750709 - Conversation - Chicago

Conversations by Date, 1975

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this lecture

750709R1-CHICAGO - July 09, 1975 - 50:13 Minutes

Prabhupāda: . . . still avoid that position. (laughter) Where is the independence? Eh? Where is the independence of woman that she has to carry the weight of the pregnancy and the man is free? What is the answer to this question? Hmm? Answer, Viśakha.

Viśakha: A woman is trapped by her body.

Prabhupāda: Hey?

Viśakha: She has no choice. By her body she must.

Prabhupāda: So she is already dependent on nature's law that man is free from becoming pregnant and the woman has to take the burden. Then where is the independence, equal right? Equal right means sometimes man may become pregnant, sometimes woman may become pregnant. But why only womans should become pregnant and the man goes away, and she has to take care of the children, beg from government or this and that? Is that independence? Eh?

Satsvarūpa: For them, the independence has become contraception. "I don't have to have the child," they say.

Prabhupāda: That means you commit another sinful activity. Then you become dependent on nature. You'll be punished. The punishment goes to you. In this way . . . and the whole thing becomes cumbrous. So where is the benefit of equal right, independence? Phalena paricīyate. We have to see the result of every action—whether the result is beneficial. If the result is not beneficial, the action is not beneficial. There is cases of rape cases. The victims are women. Why the victim is not man? Why? In every rape case the sufferer, or the victim, is woman. And why not the man?

Jagadīśa: Male means predominator, female means predominated.

Prabhupāda: Then? Where is the independence? Why artificial independence?

Harikeśa: In this brain weight matter, the sixty-four ounce and thirty-six ounce, is that every brain, male brain, is . . .?

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Harikeśa: No. That is what they think you've said, that every male brain is sixty-four ounces, every woman is thirty-six ounces.

Prabhupāda: No, no. The highest brain substance found in man is sixty-four ounce.

Harikeśa: They did not understand that.

Satsvarūpa: He said it clearly.

Prabhupāda: And the highest brain substance in woman found, thirty-six ounce. So that proportion is always there. It may be twenty ounce, forty ounce, but brain substance in man is more than the woman. That is a fact, always.

Harikeśa: Is that in the Vedas also?

Prabhupāda: No, I am talking of the psychology. I have given the name, Dr. W. S. Urquhart. When I was student, he said. So he is a great authority in psychology. So I have given the date. But they say: "Now they have improved." Then what can be said? But they could not improve this position: they have become pregnant. For the last hundred and thousands and millions of years, in the history we hear that woman is pregnant. We never heard the man is pregnant. So where is the progress? If you are actually making progress, so millions of years ago, the history we hear . . . even Rāmacandra, millions of years, Lord Rāmacandra. Sītā became pregnant, not Rāmacandra. If you take history, now where is the improvement? Millions of years ago, Rāmacandra. Sītā became pregnant, not Rāmacandra. The law of woman's becoming pregnant, millions of years was there. And what improvement have they made now? They say: "We have made improvement." What is that improvement? Millions of years ago, Sītā, she became pregnant, and Rāmacandra did not become pregnant. Man did not. So what is the improvement at the present moment? Is there any instance, a man is now becoming pregnant and not the woman? So where is the improvement?

Jagadīśa: Even all species of life it is the same.

Prabhupāda: Inauspicious?

Brahmānanda: In all other species.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Even in animals, the female animal becomes pregnant. That is the law. So where is independence? Let them pass resolution that, "Henceforward, man will have to become pregnant." Is it possible?

Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the whole civilization, American Western civilization, is now bewildered by this theory of woman's liberation.

Prabhupāda: But how they will be liberated on this point? First of all let me know.

Jagadīśa: They're simply crazy.

Harikeśa: They may bring up the argument that they are not concerned that they have to bear children just as long as they can be superior.

Prabhupāda: Oh. This argument is like, "You go on beating me with shoes; still I am independent. I don't mind you are beating me with shoes, but I am independent." It is the argument like that.

Devotee (1): There were supposed to be some aldermen here, but one of them was a woman, and it has been on the news already about what you've said, and she doesn't want to come now.

Prabhupāda: Alderman?

Brahmānanda: They're like city councilmen. But in this case it's a city councilwoman. So she has refused to come because the comment . . . there has been a lot of publicity . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughter) So they are speaking on the radio that, "The Swamiji has come to solve all the problems by saying that woman is inferior to men."

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's a fact. (laughter) So what the man says?

Harikeśa: They are being quiet. They are too afraid to say.

