750516 - Conversation B - Perth

Conversations by Date, 1975

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this lecture

750516R2-PERTH - May 16, 1975 - 38:09 Minutes

(with Alcohol and Drug Hospital People)

Amogha: . . . to solve the problem of drug and alcohol addiction and, of course, they're concerned with the causes of it and things like that.

Prabhupāda: So you can send all these alcohol and drug patients here, and they will be cured. These boys, American and European boys, they were all addicted to alcohol, drugs. Now they have given up. Practical.

Guest (1): In what way were they cure?

Prabhupāda: Simply I say that "If you want to be my student, then you must give up four things: illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling." This is my condition. So they give up, and they become my student.

Guest (2): Do they suffer withdrawal symptoms?

Amogha: He says, "Do they suffer withdrawal symptoms?" Sometimes when a patient is giving up alcohol or drugs, he goes through various symptoms which are painful.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That should be . . . but unless . . . (aside) Find out this, paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. Rasa-varjaṁ raso 'py asya paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59).

Jayadharma: "The embodied soul may be restricted from sense enjoyment, though the taste for sense objects remains. But, ceasing such engagements by experiencing a higher taste, he is fixed in consciousness."

Prabhupāda: Purport.

Jayadharma: Purport? "Unless one is transcendentally situated, it is not possible to cease from sense enjoyment. The process of restriction from sense enjoyment by rules and regulations is something like restricting a diseased person from certain types of edibles. The patient, however, neither likes such restriction nor loses his taste for edibles. Similarly, sense restriction by some spiritual process like aṣṭāṅga-yoga, in the matter of yama, niyama, āsana, prāṇāyāma, pratyāhāra, dhāraṇā, dhyāna, etc., is recommended for less intelligent persons who have no better knowledge. But one who has tasted the beauty of the Supreme Lord Kṛṣṇa in the course of his advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness no longer has a taste for dead material things. Therefore, restrictions are there for the less intelligent neophytes in the spiritual advancement of life, but such restrictions are only good if one actually has a taste for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. When one is actually Kṛṣṇa conscious, he automatically loses his taste for pale things."

Guest (1): What is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if I might ask?

Prabhupāda: Tell him.

Amogha: Well, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, or the Supreme Soul, and we are all individual souls. So naturally we have an awareness of our relationship with Kṛṣṇa, or God. When we say "God" or "Kṛṣṇa," we don't mean my God or your God, but we mean God, no matter which religion we're speaking of. So all of us naturally have a capacity to love Kṛṣṇa, or God, and we can awaken this relationship with Him. And when that is awakened, then all unwanted things disappear. Because everybody is actually frustrated, looking for permanent happiness in this temporary world. But when we awaken our Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then all of those frustrations disappear, and so all such problems like drug addiction become unnecessary.

Guest (2): How long does this process of withdrawal take?

Amogha: He says how long does it take to stop taking drugs by the process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Prabhupāda: If one lives with us at least for six months, he will give up.

Guest (2): Six months. And are there cases which relapse?

Prabhupāda: Other cases?

Amogha: He says, "Are there cases of . . . which relapse? Persons who begin to withdraw from drugs . . ."

Prabhupāda: Maybe one in five hundred.

Guest (2): One in five hundred.

Prabhupāda: There is. Everyone is prone to falldown. But that percentage is very low, say one in five hundred. We have got about ten thousand students all over the world. Out of them, they have fallen about ten or, say, fifteen, that's all.

Guest (2): You means you have ten thousand students who used to be addicted to something?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Addicted to everything—illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. And now they have given up everything.

Guest (2): And those who relapse, can they be treated again?

Prabhupāda: Again?

Amogha: Those who have relapsed, can they be treated again?

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes, that I say. Say, utmost, ten out of ten thousand.

Amogha: He says, "Can they be treated again, a second time?"

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Even American government is pleased with this movement, because they have spent so much millions of dollars for stopping LSD, and they are surprised that when the people come here, they give up.

Guest (3): Do you teach abstinence or moderation in the use of these things?

Prabhupāda: No, we say "Stop." We don't allow even smoking and drinking tea. That is also intoxication. We are so strict. But still, they give up. None of us take tea. We eat very simple things—vegetables, wheat, rice, little milk, that's all.

Guest (1): Did you say you eat meat?

Amogha: Wheat, wheat.

Guest (1): Wheat. Ah. Is there any reason why you don't . . . you prohibit people from eating meat?

