyaṁ me
bhinnā prakṛtir aṣṭadhā
(BG 7.4)

Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself. God is explaining what is God. That is real knowledge. If you speculate on God, it is not possible. You cannot understand. The God, Kṛṣṇa, in the beginning said, asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu (BG 7.1). Samagram. Samagra means whatever . . . Or samagra means complete. So whatever subject for study and knowledge there is, God is the sum total of everything, one. God is the sum total of everything. Therefore He begins to explain Himself that . . .

First of all, because we have no information of God but practically we see the vast land, the vast water, ocean, the vast sky, then fire, so many things, material things, material things, also mind . . . Mind is also material. And then ego. Everyone is thinking that "I am something. I am . . ." Kartāham iti manyate. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā (BG 3.27). This false ego. This ego means false ego. And there is pure ego. That pure ego is ahaṁ brahmāsmi, and the false ego: "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am African," "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am kṣatriya," "I am this," "I am that." This is false ego, ahaṅkāra. So at the present moment . . . Not at the present; always we are surrounded by all these things. That is our beginning of philosophy: Wherefrom this land came? Wherefrom this water came? Wherefrom the fire came? That is natural inquiry. Wherefrom the sky came? How the stars are situated, so many millions and millions? So these are the inquiries of the intelligent person. That is the beginning of philosophical life. Therefore those who are thoughtful human being, gradually they are inquisitive of understanding the Supreme Lord, Kṛṣṇa.

So Kṛṣṇa is there, and Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself, "I am like this." But unfortunately we'll not understand Kṛṣṇa, but we'll try to speculate what is God. This is our disease. Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself; God is explaining Himself. We shall not take that statement, but either we shall deny or we shall accept God without any head and leg and so on, so many things. This is our disease. Therefore in the previous verse it has been explained,

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu
kaścid yatati siddhaye
yatatām api siddhānāṁ
kaścin vetti māṁ tattvataḥ
(BG 7.3)

Out of many millions and millions of person, actually they are serious to understand, "What is the aim of life? What is God? What is my relation . . ." Nobody is interested. Just like . . . Sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). Everyone is interested with this bodily conception of life like cats and dogs. This is the position. Not only now; always this is the material condition. But somebody, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu, out of millions, one tries to understand, to make his life perfect. And out of such perfection . . .

Perfection means to understand his real constitutional position, that he is not this material body; he is spirit soul, Brahman. That is perfection, perfection of knowledge, brahma-jñāna.

brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā
na śocati na kāṅkṣati
samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu
mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām
(BG 18.54)

After brahma-jñāna . . . Sometimes the Māyāvādī philosophers they say, "By bhakti one gains brahma-jñāna, and one becomes liberated, merged into Brahman," and so on, so on, because they say, "Bhakti is meant for the less intelligent class of men." Their accusation is like that. No. That is not the fact. Bhakti, kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, in the lower stage of bhakti, that is also higher than the Māyāvāda philosophy. In the lower status of bhakti means that arcā-vigraha, anyone, any person, he does not clearly understand what is God, but by the instruction of the spiritual master one is engaged in the service of the Lord. This morning we have explained the Deity worship. Here is God. Here is God factually, but he has no realization that here is God. That is called kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, in the lower stage of devotional service. But if he accepts even theoretically that "Here is God," then he becomes more advanced than the Māyāvādī, who are thinking of God without head and leg, nirviśeṣa-vādī.

So therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that one who has undergone the training by a Māyāvādī philosopher, his life is finished. Māyāvādi-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa (CC Madhya 6.169). He says that he is finished because he'll never be able to advance in devotional service, and that is the ultimate goal of life. Mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). After realization of Brahman, when he is actually on the Brahman platform, then the symptom is, na śocati na kāṅkṣati: he has no more lamentation and no more aspiration. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Then he can see everyone on equal level, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu, because he does not see the outward body, he does not see that "Here is a Hindu, here is a Muslim, here is a Christian, here is an Indian, here is American, here is black and here is white." No. He sees within, within, introspection. He sees that within,

vidyā-vinaya-sampanne
brāhmaṇe gavi hastini
śuni caiva śva-pāke ca
paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ
(BG 5.18)

That is samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Not artificially you can make samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Artificially it is not possible. There will be some distinction, must be, bodily.

