750803 - Lecture SB 01.02.09 at University - Detroit

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His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



750803S2-DETROIT - August 03, 1975 - 48:44 Minutes



Prabhupāda: Water? (break)

...sya
na arthaḥ arthāya upakalpate
na arthasya dharmaikāntasya
kāmo lābhāya hi smṛtaḥ
(SB 1.2.9)

Dharma, generally it is understood "religion." Religion means a kind of faith. So that is not the proper meaning of dharma, "faith." Faith one may have, one may not have. But actually dharma means compulsory: it must be. Just like sugar. Sugar must be sweet. There is no question of sometimes becoming sweet and sometimes becoming bitter. That is not sugar. Sugar must be sweet. Similarly, dharma is also a "must be." It cannot be option, or a kind of faith which you can change at your whims. That is not dharma. Dharma means "must be." The same example: A particular thing has a particular characteristic. The sugar characteristic is sweetness. Chili is hot. Similarly, everything has got its characteristic. Just like microphone. I am speaking; it must resound. That is the characteristic. That is dharma: which cannot be separated. If sweetness is separated from sugar, it is no longer sugar. Similarly, dharma means that. Dharma means, real meaning is, characteristic. The characteristic of the living being is to serve. Caitanya Mahāprabhu gave this instruction: jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa (CC Madhya 20.108-109). That is the characteristic of all living entities, to become servant, to become servant of Kṛṣṇa. But when we do not serve Kṛṣṇa, then, because my constitutional position is to serve, I have to serve māyā. If you don't serve Kṛṣṇa, then you will have to serve māyā. Because you have no other business than to serve. Just like a servant class: If he gives up one master, he must accept another master. May be better master, but master he has to accept. Just like dog. Without accepting a master, it is street dog. It has no position. So dharma means that the characteristic of the living being.

So here it is, says, dharmasya hy āpavargyasya na artha arthāyopakalpate. There are four principles in the material world: dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa (SB 4.8.41, CC Ādi 1.90). Human life begins from religious life, because in the animal life there is no religion. Animal life—cats' life, dogs' life, tigers' life, or any other less than human being... Especially civilized human being all over the world, there is some type of religion, either it may be Hindu religion or Christian religion or Muhammadan religion or Buddhist religion. That is the sign of civilized human society. Dharmeṇa hīnaḥ paśubhiḥ samānaḥ. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca sāmānyam etat paśubhiḥ narāṇām (Hitopadeśa 25). Eating, sleeping, sex life and defense, they are common either to the human being or to the animals. So what is the difference between animal and human being? The difference is that a human being, civilized being, has some sort of religious understanding. The cats and dogs, they have no such thing. That is the difference. Therefore, when human being becomes irreligious, without any religion, then it is no better than the cats and dogs. Dharmeṇa hīnaḥ paśubhiḥ samāṇaḥ.

So civilized human being must have religion. But religion does not mean to develop or improve economic condition. Generally people go to church, to temple, to express some, I mean to say, awful condition, ārtaḥ jijñāsuḥ. Catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtino 'rjuna. What is the next line? Ārto arthārthī jijñāsur jñānī ca bharatarṣabha (BG 7.16). Four classes of men in the beginning take to God consciousness if they are pious, sukṛtinaḥ. Sukṛti means pious. One who does not act sinfully, he is called sukṛti. And one who acts sinfully, he is called duṣkṛtina. So Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā that four classes of men, namely ārto arthārthī, if he is pious and if he is distressed, then he goes to church or temple: "My Lord, I am distressed. Please give me some help," prays to the Lord. And arthārthī, one who is poor, he also goes to pray to God to give him some money; he is in distressed condition. These two classes, and another two classes: jijñāsu, one who is inquisitive to understand what is God, and jñānī... Jñānī means one who understands his constitutional position. He is jñānī. Most people, they do not understand what he is and what is the goal of life. They are called ajñānī, "in ignorance." Just like animal. Animal does not know what is the aim of life. Similarly, if a human being does not know what is the aim of life, he is also animal. So catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtino 'rjuna, arthārthī jñānī, jijñāsur jñānī ca bharatarṣabha (BG 7.16).