Prabhupāda: That means they are accepting. When they are quiet . . . quiet means . . . maunaṁ śammati lakṣaṇam. If there is some argument and you remain quiet, that means indirectly you accept.

Harikeśa: They are thinking that if the man were to speak out, then he would not be able to get his sex pleasure. The woman would withhold sex pleasure from the man if he were to speak out.

Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. At least in America, I know, they pay man for sex pleasure. Is it not a fact? Eh?

Jagadīśa: I didn't hear, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Sometimes woman pays man for sex pleasure.

Jagadīśa: Sometimes, yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there is one lady, she would like to come and see you. She is the mother of one of our devotees. But she is coming wearing tilaka and a bead bag.

Prabhupāda: Very good. (pause) But I am not speaking of my experience. When we speak, we speak from the śāstra. So this woman's in . . . dependence is described in Manu-saṁhitā. And there are many instances. Just like Kuntī. Kuntī was not ordinary woman. She was very learned, exalted woman.

Brahmānanda: This is one point, that in our devotional line there are spiritual leaders who have been women, such as Kuntī. She gave . . .

Prabhupāda: But still . . . therefore I say, still, she remained dependent on their son. That is my proposal. Just like the sons, they lost the game and they were to be banished. Kuntī was not banished. So when the sons went to forest, Kuntī also followed because she thought that, "I am widow. I am dependent on my sons. So wherever my sons will remain, I shall remain." She was not . . . she did not lose the game; neither she was ordered to go to the forest. Similarly, Sītā. Sītā, wife of Lord Rāmacandra. Lord Rāmacandra was requested by His father to go to the forest, not Sītā. Sītā was also a king's daughter. So she could go to her father that "My husband is going to the forest. Let me go to my father's house." She did not go. She preferred that "I shall go with my husband." So when husband said that, "You are not banished. You stay at home," she said: "No. I am dependent on You. Wherever You shall go, I must go." This is Vedic culture.

Brahmānanda: Her virtue was her chastity.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Brahmānanda: Her chastity was her great virtue.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the thing.

Brahmānanda: Nowadays that is no longer true.

Prabhupāda: Nowadays may be different, but I am speaking of the Vedic ideas, that woman in all circumstances, unless the husband is crazy or something like that, mad, or . . . in every case the instance is that wife is faithful and subservient to the husband. That is the Vedic culture. Even the husband goes out of home, vānaprastha, the wife also goes with him. When he takes sannyāsa, at that time there is no accompaniment of wife. Otherwise, in gṛhastha life and even vānaprastha life, the wife is constant companion and subservient. That is the history of Vedic culture. History . . . Gāndhārī, because her husband was blind, so when the marriage settlement was done, she was not blind, but she voluntarily became blind by wrapping cloth.

Devotee (2): She remained with the cloth wrapped for her whole life?

Prabhupāda: Whole life.

Devotee (2): Whole life.

Prabhupāda: She voluntarily became blind. And up to the last point of her husband's precarious condition, she remained with him. These are the examples. There are other examples. Damayantī. They became so poor that they had no clothing. So the one cloth divided into two, husband and wife. So these instances are in the Vedic literature, that wife remains always faithful and subservient to the husband. That is their perfection. Now the Americans may not like this idea. That is different thing. But we are speaking of the Vedic culture. And these are the instances, vivid instances. Why Sītā accompanied her husband? And because she accompanied her husband in the jungle, the war between Rāma-Rāvaṇa became possible. And it is the advice that, "When you go to other countries, you should not take your wife." Pathe narī-vinārjitaḥ. Because it may create some trouble. But still, the faithful wife goes with the husband.

Brahmānanda: You've used the example of this, that woman is less intelligent of the size of the brain, given by one professor in 1920. So they took offense to this because their idea is that what might have been scientific fact in 1920, in 1975 is not scientific fact.

Prabhupāda: Then where is the proof? From 1920 to 1975, where is a woman who is extraordinarily bigger than man?

Brahmānanda: Well, they might be able to bring some scientist who would say in 1975 that according to their calculations, there is no difference between the brain of a woman and the brain of a man.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: In other words, that what is considered scientific fact, that changes according to the social ideas that are prevalent in a particular time.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Social ideas, there is no standard social idea. That is another thing. You can change in any way. But so far physiological conditions, that has not changed. The feature of the woman's body has not changed. So how the brain will change? The bodily feature of woman as it was in 1920, it is still going on. Outwardly we see. So how inwardly it is changed? In 1920 the woman was becoming pregnant. So there is no change now, that man is pregnant. So how you say there is change?

Brahmānanda: I don't know, but she said that they have spoken to scientists and that scientists say that the woman's brain . . . now a scientist says a woman's brain and a man's brain is not different.

