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750508 - Morning Walk - Perth

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

750508MW-PERTH - May 08, 1975 - 62:20 Minutes

Prabhupāda: A child cannot think. Motorcar is running. Child will think the motorcar is running automatically. But a sane man will understand that there is a driver. So persons who deny the existence of God are like that. They see the machine, nature. Nature is the machine. But behind the machine there is the operator. These rascal cannot understand. Nābhijānāti, mām ebhyaḥ paramam, tribhir guṇamayair bhāvair (BG 7.13). Machine is working, nature is working, that much they can see. And behind the machine there is operator . . . (indistinct) . . . . what is your answer? What the atheist will say? Has the atheist any experience that any machine works without operator? Has he got any experience?

Paramahaṁsa: No.

Prabhupāda: Then why does he say?

Paramahaṁsa: But this whole universe—we cannot compare this whole universe with any machine created by man.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Why you bring man? This machine is being operated . . . created and being operated by God.

Paramahaṁsa: Well, we don't have any experience of such a machine.

Prabhupāda: Huh? What do you mean by machine? First of all define what is your idea of machine. Just like the other day we saw, we saw the Thomson Press, they're being printed, being collected, and so many things are being done. It is like this. By machine the seasonal changes are going on, the sun is rising, the moon is rising, the water in the ocean, the waves are there. Everything, machine working. It is machine. Everything being systematically done. Such a big ocean, vast water, it is just on the brink, no more. It is so organized. The sun is rising exactly in time, astronomically. The astronomical watch is one ten-thousandth part of a second. It is so accurate. You'll find everything is going on like that. (break) "Today is ekādaśī, eleventh day of the moon; the moon shall be like this." There one can see the moon and he can calculate, "Today is ekādaśī." This is not machine? It is exactly, machine.

Paramahaṁsa: But the thing is that this machine is so wonderful that it goes on without an operator.

Prabhupāda: That is your dullness! You are rascal, you cannot understand how the machine is working, how big it is. That is your dullness. But it is a machine, very big machine. You cannot understand—that is not, that this is not a machine. This is not very good argument, that "I cannot understand, therefore it is not a machine." But you see the idea machine is there already, everything is going on—machine.

Śrutakīrti: It is such a good machine it doesn't require an operator.

Paramahaṁsa: That is the wonder of it.

Prabhupāda: No. That is wrong. You cannot find out in your experience anywhere, any machine which is not being operated by a person. You cannot find it. Then why do you bring this idea that without operator it is going on? Where you get this idea? This is a false idea. Because you have no such experience. Where is the machine that "Here is a machine going on without any operator"? Find out a machine.

Paramahaṁsa: We're trying. We're trying. (laughter) There are some automatic machines.

Prabhupāda: Automatic is at the hand of the operator, button.

Śrutakīrti: Someone must turn it on and off.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no such automatic machine. It is impossible to prove.

Gaṇeśa: But we can see the operator of these small machines, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We cannot see the operator of this big machine.

Prabhupāda: Have you seen the operator in the powerhouse? Electric?

Gaṇeśa: No.

Prabhupāda: Then? Do you think the powerhouse is going on?

Paramahaṁsa: Well, we could see him. Because we could drive there right now and see him.

Prabhupāda: Yes, you can see. Yes. You can go to Kṛṣṇa and see Him. That requires qualification.

Paramahaṁsa: That's not as easy.

Prabhupāda: No, it is very easy. It is simply, as we are teaching our students, just become a devotee, offer namaskār, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto (BG 18.65), always think of Him, and you will go to Him. It is not at all difficult. Bahavo jñāna-tapasā mad-bhāvam āgatāḥ (BG 4.10): "Bahavo, many, did come to Me." How? Jñāna-tapasā, "By knowledge and tapasya, being purified, they come to Me," Kṛṣṇa says. Why you are disappointed? You can go. Kṛṣṇa is open. Te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim (BG 9.32). Striya śūdra tathā vaiśya: even the women, less intelligent, the śūdra, vaiśya, they can come and see Him. Where is the difficulty? Even if you are born very lowest, you can go. Kṛṣṇa is open to everyone. Simply you become qualified, that's all. And what is the qualification? Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65): "Just always think of Me, become My devotee, offer your respect to Me, and man-manā, worship Me." That's all. Four things. That we are opening this temple for this purpose, that you always think of Him, you worship Him, you offer obeisances to Him and become His devotee. And then? Mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayaḥ (BG 18.68), without a doubt you will come to Him. What is the difficulty? There is no difficulty.