Prabhupāda: Because it is sinful. It is sinful.

Guest (2): Why is it sinful?

Prabhupāda: According to Vedic conception, these four things are sinful activities, four pillars. Just like four pillars, the legs of this table, similarly, illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling are the four legs of sinful life.

Guest (1): What do you consider illicit sex?

Prabhupāda: Illicit sex means animal life. The marriage is in the human society, not in the dog society. So if one has illicit sex, that means he is no better than dog.

Guest (2): I don't quite understand that. Did you say that illicit means sex between people who are not married?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Sex is allowed only married couple. And that is also only for begetting child.

Guest (1): Is that married under what law? Under what religion? Under what religious law?

Prabhupāda: There is in Bhagavad-gītā, that dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi. (aside) Find out. You can come here and read.

Amogha: Which was that? Dharma . . .

Prabhupāda: Dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi.

Amogha: There's dharmāviruddho bhūteṣu . . .

Prabhupāda: No, dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi. Dharma-aviruddha. You know that verse?

Amogha: Is that balaṁ balavatāṁ cāham?

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes, yes, yes.

Amogha: Ah, I know that one.

balaṁ balavatāṁ cāhaṁ

kāma-rāga-vivarjitam

dharmāviruddho bhūteṣu

kāmo 'smi bharatarṣabha

(BG 7.11)

Translation: "I am the strength of the strong, devoid of passion and desire. I am sex life which is not contrary to religious principles, O Lord of the Bhāratas, Arjuna."

Guest (1): You can follow actually? What does that exactly mean? It's a direct translation, I think.

Amogha: He says, "What does that exactly mean?"

Prabhupāda: Explain to him.

Amogha: Well, as it explains here, (reading) "The strong man's strength should be applied to protect the weak, not for personal aggression. Similarly, sex life according to religious principles, dharma, should be for the propagation of children, not otherwise. The responsibility of parents is then to make their offspring Kṛṣṇa conscious."

Guest (2): The question was which religion, which religious principle?

Amogha: Well, he means our marriage under . . . we accept that marriage, sex life in marriage, is licit, not illicit. So he asked, "Under what religious principles or under which religion?"

Prabhupāda: Any religion. Christian religion does not allow illicit sex. No adultery.

Guest (2): Any religious principles?

Prabhupāda: This is religious principle. In the animal kingdom there is no marriage, but in the human society—may be Christian, may be Hindu, may be Muslim—there is marriage system. That is religious system.

Guest (2): Is polygamy illicit?

Prabhupāda: No.

Guest (2): Not licit. But it is . . .

Prabhupāda: Polygamy means if it is married. Just like in the Vedic society they used to marry many wives. Just like Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa had sixteen thousand wives. And He maintained them sixteen thousand palaces. And He expanded Himself into sixteen thousand Kṛṣṇas. So that is a different thing; He is God. But if you can maintain each and every wife, you can marry more than one wife. But if you are unable to maintain, that is illicit sex. All the kṣatriya kings, they used to marry more than one wife. Still in India, the kṣatriyas, kings, they have more than one wife. But they maintain very nicely.

Guest (2): But your method of curing drug addiction has very little practical use, surely.

Prabhupāda: Why not practical?

Guest (2): Not everyone who wants to stop taking drugs can spend six months in solitude or in a company like yours.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Amogha: He says he finds it not practical, because not everyone who is addicted to drugs can spend six months in a temple with us.

Prabhupāda: They are spending years. They are all European, Americans. They are not Indians. We have got here . . . you go to Melbourne. We have got big branch. In Sydney we have got. In Europe. They are doing that. It requires training, proper training. Then it will be done.

Guest (1): Well, if there is someone who wouldn't like to, perhaps, join this religion, but still wants to get treated . . .

Prabhupāda: This is not religion. This is not religion. This is a culture.

Guest (1): Oh. Yes, this culture . . .

Prabhupāda: Because we are admitting persons from various religions, various nations, various countries, and they accept this culture and they become purified.

Guest (1): Do they have to wear those clothes and wear this . . . and shave their head and chanting those things . . .