So therefore, on the bodily platform they are trying to become united. The United Nation is trying for the last forty years, but there is no unity; it is not possible on the bodily platform. But on the spiritual platform there is unity. Just like in our movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you'll find all different nations, all different colors, all different religion, all different sex, they are all united in chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is united nation. There is no distinction. And this is not artificial; this is practical. So the people are trying to become united, oneness. That is not possible on the bodily platform. So this bodily concept of life can be vanquished, can be, I mean to say, rejected on the spiritual platform.

So here Kṛṣṇa says that first of all our material conception of life . . . We are in the material world. We see everything as stone and wood and earth and water and fire and everything. We have got the capacity to see all these things. Here Kṛṣṇa says that this bhūmi, this earth; āpa, this water; anala, this fire; vāyu, air; kham, the sky, ether; mana, mind . . . That is still subtle. Up to ether you can see, but the mind, which is still finer than the ether, mana, that you cannot see. (drinks water) Mind, everyone knows you have got mind, I have got mind, but you cannot see the mind, neither I can see your mind. Here is the subtle. First gross: bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ, up to ether. Ether also we cannot see, but we can understand here is ether by (claps) sound. As soon as there is sound, this is the understanding of ether. Ether, vāyu, you can touch, but you cannot see. Then fire, you can see. And then water, you can see also, and then earth—gross. From the finer, we are coming to the gross. Begins from the finer.

So finer than the ether is the mind, and finer than the mind is intelligence, ego. And finer than the intelligence and ego is the soul. So how you can see soul? You cannot see even the material things, as soon it becomes finer. How you can see the soul? They cannot see, but soul is there. Therefore when the soul departs from the body we see the bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhi-ahaṅkāra . . . (BG 7.4). Buddhi-ahaṅkāra. The man, the dead man, is lying. The gross thing we are seeing, but the mind, intelligence, ego, which is carrying that soul, that we do not see. The how transmigration of the soul takes place, that we have no knowledge, poor fund of knowledge. We can simply think gross. Jaḍa-darśana. It is called jaḍa-darśana. Even there is no sūkṣma-darśana. Although there is mind, but we cannot see. Then how you can see the soul?

So this is the defect of modern education. So what is beyond your perception, sense perception, that you have to hear. There are two kinds of knowledges: by practical experience, direct perception; and by hearing from authority, aitihya. According to Vedic system, there are three kinds of evidences: direct, and . . . Pratyakṣa . . . Pratyakṣa means direct. And then aitihya and then śruti. Śruti. Śruti means hearing from the authority. Just like here we see that there is mind. Everyone knows mind, but it is confirmed by the śāstra because we are hearing from Kṛṣṇa, which is called śruti. Similarly, when Kṛṣṇa says in the Second Chapter,

dehino 'smin yathā dehe
kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā
tathā dehāntara-prāptir
dhīras tatra na muhyati
(BG 2.13)

Asmin dehe, "Within this body, there is the proprietor of the body." That you have to learn by hearing. If you want to see immediately, "Let me see where it is in the . . ." oh, your so-called scientific research cannot help you. You have to learn it simply by hearing from the authority. This is called śruti, śruti-pramāṇa. Śruti-pramāṇa, evidence from śruti.

So the Vedic knowledge is called śruti. You have to learn things beyond your perception simply by hearing from the authorities. So Vedic knowledge is the authority. Why we accept Vedas as authority? Because there is the perfect knowledge. I have discussed so many times the authority of the Vedas, accepting cow dung as pure although animal stool is impure. But Vedas accept that cow dung is pure; we accept it, "Cow dung is pure." This is called śruti-pramāṇa. Śruti-pramāṇa means the real knowledge, perfect knowledge, is coming from the supreme perfect, Kṛṣṇa. That perfect knowledge, after creation . . . Brahmā is the first created being, so Brahmā was instructed the śruti, perfect knowledge, by Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the original spiritual master. Vedānta-vid. He says, Kṛṣṇa, in the Bhagavad-gītā,

sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo
mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca
vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo
veda-vid vedānta-kṛd ca aham
(BG 15.15)