Paramahaṁsa: If the operator of the powerhouse, he is operating and running the powerhouse, but it's not really necessary that we go see him. We can simply enjoy the facilities offered by the powerhouse.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but if you are intelligent enough—if you are a rascal fool, you cannot see—but if you are intelligent, then you'll be eager to: "Who is operating? Let me see." That is the difference of intelligence. Dull . . . just like we read one story. One little boy, he was beating on a drum. So he became inquisitive, "Wherefrom the sound is coming? Somebody must be within it." So he took a knife and cut it. This is intelligence: "Wherefrom the sound is coming?" He was beating—dum, dum, dum—he became inquisitive. That is intelligence. A dull student—coming, that's all. And intelligent, he tries to . . . that is intelligence. Inquisitiveness. Intelligent boy will always enquire, "What is this, father? What is this, father? Wherefrom the sound is coming?" That is intelligence. So if one is very dull—just like cats and dogs, they cannot enquire, "What is this machine? What is this behind?" It is in the human form of life these enquiries should come. Otherwise he remains a cat and dog.

Jayadharma: They say that they don't accept this body as a machine because they've never experienced a machine that can think, feel and will for itself.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Paramahaṁsa: Well, they say that this body is more complicated than any other machine because it can think, feel and will, whereas other machines, they don't do that.

Prabhupāda: But the thinking, feeling, the brain is there. If the . . . that is the particular machine, because the operator is within. That you cannot see. The thinking, feeling is coming from the operator. The soul is there, dehino 'smin yatha dehe (BG 2.13). That these rascals cannot understand, that the thinking, feeling, that is of the operator, not of the machine. Is it clear or not? The operator is within. So the thinking, feeling, as you were asking, that is not of the machine but of the operator, the soul.

Gaṇeśa: Just like the child, Śrīla Prabhupāda, who was trying to find the sound within the drum, the material scientists, they are trying to find out the cause and effect of the material world. Is that not intelligence?

Prabhupāda: Yes, but they have not reached the ultimate goal.

Paramahaṁsa: But they are trying.

Prabhupāda: They are trying. That is admitted. But they are concluding that there is no operator. That is their foolishness, because they have failed to find out. They have to go further, further, and see, "Yes, there is operator." That is the final part of the intelligence. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān mām (BG 7.19). So after many, many births of sincere inquiry, when he is actually intelligent, he will see, "Oh, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). Here is Vāsudeva. He is everything." That is stated. He'll enquire, go on enquiring, life after life. And then he'll come to understand vāsudevaḥ-sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ. You did not read this verse?

Gaṇeśa: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: They will come. After much trouble, much enquiry, they will come to the same conclusion, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). But they'll waste time. That's all. When we say, "Here is operator," they will not take. But they'll waste time, and life after life laboring, one day they will come.

Jayadharma: Does that mean that everybody is ultimately on the way back home, back to Godhead?

Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone is enquiring, but according to his intelligence, perfection, he is making progress. Everyone. Everyone, because he is meant for that purpose. He has forgotten Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa is the reservoir of all pleasure. He is finding . . . trying to find out pleasure other than Kṛṣṇa; therefore he is being baffled. Unless he comes to Kṛṣṇa there is no pleasure. That he does not know.

Paramahaṁsa: We have a saying in the West that "Curiosity killed the cat."

Prabhupāda: Another example just like I gave: crying children, child, crying, crying, crying, crying. As soon as he is on the lap of his mother, immediately stops, crying. Why? He can understand, "Now I have got the real thing." Other woman taking, he still continues crying. You have seen it? This is practical. But when the child comes to the lap of his own mother, he is immediately stops. Mother also takes care, "My dear child, come." She sucks the breast and is satisfied.

Gaṇeśa: So one day the material scientist, after many, many births will come to understand Vāsudeva, or Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gaṇeśa: They will become devotees.

Prabhupāda: But that is their foolishness. We, people, Kṛṣṇa conscious people say, "Here is your ultimate goal of this science. Take it." That they will not take. That is foolishness. They will come to the same point. But when you offer him, he will not take. That is less intelligent. (break)

Paramahaṁsa: You were saying that inquisitiveness is the . . .