Prabhupāda: That is optional. That is also optional. That is not compulsory. But in India, because the brahmacārīs, sannyāsīs, they dress in a particular way, they do that. But that is not compulsory. But it has got a psychological effect, because whenever we go, people chant "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" So by this dress, we give chance, the other men, to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Guest (3): Well, could you correct me if I'm wrong. We have a society called Ramakrishna, a society in Burma. Those people who founded this society and are practicing Kṛṣṇa culture, they don't wear those things, or they don't chant in their temple, but they do all sorts of social welfare type of thing. Is there any difference between . . .

Prabhupāda: Ramakrishna Mission is not Vedic. It is a creation of Vivekananda's concoction. It is not Vedic. Just like they created a God, Ramakrishna. So that is not a Vedic sanction, that you create any fool, rascal, a god.

Guest (3): Isn't yours a product of or derivative of Vedic?

Prabhupāda: Yes, completely.

Guest (3): So how would you . . .

Prabhupāda: Just like whatever question you are asking, we are answering from Vedic literature. We are not answering ourself. That is the difference. The evidence is from the Vedic literature. I don't say that "In my opinion it is like this." We don't say.

Guest (3): I'm sorry, I missed that point. Could you please explain?

Amogha: He said it is Vedic because the answers he is giving are not his opinion or concoction, but he is giving from the Vedic knowledge or the Vedic scriptures instead of making up his own opinion. That is the meaning of Vedic; it is based on the Vedic teachings exactly.

Guest (3): But the Ramakrishna wasn't.

Prabhupāda: No.

Guest (3): They formed their own way.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (3): Do you consider that this kind of practice or the practicing this kind of culture is regimentated? A person has to come in and spend sometimes in the temple, and . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, the association, the influence of association. If you go to a drunkard association, you become a drunkard. And if you go to a saintly association, you become a saint. Saṅgāt sañjāyate kāmaḥ. (aside) Find out.

Amogha:

dhyāyato viṣayān puṁsaḥ

saṅgas teṣūpajāyate

saṅgāt sañjāyate kāmaḥ

kāmāt krodho 'bhijāyate

(BG 2.62)

Translation: "While contemplating the objects of the senses, a person develops attachment for them, and from such attachment lust develops, and from lust, anger arises."

Prabhupāda: If one becomes lusty, and if it is not fulfilled, he becomes angry. This is all psychological.

Guest (3): Yeah, well, when a person is attached to that group in the temple, isn't this . . . become a lust too? You see, being influenced by the group and also attached to the people . . .

Prabhupāda: We are teaching to be influenced by Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we have written fifty books like that, four hundred pages. You can show some of our books.

Amogha: This is Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Volume Two, Volume Four . . .

Prabhupāda: Sixty volumes.

Amogha: Nectar of Devotion.

Nurse: You seem to be placing a lot of emphasis on books. Are you following any particular path of yoga, sort of niyama-yoga . . .?

Amogha: She says we place a lot of emphasis on books, and she wonders if we are following a particular path such as dhyāna-yoga or jñāna-yoga or what?

Prabhupāda: Bhakti-yoga.

Nurse: Bhakti-yoga.

Prabhupāda: There are different types of yogas. And you will find,

yoginām api sarveṣāṁ

mad-gatenāntar-ātmanā

śraddhāvān bhajate yo māṁ

sa me yuktatamo mataḥ

(BG 6.47)

(aside) You have found out? Read it.

Amogha:

yoginām api sarveṣāṁ

mad-gatenāntar-ātmanā

śraddhāvān bhajate yo māṁ

sa me yuktatamo mataḥ

(BG 6.47)

Translation: "And of all yogīs, he who always abides in Me with great faith, worshiping Me in transcendental loving service, is most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all."

Prabhupāda: This is bhakti-yoga.

Guest (3): Well, doesn't it mean that someone has to worship that person to be able to attain the enlightenment, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone is worshiping a person. Everyone is . . . but we have to worship the Supreme Person. That is perfect. Everyone is worshiping a person. Suppose you are employed somewhere. You have to worship your boss. Otherwise no employment.

Guest (3): Oh, well, I consider it as a mutual . . .

Prabhupāda: It is mutual. It is mutual.

Guest (3): It's a mutual kind of support. But worshiping in a sense of religion or in a sense of a higher person, it's a different matter.

Prabhupāda: Worshiping means appreciating high qualities. Worshiping is not blind. If I know that you have some high qualities, I worship you.

Guest (3): Do you worship to a person or what? To his doctrines or . . .?

Prabhupāda: Worship means person. Worship does not mean imperson. Unless there is a person-to-person relationship, there is no question of worship.