So this is beginning of life. To try to understand, to approach God, that is the beginning of human civilized life. Therefore, in the Vedic civilization, there are four principles: dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa. Dharma means religious principle, to understand. And economic development—because we require money, after all, to keep this body fit—that is also required. Dharma, artha, kāma. Kāma means sense gratification. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca. To eat, to make arrangement for eating, to make arrangement for sleeping, to make arrangement for sense gratification and to make arrangement for defense—these are necessities of the body. These are called kāma. Dharma artha kāma mokṣa (SB 4.8.41, CC Ādi 1.90). And at last, to become liberated, mokṣa. Mokṣa means to get out of the entanglement of material miserable condition of life. That is called mokṣa. What is the material miserable condition of life? There are many. But the essence is, as presented by Kṛṣṇa, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). Everyone is trying, struggling for existence, to get out of the miserable condition of life. Everyone is trying. The standard of miserable condition may be different. One has got a million dollar; he thinks, "This is miserable condition. I must have ten times of this money. Then I will be happy." And one has got one hundred million dollars..., or one hundred dollars, he thinks that "If thousand dollars I get..." In this way, everyone is trying to approach a position where he will be happy.

That is... The Vedānta-sūtra says that ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). Because we are spirit soul, our position is ānandamāyā. Ānandamāyā means always blissful. Because we are part and parcel of God... God is blissful, all-good, sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). His form... He has got form. He is not formless. But His form is different. That form is sat-cit-ānanda. Sat means eternal, and cit means full of knowledge, and ānanda means full of bliss. So we are part and parcel of God. Kṛṣṇa says, mamaivāṁśo jīva bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7): "All these living entities, they are My part and parcel." So if Kṛṣṇa is sat-cit-ānanda, then we are also sat-cit-ānanda, because we are part. Just like gold and a gold small particle, that is also gold. You cannot say it is something else. No. So part or whole, it may be. That is difference. Part is never equal to the whole. But quality is the same. Therefore we, being part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, we are trying to utilize our original constitutional position. This is going on.

But we are doing that without Kṛṣṇa at the present moment. Therefore it is not successful. Part must remain with the whole. I have given this example many times, that a small screw of typewriter or any machine, it must remain with the whole machine. Then it has value. If it is out of the machine, there is no value. A small screw in the motorcar, so long it is with the motorcar, it has got value. And as soon as it is thrown out of the motorcar, it has no value. So similarly, we are part and parcel of God, Kṛṣṇa. If we remain with Kṛṣṇa... Just like we are part and parcel of our family, father, mother. And father is opulent. So if we remain with father and mother, we are also opulent. But if we give up the company of father and mother... Father and mother, not ordinary father and mother. Opulent. God is opulent. So then we are also opulent. And if we give up the company of father and mother, want to live independently, then we are in distress. This is our position.

Therefore it is said here, dharmasya hy āpavargyasya. One should execute religion just to become free from this māyā and go back to home, back to Godhead. That is dharma. Therefore Kṛṣṇa personally comes and instructs that "My dear sons, My dear part and parcel, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). You are suffering here in this material world repeatedly, birth after birth. Still, you are not in sense." Therefore He said to Kṛṣṇa..., Arjuna that "Because you are My intimate friend, I am just instructing you the most confidential part of dharma." What is that? Now, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja: "This is your duty."