Prabhupāda: That is human life. That inquisitiveness cannot be found in cats and dogs. That is the difference between cats and dogs and human being. Human being, unless he becomes inquisitive for what is the ultimate source, he is not human being. These all people, 99.9% people, they are not inquisitive. They are searching after some happiness, but they are not inquisitive what is the source of happiness. They are being baffled in the material world. They have, for happiness they have discovered this horseless carriage and so many things, but there is so much unhappiness also when the motorcar is crashed between two, then life is lost. They are not inquisitive that "We have invented this machine for happiness. Why this disaster?" That intelligence is not there. That is the difficulty. They are simply going on searching after, but when we say, "No, not in this way. Come this way, you'll get happiness," they'll not . . . that is the difficulty.

Paramahaṁsa: But if a person becomes too much inquisitive, just like with the boy and the mṛdaṅga, due to his inquisitiveness he ruined the mṛdaṅga, and then he doesn't have any drum.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But the drum can be purchased again. But he should be given credit because he is inquisitive. You can purchase another drum, it doesn't matter, but he gets the credit because he is inquisitive.

Gaṇeśa: What about these scientists, Śrīla Prabhupāda? They are very inquisitive, and they are trying to find out the cause of the material world.

Prabhupāda: That credit we give them, just like this child. But the childishness is this, that when they are given correct information, they do not take it. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . if we say to the scientists, material, that "You are searching after this. Here it is, Kṛṣṇa: ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo (BG 10.8), 'I am the original source of everything,'" they will not accept it. That is their foolishness.

Gaṇeśa: They are very inquisitive, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: That credit is already given. But you are inquisitive for a certain thing. If the thing is offered, if you do not accept, then you become foolish. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante, vāsudeva (BG 7.19). He'll come to that point, that "Kṛṣṇa is everything," but when you inform him before that "Here is the thing," he will not take. That is their foolishness.

Paramahaṁsa: You were saying everyone is inquisitive for happiness, but isn't that, shouldn't that be purified? Shouldn't we give up all desire for happiness?

Prabhupāda: No, no. Happiness is life. How you can give up?

Paramahaṁsa: But if we desire for happiness, then we are being selfish.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but you do not know where is your self in a sense. That is your foolishness. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31), they do not know. Everyone is selfish, everyone is self-interested. But he does not know how to fulfill it. That is foolishness.

Paramahaṁsa: But isn't it better to give up all ego altogether? Shouldn't we give up all of our . . .

Prabhupāda: Why? Why? That is Māyāvādī philosophy.

Paramahaṁsa: Then we become completely cleared of all . . .

Prabhupāda: We make our egoism purified: "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa." That is wanted. Not that to make my egoism zero. That is Māyāvāda. They are disappointed; they think, "Finish this egoism." It cannot be finished. Because you are individual soul, it cannot be finished. Simply it has to be purified. I am thinking "Indian"; you are thinking "American." You are neither American neither Indian. We are all part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. That we have to come to that point. Not to falsely think that "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am cat," "I am dog." That has to be finished. But you'll come to the real egoism, that "I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa." That "I am" will go on. Not that . . . they are thinking in a way to finish the "I am," or "I am the same." Wrong thing.

Gaṇeśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the material scientists are so inquisitive, yet they are leading lives like cats and dogs. How can they come to . . .?

Prabhupāda: Yes, because they are wrongly directed. You are inquiring me, "Sir, I want to such and such place." If that place is this way, if I say, "You go this way," you go this way, then you'll be baffled, and you'll be unhappy. Wrong direction.

Paramahaṁsa: But we are taking some direction from . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but if you take wrong direction you'll be unhappy. Your destination will not be . . .

Gaṇeśa: So how can the scientists arrive at vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19)?

Prabhupāda: For that he has to take direction from Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says the destination Himself. He comes and says, "Here is. I am the destination. Come here." But if you don't take, that is your misfortune. The direction is here. The perfect director is there. But he's unfortunate—he does not accept this. Therefore he is baffled. We are . . . our propaganda is, therefore, that "You rascals, all blind leaders, rascals, don't try to lead. Take Kṛṣṇa's instruction and lead. Then you'll be perfect." This is our propaganda. Leading must be there, direction must be there, but the direction and leading must be perfect, then you'll be . . . (indistinct) . . . or enquiries must be there, but if the answers or the leading is bad, then you have to . . . (indistinct) . . . so we should make our enquiry to Kṛṣṇa and take His direction. Then you will be all right.