So Vedic knowledge means the instruction given by Kṛṣṇa to the first living being, Lord Brahmā. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). From Kṛṣṇa everything is born, everything is emanated. He says in the Bhagavad-gītā that ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). Everything is coming from Him. So the first engineer of this universe, Lord Brahmā, he comes from Kṛṣṇa. Not directly Kṛṣṇa, but from Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. There is viṣṇu-tattva: Kṛṣṇa, Balarāma, Saṅkarṣaṇa, Catur-vyūha, Nārāyaṇa. Dvitīya-catur-vyūha: again Saṅkarṣaṇa; from Saṅkarṣaṇa, Mahā-Viṣṇu; Mahā-Viṣṇu to Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu; Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, then Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu; in this way. So Kṛṣṇa is the origin. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ. Sarvasya means even this Mahā-Viṣṇu, Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, Nārāyaṇa, Saṅkarṣaṇa, Aniruddha, Pradyumna—everything. Then again the material world—Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara. Then from Brahmā so many demigods, in this way, this way. Therefore He is the ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ. This is the point. And the knowledge is also coming from Him. Knowledge is coming from Him.

It is explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, janmādy asya (SB 1.1.1): "The original person from whom everything is born," yataḥ, anvayād itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ, "He knows everything perfectly—indirectly and directly." Anvayād itarataś ca abhijñaḥ. And wherefrom He got the knowledge? Now, svarāṭ. That is His . . . God means svarāṭ. He hasn't got to get any knowledge from anyone else. Everyone gets knowledge from Him, but He hasn't got to take knowledge from anyone. Svarāṭ, independent. So the Brahmā, the first lord, first creature, living creature, so he got knowledge from Kṛṣṇa. Tene brahma hṛdā ādi-kavaye (SB 1.1.1): "That Supreme Person gave the knowledge to the ādi-kavi." Ādi-kavi means Lord Brahmā, the first learned man.

So our Vedic conception of life, creation, is not like the Darwin, that his first creation . . . I do not know what is, but they think that they'll get knowledge from monkey. (chuckles) But we do not take knowledge from monkey. (laughter) Therefore we do not keep ourself in darkness. If you take knowledge from monkey, then you remain always like monkey. You cannot be advanced. But here it is . . . Bhāgavata says, tene brahma hṛdā ādi-kavaye: we got knowledge directly from Kṛṣṇa, the most perfect. Therefore Brahmā is generated from Viṣṇu. So the first living creature, the perfect person within this material world who got instruction there, that is the beginning of creation. Beginning of creation is not crude or ignorance. Beginning of creation is first-class knowledge. That is the Vedic conception.

So Kṛṣṇa says that how you are thinking of the material . . . Material scientists, they are studying earth. What is called? Soil expert, they are studying soil: "Where is mine? Where is gold? Where is coal? Where is this, that?" So many things they are studying. But they do not know wherefrom these things came. Here is . . . Kṛṣṇa explains that bhinnā me prakṛti: "This is My energy, My energy." How these different chemicals and earthly matters became manifested everyone is inquisitive, any thoughtful man. Here is the answer. Here is the answer, that,

bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ
khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca
ahaṅkāra itīyaṁ me
bhinnā prakṛtir aṣṭadhā
(BG 7.4)

Bhinnā prakṛtir aṣṭadhā. Just like I am speaking, it is being recorded, recorded. But in my absence, if the record is played, it will exactly vibrate the same sound. So that is my energy or anyone's energy, but bhinnā, separated from me. You have to understand like that. So everything is energy of God, Kṛṣṇa, but this material world means we are missing Kṛṣṇa. Wherefrom this energy has come? That point we are missing. Bhinnā. One who knows . . . Just like the same example. In the record the play is going on, but one who does not know who has recorded this speech, he cannot find out. But one who knows voice, he can understand, "It is coming from Prabhupāda, or the Swāmījī." Similarly, the energy is there, but because we have forgotten the source of the energy or we do not know the source of the energy, therefore we take material things as final. This is our ignorance.