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is teaching the same principle. What Kṛṣṇa taught five thousand years ago in the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra to Arjuna, we are broadcasting the same message. We have not manufactured anything new. That is not dharma. Dharma cannot be manufactured. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Just like law cannot be manufactured. If you manufacture some law at your home, that will not be accepted. Maybe some people, your friend, your relatives or your family members, may accept. But that cannot be accepted by all, law. But the law given by the government must be accepted by everyone. Similarly, dharma means the law given by God. That is dharma. Not that I manufacture this dharma, you manufacture another dharma, you manufacture another... That may be partially good, but it is not dharma. Dharma is... Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). That is the definition. Just like law is made by the government. The government makes the law, "Keep your car to the right." That has to be accepted by everyone. You cannot say, "Why not left? In India we keep our car on the left side. Why not here?" No. Then it will be unlawful. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa says, "This is dharma." Not that yata mat tata pat, whatever you manufacture, that is dharma. No. That is rascaldom. This is dharma: sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66), only one. That is dharma.

So here Sūta Gosvāmī is explaining that what is dharma. Dharma means dharmasya hy āpavargyasya (SB 1.2.9). Dharma means to disentangle yourself from these material complexities. That is dharma. Now, the same thing... Anywhere you go, the Vedic literature, the same thing is there. Dharma means to mold your life in such a way that ultimately you become disentangled from this complication of material life. The complication of..., essence of the complication is janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9): birth, death, old age and disease. This is material complication, because we living entity, na jāyate na mriyate vā (BG 2.20): we have no birth, no death. This is our position. We are... Simply we are changing body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). These are the instruction, that dehāntara-prāptir. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Just like these children, they have got a body now; this will be changed. When they will be young, a different body, and the young man, when he will be old, a different body. Similarly, the old man, when he will finish this body, he will get a different body. This is called dehāntara-prāptiḥ, accepting another body.

So we are changing, but we are so fool that we do not understand what is the real problem of life. We are simply busy in some temporary problems. Real problem is that a living being is eternal, and by the laws of nature, by his karma, he has to change his body. That is real problem. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. And we can see, if we have got eyes, that there are many varieties of life, 8,400,000 varieties of life. Jalajā nava-lakṣāni sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati (Padma Purāṇa). So Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. According to your karma, you will get another body. That what kind of body I shall get, that I do not know. Then what is your education? Suppose you are being educated. You know aim, that "I shall become a lawyer," "I become a scientist," "I shall become mathematician." With this purpose you are being educated. But what purpose you are being educated for the next life? Do you know this? No. Then what is your education? You may be very good scientist, but can you manufacture a scientific law that you will never die? No. That is not possible. You will never take birth after death? You will never be diseased? You can manufacture nice medicine for a type of disease, but you cannot stop disease. You cannot stop birth, you cannot stop death, you cannot stop disease, you cannot stop old age.

Therefore Kṛṣṇa gives the essence of knowledge, janma... Jñānī means one who can see, "What is the problem of my life." Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). This is the problem. Therefore dharma means āpavargyasya: how to avoid birth, death, old age and disease. Apavarga. Pavarga. Pavarga... Those who are educated in India, they know pa-varga, ka-varga, ca-varga, ta-varga. So here it is pa-varga: "pa, pha, ba, bha, ma." So pa means pariśrama, laboring. And pha means the hard laboring so that foam comes out of the mouth. Pa, pha, ba. Ba means baffled. In spite of all laboring hard, life is baffled. Pa, pha, ba, bha, and bha, bhaya. Bhaya means always fearful—"What will happen next?" And ma. Ma means mṛtyu. So in this way, struggling—pa, pha, ba, bha, ma—that is called pavarga. So here it is said, dharmasya hy āpavargyasya. Apa. Apa means just to make nullified this life of pavarga. That is, means, liberation, to come to the original position, spiritual life. Dharmasya hi āpavargyasya na arthāyopakalpate. Not that you go to church and temple and pray to God, "God, give me some money. I am in distressed condition. Please..." God can do that. It is not very difficult. He is doing already. The birds and beasts, they do not go to church or temple, but they have no problem. They are living very happy. So that is not the aim of life.