Paramahaṁsa: But some people say that the Bhagavad-gītā is the direction, and some people say that the Koran is the direction, some people . . .

Prabhupāda: Some people . . . many authorities say it is right, and that is your fortune or misfortune. As some people say that it is written by some man or something, then it is not perfect. There are many others also, they say it is perfect. Now it is your choice whom you to follow. So that some people as they are against, there are for also. Now it is up to you to accept whom. It is up to you. We accept the direction of the ācāryas—Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Caitanya. Their word is perfect. And they take the direction of Gandhi or this man, that man. Both of them are taking direction, but when the direction is perfect, then you'll become perfect. If the direction is imperfect, you'll remain imperfect. That's all.

Gaṇeśa: So we can see from the results of those different directions.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Results, yes. Phalena-paricīyate. That is required. Now there are so many Gandhi-ite students. They have also read Bhagavad-gītā, and you have also read Bhagavad-gītā. Find out the difference. That is the result.

Amogha: We have heard that Gandhi was a great mahātmā.

Prabhupāda: You have heard. You have heard so many things—that a mountain gave birth to a mouse. You have heard like that.

Amogha: But Gandhi, he also read the Bhagavad-gītā, and he made so many wonderful comments on the Gītā.

Prabhupāda: That wonderfulness is for the rascals and the fools. What wonderful he has done? He preached nonviolence, but he was killed by violence. That is his wonderful example. He preached the philosophy of nonviolence, which is impossible. Therefore Kṛṣṇa killed him by violence. You see? This is his wonderful. And his foolishness was proved, that there cannot be nonviolence. So he was a fool.

Paramahaṁsa: But he himself was nonviolent.

Prabhupāda: Nonviol . . . that's all right. He was a fool. Therefore I say you cannot bring nonviolence in politics. There is no such history. Just like Arjuna wanted to be nonviolent. Kṛṣṇa chastised him, that "You are a foolish number one." So . . . this is to bring a horse before a cart. Politics and nonviolence, it is incompatible. It is not possible. And he did it. Therefore he was a fool. Just like if you want to cook without fire, (chuckles) is it possible?

Gaṇeśa: No.

Prabhupāda: So, this is foolishness. You become very bold enough, "Now I shall cook without fire," you are a rascal number one. Gandhi did it. Gandhi did it. Actually, he could not drive away the Britishers by nonviolence. For thirty years, thirty-five years he struggled. When Subash Bose introduced violence, they went out. This is politics. Politics and nonviolence, (laughs) they are incompatible. There is no history in the world that politics has been successful without violence, and he introduced this. So how much foolish he was, you can understand. It is same thing like that, if somebody says, "I'll cook without any . . ." "I shall scientifically do that a man can give birth to a child." There is no history, and if I say, "Now I shall do it. I shall see that equal rights. As a woman is giving birth, child, the man will also will give child," these things are foolishness. This is not intelligence. The women are claiming equal rights. So stop giving birth to a child. Then equal rights. Can it be possible? The man and woman unite, but the woman becomes pregnant, not the man. And if somebody says, "Now the man will become pregnant," is it not foolishness?

Paramahaṁsa: But they have made a way so that the women also don't have to become pregnant—this contraceptive, and . . .

Prabhupāda: This is another foolishness. That is another . . . (break) This unnatural thing. (approaching car) What is this insignia?

Śrutakīrti: That is Ford's insignia.

Prabhupāda: Ford? This is Ford?

Śrutakīrti: Yes, they made some . . . this is a Ford now?

Gaṇeśa: LTD.

Śrutakīrti: Yeah, it's a Ford.

Gaṇeśa: Does it mean we should use violence to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness then, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: No. Yes, when there is politics, that is necessary. I am speaking of politics, not of love. You cannot create love by violence. That is another thing. But if you want kingdom, there must be violence. By violence you cannot force a woman, agree to love you. That is not possible. Then there must be love. The business must be done accordingly. But when there is politics, there must be violence. Otherwise you cannot come out victorious.

(break) (in car) . . . in a friendly way. "Might is right." So Gandhi did this foolishness, and he died of violence. (laughs) He praised the philosophy violen . . . of nonviolence, but he was himself killed by violence. That was his foolishness.

