740702 - Conversation BG 16.07–23 - Melbourne

Conversations by Date, 1974

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

740702R2-MELBOURNE - July 02, 1974 - 30:00 Minutes

Cāru:

pravṛttiṁ ca nivṛttiṁ ca

janā na vidur āsurāḥ

na śaucaṁ nāpi cācāro

na satyaṁ teṣu vidyate

(BG 16.7)

"Those who are demoniac do not know what is to be done and what is not to be done. Neither cleanliness nor proper behavior nor truth is found in them."

asatyam apratiṣṭhaṁ te

jagad āhur anīśvaram

aparaspara-sambhūtaṁ

kim anyat kāma-haitukam

(BG 16.8)

"They say that this world is unreal, that there is no foundation and that there is no God in control. It is produced of sex desire, and has no cause other than lust."

etāṁ dṛṣṭim avaṣṭabhya

naṣṭātmāno 'lpa-buddhayaḥ

prabhavanty ugra-karmāṇaḥ

kṣayāya jagato 'hitāḥ

(BG 16.9)

"Following such conclusions, the demoniac, who are lost to themselves and who have no intelligence, engage in unbeneficial, horrible works meant to destroy the world."

Prabhupāda: This industry is horrible work. Simply by tilling your ground you get food grains, and keep some cows, you get milk—your economic problem is solved. Why such big, big industries? Ugra-karma. Then? Go on.

Cāru:

kāmam āśritya duṣpūraṁ

dambha-māna-madānvitāḥ

mohād gṛhītvāsad-grāhān

pravartante 'śuci-vratāḥ

(BG 16.10)

"The demoniac, taking shelter of insatiable lust, pride and false prestige, and being thus illusioned, are always sworn to unclean work, attracted by the impermanent."

Prabhupāda: The big two wars of the world happened only on account of this industry. Do you know that? The cause is the big, big industry. Germany, industrial, they produce goods. They must have market. But when they go to sell, there is no market. Britishers will not allow to sell them. The Britisher will take, purchase from them, and stamp it, "Made in England" and sell it. And this is the cause of two big war. Therefore German declare twice war. Disaster. Therefore it is said, jagata ahitāya. Then? Go on.

Cāru: Purport?

Prabhupāda: No, the other śloka.

Cāru: Other śloka? Jaya.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Cāru:

cintām aparimeyāṁ ca

pralayāntām upāśritāḥ

kāmopabhoga-paramā

etāvad iti niścitāḥ

(BG 16.11)

Prabhupāda: Translation?

Cāru: There is one more verse.

āśā-pāśa-śatair baddhāḥ

kāma-krodha-parāyaṇāḥ

īhante kāma-bhogārtham

anyāyenārtha-sañcayān

(BG 16.12)

"They believe that to gratify the senses unto the end of life is the prime necessity of human civilization. Thus there is no end to their anxiety. Being bound by hundreds and thousands of desires by lust and anger, they secure money by illegal means for sense gratification."

Prabhupāda: Then? Next.

Cāru:

idam adya mayā labdham

imaṁ prāpsye manoratham

idam astīdam api me

bhaviṣyati punar dhanam

asau mayā hataḥ śatrur

haniṣye cāparān api

īśvaro 'ham ahaṁ bhogī

siddho 'haṁ balavān sukhī

āḍhyo 'bhijanavān asmi

ko 'nyo 'ti sadṛśo mayā

yakṣye dāsyāmi modiṣya

ity ajñāna-vimohitāḥ

(BG 16.13-15)

Translation: "The demoniac person thinks: 'So much wealth do I have today, and I will gain more according to my schemes.' "

Prabhupāda: Next. Next bank balance. (laughter) Then?

Cāru: " 'So much is mine now, and it will increase in the future, more and more. He is my enemy, and I have killed him, and my other enemy will also be killed. I am the lord of everything, I am the enjoyer, I am perfect, powerful and happy. I am the richest man, surrounded by aristocratic relatives. There is none so powerful and happy as I am. I shall perform sacrifices, I shall give some charity, and thus I shall rejoice.' In this way, such persons are deluded by ignorance."

Prabhupāda: Just like Hitler, Napoleon. They thought like that. Yes. Then? Next verse?

Cāru: Aneka-citta-vibhrāntā moha-jāla samāvṛtāḥ . . .

Prabhupāda: Now where is Hitler? Where is Napoleon? Finished. Then?

Cāru: Moha-jāla-samāvṛtāḥ, prasaktāḥ kāma-bhogeṣu patanti narake 'śucau (BG 16.16): "Thus perplexed by various anxieties and bound by a network of illusions, one becomes too strongly attached to sense enjoyment and falls down into hell."

Prabhupāda: Then?

