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750321 - Conversation - Calcutta
(with Press Representative)
Prabhupāda: ...different desires, they are getting different conditions of life. Therefore we find so many species and forms of life.
Guest (Indian Press Representative): Is it possible, some of our..., is it possible on the spiritual platform?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the only platform where...
Guest: But do you think that...
Guest: But are all religions following? There are so many sects.
Prabhupāda: According to... No, why according? This is fact. Religion which is not on the samyavāda, that is not religion. That is some mental concoction. This samyavāda platform is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, as I have quoted already, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). When one is spiritually realized, that is called brahma-bhūtaḥ, and the symptom is prasannātmā. So when one is prasannātmā, naturally he is on the samyavāda platform. On the material platform, nobody is prasannātmā. Nobody.
Guest: But on the spiritual platform, everybody?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Spiritual platform means prasannātmā. That is the distinction. And the material platform means nobody is satisfied. A man, millionaires, he is also committing suicide.
Guest: But do you think that all men can stand on the spiritual platform?
Prabhupāda: All men can stand or not stand—that is a different question. The fact is this. Suppose if I say, "Unless you become a graduate, you cannot enter law college." Now this question does not arise that whether everyone will be graduate. But this is the condition. This is the condition. Anyone who fulfills this condition, he can be admitted.
Guest: Then what is the condition prescribed for standing on the spiritual platform?
Prabhupāda: This is the spiritual platform:
- brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā
- na śocati na kāṅkṣati
- samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu
- mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām
- (BG 18.54)
This is spiritual. Unless you come to this platform, there is no question of samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu or samyavāda. Generally, they do not know it. They are talking of samyavāda. They do not know what is the platform of samyavāda. That is also further explained in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). Bhāgavata, śāstra, all Vedic literatures, they are perfect. So people do not know what is the aim of life. Therefore they have got different views. Actually they are missing what is the aim of life. There is a English proverb, "A man without aim and a ship without rudder," or something like that. So similarly, ask anybody what is the aim of life. He doesn't know; no clear idea.
Guest: Our aim of life should be the realization of God?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because at the present moment we are part and parcel. Just like a son, he has got the symptoms of his father, but he does not know who is his father. He does not know who is his father. There is a Hindi proverb, baap ka beta aur sipaahi kaa ghoda kusnaita tora tola: "The son inherits the quality of the father, but if he does not know who is his father, then what is his position?" That is going on. The scientist, he is trying to create something, but he does not know the supreme creator. Do you follow? Now the scientists are trying to create a living being in the laboratory. But he does not enquire to who has already created so many millions of living entities. He is trying to create a living entity in laboratory. Suppose he creates one living entity. Then what credit is there for him? But he is spending lakhs and crores of rupees.
Guest: Then what should be the scientists' role?
Prabhupāda: Scientists' role—not only scientists—scientists, philosopher, politician, everyone should endeavor that "Wherefrom we got these propensities? Where is the origin?" That is described in the Vedānta-sūtra: athāto brahma jijñāsā. I am a scientist. I am thinking of myself very great man, but I do not think that "Who is that great scientist under whose order the sun, moon, the sea, ocean, everything is working very properly?" I am thinking of that water is created by hydrogen, oxygen, but I do not inquire, "Wherefrom such hugh quantity of hydrogen, oxygen came, so that there is big oceans and seas, water?" That I don't enquire. So I am so foolish scientist. I am theorizing. I am theorizing that life has come from matter, chemical composition. But as soon as I ask that "I give you the chemical. You create," he says, "That I cannot do." This is going on. But our business is, we Kṛṣṇa conscious, that we see that you scientists, you are trying to create a living being, but I glorify the Supreme who has already created millions and millions of living beings. I give you credit that... I cannot give you credit unless you create. But still, as you are thinking that you will be able in future, that's good... But what credit you will have? If I have got millions of rupees, and if you create ten rupees, then what is your credit, even if you create? You cannot do it. You will never be able to create life. That's a fact. That we know. But even if you are able to create, then what credit you, do you get? This is... Already there are millions and trillions of life. Why you are so proud that "We are going to create in the laboratory, life"? Why this false prestige?