Paramahaṁsa: But we have seen Lord Buddha, he conquered all of India with ahiṁsā, nonviolence, Lord Buddha.

Prabhupāda: Lord Buddha was not a politician.

Paramahaṁsa: But he conquered India. He became the most . . .

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. He conquered India. If he conquered India, why he is driven out of India? Nobody is Buddhist now in India. And in Japan, that is also halfway, so that is another thing. Buddha's nonviolence and Gandhi's nonviolence is different.

Paramahaṁsa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Gandhi's nonviolence was rascaldom because he was dealing in politics. Buddha never entered in politics. So how you can compare with Buddha? His activities are different. His activities were for salvation, to stop all kinds of miseries of material world. That was his philosophy. He never dealt in politics. Although he was a king's son, he never dealt in politics. You cannot . . . this is foolishness. We do not know. We do not study what is Buddha's position, what is Gandhi's position.

Paramahaṁsa: But still, everyone in India respects Gandhi so much. They have statues and everything.

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. He was a good gentleman. He was very humble, meek. Because you have got some fault, that does not mean you have no qualities. That is another thing. But if you deal wrongly with something, then you must be called a foolish man. You may have very good qualities, but if you do not know how to deal with business, then you are foolish. He was mainly engaged in politics, but he did not know how to deal with politics. He was reading Bhagavad-gītā, and he was misleading people that in the Bhagavad-gītā there is nonviolence. Just see. Because Arjuna wanted to become nonviolent the whole Bhagavad-gītā was taught to him, how to become violent, and this rascal said that in the Bhagavad-gītā there is nonviolence. It is not false? So a man preaching falsehood, is he a gentleman? Or he is a right man?

Paramahaṁsa: No.

Prabhupāda: So that is his position. Either he is a foolish rascal or he is not a gentleman, falsely preaching Bhagavad-gītā. That is his position. If you do not know a subject matter, why do you talk about it? Either you mislead or cheat or you are a foolish, you have no science. Similarly, here is a tape recorder. I do not know how the machine is working. If I talk about it authoritatively, is it not my foolishness? I can talk about Bhagavad-gītā or something else, but that does not mean I know everything about this machine. But he did it like this. He was dealing in politics, and he took up as a mahātmā, a religious man. That was his cheating.

Paramahaṁsa: And because people are so much in darkness about religion, therefore they accepted.

Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone is in darkness. If you can make propaganda, the people will be misled. That is not very difficult thing. Just like in Russia, nobody is Communist. But it is going on—"The Russia is Communist country." I have studied thoroughly. Nobody is Communist.

Paramahaṁsa: Just the leaders.

Prabhupāda: Maybe a few only. But it is going on by propaganda that Russia is a Communist country. The people in general, they are forced to accept it. That book was written by some man, terrorism. It is terrorism. That's it. By force. Nobody accepts this Communist philosophy, I have studied.

(out of car) They are very, very unhappy. The young man cannot go out of the country. Just see. Restricted. How much uncomfortable he is feeling. Especially in European countries, the young men, they want to go. But they will not allow. They will not allow anything to read except Lenin's literature. What is this? Simply suppressing. Everyone is unhappy. (aside) Which way? This way? This is their position. I have seen it directly. And as soon as one is suspected that he is doing otherwise, he will be sent to some unknown camp. Nobody knows where he has gone. Just see.

Paramahaṁsa: Just like they had some people who came to Russia to start some Buddhist thing, and then they were sent away to some camp, concentration camp.

Prabhupāda: Never seen again.

Paramahaṁsa: No one has seen them.

Prabhupāda: Just see. This is their . . . it is the most fallen country. No freedom. No freedom at all. Horrible country.

Gaṇeśa: Why don't the people revolt if they're so unhappy?

Prabhupāda: Yes, they are revolting, but they are now so much suppressed they cannot . . . sometimes there is revolt. Sometimes there is upheaval.

Amogha: Not a big upheaval, because they are terrorized. They are afraid that if they revolt, then they . . .

Prabhupāda: They will be killed.

Paramahaṁsa: Yeah, the government will come out and just shoot them all.

Prabhupāda: Yes, all the Leninists and Stalinists, they kill. It is a country of tyranny, that's all. The government men, they are simply terrorists, that's all.