The aim of life is how to regain our God consciousness, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and love Him. Because we do not love God, therefore we have been obliged to love māyā, Satan. This is our present position. Therefore in this chapter, in beginning, is sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharma yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). There are different types of religious system, but that type of religious system is first class which teaches the follower how to love God. That is first class. Not to go to the church: "Give me my daily bread" or "Please minimize my troubles of life. Give me some money." No. This is also good, because one has gone to God, so he is in touch. Some way or other, he has gone to the fire. Then, if he keeps there, it will be warmer, warmer. But those who are duṣkṛtina, they do not go even to the God. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamaḥ (BG 7.15). So they are better than. One who goes to the church or temple and prays to God for minimizing his distressed condition, he is better than the atheist who never goes to God, because this man will get chance to understand God some day. And that man, the duṣkṛtina, narādhama, he will never get chance. This is the position now throughout the whole world. People are becoming godless more and more.

So this is very, very precarious condition of life. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is essential. It is not a fashion; it is essential, and everyone should take to it very seriously, because we do not know what we are getting the next life. Next life... The other day I was giving example in Berkeley. We were sitting within the room, and next to our window there was a tree standing. That is also living entity; we are also living entity. Just a yard from our room the tree is standing, but he has got so many disadvantage. He cannot move an inch. There is severe cold, there is scorching heat, there is blast, there is wind and sunshine, but he has no power to move. And we are human being. We are in a comfortable room. Why these different changes of condition, although the tree is also living being and I am also living being? Who has made this condition? But we have no knowledge. So I may get that condition next life. Then what is the value of my education? Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran loke tyajaty ante kalevaram (BG 8.6). Because at the time of death the, your mentality, my mentality will decide what kind of body I am going to get. That is under the laws of nature. You cannot dictate that "Give me this American life" or "Indian life." No. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). By your karma it will be decided whether you will be American, Indian, or snake or tree or bird. Daiva-netreṇa. Just like when you go to the court, the court will decide whether you will be punished or you will be rewarded. You cannot dictate to the court that "Sir, give me this judgment." No. That is not possible.

Similarly, here it is indicated that religion... What is religion? Religion should be to disentangle you from this material miserable condition. (break) Dharmasya hy āpavargyasya na arthāyopakalpate. Not that you go to church or temple and ask for some material benefit. No. That is not the... Na arthasya dharmaikāntasya. Arthasya. We are earning money by some occupation. That's all right. Then what is the purpose of this money? Now, if you are dharmic, dharmaikāntasya, if you are actually religious, then your money is not meant for sense gratification. Na arthasya. Dharmaikāntasya. Kāmo lābhāya hi smṛtaḥ. Not for your sense gratification. You should know that this money, excess money you have got, it is God's money.

Because in the Bhagavad-gītā we learn, bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ (BG 5.29). He is bhokta. He is bhokta. Bhokta means enjoyer. Just like we were just coming here. This Ford company and this company and so many there are. So the factory is going on. The bhokta is the managing director or the proprietor, not the worker. Worker can get their salary, that's all. So bhokta, real enjoyer, is the proprietor. Therefore nowadays the Communist party, they say, "We are working. Why this man should enjoy?" They struggle. So this struggle, either the worker become proprietor or the capitalist become proprietor, it is the same thing. Real proprietor is Kṛṣṇa. Bhoktāham. Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ. That we do not know. That we do not know. This kind of change will not help, the capitalist thinking that "I am bhokta," or the laborer thinking, "I am bhokta." Nobody is bhokta. Bhokta is Kṛṣṇa. If we try to understand... We can understand, because bhokta means the proprietor. So God is the proprietor, everything. You are manufacturing one big nice car, but who has manufactured this metal? Who has manufactured this wood with which you have manufactured a nice car? That is manufactured by a God. You have not manufactured. You are changing the shape from iron to iron seat, iron seat to another form. That's all. You can do that. You cannot manufacture.