Guest: So what is the idea behind the movement?
Prabhupāda: Behind the movement, that... This is the idea, that you try to understand the Supreme Being behind all, everything. That is perfection.
- idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā
- sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi-dattayoḥ
- avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito
- (SB 1.5.22)
Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā. Everyone, big, big philosophers, scientists, they are engaged in tapasya and education, but they do not know what is the ultimate goal of this tapasya. The scientist is working very hard, and he has discovered a nuclear bomb to kill.
Guest: And what is the ultimate goal of tapasya?
Prabhupāda: Tapasya means that by his knowledge... Suppose you are scientist. You prove by scientific way that "Here is the supreme scientist who has given us all these laws."
Guest: Is it possible to see the Supreme?
Guest: With our own eyes?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Guest: It is possible?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Even if it is not possible, but you have to accept there is a supreme scientist. If you cannot see Him, that is your disqualification. That is your disqualification. But you have to admit that there is a supreme scientist. If you say that hydrogen and oxygen mixed together makes water, that's all right. But who has created this big sea and ocean? Wherefrom the hydrogen, oxygen came? Who supplied? That is intelligence. Simply theoretical I know, but I cannot say who has created this big, vast mass of water by mixing hydrogen, oxygen. Wherefrom such huge quantity of hydrogen, oxygen came? Our point of view, that you scientists, you say that hydrogen, oxygen creates water, and here we see that somebody has created, but not somebody will know who is that body, how great He is. And that is our credit. If you want little credit by experimenting, hydrogen, oxygen mixed together, then how much credit should be given who has created the vast Atlantic Ocean—not only one, millions! Why don't you give credit?
Guest: You should give.
Prabhupāda: Just see. That is our point.
Guest: But are you not giving credit?
Prabhupāda: No, nobody is giving. They are denying. Especially these so-called scientists, they are denying the existence of God.
Devotee: "God is dead."
Prabhupāda: "God is dead" or "There is no God." "By science, we shall do everything," and this and..., all nonsense theories. Our proposition is that glorify that supreme scientist. Yad-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam (SB 1.5.22).
Guest: And the supreme scientist is God.
Prabhupāda: He's God. Yes.
Guest: God, or you can give another name as you like, any way.
Prabhupāda: No, God, or the Supreme Being. "God" means the Supreme Being in the dictionary. He is not like you, not like me.
Guest: God or (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Anywhere, He is supreme. We are not supreme. But this subordinate person, he wants to take the position of the supreme by manufacturing a drop of water in the laboratory.
Guest: So what is the easiest way to see the Supreme Being with our own eyes?
Prabhupāda: That you have to take advice from the Supreme. The Supreme says, "If you want to know Me..." Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). You have to take the way of the Supreme. "Simply by devotional service one can understand Me, what I am actually, is." You have to take this way. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We are teaching everyone this bhakti-yogam so that one can understand the Supreme and submit to Him. Yes. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). When one understands by acquiring knowledge after many, many births, then he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ. This is the first-class mahātmā. That we are teaching. It is not a sentiment. Most scientific.
Guest: Is it possible for poverty-stricken people, those who have to earn bread and money by the sweat of their brow?
Prabhupāda: According to śāstra, poverty is no impediment for understanding God. Because we see practically that those who are great souls, they have voluntarily accepted poverty.
Guest: Just like (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Many. Just like Vyāsadeva. There is no comparison of his literature. One cannot write one line like him. But he was living in a cottage. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita, such a great politician, he was living in a cottage. He did not keep any Rolls-Royce car or like that. Rather, this material opulence is impediment to understand God. So it is not that I say, comparatively (indistinct), not that material opulence is also another check. No. Neither poverty is check nor material opulence is check. Anyone can understand if he follows the principles, or process.