Guest (3): Is . . . this picture of Śrī Viṣṇu, it's the person who you worship or . . .?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (3): He is the creator.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (3): And, in the sense that He is called Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is His another form. Kṛṣṇa is Viṣṇu's another form.

Guest (3): I see, yes.

Prabhupāda: (aside) Find out, aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2).

Guest (4): What is your correlation between belief and science? You mentioned that science is involved.

Prabhupāda: Science?

Guest (4): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. What do you mean by science?

Guest (4): Well, the human sciences or otherwise is a study on its own. What is the relationship or the link-up between that and your faith?

Prabhupāda: The relationship—God is the creator of everything. So everything has got relationship with God. So what do you think of this science? The Vedānta-sūtra, it says, athāto brahma jijñāsā: "Now this human life is meant for understanding the science of God." So the question is, "What is God?" The answer is, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1): "God, or the Supreme Absolute Truth, is that from whom everything has come." So this is our science, the origin of everything.

Guest (4): Yes, the origin of everything. But why is it necessary for man to have to discover? I mean, man discovered the cure for poliomyelitis.

Prabhupāda: Why man discovers?

Guest (4): Yes, well, I'm using it as an example.

Prabhupāda: But he . . . just like . . . it is not the question of discover, but because you are existing, you must have come from a father. That is science. It is not the question of finding out a father. Without father, there is no existence of you. It is not the question of finding out a father. Father must be there. This is science. Without father, is there any existence of any man or any animal? What your science says? Is it possible that anyone is existing without a father? What you think?

Nurse: I was just wondering, um, do you believe in . . .

Prabhupāda: Who is there independently existing without having a father? What is that science?

Guest (2): It's not necessarily in the science itself . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, this is a sign, that if there is a man, he must have a father. This is science. So what is your opinion about this science?

Guest (1): I see it as a straight, deductive logic. If there is a . . .

Prabhupāda: . . . son, there must be father. That is science.

Guest (1): Don't you think this kind of reasoning is a deductive logic rather than inductive?

Prabhupāda: No, what is the reasoning yours, that you deny father?

Guest (4): The father must have a father too, mustn't he?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Similarly, there must be supreme father.

Guest (4): Well, who is the supreme father's father?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is enquiry, that you have got your father, your father has got father, he has got his father, he has got . . . who is the supreme father? He is God.

Guest (1): Who is God's father?

Prabhupāda: Nobody is His father. That is God. God is everyone's father, but He is without father. That is God. So long one has got father, he is not God. When you come to the point that here is the person who has no father—He is independent—that is God. The definition of God is given in the Vedic literature:

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ

sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

(Bs. 5.1)

Anādi means He has no beginning. But He is the beginning of everything. This is simple definition of God. Anādi . . . Anādi means He has no beginning, but He is the beginning of everything. Anādir ādir govindaḥ sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam (Bs. 5.1), the cause of all causes.

Guest (1): It becomes a belief rather than a logic now, then, for when we think about the God. You were saying everybody has father, so why God, in exception, He hasn't got a father?

Prabhupāda: Therefore He is God, that He can exist without father. But you cannot exist without father. That is the difference between you and God.

Guest (4): Is God in the form of male or female or anything?

Prabhupāda: He is male. Otherwise how He can beget? Female cannot beget . . .

Guest (4): Why is that?

Prabhupāda: . . . without man's contact. The prakṛti, the nature, is female, and God is male. (aside) Find out this verse,

sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya

sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ

tāsāṁ mahad yonir brahma

ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā

(BG 14.4)

Paramahaṁsa:

sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya

mūrtayaḥ sambhavanti yāḥ

tāsāṁ brahma mahad yonir

ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā

(BG 14.4)

"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed-giving father."

Prabhupāda: So material nature is the mother, and God is the father.

Guest (2): But to whom did God give the seed?

Prabhupāda: The prakṛti, material nature. That is said here. Just like for begetting a child, both the father and mother required. So the material nature is the mother, and God is the father. So, so many forms of life are coming from the womb of material nature. This body is made of matter. This body is earth, water, air, fire, like that. This is made of. But I am the soul. That is from God. I am part and parcel of God, as soul. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ. (aside) Find out.

