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750513 - Morning Walk - Perth

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

750513MW-PERTH - May 13, 1975 - 48:32 Minutes

Prabhupāda: . . . change your views victimized by these rascals. The rascals are very strong. (japa) In the Sixteenth Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā it is said, pravṛttiṁ ca nivṛttiṁ janā na vidur āsurāḥ (BG 16.7). Asura. Asura, demons, demonic civilization, demonic people, they do not know what is pravṛtti and what is nivṛtti. Pravṛtti means material civilization, and nivṛtti means spiritual civilization. The modern man does not know. They are neither educated about this pravṛtti and nivṛtti. And we are speaking on nivṛtti, and all of them are in the pravṛtti. So they cannot understand. It is foreign to them. They have no idea what is spiritual life, spiritual civilization. Five thousand years ago Kṛṣṇa spoke of all these things very clearly. Later on, the things, from the beginning of Kali-yuga, the things are deteriorating, and therefore different types of religion has sprung up—the Buddhism, Christianism, Muhammadanism. They are not perfect understanding of religious principle. And gradually the number of so-called religious section are increasing. Our Mr. Nanda is presenting another religion, mānava-dharma. Everyone is manufacturing. And Vivekananda is supporting, "Yes, every type of religious system is as good." This is nonsense. Actually they do not know what is religion. (pause)

Gaṇeśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the Śrī Īśopaniṣad it is said that one must learn the process of nescience alongside with the process of self-realization.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Gaṇeśa: In the Īśopaniṣad, pravṛtti with nivṛtti. How is that?

Prabhupāda: What is that pravṛtti and nivṛtti?

Paramahaṁsa: He says that in the Īśopaniṣad it says that you should learn the process of self-realization side by side with the process of nescience.

Prabhupāda: Nescience?

Paramahaṁsa: Nescience.

Prabhupāda: Nescience, yes. That is pravṛtti and nivṛtti. Pravṛtti means sense enjoyment, and nivṛtti means self-negation. So when we say that "You shall not have illicit sex," and their inclination is illicit sex, so therefore it is revolutionary. They are materialistic persons. They want sex enjoyment to the best capacity—homosex, this sex, that sex, naked dance—all sexually inclined, pravṛtti. And we say, "Stop this," nivṛtti. They do not like it, because āsura. Pravṛtti jagat. They do not know this is essential. They do not know it. This is essential. Tapasā brahmacaryena (SB 6.1.13). Tapasya means brahmacarya. The so-called svāmīs, they are coming for this so-called yoga practice and . . . but they are themself victim of sex. This is going on. Actually, it is a bluff—they have become svāmī and teaching some yoga system—because they do not know that one has to stop this first of all. Brahmacaryena.

So this bluffing is going on all over the world, and we are speaking just against them. Murkhayopadeśo hi prakopāya na śāntaye (Cāṇakya Paṇḍita). If you give instruction to the rascals, he will simply be angry. He will not take advantage of it. This is our position. All the so-called professors, philosophers, they are all in the pravṛtti-mārga. Therefore they are bringing somebody, "Our interpretation is like this." Pravṛtti-mārga. Because if they can find out some support from the śāstra, then they think, "We are secure." This is going on. Pravṛttim ca nivṛttim ca na vidur āsurāḥ (BG 16.7). The whole world is full of asuras, descendant of Hiraṇyakaśipu, and it is very difficult. But if we give them chance to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, gradually they will understand. (pause) Another difficulty: these so-called svāmīs, priests, popes, they are also in the pravṛtti-mārga. All these priests, and they have illicit sex. Pravṛtti-mārga. So they are passing, "Yes, you can have homosex with man." They are getting man-to-man marriage. You know? They are performing the marriage ceremony between man to man in the open church. What class of men they are? And they are priest. Just see. Such degraded persons, drinking . . . they have got hospital for curing their drinking disease. Five thousand patients in a hospital in America, all drunkards, and they are priest. Just see. Simply by dressing long, what is called, overcoat?

Śrutakīrti: Cloak.

Paramahaṁsa: Habit?

Prabhupāda: Cloak and cross, they have become. In India also, simply having a thread, a brāhmaṇa. Two-paisa thread. That's all.