Guest: Process as laid down in Gītā?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the A-B-C-D. Then you can go further on. If you read Bhagavad-gītā as it is, there is everything explained. Everything. All problems are solved. Any problem you propose, there is solution in the Bhagavad-gītā. Now this poverty, as you raised this question, poverty, so what is written there in the Bhagavad-gītā? Annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). This is instruction, that "You produce food grain." Now, suppose Calcutta is a big city. Who is producing food grain? Everyone is trying to purchase food grain, but who is thinking that "Wherefrom the food grain will come?" Just see the foolishness of the people. You have to produce food grain. And there is ample facility. But throughout the whole world there are hundreds and thousands of cities. Now, who is producing food grain? The solution is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. He said, annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Kṛṣṇa never said, "By motor tire bhavanti bhūtāni." Bhavanti means flourish. Everyone is engaged in producing motor tire, car, and they are flattering the Arabians for petrol. The same energy, if it would have been engaged in producing food grain, then where is the poverty? (devotees enter) Oh! Hare Kṛṣṇa! Jaya.
Trivikrama: These men have just come from America.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A new Back to Godhead. New issue, Prabhupāda.
Trivikrama: How many copies printed?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: 750,000 copies printed. Our party ordered 200,000.
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Village to village, town to town. (Bengali) Caitanya Mahāprabhu ordered,
- bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra
- janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra
- (CC Adi 9.41)
This is para-upakāra. So what is this nonsense para-upakāra, creating an atom bomb? Is that para-upakāra? Of course, it has got its utilization, but it is not for para-upakāra. (Bengali with guest) Paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). (Bengali) Śūdra is the cātur division, that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Cātur-varnyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Now in India mostly they are śūdras, 99.9. They are not interested that satya śamo damas titikṣa arjavaḥ, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). (Bengali with guest) They are captivated by the śūdras. This, during the British period the śūdra activities, developing the country by railway, by factory, by bridge—these people are innocent. They thought that "Oh, here is the actual civilization. The Britishers have brought." They lost their own civilization.
Guest: Is it possible to be brāhmaṇa for all?
Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Kṛṣṇa said, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Suppose everyone becomes head. Then where is this supply of hands and legs? We do not say that everyone become brain. The brain is ordering, and who will carry the order? The order-carrier must be there, but they must carry order of the brāhmaṇa. Then it will be all right. The brain must be there, and the legs must be there. The legs must move by the dictation of the brain. Then it is perfect. It is not expected also that everyone will become brāhmaṇa. Therefore guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Everyone has got his particular qualities. So we have to utilize: what quality does he belong? But at the present moment the difficulty is that they do not care that in the society there must be a class of brain, brāhmaṇa. That they do not know. They want everyone should become a śūdra, the Communist life, worker, "Work." And therefore they have not been successful. The whole nation is worker, and who will give the brains?
Guest: The whole nation is worker?
Prabhupāda: Yes, Communist country, they want simply worker. But still, they have to create manager. Why manager created? Let everyone become worker. Now, Communist country also, although they say worker, but why they are creating manager?
Guest: (Bengali) Exploitation.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, you are in need of manager. You are need of manager. You cannot deny another class of men of manager. So why not make the best manager, the brāhmaṇa, who is truthful, who is equal, satya śamaḥ damaḥ, who is control of his senses, satya śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣa, who is tolerant? These are the brahminical qualification. Satya śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣa. Who is simple, not hypocrite. Everyone is hypocrite. So why there should not be a class who is not hypocrite? All politicians saying something in the mouth and doing something else, because they are śūdra.
So this is very scientific. How it not be scientific? It is spoken by God. Cātur-varnyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Required. Just like in this institution, I am guru, and if everyone becomes guru, then who will carry out the order of guru? There must be disciple also, who will carry out the order of guru. So it is not required... Just like in your body, it is not that body is made of head only, but head is required. You cannot avoid head, neither you can avoid the leg. So śūdra required, the brāhmaṇa required, the kṣatriya required and the vaiśya required. And the society should be very nicely managed. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ. Why does He not say one varṇa, brāhmaṇa? Naturally there must be division, because all men are not of the same quality. You cannot expect. So whatever quality he has got, utilize that. Aṇḍha-khañja-nyāya. Aṇḍha-khañja-nyāya. The one man is lame, and one man is blind. So both are useless. So they combine together. The lame man was taken on the shoulder of the blind man. So the lame man has no leg, but he has got eyes. He was directing, "Go this way." So both their business was perfect. Similarly, according to the quality of the work, there must be a class of man less intelligent. They cannot independently work. They must require a master. That is śūdra. And then the vaiśya, then the kṣatriya, and the upper man is brāhmaṇa. He gives the direction to the kṣatriya. He is ruler.