Amogha:

mamaivāṁśo jīva-loke

jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ

manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi

prakṛti-sthāni karṣati

(BG 15.7)

Translation: "The living entities in this conditional world are My eternal, fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life, they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (2): Is there an animal soul, Swami?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because it is already said, sarva-yoniṣu, "all forms of life." Even ant, tree, birds, plant, trees, everything—there are 8,400,000 forms of life—all of them, the soul is there. And they have got different . . . just like you are differently dressed, I am differently dressed, but you are also soul, I am also soul.

Nurse: You're really talking about the ātman, aren't you? When you say the soul . . .

Prabhupāda: Ātmā, yes, soul is ātmā. And the soul of the soul is God, Paramātmā.

Guest (2): Is it possible for us to communicate with plants?

Prabhupāda: With . . .?

Amogha: With plants. Is it possible for us to communicate with plants?

Prabhupāda: Yes, they have done. Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose in Calcutta, Bose Institute, he has proved—he has got machine—that they feel pains and pleasure, which is recorded in the machine. If you pluck one leaf, they feel. Immediately it is recorded in the machine.

Guest (1): Could I come back to that eating of meat? Related to this alive, soul, matter. Aren't you in a sense eating another soul, too, if you're eating vegetables? Not only if you're eating meat?

Prabhupāda: No, the thing is, the material world . . . it is said, jīvo jīvasya jīvanam: "One living entity has to eat another living entity to keep himself alive." That is the natural law. But you should have discrimination. Because you have to eat some other living entity, it does not mean that you will eat your own son. You cannot support that "Because I have to live by eating another living entity, so what is the wrong if I eat my son?" Therefore the Vedic injunction is, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā (ISO 1). You are given some jurisdiction, you can eat. And actually you do so. Because I have to eat something, we do not eat anything and everything. We have got discrimination. So according to Bhagavad-gītā . . . (aside) Find out this verse, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati.

Amogha:

patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ

yo me bhaktyā prayacchati

tad ahaṁ bhakty-upahṛtam

aśnāmi prayatātmanaḥ

(BG 9.26)

Translation: "If one offers Me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it."

Prabhupāda: So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we accept what is eaten by Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa wants these things: fruits, flower, vegetable, grains, milk. So we offer them and eat.

Guest (1): Why not animals?

Prabhupāda: He does not say, "Give Me animals." Because we are Kṛṣṇa conscious, we cannot take anything which is not accepted by Kṛṣṇa.

Guest (4): Are blood transfusions permissible, Swami? Are blood transfusions permissible?

Amogha: He says, "Are blood transfusions permissible?" When someone is in an accident or cut and he loses blood, they take another man's blood and put it in. He says . . .

Prabhupāda: Well, that is not bad. Because if one life is saved by transfusion admission . . . he is not dying. He is living. He is contributing his blood. So if he is contributing, you are saving some life, there is no harm.

Guest (2): But blood is animal tissue. (break)

Amogha: (offers obeisances; guests have left)

Prabhupāda: How they liked?

Amogha: Um, the younger ones liked better. The nurse was asking where she could . . . if she could refer people to visit us here, and I told her we don't know if this will be the permanent address, but as soon as we have a permanent address here I'll notify her. But she was wondering if she could send people to . . . if the people would be welcome to come and visit and see the place here. And the Buddhist boy, he bought an incense from us. He said, "Where is that nice smell coming from?" I said, "Incense." He said, "I want some." The other gentlemen I don't . . . they're more set in their ways kind of men. I couldn't tell whether they were impressed or not. They don't express very well.

Prabhupāda: But all their questions were answered.

Amogha: Yes. When you told him where is the man who has . . . where is the person who did not come from a father, he began to . . . before that, he was going to challenge whether this was science or belief, but then he had to be quiet. He just mumbled.

Prabhupāda: And they inquired, "Then God has father?" No, God without father. That is God. That is the distinction between ordinary living entity and God.

Amogha: So I will try to arrange someone for tonight or tomorrow morning; that geographer, I hope. And the people from the radio conversation. They're very well known, actually. Because I asked the geographer man, I said, "Do you know this man, Tim Downs?" And he said, "Oh, yes. I have heard him many times."

Prabhupāda: Tim Down?

Amogha: Tim Downs. He is the man who may come from radio to make a conversation. Then they will play it on radio. But I have to find out if he's coming. And in the case that there may be three people who want to come, so would it be possible for tonight to having two, maybe five o'clock and seven o'clock or something like that?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Amogha: Yes. I will keep in touch with those people and let them know. I will send them some literature too. Shall I go and telephone those people?

Prabhupāda: Um-hmm. (end)