Amogha: Just like in Cambodia they just, the new Communist government, they executed tens and thousands of people just recently.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Amogha: People who were working for the old government. They just killed them all. So this what the people are afraid of.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Terrorism. This Communism means terrorism. (aside) Thank you.

Amogha: I have a garland, but it's not finished. Almost . . . (offers obeisances)

Prabhupāda: Communism means terrorism. That I have seen. I have studied personally. By threat, by pressure, that's all. Nobody is Communist in Russia.

Jayadharma: Is the whole world going to become Communist, Prabhupāda? Or is the whole world going to become Kṛṣṇa cons . . .

Prabhupāda: Nobody is Communist, but if the demons are powerful, they will declare.

Amogha: They will introduce it.

Prabhupāda: They will not introduce; they will declare like that, falsely. That's all.

Amogha: Even in some countries where Communism has a very light influence—like in Thailand there's a little bit of Communist influence—when they had a student revolt, the government came in with tanks and machine guns and immediately killed about three thousand students.

Prabhupāda: In Thailand?

Paramahaṁsa: Yes. In Bangkok. That was about two years ago.

Prabhupāda: Oh, just see.

Amogha: So the people are very afraid to cause any upheaval. They are afraid that immediately the government will just come and kill them. 'Cause the government has all the weapons. They have the tanks and the guns and everything. And the normal people, they don't have any weapons.

Prabhupāda: This is the age of Kali. Therefore the only shelter is Kṛṣṇa. There is no other way. In India it's practically dwindling. Now there is no reason they are not sanctioning our temple. They do not give any reason. "No." Why "No"? "We don't give any reason." And "Kīrtana is nuisance, noise, nuisance." They are doing that already.

Śrutakīrti: Śrīla Prabhupāda? For breakfast, just fruits?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śrutakīrti: Milk?

Prabhupāda: No. You can . . . cashew and ginger.

Śrutakīrti: Ginger (aside) You have any ginger? Cashews?

Prabhupāda: And you make, what is called, chānā. And doing lunch make . . .

Śrutakīrti: Cheese.

Prabhupāda: Cheese, cheese. Fry it, and make . . . (indistinct)

Śrutakīrti: Tomato and cheese?

Prabhupāda: Tomato, cheese, potato. Yes. And fried peanuts? And salad, fruit. By force . . . communism is going on by force. It is the result of sinful life.

Paramahaṁsa: They're put into that circumstance.

Prabhupāda: Yes, people are sinful, they will not do nicely. And now, by nature . . . just like the child-killing. They did it in his previous life. Now he is suffering; he will be killed. The nature's reaction. We are taking sympathy with the child who is being killed, but we do not know that he did the same business; now he is being killed. That is nature's law.

Paramahaṁsa: The person who doesn't know, he thinks that the child is innocent . . .

Prabhupāda: Innocent child. He's not innocent. He is sinful. He is being, what is called, chastised.

Paramahaṁsa: Punished.

Prabhupāda: Svakarma-phala-rūpa-jīva. That is the word, svakarma. One suffers . . . (aside) You can sit down here, just like . . . everyone suffers the reaction of his own work. Svakarma-phala-rūpa-jīva. Because he is a child, he takes sympathy, "Oh, such a small child is being killed." He takes him like that. He is the potent criminal. Now he is being punished.

Paramahaṁsa: You were saying with all these wars, the people who are being killed, they are simply . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore those who are in high standard, they do not take anything as wrong. Everyone is suffering his own reaction. Then bhaktas, they think, tat te 'nukampāṁ susamīkṣamāṇo bhuñjāna evātma-kṛtaṁ vipākam (SB 10.14.8). When a devotee is in trouble, he thinks that "I am suffering for my past deeds. Why shall I . . . (indistinct) . . . me?" That is a devotee's attitude. "Let me do my business, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," and then he is sure. Such person is assured to come back. He doesn't care for all this suffering. He thinks, "I am suffering for my past deeds. That's all. Why shall I bother myself? Let me do my present duty: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa." That is the first-class position. He is assured. In spite of all material difficulties, if he goes on with chanting, then his chance is first. That is stated. Dāya-bhāk. Dāya-bhāk means he inherits God's property as the son inherits the father's property. Dāya-bhāk.