This prakṛti, this material world, is composed of these things: bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca. So wherefrom this came? That Kṛṣṇa explains, that "They are My energies." Because we have to know, so . . . To understand Kṛṣṇa means one must know what is this earth, what is this water, what is this fire, what is this air, what is this sky, what is this mind, what is this ego. These material things, they should know that wherefrom these things came. They only theorize, that water is combination of some chemical, hydrogen, oxygen. But wherefrom the chemical came, hydrogen, oxygen, that they cannot answer. So therefore this is called acintya-śakti. Acintya-śakti. If you do not apply, if you refuse acintya-śakti, in God, acintya-śakti, inconceivable energy, then there is no God. Acintya-śakti-sampannaḥ.

Now you can understand what is that acintya-śakti. Acintya-śakti you have got also, acintya-śakti, everyone, because we are part and parcel of God. Therefore minute . . . But we are . . . What is the ratio? The ratio is, it is said in the śāstra . . . What is that? Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatadhā kalpitasya ca jīva-bhāgaḥ sa vijñeyaḥ sa cānantyāya kalpate. That keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya. Just giving an idea. What is that? The tip of the hair, just a small full stop, you divide this point into one hundred parts, and that one part again divide into one hundred parts. That is, mean, one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. That is a full-stop–like. That is the magnitude of the jīva, spirit, spiritual spark, molecular parts, atomic parts. So keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatadhā kalpitasya ca jīva-bhāgaḥ sa vijñeyaḥ sa anantyāya kalpate.

So there is magnitude, but because in the material eyes we can see simply the gross thing, the subtle things we cannot understand. But from the śāstra you have to understand, from the śruti. Then you'll understand. There is verse in the Bhagavad-gītā, indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ manasas tu parā buddhiḥ (BG 3.42). Just like here it is said mano buddhiḥ. Manasas ca parā buddhiḥ. Finer or superior than the mind is intelligence. That is . . . Another place it is also explained that gross thing means these senses. Indriyāṇi parāṇy āhuḥ. This is gross vision. I see a man means I see his body, his eyes, his ear, his hands and legs and everything. That is gross vision. But finer than these gross senses there is mind, which is controlling the senses. That you do not see. Indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ. Then mind is controlled by the intelligence. Manasas ca paro buddhiḥ.

So you have to study like that. Simply like layman if you dismiss that "There is no God, there is no soul," this is simply rascaldom, simply rascaldom. Don't remain rascals. Here is Bhagavad-gītā. Learn everything very particularly, very minutely. And it is open for everyone. Kṛṣṇa spoke Bhagavad-gītā to Arjuna not for Arjuna. He came for everyone, because He loves everyone. Everyone is son.

sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya
sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ
tāsāṁ mahad yonir brahma
ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā
(BG 14.4)

He is the seed-giving father. Don't take Kṛṣṇa as a foreigner or something else. No. He is your father, original father, seed-giving father. And the material nature is the mother. Just like father and mother, the father giving seeds, similarly, God gives the seeds, and the mother, material nature, gives the body. That you have got experience. The father gives the seed in the womb of the mother, and mother creates the body. Similarly, all living entities, they are coming from Kṛṣṇa. It is not possible to create by chemicals. That is not possible. But one who is not convinced, rascal, he tries to make chemical combination to create living beings. This is foolishness.

So because we are learning knowledge from śruti, from the perfect person, we will never be convinced. We shall challenge, "You create, rascal, create first of all. Then talk. Otherwise I shall kick." (laughter) This is our challenge. Because I know; we know very well that it will not be possible to create living being by combination of chemicals. He is talking nonsense. That is not possible. So we have to study from śruti. Then we become learned. Then we can know what is our constitutional position. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati (BG 18.54). Then he does not lament, and neither he aspires everything, because he knows everything is complete there, conducted by the Supreme Being. And the Supreme Being said, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10).