Nitāi: No, no. She said that even though the woman's brain may be smaller, that that doesn't make a difference in intelligence.

Harikeśa: No, they think it is the creases in the brain. Just like Einstein had a very small brain, but there were many creases, so they say that's why he was very intelligent, because there were creases.

Prabhupāda: But since 1920 to up to date in the history, there have been many great personalities or very prominent personalities, but where is the history that women are greater than the man or are equal to the man in the history?

Satsvarūpa: They have a standard answer to that, that the women have always been oppressed, that the women could have become great philosophers and writers and politicians, but they were always kept in the home. So now they're going to change this, they say. It's only due to the man's oppressing them and keeping them down.

Prabhupāda: So this pregnancy is also pressing. The man has pressed to become pregnant? This is man's pressure or nature's?

Brahmānanda: Of course, they will try to stop that. Through contraceptive methods and abortion, they will try to stop having children.

Prabhupāda: But that is not stopping. That is artificially taking some other measures. That is not stopping.

Harikeśa: The two countries that have women as leaders are in the headlines all the time. Like Israel, Golda Meir, they are always war between there and Egypt.

Brahmānanda: Argentina also.

Harikeśa: Argentina, and India. Now there will be war. Wherever there is woman in charge, there is war, disruption. But they think because they are in charge, that proves they are equal.

Prabhupāda: I think in Indian history she is the first woman to be in charge of the state. Before her, there is no instance of woman becoming in charge.

Brahmānanda: In Sri Lanka also, they have woman in charge. That is also considered Indian.

Prabhupāda: According to Manu-saṁhitā, which is Vedic laws, it is said that, "Woman is not to be given freedom." They have to be protected. According to Vedic civilization, women, children, old man, brāhmaṇa and cow—they are to be given protection. The state should give protection. (break) . . . the defect of modern civilization is that vox populi.

Nitāi: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Everything is passed by popular vote. But that is also, I mean to say, defective.

Brahmānanda: You brought that out nicely by giving the example of Nixon. He received the largest popular vote of any president in the history, and he was also then pulled down.

Prabhupāda: Indira Gandhi also. She got the largest number of vote . . .

Brahmānanda: Even more than her father, she received.

Prabhupāda: So what is the value of these votes? If by vote if you select a wrong man, and again you try to drag him down, then what is the use of this popular vote? Even in Communist country, the . . . what is called, Krushchev? He was the head. Now nobody knows where he is.

Brahmānanda: Stalin also. He was . . .

Prabhupāda: Stalin died.

Brahmānanda: But after he died, they completely discredited him. They pulled down his statues and he was completely disgraced.

Devotee: A nonperson, they call him.

Prabhupāda: None?

Devotee: It's the word they give. Like Krushchev also is a nonperson.

Prabhupāda: None.

Brahmānanda: Well, they consider them not to have existed.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Brahmānanda: It is such a . . . in that way they have disgraced . . .

Prabhupāda: Erased from the history.

Brahmānanda: Yes. (pause)

Prabhupāda: So it will create some agitation?

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Harikeśa: Oh, yes.

Devotee: It was NBC?

Brahmānanda: No, it's a local station.

Harikeśa: They may put that on nationwide. It's such hot news. (laughter)

Brahmānanda: I was seeing in one of these Time magazines. On the rear page they're advertising a cigarette that is especially meant for women. It's a slimmer size. The larger size is for the men; the slimmer size is for the women. And the title of the advertisement . . . they show one picture of a woman cleaner, sweeper. She is cleaning the floors. This picture was taken in the 1920s. It was taken in Washington D.C., because in the background they show the Capitol building is there in Washington D.C. So then they have a picture of a modern woman. She's sitting there looking very nice. And they say that, "You've come a long way, baby." (laughter) That whereas in the 1920s you were sweeping the floors, and now you're sitting on a throne.

Prabhupāda: "So you accept this cigarette."

Brahmānanda: Yes. "This cigarette is meant just for you, to show that you're superior."

Prabhupāda: I think there was some objection, woman taking this objection, why woman's idol should be displayed in the shopkeeper's show windows.

Brahmānanda: The mannequins.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There was some protest. Generally, they keep the dolls of woman, beautiful woman. So there was some protest.

Brahmānanda: They even now have protested, er . . .

Prabhupāda: In advertisement also. Woman's pictures are so many. So why they are taking woman's picture? We also say that maidservant, 1920. Now she has become. Like the woman . . . there are many men like that. Why not men? Why they are taking advantage of the woman? Why there is no protest that, "Why you are taken?" There are many men who has improved from 1920 up to date. Why don't you give that picture? Why woman's picture? Where is the protest? Whenever there is some fashion dress, the woman's picture is given. Why? Is there any protest by the women for this, that "Why you are taking advantage of woman?"