So we should be callous with all these political, social . . . we should simply go on. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He was callous. Family affairs, wife responsibility, for mother's responsibility, for . . . nothing. Simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ (CC Adi 17.31). That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's life. Even didn't care for anything, no responsibility. "My only business is chanting." That is . . . you preach for some time, then you simply engage himself. Preaching means to make him strong, preaching, to become firmly convinced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is preaching. So when he is firmly convinced, then he can give up preaching and sit down and simply chant. Not in the beginning. That is imitation. He must be firmly convinced. So we have to study Caitanya Mahāprabhu's life. Except—this is the clear and simple truth—except chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, there is no other business of the human being. So this preaching is also chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. This is preaching. That has been shown by all the disciples of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. All the Gosvāmīs, Haridāsa Ṭhākura and others only did this: how to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness, no other business. That is sannyāsa. He has no other business. To preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness, to practice Kṛṣṇa consciousness, to convince Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that's all. No other business. We don't take part in politics, sociology and mental speculation, science, or so on, so on—all nonsense. We reject all; kicked out. That is the perfection. It is simply waste of time. These are all superficial. Just like waves in the sea. Where is the meaning? The waves are going on. (break)

Unfortunately, being misguided, this position of opulence, they are misusing it and therefore becoming hippies. Simply misusing it. Instead of utilizing the position for development of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they are misusing it. So timely the movement has come to your country. Just try to apply in your practical life, preach all over the world, at least all over your own country. Here also, the Australians, they have got opulence. Try to lead them. You are American or Australian?

Jayadharma: I'm an Australian, Prabhupāda. I'm an Australian.

Amogha: Australian, he says.

Prabhupāda: Australian, that's nice. Learn this art and preaching. There is good potency in your country. They're also not poverty. Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Rājarṣi means very rich, kings. He never said, "All the bhaṅgīs understood it. All the wretched class understood it." He never taught. It is meant for the leaders of the society, opulent kings and leaders. It is meant for them. Poverty-stricken man cannot under . . . but there is no bar, there is no hindrance. But this is especially meant for the opulent person. Otherwise, why Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ? And He instructed first to the sun-god. He is not ordinary person. He instructed later on to Arjuna. He is not ordinary person. Because one important person learns the science, he'll preach it all over the world. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's direct disciples, they are not ordinary persons. So unless one is materially not ordinary, he cannot preach. All the Gosvāmīs, they were coming from respectable . . . and why Gauḍīya Maṭha came? These are third-class men, no position in their past life.

Amogha: Most of them just came from the villages.

Prabhupāda: That's all. Uneducated, half-educated, poor, poverty-stricken. They could not do anything. Some of our Godbrothers, I have beat them . . . (indistinct) . . . Swami. In his previous life he had a big, big business organization. So therefore he has been able to organize like this. They admit it. They are coming from some third-class status of life. This is not trite; this is fact.

Amogha: Actually, I noticed that myself so many times in the way you handle money and the managerial affairs—very expert.

Prabhupāda: Yes, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . Śrī-caitanya-mano 'bhīṣṭaṁ sthāpitaṁ yena bhū-tale, svayaṁ rūpa gosvāmī. Who established the mission of Caitanya Mahāprabhu? Rūpa Gosvāmī. He was minister. He was not a cultivator, plow department.

Paramahaṁsa: It's very difficult in Kali-yuga to get the advanced materialists such as ministers and big businessmen . . .

Prabhupāda: You can convert. It is not difficulty. How the Rūpa Gosvāmī was converted? Because the expert man, that person was Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So if you become expert, you can convert. How this governor was coming? How these politicians were coming?

Paramahaṁsa: Because you're the expert.

Prabhupāda: It is not just me. You have to become expert to convert another expert. If you are not experienced, how you can convert others?

Paramahaṁsa: Is it true that you will end up converting people according to your own, in other words, you convert people of your own caliber?

Prabhupāda: Not own caliber, any caliber. That requires expert management.

Paramahaṁsa: But if you become high quality or high class, then automatically you attract that type of person.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That you can do. You American people, you can do. That I am instructing. You can do. And actually, because some of you will cooperate, the movement is going on. Therefore I came to America. When I found that in India no intelligent boys were coming, then I decided, "Let me go to America."

Paramahaṁsa: Still, even after you went to America and brought back so many European and American disciples, still the Indians are so slow to come and join.