Prabhupāda: Yes, (Bengali) ...really classless society. They should not be proud, that "I am brāhmaṇa." No. As you are required, as much, the śūdra is also required. It is not that only the brāhmaṇas are required. This is a very scientific movement. (Bengali) It is not a bogus, sentimental thing. It is a very scientific movement. It is not so-called yogī and svāmī and everything equal. And where is equality?
Guest: The Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is a scientific movement?
Prabhupāda: Most scientific.
- satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ
- yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ
- namasyantaś ca māṁ bhaktyā
- nitya-yuktā upāsate
- (BG 9.14)
Guest: (Bengali) ...to realize the Supreme.
Prabhupāda: Realize the Supreme, that is the first and foremost aim, but at the same time, to keep the whole human society in perfect happiness.
Guest: And at the same time...?
Prabhupāda: To keep the whole human society in perfect happiness, according to the direction of God. Just like I told you that Kṛṣṇa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni. If you want to keep the living entities, both men and animal, you must arrange for their nice fooding. Who can deny this philosophy? But they are saying that poverty should be removed, and we must acquire food for the suffering and starving. But what they are doing? They are manufacturing motor tire, the rascals.
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) There is no question of dharma. First of all we say they must live. That is our proposal. What is the question of dharma? Annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). Give everyone to eat sufficiently. This is our proposal.
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Where is the actual attempt to give everyone sufficient food? Where is that attempt? And here in the Bhagavad-gītā it is plainly said, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14): if you want to keep happy the animals and the men, then produce food grain. Who is doing that? They simply passing resolution and raising funds and then eating, themself, at the cost of others. And therefore the price is increasing. One who has got money, he can pay more price, artificial. I am poor man; I have no money. You have got money. You purchase before me, then I starve. But if there is sufficient supply of food grain, then this thing will not happen. You can distribute without any price. That was being done in India. Educated man means unemployment, is it not? So-called education means creating unemployment. They will go with application, "Give me some clerical post, some this post, that post, that post." This is education.
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Mūḍhā nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. If you don't take advice from Kṛṣṇa, God, then you are a mūḍha. So how he will adjust things? He himself is a mūḍha. A mūḍha means rascal, ass. Therefore our conclusion is that anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, or God conscious, he is a mūḍha. He does not know anything. He will not be able to do anything. Therefore this matter was entrusted to the brāhmaṇa to give direction. Brāhmaṇa means brahma jānatīti brāhmaṇaḥ: "One who knows the Supreme, he is brāhmaṇa." And he takes advice and gives others direction. (Bengali) Why do they go to the bhaṭṭācārya? And he knows what is the action and reaction. That was the system of the society. (Bengali) Nobody is interested. They are simply interested in politics.
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) If you want to act as lawyer, you must learn. You must have legal education. (to devotees:) So you take your bath and prasādam. Wherefrom you are coming?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: From New York.
Prabhupāda: Oh, direct?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: How many hours?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actual flight time was twenty-three hours, but with the time change, about thirty-six hours.
Prabhupāda: You were in the..., thirty-six hours in the plane?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we were in the plane about twenty-four hours.
Prabhupāda: Three hours extra. We had to come here, twenty-one hours.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, it stopped in London, Rome, Beirut...
Prabhupāda: Indian plane?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, an Air India. We came, altogether, ninety-six devotees.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Where are they? They have gone?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are in Māyāpur. They have gone. They have been met by a big bus, three buses, and are going on to Māyāpur.
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Where is Gargamuni?
Śrutakīrti: He's outside.
Prabhupāda: Call him, call him. (Bengali with guest) So? Nobody came?
Gargamuni: No. We sent three notices.
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Gargamuni: But five of them are coming to Māyāpur. They called up.
Prabhupāda: All right. (Bengali with guest) ... concocted idea... (to Gargamuni:) You have got any written statement of our mission?
Guest: Mission activities?
Gargamuni: I gave him a Back to Godhead and the BBT about your books.
Prabhupāda: So you have already supplied.