Jagadīśa: These days the men are doing that also more and more, dressing up so fancy and getting their pictures in the magazines.

Prabhupāda: Of women?

Jagadīśa: Men also. Nowadays men are also doing that, thinking that it's so important to dress in fancy clothes.

Prabhupāda: No, dress, that's all right. But generally they present woman's picture.

Brahmānanda: Yes, they protest that this shows that woman is being exploited.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: Actually, they are just feeling frustrated, because it is a fact that woman has been exploited by the men. So now they want to counteract this.

Prabhupāda: No, we don't say that woman should be exploited by men. We say the man should be responsible and give protection to woman.

Brahmānanda: But they feel so angry from the exploitation that they cannot accept that actually a man could protect them.

Prabhupāda: That is bad experience. But the ideal is different. Ideal is that man must be first class and he must be responsible to take care of the woman, and she should be given all protection, all necessities. That is the duty of man. Just like father takes the charge of his daughter, similarly, husband should take charge of the woman. And similarly, elderly sons also took charge of the woman. The father never exploits the daughter. She (he) gives all protection. That is the duty of the husband also. When she is grown up, she cannot remain under the protection of father. She is given, therefore, to a suitable boy to take charge. But the charge is the same—to give protection, all comforts. And because there is no first-class man to take charge of the woman, they are declaring independence. All the men are doing that. They keep girlfriend, make her pregnant and go away, goes away.

Brahmānanda: In that sense we can say that the women are inferior, but the men also, they are not first class. They are also . . .

Prabhupāda: That we also said, that there is no first-class men. So if there is first-class men, then whole question is solved.

Jagadīśa: The men are behaving just like dogs.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: Today in the hotel where we went there was one barber shop. And the name of the barber shop was, "The home of the dog."

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: What is the meaning?

Brahmānanda: Well, the idea is that the haircuts of the men are so long, they look like . . .

Prabhupāda: Dog.

Brahmānanda: . . . shaggy dogs.

Prabhupāda: After all, all these questions can be solved if people become Kṛṣṇa conscious. There is no such discrimination. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 5.18). These distinctions are there on the material platform. On the spiritual platform there is no such distinction.

Brahmānanda: Well that is something that the reporters did not understand. This point was not discussed very fully, that actually we don't . . . we are not unkind to women, we are not exploiting them as others do, because one who is in the spiritual life, he feels he is equal to . . . men, women does not matter.

Prabhupāda: So you can write that spiritually, there is no such distinction. Spiritually, Kṛṣṇa says that "Although there is distinction in the material field, low and high, but one who takes shelter of Me . . ." Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ, striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās. Find out this verse.

Brahmānanda:

māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya

ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ

striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās

te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatiṁ

(BG 9.32)

"O son of Pṛthā, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth—women, vaiśyas, merchants, as well as śūdras, workers—can approach the supreme destination." Purport: "It is clearly declared here by the Supreme Lord that in devotional service there is no distinction between the lower or higher classes of people. In the material . . . (break) . . . than great jñānīs and yogīs."

Jagadīśa: But this point of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is very difficult to understand, and it will only be possible for a very few persons to grasp this truth. Therefore you are encouraging us to introduce the proper social system so that gradually people may understand. Otherwise they could never accept Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness is understood by the first-class men. In the social system, if we don't keep a first-class man, a section, then it will not be possible, socially. Or if next alternative, that everyone agrees to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, then it will be possible. That is the simplest method. You become first class or last class; it doesn't matter. You take to this chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, then you become equally in spiritual consciousness. So it is already published in the paper?

Brahmānanda: Well, all the radio stations are carrying it. And the TV will probably have it tonight. Actually, this one purport might clarify the disagreement. They may not be so angry.

Prabhupāda: Why do they not understand, by nature's discrimination the woman is put into greater difficulty by bearing child?

Brahmānanda: That is the one thing they cannot avoid. They cannot escape.

Prabhupāda: Why this arrangement is by nature? How they can change it?

Brahmānanda: Someone was telling me that there have been many instances that when women are being taken to the hospital to give birth to their children—they're in the ambulance, and they are experiencing the pains—that they are cursing their husbands, "Why you have given me this pain?"

Prabhupāda: Yes, because birth pain is very severe.

Brahmānanda: They vow never to have sex again at that time. (laughs) But . . .