Prabhupāda: Because they have been . . . the disease is very chronic. They are not opulent. That diagnosis already given. They have become poverty-stricken. So daridra-doṣa guṇa naśe. Although they are born in India, they have got many qualification, due to this poverty-stricken position, they . . . their first business is how to . . . because they have got family attachment, so they cannot sacrifice. They will work very, very hard. You have seen how they are going to office, how . . . because they have got the responsibility of family. That is Indians' another feature. They take family responsibility. In your country there is no such thing. There is no family. There is no family responsibility. In India still that old tradition is going on. Therefore they cannot sacrifice the family responsibility, although they are willing. And the whole thing is it is due to poverty-stricken position. They have got family responsibilities. They think, "If I go, then whole family will starve. How can I go?" That is the exact position. And to come to that stage, that "Let my family starve. I don't mind," that is very higher stage. That is sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66): "Oh, no responsibility. Simply I have got respons . . ." That is not ordinary stage. You cannot expect these things from ordinary man.

Jayadharma: A person may see somebody do that, may think that they're irresponsible.

Prabhupāda: Yes, escaping, so many accusations. But with all these accusations one can do that. There is no harm. But that position is not for all.

Paramahaṁsa: Due to that poverty-stricken condition, if someone does come to us, they usually want to get something from us.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes. You find out this verse, tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer. Find out first the index.

Amogha: In Bhāgavatam.

Paramahaṁsa: First Canto. Yellow. Yellow.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Here, here. Find out this verse: tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer bhajann apakvo 'tha patet tato yadi, yatra kva vābhadram abhūd amuṣya kiṁ . . .


tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer
bhajann apakvo 'tha patet tato yadi
yatra kva vābhadram abhūd amuṣya kiṁ
ko vārtha āpto 'bhajatāṁ sva-dharmataḥ
(SB 1.5.17)

Translation: "One who has forsaken his material occupations to engage in the devotional service of the Lord may sometimes fall down while in an immature stage, yet there is no danger of his being unsuccessful. On the other hand, a nondevotee, though fully engaged in occupational duties, does not gain anything."

Prabhupāda: That's it. They are thinking, "I am doing my duty," but they do not gain anything. And a person doesn't care for any responsibility, comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he gains something. Even if he falls down in immature stage, he gains something. But other man, he is doing his duty very nicely, but he is gaining nothing. This is the . . . read the purport.

Paramahaṁsa: "As far as the duties of mankind are concerned, there are innumerable duties. Every man is duty-bound not only to his parents, family members, society, country, humanity, other living beings, the demigods, etc., but also to the great philosophers, poets, scientists, etc. It is enjoined in the scriptures that one can relinquish all such duties and surrender unto the service of the Lord. So if one does so and becomes successful in the discharge of his devotional service unto the Lord, it is well and good. But it so happens sometimes that one surrenders himself unto the service of the Lord by some temporary sentiment, and in the long run, due to so many other reasons, he falls down from the path of service by undesirable association. There are so many instances of this in the histories. Bharata Mahārāja was obliged to take his birth as a stag due to his intimate attachment to a stag. He thought of this stag when he died. As such, in the next birth he became a stag, although he did not forget the incidents of his previous birth. Similarly, Citraketu also fell down due to his offenses at the feet of Śiva. But in spite of all this, the stress is given here to surrendering unto the lotus feet of the Lord, even if there is a chance of falling down, because even though one falls down from the prescribed duties of devotional service, he will never forget the lotus feet of the Lord. Once engaged in the devotional service of the Lord, one will continue the service in all circumstances. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that even a small quantity of devotional service can save one from the most dangerous position. There are many instances of such examples in history. Ajāmila is one of them. Ajāmila in his early life was a devotee, but in his youth he fell down. Still, he was saved by the Lord at the end."

Prabhupāda: Even by sentiment one comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is not loser; he is gainer. And if one person does not come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he does his duty very nicely, he gains nothing.

Paramahaṁsa: Due to the so many rascal commentators on the Bhagavad-gītā, in India all the Indians have the conception that the perfection of human life is to simply execute one's karma or to do his duty to his family, etc., and therefore they're wasting their time in this way and completely neglecting devotional service. (break)

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. You bring so many varieties of food, and my duty is to eat.

Paramahaṁsa: Yes. So . . .

Prabhupāda: So now let me perform my duty. (end)