Gargamuni: I gave him one copy of Back to Godhead and that BBT... You have it there? And the BBT catalog, which gives your history and everything.
Prabhupāda: And catalog? Where is? This is BBT?
Gargamuni: Yes. This tells about your books.
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) ...movement, (Bengali) bogus religious, it is scientific. (Bengali) You can question; I will understand. (break) They do not know what is the meaning of life. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ (SB 7.5.31). Another blind leader, so-called leader, he is blind himself; he does not know how to lead people. And the followers, followers are also blind. So what will be the result? They are bound up... Suppose if I tightly wrap your eyes, and all of them are done so, then how you will lead them?
Guest: Blind leaders and blind followers.
Prabhupāda: Bas. They are controlled by the laws of material nature, and they want to be happy independently. This is rascaldom. If I am controlling you and you want to become happy independently, how it is possible? You must get out of the control first of all. Your eyes should be open. Then you can do something independently. But you are under my control fully, and I have wrapped up your eyes with very thick layer of cloth, and then how you can become independent, work? That they do not know. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). This māyā, this energy, is very, very strong. You cannot get out of it. Then what is the way? Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so important. If one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, then immediately he gets out of the control of māyā. That is the sign. Otherwise, if I remain a blind man, how can I lead others? Caitanya Mahāprabhu therefore said, janma sārthaka kari kāra para-upakāra (CC Adi 9.41). You are very busy doing good to others, but first of all make your life perfect. And otherwise, you rascal, fool, blind, what you will do? So where is the training? Where the politicians are going to take training how to become free from the wrapping, illusion? So they are in illusion, in darkness. What they can do? Futile attempt. Therefore all plans are failure. So many Hitler, so many Gandhi, so many Churchill, they came and...
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Without being Kṛṣṇa conscious, everyone is blind. Yes, everyone is blind.
Guest: Without being...?
Prabhupāda: Being Kṛṣṇa conscious, everyone is blind. And they are trying to lead other blind men. So what will be the result? All of them will fall down on the ditch.
Guest: And they attempt to lead others...
Prabhupāda: Blind men.
Guest: Other blind men.
Prabhupāda: Therefore this fact is summarized in the Bhagavad-gītā in the words,
- na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ
- prapadyante narādhamāḥ
- māyayāpahṛta jñānā
- āsuri-bhāvam āśritāḥ
- (BG 7.15)
Because they have denied the existence of God, therefore they are blind and they are engaged in sinful activities without knowing what is going to happen next in his life. Therefore mūḍha, rascal. And narādhamāḥ. Narādhamāḥ means lowest of the mankind, because in the human form of life one could understand what is God, but he is misusing his intelligence for something else. Narādhamāḥ. But if you say, "They are educated. They have got so much education. Why do you condemn them?" then the answer is māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. This so-called knowledge they have acquired, that means māyā has made them more foolish.
Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says, jaḍa-vidyā sab, māyāra vaibhava, jībake koroye gāḍha (Kalyāṇa-kalpa-taru). He has said like that, that so far advancement of material education means that so-called educated man is becoming more, more, more an ass. Why? Anitya soṁsāre, moha janamiyā: he is simply getting more attached to this material world, where he will not be allowed to stay. This is his foolishness. Naturally, we are sitting in this room, and if we say that "I can spare only two minutes," then will you be very much eager to decorate the room? So that warning is already there. Everyone knows that "I will not be able to stay here," and they are making skyscraper building. How foolish they are. He knows that "I will not be allowed to stay here," and he is busy whole life how to make fogscraper, skyscraper. The same example: If I say, "You cannot sit here more than few minutes," then will you be engaged how to decorate this room? You'll know naturally that "I am here for two minutes. Why shall I take..., waste my time to decorate?" They are doing that actually. So are they not foolish? (Bengali) Anitya soṁsāre, moha janamiyā, jībake karaye gāḍha. Unnecessary attachment. Next life he may be not even a human being. The skyscraper building he is doing now with so great labor and enthusiasm, and next life he may be a cat or rat in that building. How can you stop it? The nature's law will act. If you have behaved like cats and dogs and you have attachment for the building, then nature will, "All right, you become a cat and dog according to karma and you remain in this building." (break) (end)