Prabhupāda: (laughs) That śloka I was . . . tṛpyanti neha kṛpanā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ (SB 7.9.45). To . . . the sex life and the aftereffects are full of miserable condition, so once they have sex life, they become . . . woman becomes pregnant, and the painful conditions are passed. But still, he or she is not satisfied, again takes the same thing, entailed by so many sufferings. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpana. Because he has no knowledge, he commits the same thing again.

Jagadīśa: Chewing the chewed.

Prabhupāda: Both of them suffer. But irresponsible father avoids, then the both suffering comes on the woman. She suffers the pain, birth pain, and suffers to raise the children. And the man goes away. How they are going to solve this problem? What is their answer? They become dependent on the man during sex life and purchases the pain, birth pain, and accuses the husband. And then, when the child is born she has to take care. The father may go away. The mother cannot give up the care of the children. Out of affection she is carrying two child. So these are the aftereffects. So can the woman avoid sex, which is entailed with so much sufferings? She submits. So where is the independence? Therefore, if one is spiritually advanced, then she becomes.

Brahmānanda: Then he becomes.

Prabhupāda: She can become equal with man. Spiritually advanced man and woman, they are equal. So long one is materially encaged, this is not possible. (pause)

Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Winnipeg there is one very pious east Indian man who for many years has been worshiping, somewhat, worshiping Lord Śiva. And his wife is also a very . . . quite chaste woman and sincere follower—and so were her parents—of Lord Śiva. And he is reading your Bhagavad-gītā. He visits our temple. And I have given him the first volume of Canto Four, which discusses Lord Śiva a great deal. And he has read in one of your purports that Kṛṣṇa is more pleased when you worship His devotee than when you worship Him directly. And Lord Śiva is a very great devotee of Kṛṣṇa. So he has now interpreted that to mean that if he worships Lord Śiva so nicely, then actually he is pleasing Kṛṣṇa more. So he is experiencing some difficulty because of this, and I'm not quite sure how to instruct him that actually . . .

Prabhupāda: Difficulty?

Brahmānanda: That . . . our Godbrother has difficulty in replying to this interpretation that Kṛṣṇa says: "You can please Me by worshiping My devotee," and Lord Śiva is the devotee of Kṛṣṇa. So therefore this man says: "Then I shall worship Lord Śiva. In that way I shall please Kṛṣṇa."

Prabhupāda: But if he accepts Lord Śiva is devotee of Kṛṣṇa, then by worshiping Lord Śiva he will be benefited. If he thinks Lord Śiva is independent, then he will not be benefited.

Devotee (3): I've got him to accept that Lord Śiva is devotee of Kṛṣṇa, but there's no practical instruction in his worldly activities coming.

Prabhupāda: No. Vaiṣṇavānām yathā śambhuḥ (SB 12.13.16): "Amongst the Vaiṣṇavas, Śaṁbhu, Lord Śiva, is the greatest Vaiṣṇava." So we worship Lord Śiva as Vaiṣṇava. We give respect to Vaiṣṇavas. So why not Lord Śiva? Lord Śiva is a big Vaiṣṇava. But generally, the devotees of Lord Śiva, they take Lord Śiva is independent god. That is offensive. If you know that Lord Śiva is also a devotee, you can give more respect to Lord Śiva. Kṛṣṇa will be pleased.

Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, he does not chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, he chants oṁ śivāya namaḥ.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Devotee (3): It's all right?

Prabhupāda: He will gradually become devotee. When God . . . Lord Śiva, will be pleased upon him, he will advise to worship.

Devotee (3): He is already trying to tell him to follow in your footsteps, Gurudeva. So just before I left he said he will try once again to chant sixteen rounds of japa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. He has tried already. He has a taste for . . .

Prabhupāda: If he simply understands that Lord Śiva is a Vaiṣṇava, and if he worships Lord Śiva, then he will get the benefit.

Brahmānanda: I was just thinking that in Hyderabad you also spoke something very unpopular when you were discussing about the worship of Lord Śiva and Lord Kṛṣṇa. And you used the example of the milk and the curd.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: And one man in the audience, he asked you, "Who is the milk and who is the curd?" And you said that "Kṛṣṇa is the milk, and Śiva is the curd." And he did not like that.

Prabhupāda: There is milk and the curd. So one must become milk, one must become curd. So if Kṛṣṇa is the origin of everything, then He must be the milk. Sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam.

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ

sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

(Bs. 5.1)

So He is the cause of all causes. So if milk is the cause of curd, then Kṛṣṇa is the milk. (some children enter room) Come on. Cause of all causes. Come forward. Come forward. (pause) (end)