Cāru:

ātma-sambhāvitāḥ stabdhā

dhana-māna-madānvitāḥ

yajante nāma-yajñais te

dambhenāvidhi-pūrvakam

(BG 16.17)

"Self-complacent and always impudent, deluded by wealth and false prestige, they sometimes perform sacrifices in name only, without following any rules or regulations."

ahaṅkāraṁ balaṁ darpaṁ

kāmaṁ krodhaṁ ca saṁśritāḥ

mām ātma-para-deheṣu

pradviṣanto 'bhyasūyakāḥ

(BG 16.18)

"Bewildered by false ego, strength, pride, lust and anger, the demon becomes envious of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is situated in his own body . . ."

Prabhupāda: Next stage: "What is God? I am God." Then?

Cāru: ". . . and in the bodies of others and blasphemes against the real religion."

tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān

saṁsāreṣu narādhamān

kṣipāmy ajasram aśubhān

āsurīṣv eva yoniṣu

(BG 16.19)

"Those who are envious and mischievous, who are the lowest among men, are cast by Me into the ocean of material existence, into various demoniac species of life."

āsurīṁ yonim āpannā

mūḍhā janmani janmani

mām aprāpyaiva kaunteya

tato yānty adhamāṁ gatim

(BG 16.20)

"Attaining repeated birth amongst the species of demoniac life, such persons can never approach Me. Gradually they sink down to the most abominable type of existence."

tri-vidhaṁ narakasyedaṁ

dvāraṁ nāśanam ātmanaḥ

kāmaḥ krodhas tathā lobhas

tasmād etat trayaṁ tyajet

(BG 16.21)

"There are three gates leading to this hell—lust, anger and greed. Every sane man should give these up, for they lead to the degradation of the soul."

etair vimuktaḥ kaunteya

tamo-dvārais tribhir naraḥ

ācaraty ātmanaḥ śreyas

tato yāti parāṁ gatim

(BG 16.22)

"The man who has escaped these three gates of hell, O son of Kuntī, performs acts conducive to self-realization and thus gradually attains the supreme destination."

yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya

vartate kāma-kārataḥ

na sa siddhim avāpnoti

na sukhaṁ na parāṁ gatim

(BG 16.23)

Prabhupāda: I think you missed that verse, jagato ahitāya. Anyway, these are the description of demonic activities. So this is practical. The last two disastrous war was waged only for this industry. This is the cause. German, they are actually in Europe very intelligent, and their machine products and other things, they make very nice things. At least, I have got experience, German chemicals are first-class chemical. So they manufacture, and British occupied the half of the world in their colonization, whole Africa, and they controlled India and controlled China, Japan, yes, China, Burma, Ceylon, Australia. So these poor people, they manufactured. They have got goods enough; where to sell? As soon as they go to the British territories, "No, you cannot sell. If you want to sell, then hundred percent duty." So price increase. This was the grudge. Everyone knows. This is the cause of two wars, the jagato ahita.

Now, why so much? You require a scissor? Go to a blacksmith and pay something. He'll make a scissor. "No. Produce millions of scissor." Then where is market, sir? This is going on. Produce millions of TV machine. Simple they are used for wasting time. One or two or five made for some important business; now they are producing millions of sets. They must sell. And people are induced to purchase. And as soon as they purchase, they simply see television. Idol worship. And learning vicious things. Some unnecessary picture is produced there. They like to see it. Two train are coming and they are smashed. (laughs) I have seen some television. Yes. People are learning how to smash, how to steal, how to harass people. Things are being shown like that. Not that, "You are soul. You are spirit soul. If you degrade yourself, you then get this." You make that television, then how transmigration of the soul is taking place. They have manufactured the machine, so utilize for your propaganda. We have got to do so many things. We can utilize everything.

So if they are not used for Kṛṣṇa's purpose they'll be used for committing disaster in the world. Just like the atomic bomb. They are meant for creating disaster, that's all. What else they can do? And now everyone is having atomic weapon, just like India has now got. That means they are preparing, by nature's course, they are preparing for war, and "I put my atomic bomb on your head, and you put on my head. You die; I die." That's all. They simply die. Now what was the result of the disastrous war twice? The whole European nations ruined. They are not, no more rich. I saw in Paris, in Germany, they are not as rich as the Americans. Because American inland, there was no such big war, so their opulence is existing. But on account of these two wars, British completely finished. Yes. British completely . . . it is now . . . Hitler wanted that, "I shall again make these English people fisherman's island. They have to take their business to fishing only." (laughter) That was Hitler's declaration.

Madhudviṣa: That has happened.

Prabhupāda: That has happened.

Madhudviṣa: They are fishing all over the world, trying to get some oil, trying to get some steel, how to get some grain.

Cāru: They only work two days in a week now in England.

Madhudviṣa: That's finished now. During the petrol shortage they had to cut themselves down to two days a week.

Prabhupāda: Now they have got Australia. Australia is English possession?

Madhudviṣa: No.

Prabhupāda: No more.

Cāru: Not any more.

Prabhupāda: But I know, all educated and advanced educated Englishmen, they were coming to Australia for good job. Therefore most of the technical posts, they are occupied by Indians in London. As soon as one is highly qualified medical man, he comes to Australia. So who will take care of them? So therefore they imported some brain from India. Anyway, our time should be saved for self-realization. That is perfect civilization. And not for creating unnecessary necessity of life. That will increase problem. (pause) So scientists, they disagreed or agreed with us?