So original proprietor is Kṛṣṇa. He says, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca, bhinnaṁ me prakṛtir aṣṭadhā... (BG 7.4). Me, "My." The earth, water, fire, air, sky, mind, intelligence... Even your intelligence is Kṛṣṇa's. With your intelligence, with ingredients of Kṛṣṇa, if you manufacture something, the proprietor is Kṛṣṇa. Because the... Just like a carpenter: You give the wood, the instrument, these labor charges. So when he manufactures a nice closet, who..., to whom it will belong? It will belong to the man who has supplied you all these things. Similarly, you may be changing the form of the material elements, but you are not proprietor. The proprietor is Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If we understand this philosophy, that "Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa..." That is the fact. And if you do not understand that, that is māyā. Māyā means not fact, mā-yā.

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is educating people in this way, that Kṛṣṇa is the enjoyer. You have seen Kṛṣṇa's picture. He is always enjoying. He is not working. That is Kṛṣṇa. God... In the Vedas the definition of God is given, na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate: "God has nothing to do." He is enjoyer. Where He will do? He will not work. Na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate na tat-samaś cābhyadhikaś ca dṛśyate (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.8): "Nobody is found equal to Him or greater than Him." That is God. Nowadays so many Gods coming from India... So God is one. Na tat-samaś abhyadhikaś ca. Nobody can be equal to Him; nobody can be greater than Him. That is God.

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ
sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ
anādir ādir govindaḥ
sarva-kāraṇam...
(Bs. 5.1)

Parama, controller. Īśvara means controller. So here in the material world we find that I am controller; I am controlled by somebody else. Then that controller is controlled by somebody else. So controller over controller over controller over... When you come to the point when the controller is there but no more controller upon him, that is God. That is God. If I am controlled by a dentist—a God has become affected with tooth trouble and goes to the... Then he is not God. Such kind of God we do not worship, that when there is some toothache, he goes to a doctor. So no, that is not God. God means īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (Bs. 5.1). And Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7): "There is no more superior authority than Me." And Arjuna accept, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12).

So in this way, try to understand what is dharma, what is God. And we can help you, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We have got now about fifty books, big, big books like that, to understand Kṛṣṇa, simply to understand Kṛṣṇa. So if you want to understand Kṛṣṇa through your education, through your scientific knowledge, philosophy, and whatever you like—yes, we can convince you. We have got so many books. But if you say that you have no money to purchase books, you are not so learned to... Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then you will understand Kṛṣṇa.

Thank you very much.

Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda. (offer obeisances)

Prabhupāda: Any question?

Jagadīśa: Any questions?

Prabhupāda: (aside:) Where is water? Water?

Devotee: Person in the back. A question?

Student: (indistinct)

Jagadīśa: He says, "Everybody knows God, but what's His name and how can we tell that He's God?"

Prabhupāda: You take from us. If you do not know what is the name of God, we give you His address, His father's name, everything.

Student: How am I to know He is God?

Prabhupāda: No, no. You are asking; we can give you. Now it is up to you to believe it or not believe it, but we can give you. Now you test whether it is real or not. That is your business. But we can give you the name of address, His father's name, His abode, everything, house number, everything. (laughter)

Devotee: There's a question there.

Indian man: In your opinion, what would be the relationship between Kṛṣṇa and Christ? In this country, everybody, many people... There are 250,000,000 people in this country. And I would say maybe ten percent of the people haven't heard about Kṛṣṇa. And I have discussions with people, and I try to explain as much as I can.

Prabhupāda: So why don't you inform them?

Indian man: No, I know that. But I mean, those people, they don't know that. Now what would you say... You know, if they believe in Christ, and if they are a true religious people within their own means, knowledge, and right, what would be their relationship as far as going to Vaikuṇṭha or mokṣa or whatever you say?