Amogha: Even the coolies at the train station.

Prabhupāda: And by simply one daṇḍa, one is sannyāsī. This is all over the world. Mussulman, having a long beard, he is Mussulman. Mussuleḥ iman. Musseleḥ means "complete," and iman means "honest." That is the meaning of Mussulman—completely honest, completely devoted. Mussuleḥ iman. (long pause) We are not saying just the "No sex." We don't say that. We simply say, "No illicit sex," and they do not like it. We don't say "No sex," but simply by saying, "No illicit sex," they don't like. Why? There is a Bengali song, chake yadi lage bhalo kano deyagoy "If I want to see something beautiful, why shall I not see?" That is pravṛtti. "I want to do it. I like to do it. Why should you say, 'No'?" This is the position. "I like to do it. I must do it." This is called pravṛtti. (long pause) "I like to interpret Bhagavad-gītā in this way. Why should you say no?" This is going on . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) The school students, college students, "I like to copy. Why shall I . . . (indistinct) . . .?" This is education. Here also they copy?

Amogha: You mean cheating?

Prabhupāda: No, no, copying in examination.

Amogha: Oh, yes. Well, what they do is someone sneaks the exam answers out before, and they sell the answers to the questions before the test.

Prabhupāda: Just see. Here it is more advanced.

Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Very scientific.

Amogha: Sometimes they get caught, it's in the newspapers.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Amogha: Sometimes they are caught by the authorities, and it comes in the newspapers, and there's a big scandal because all the students are buying the answers to the questions.

Prabhupāda: Just see. The main point is how to get some money. So the teachers are also dishonest.

Paramahaṁsa: There's a saying that everyone has his price.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Paramahaṁsa: There's a saying that "Everyone and everything has its price."

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Paramahaṁsa: It means that if you pay enough money, you can get anything, or you can get somebody to do anything.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The Justice, they are taking bribe, giving judgment.

Paramahaṁsa: Yes, yes. Policemen. Also the politicians in America, sometimes they win their elections by giving bribes.

Prabhupāda: To the voters.

Paramahaṁsa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly.

Amogha: Everyone is cheating, but when they find out that the leaders are cheating, everyone becomes upset.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayadharma: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you have said that it's impossible to become rich unless one is a cheater. And yet we have our business, Spiritual Sky business. So how is it possible to carry on business and not become a cheater?

Prabhupāda: You can cheat. (laughter) You can cheat. For Kṛṣṇa's sake we can cheat also. But don't be caught. (chuckles) Then it will be scandalous.

Gaṇeśa: Thank you. Kṛṣṇa is the biggest cheat.

Prabhupāda: Yes, He is big in everything, but you should not imitate, because you are not as big as Kṛṣṇa. Tejīyasāṁ na doṣāya (SB 10.33.29). He is very powerful. Before His power, everything becomes vanished. He remains powerful. But you cannot do that. "Kṛṣṇa is biggest cheater; therefore I shall become a cheater." That is not good policy. Then you will be finished. Just like the example is given that Lord Śiva drunk the ocean of poison, and if you drink a drop, you will die. You cannot imitate the most powerful. That is not possible.

Jayadharma: You told us once in Sydney a few years ago, Śrīla Prabhupāda . . .

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jayadharma: You told Madhudviṣa Swami once in Sydney a few years ago that actually you're the biggest cheater, because you're stealing away all our māyā.

Prabhupāda: What is that? I am . . .

Amogha: He says that once you told Madhudviṣa Swami that you are the best cheater because you are taking away all our māyā and making us devotees.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. That kind of cheating is very good. (long pause) Christ also spoke about nivṛtti-mārga: "Thou shall not kill," because they were practiced to kill, and still they are practiced to killing. The first thing is, "Thou shall not kill." The same thing, "Thou shall not covet."

Amogha: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Is the Bible . . . we accept that as scripture, but is it all correct, or has it been mistranslated or . . .?

Prabhupāda: It is being misinterpreted still now. That means it was violated from the very beginning. And they are violating. "Thou shall not kill"—he is killing. That's all. That is the position.

Paramahaṁsa: They also have that "Thou shalt not commit adultery."