So this is the understanding of knowledge. So you take it very seriously, study Bhagavad-gītā and learn everything nicely, become learned, and jñānavān. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). And just try to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Then your life is successful.

Thank you very much.

Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break)

Prabhupāda: Any questions?

Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda? What happens to the mind, intelligence and false ego when the soul is liberated?

Prabhupāda: The soul has got its . . his mind . . . (loud sound of fire-cracker) What is this?

Indian man (2): Diwali festival.

Prabhupāda: Diwali. The soul is original consciousness. Soul has got his body, his mind, intelligence, everything. So this mind, material mind, is covered. As the soul is covered by the material things, similarly, the mind is also covered. So the spiritual life means as we become liberated, the mind also becomes liberated, the intelligence also becomes liberated. Any other question?

Indian man (3): When the soul leaves the body, does it go with the intelligence and ego and . . .

Prabhupāda: This material covering, that forces him to get another body according to the mind desires. At the time of death the mind's desire—he gets the similar body. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram (BG 8.6). Therefore we have to practice how to remember Kṛṣṇa at the time of death. Then immediately we are transferred to the spiritual world.

Indian man (4): At the time of death, soul goes with the actions of the past?

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is action. If you . . . Mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām (BG 9.25). If you practice devotional service, then at the time of death there is great possibility of understanding or remembering Kṛṣṇa. Mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām. So you have to practice. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means we are leading person to make the mind absorbed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then there is chance of remembering Kṛṣṇa at the time of death. And as Kṛṣṇa says, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9): "That person, after giving up this body, he does not get any more material body." Then what kind of body? Mām eti. He gets the similar body as Kṛṣṇa, sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha (Bs. 5.1), for eternal life of blissfulness.

Indian man (2): But suppose a rascal remembers at the time of death Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: A rascal cannot. (laughter) But even if he remembers . . .

Indian man (2): He'll go to Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (2): But what if they die in coma? What if they die in deep unconsciousness?

Prabhupāda: That is not very good. Coma is not good. That is the sign of sinful life. He must be conscious. That is good.

Devotee (5): Śrīla Prabhupāda, originally the desires come from the subtle body or from the soul?

Prabhupāda: No, mind.

Devotee (5): The mind.

Prabhupāda: Soul is now dependent on the mind; therefore mind has to be trained up. That is called yoga. Those who are too much in the bodily concept of life, the haṭha-yoga is recommended to control the mind. Yoga-indriya-saṁyamaḥ: "Yoga means to control the senses." So senses . . . The mind is the master of the senses. Therefore controlling the mind, yoga-indriya-saṁyamaḥ.

Devotee (6): Is there such a thing as having pure spiritual desires in the soul or not?

Prabhupāda: Spiritual, you are spiritual . . . Unless you understand that you are spirit, there is no question of practicing yoga or jñāna or bhakti. That is material platform—karmīs, mūḍhas. Unless you understand that you are Brahman, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, there is no question of other, higher processes. Higher, other processes, there are four things: karma, jñāna, yoga, bhakti. So karma is meant for the grossest persons who are simply interested with this body. That is karma. And who are baffled in this bodily concept of life, wants to know what is the actual life, that is jñāna. And then practice of yoga. And the ultimate is bhakti. All these are yoga—karma-yoga, jñāna-yoga, bhakti-yoga, haṭha-yoga—but Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, yoginām api sarveṣām: "Of all the yogīs," mad-gatenāntar-ātmanā, "one who is thinking of Me always," śraddhāvān, "with faith," bhajate. Bhajate means bhakti. From the word bhaja, bhakti comes. Bhaja-sevāyam. So bhaja-dhātu, it's called bhakti. So here the very word is used, bhajate mām. Śraddhāvān bhajate mām. That means bhakti-yoga. So one who is engaged in bhakti-yoga, he is recommended as the first-class yogī.

yoginām api sarveṣāṁ
mad-gatenāntar-ātmanā
śraddhāvān bhajate yo māṁ
sa me yuktatamo mataḥ
(BG 6.47)

Kṛṣṇa says, "He is first-class yogī." So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means we are trying to make all first-class yogīs.