Prabhupāda: No, first of all your question is what is the relationship between Christ and Kṛṣṇa. You inquired this. So Christ says that he is son of God. So he is son of Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man: That was what I thought, but I could not convince people.

Prabhupāda: You should learn how to convince. (laughter) Without learning, how can you do it? First of all you become a disciple of Kṛṣṇa. Then you can teach. Tad-vijñānārtha... What is that?

tad viddhi praṇipātena
paripraśnena sevayā
upadekṣyanti tad jñānaṁ
jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ
(BG 4.34)

You should learn what is Kṛṣṇa from jñāninaḥ, tattva-darśinaḥ, who has seen Kṛṣṇa. So you can take. You can follow Arjuna. Arjuna has seen Kṛṣṇa. Arjuna has talked with Kṛṣṇa. Arjuna has taken instruction from Kṛṣṇa. What Arjuna says? Arjuna says, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān, puruṣaṁ śāśvatam ādyam (BG 10.12). You learn it. Why don't you learn from Arjuna? Then you will be able to convince others. You learn. That is your duty as Indian.

Indian man: Oh, I have accepted the fact...

Prabhupāda: So you become more enlightened. Read Bhagavad-gītā carefully. Then you will be able. These foreigners, they are doing that. And you, Indian, you cannot do it?

Indian man: No, I didn't say that I couldn't do it.

Prabhupāda: Then you... Then do it. If one is not convinced, you... As Indian, it is your duty.

Indian man: Oh, I accept that.

Prabhupāda: Yes, so do it now. Join with us and do it. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. He advises,

bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra
janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra
(CC Adi 9.41)

"Anyone who has taken birth in India as human being, he must first of all know the success of life and preach the cult to others, para-upakāra." This is the duty of every Indian, that you should learn Bhagavad-gītā perfectly well and preach it. That is your duty, all Indians. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. Bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra janma sārthaka kari' kara... They do not know it. They know that Christ is son of God. They have heard it. Now convince them that "Yes, there is no fighting between Christian or Kṛṣṇa-ite. One is worshiping the father; one is worshiping the son. So there is no difference." But īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (Bs. 5.1). Kṛṣṇa... He says that,

sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya
sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ
tāsāṁ mahad yonir brahma
ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā
(BG 14.4)

He is the father. That's all right. He identifies Himself as being the father, and Christ identifying himself as the son, then where is the difference? There is no difference. Either you learn from the son or from the father, the teaching will be the same.

Guest (2): I have a question. I think the...

Prabhupāda: Only a minority is Christian only.

Guest (2): The majority believe that Christ is also God—not just His son, but he is God also. That's part of the...

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, to... God... God and God's son, they are one and different simultaneously. That you, anyone, can understand, that a father and the son... The son is born out of the body of the father. So if the father is spirit, the son is also spirit, because the son is born out of the body of the father. So, so far the body is concerned, it is spiritual. But still, the relationship is father and son. It is called acintya-bhedābheda-tattva, simultaneously one and different. Anyone can understand: The child is the father's body. In that way it is one. But a child is the son, and the father is the father. So simultaneously one and different. So Christ is God and not God simultaneously.

Guest (3): Are you saying that through the unity of Kṛṣṇa there is also a unity of non-Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Jagadīśa: He's saying that within the unity of Kṛṣṇa is also...

Guest (3): There is also the unity of non-Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Well, in the higher sense there is nothing but Kṛṣṇa, or God.

Guest (3): Which is also non-Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: There is... Just like... I have already explained that, simultaneously one and not one. Just like the sunshine. You see the sun, and you see the sunshine. The sunshine is of the same quality, heat and light, and the sun is also heat and light, but when the sunshine comes within your room it does not mean the sun has come within your room. The heat and light is already there with the sunshine, but still, you cannot say sunshine is the sun.

Guest: (indistinct)

Jagadīśa: Can't hear. Speak louder.

Guest: (indistinct) (end)