Prabhupāda: Yes. And they are very expert in doing that. That is advanced civilization. Now they are marrying man to man and accepting homosex, so what is the value now of this priestly class?

Paramahaṁsa: They have another thing now where they . . . a man goes to the doctor and has an operation to change his sex from man to woman.

Prabhupāda: Sex. Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: Or from woman to man. That's called transvestites.

Prabhupāda: That is going on?

Paramahaṁsa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Successful?

Paramahaṁsa: Yes, sometimes. Sometimes they have some difficulties, but they have had many successful operations. (break) . . . change into a woman. She can't have . . . it can't have a baby. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: They are doing?

Paramahaṁsa: Well, they're changing, but they can't become pregnant. That's the only thing. They take these special hormones, and then they can grow breasts and everything, just like a woman. But they can't become pregnant.

Amogha: In the newspaper there was an article about two weeks ago about a Christian church in America where they have a naked dancer come.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Amogha: They had a lady who dances, taking off her clothes, so the people will come to church. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Amogha: Yes. I was very surprised, but they showed a picture. And they said this is a Methodist . . . I think it was Methodist. Some church. I am not sure which. But anyhow, it was a church . . .

Paramahaṁsa: That's the only way to get people to come to church.

Gaṇeśa: That's why they are called Methodists, because they use different methods.

Paramahaṁsa: We saw one church, the church that they got in Montreal for the temple, they, right before the devotees took over the church, they were having rock musicians playing music every night. And in this way they were trying to get people to come to church. And they would sing songs sometimes about religion, using all electrical instruments and everything.

Gaṇeśa: This man who is coming to see you today, he also has done this in Perth.

Amogha: Dean . . . Dean Hazelwood.

Prabhupāda: What he has done?

Amogha: He . . . sometimes he has electric guitar music for the church prayer ceremony. It's called a rock mass.

Gaṇeśa: Rock mass, to attract the young people.

Prabhupāda: Will the young men came?

Gaṇeśa: Oh, yes. But halfway through, they all go out on the grass and they smoke. (laughter) They simply come to hear the music, and that is all.

Prabhupāda: That's all.

Paramahaṁsa: Another thing they do in the churches is they have those bingo games. You were saying in one lecture we shouldn't play bingo. That's very popular. Practically all of the Catholic . . . is that Catholic churches?

Gaṇeśa: All Christian. Jesus himself, he kicked the moneylenders out of the temple.

Paramahaṁsa: I was talking to one Buddhist monk, and I asked him, "What is your actual practice? What is your daily schedule?" And he said, "Well, we get up around sunrise and go out with our begging bowls and fill it up, and then come back at about eleven o'clock to the temple. And then we sit down and eat everything in the begging bowl. And then we take rest." (laughing) I said, "What about the rest of the day?" And he said, "Well, that's all free, open time." (pause)

Amogha: Śrīla Prabhupāda? We are distributing Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam you explain that it's best to start from the beginning and go gradually. So . . .

Prabhupāda: No, anywhere you can see.

Amogha: So we can distribute any canto.

Paramahaṁsa: Usually what happens is a person who gets, say, the Second or Third or Fourth canto, if he reads that, then he will want to start from the beginning, and he'll buy the First Canto.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, even if he does not read the First Canto, wherever he will read, he will get benefit. Sugar candy, you taste from anywhere, it is sweet.

Amogha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I remember once I heard a tape where you told us that we should not try to read the books of previous ācāryas.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Amogha: That we should not try to read Bhaktivinoda's books or earlier books of other . . . our ācāryas. So I was just wondering . . .

Prabhupāda: I never said that.

Amogha: You didn't say that? Oh.

Prabhupāda: How is that?

Amogha: I thought you said that we should not read the previous ācāryas books.

Prabhupāda: No, you should read.

Amogha: We should.

Prabhupāda: It is misunderstanding.

Paramahaṁsa: I think maybe he was thinking that there was some things about some of the Gauḍīya Maṭha books.

Prabhupāda: Maybe.

Paramahaṁsa: And sometimes you said that better not to . . . better to read your books.

Amogha: When the devotees went to India this year, they said that Acyutānanda Swami very . . . chastised them that "You should never . . . if I catch any of you buying Bhaktisiddhānta's books from Gauḍīya Maṭha, then I will take it away," something like this.