Devotee (4): If we do not finish our Kṛṣṇa consciousness in this lifetime and we have to take birth in material world, can we worship the same spiritual master as our previous birth?

Prabhupāda: Who is fallen is called yoga-bhraṣṭa. So yoga-bhraṣṭa means he has fallen from the instruction of the spiritual master. But a spiritual master sometimes is so kind that he delivers him in the next birth also. But it is not our duty to bring the spiritual master to save me again in the next life. It is not very good disciple. (laughter)

Indian man (6): At the time of death some people becomes unconscious . . .

Prabhupāda: No unconscious. Consciousness there is. So long one is not death, mean, the soul is gone out of the body, his consciousness is there even in the sleeping condition.

Indian man (6): But can he hear? We say "Rāma, Rāma," can he hear that?

Prabhupāda: If he is fortunate.

Devotee (7): Śrīla Prabhupāda? Kṛṣṇa, He give us five gross sense, and then He wants us to control. How?

Brahmānanda: Kṛṣṇa gives us five gross senses and He wants us to control them. How can we do this?

Prabhupāda: How you are being trained up? You do not know that? Why you are forbidden, "No illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling"? This is controlling. If you don't accept this controlling, then you are lost.

Indian man (8): Śrīla Prabhupāda, from time immemorial we see that in India every time there has been a religious reform . . .

Prabhupāda: Why you are bringing India? Is it meant we are simply for Indian, do you think?

Indian man (8): No, no.

Prabhupāda: Then why bring in India?

Indian man (8): It is not as a nation. I'm just referring it because of the auspiciousness, that every time there has been a religious reformer or a prophet, he has been treated very nicely, but in other parts of the world, prophets or religious reformers have been mistreated.

Prabhupāda: Anyone who does not know what is Bhagavad-gītā and Kṛṣṇa, he is a rascal; he is not a prophet. He's a rascal. Nobody can become prophet without full knowledge of Kṛṣṇa. Not that everyone will become and be a prophet. No. That is stated in the Bhagavad . . . Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). Anyone who has not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he is a narādhama. How he becomes a prophet? (laughter) Just see. Don't bring so-called prophets. They are all narādhamas, lowest of the mankind—and he is prophet. No. Prophet is not so cheap. Don't be misguided by these rascals. Kṛṣṇa says—it is not our manufacture—the sign, that anyone who does not know about Kṛṣṇa and he has not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he is narādhama.

Indian man (9): Is it that a man becomes a man after the death?

Prabhupāda: No guarantee.

Indian man (9): He may go to an animal.

Prabhupāda: Species. He may become a dog, and he may become a demigod also, according to his karma. Mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām. Api. Yānti deva-vratā devān pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ bhūtejyā yānti bhūtāni (BG 9.25). So according to his karma, he gets the next body. There is no guarantee that he'll get human body. Therefore it is very risky civilization at the modern time. They do not know what is the goal of life. Simply like cats and dogs they are eating, sleeping, having sex life and dying. That's all. They do not know. Very risky life. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum. This is the statement of the śāstra. "These rascals, they do not know that what is the goal of life, to understand Viṣṇu or Kṛṣṇa." Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). In the external energy of Kṛṣṇa, this bhūmir āpo . . . Bhinnā prakṛtir me aṣṭadhā. Bhinnā. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ. Bahir artha means this external, separated energy, material en . . . They are trying to become happy by adjustment of this bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ (BG 7.4). They are implicated with this bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ, external. Bahir-artha-māninaḥ. So they are andha, blind. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. And they are leading other blind men. That's all.

Indian man (9): The Westerns are more unsure than the Easterns, or . . .?

Prabhupāda: No, Eastern are more at the present moment. This is the world. Material world is andha, all blind. There is no question of "Eastern" or "Western." This is our manufacture, that Eastern is better than the Western. Just like stool. Stool, upside, little dry, and the downside, it is moist. If you say, "This side is better than the downside," (laughter) it is after all stool. So what is better side or . . .? (laughter) We don't make such things as "Eastern" and "Western." We test whether he's Kṛṣṇa conscious. That's all. All right. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda. (end).