Paramahaṁsa: Yeah, that was . . . the reason was because of . . . he didn't want the devotees going to Gauḍīya Maṭha. But there's nothing wrong with the idea of studying the previous ācāryas books.

Prabhupāda: No. Who said that is wrong? We are following previous ācāryas. I never said that.

Paramahaṁsa: All of your commentaries are coming from the previous ācāryas.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayadharma: But that wouldn't mean that we should keep all the previous ācāryas books and only read them.

Prabhupāda: That is already there. You first of all assimilate what you have got. You simply pile up books and do not read—what is the use?

Jayadharma: First of all we must read all your books.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: Practically speaking, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you are giving us the essence of all the previous ācāryas books in your books.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. (break) "No, no, Jesus Christ is son of God. He was . . . if you don't worship him, you will go to hell." So they enquired, "What is that hell?" He began to . . . "It is very dark and moist and so on, so on . . ." They did not reply, because they are working in the mine. So this is the position. This is . . . people are kept in so much darkness, they do not know what is hell, what is heaven, what is God, what is misery. They do not mind. They are accustomed to all these things. There is another story like that, a Bengali story. One man said, "Oh, you are drinking, you will go to hell." So he explained what is hell: "It is a miserable life." "Oh, my father also drinks." "Oh, he will also go to hell." "And my mother also drinks." "Oh, she will also go." In this way whole, the family. "Then where it is hell? It is heaven. Because the father is there, mother is there, brother is there. Everyone, we are going . . . so where is hell?" This is the . . . "Even in hell, if we are all there, then where it is hell? It is heaven."

Paramahaṁsa: People don't mind so much suffering if they can suffer with their friends.

Prabhupāda: No, no, they are suffering. They are accustomed to so many sufferings. They, they do not mind what is suffering.

Paramahaṁsa: Especially if they can bring their friends along. Then they're very happy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore it is heaven. Although there is suffering, it is heaven.

Paramahaṁsa: They think that suffering together with your friends is enjoying.

Prabhupāda: No, they . . . just like the ass. He does not know what is happening. Therefore he is agreeing, "All right, load with me any number of heavy weight. I shall carry." He does not know it is suffering. He has accepted the service of the man, bearing so much load, and he is giving little grass. The grass he can take from here, but he thinks that "He is maintaining me." Just see. This is ignorance. Therefore mūḍhā, this word is used. Suffering, suffering, suffering. Material nature is awarding sufferings after suffering. Still, they are not wake up. Who cares for suffering?

(break) . . . stand this philosophy that acceptance of this material body is suffering. They will say, "Oh, I have got this American body. I have got so much opulence. What is suffering?" He'll not believe it. But real philosophy is that acceptance of this material body, whatever it may be, the demigod or dog, it is suffering. Who will understand? Even the demigods, they do not understand.

Jayadharma: They say that "It's natural to die. So everybody has to die. So we just have to accept it."

Prabhupāda: No, the philosophy is very simple. You don't want suffering, but where is a person who has got this material body is not suffering?

Paramahaṁsa: But then they will say, "Where is a person who has not got this material body?"

Prabhupāda: There, that is unknown to them. There is another world where there is no material body. Everyone is in spiritual body. That they do not know. That is ignorance.

Paramahaṁsa: They don't feel so bad because they think everyone is suffering, so . . .

Prabhupāda: So nobody feels bad, even the cats and dogs. That does not mean there is no suffering. Cats and dogs . . . just like in this car, the gentleman, his wife and the dog, the dog is feeling more happy.

Paramahaṁsa: He has less anxieties.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The dog is feeling, "Who can be happier than me?"

Paramahaṁsa: Actually, in the West the dogs have a very good program. If they have a good master, then . . .

Prabhupāda: But after all, he is dog. (laughs) That he does not know. He may be, according to his estimation, very well situated. But after all, what he is? He is a dog. That he does not know. That he forgets. (break) Very calm and quiet. (break) . . . glass. Is it not?

Śrutakīrti: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Now this glass-making is also becoming obsolete. The plastic is replacing.

Paramahaṁsa: Oh, yeah.

Prabhupāda: The glass industry is finished. (end)