Madhudviṣa: They did not want to get in . . . they did not want to . . .

Prabhupāda: But they could not answer, "Who is the manufacturer of the brain of the scientist?" That they could not.

Madhudviṣa: You have said in one of your tapes, "They want to start half way." Like they say: "All of a sudden there is an aeroplane appeared in the sky." They do not trace out where that aeroplane is coming from. So similarly, they are interested in the problems of today, but they do not want to delve into the essential problem. They are talking about building nice houses, using this, that. They do not want to delve into . . .

Prabhupāda: This is practical. The scientists have got good brain, but who manufactured the brain? You cannot do it. You have not manufactured your brain. If you say: "By nature," then nature is more powerful than you. But nature is dead. It cannot create life. That is in the hand of Kṛṣṇa. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7). As soon as the question of jīva, living entity, there, this, mine, you can say it is nature. And other things? Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarva . . . (BG 3.27). Prakṛti, nature, is doing. Everything explained.

In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is said, sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā (Bs. 5.44): "There is an energy which can create, maintain and destroy the whole cosmic manifestation." Sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā, one. There is one energy. Chāyeva yasya vibharti bhuvanāni durgā: "That energy is working just like shadow under the direction of Kṛṣṇa." That is big energy, but that energy . . . just like atomic energy, big energy, but it is done by a scientist, not that the ingredients automatically mix together and become an atomic . . . no. That is not possible. Big, big brain, scientist, they are dealing. Similarly, this big energy—creation, maintenance and destruction of nature—that nature is called Durgā. Durgā. Duḥ. Duḥ means difficult, and gā means going, or to understand. To understand the laws of material nature is very difficult. That is called Durgā. Or durgā means . . . Durgā, durgā means this is like a fort. We are kept within this, and the superintendent is Durgā. Therefore Durgā's picture is ten hands, ten directions, with different kinds of weapon protecting. Sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni vibharti durgā, icchānu . . . now the conclusion, icchānurūpam api yasya ca ceṣṭate sā: "She is working not independently; according to the desire of somebody else." Who is that somebody? Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi: "That is Govinda. I am worshiping Him." And this is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā.

mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ

sūyate sa-carācaram

hetunānena kaunteya

jagad viparivartate

(BG 9.10)

What is the use of . . .? Why should we go to research? Everything is there. Our position is very safe. We get the perfect knowledge without wasting our time. We take from Kṛṣṇa, that's all. Finish. We know everything. Just like so many scientists, so many psychology, psychiatrist and religionist, they come to me, but I am neither of them. I never was a scientist, neither I am a psychologist, neither a psychiatrist, neither this or that. But I speak on the strength of Bhagavad-gītā, I defeat them. It is practical. So many people came to me, but nobody went unharmed. Yes.

Madhudviṣa: Digvijāya.

Prabhupāda: Because we are getting perfect knowledge from Kṛṣṇa.

Madhudviṣa: Their question may be, What would you advise them to do . . .

Prabhupāda: That . . . this, this boy, Svarūpa Dāmodara. He has written this book, hearing me, hearing . . . (break) . . . don't make addition, alteration. Therefore we present Bhagavad-gītā as it is, no addition, alteration. The same thing. As soon as there is addition, alteration, it is gone, finished.

Madhudviṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, aren't you presenting Kṛṣṇa consciousness according to time, place and circumstances?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Madhudviṣa: So what enables a person to do that?

Prabhupāda: No . . . but principle is that you try to understand that you are not this body. That is applicable in all time, all circumstances, all, for everyone. It is not that formerly one had to learn that he's not this body, and now that is not required. The same problem is there still. Arjuna, five thousand years ago, he was given lesson about this, that "You are not this body, you are soul." The same problem is now also for the foolish person, because the foolish person will always remain in the world, and the intelligent man is to teach him. This is fact always, without any consideration of time, space and circumstance. There will be certain class of men foolish, and there will be certain class of men who are intelligent. So the foolish man has to take intelligence from the intelligent man. This is perpetually truth in this material world. It is not time and circumstances changes this principle. There will be foolish men. Just like now we read, "Two classes of men are there always, the demons and the demigods." So at the present moment more demons. Two classes of men are there always, but at the present moment the demons, number of demons, are more, and number of demigods are less, because it is Kali-yuga.

Laguḍi: Śrīla Prabhupāda, does this possible . . . (indistinct) . . . to teach consciousness in Russia and the country who are in the unitary trust in the East? Like here in the West or America and Australia, in the . . .?

Madhudviṣa: His question is . . . he is . . . this boy is Yugoslavian, Yugoslavian, and he has done some translating of your Īśopaniṣad into Yugoslavian. So he is wondering, is it possible to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness in Yugoslavia?

Prabhupāda: Everywhere possible.

Madhudviṣa: And in other Russian . . . but these countries are all under Communist rule. It is very difficult in those countries.

Prabhupāda: Not difficult. Nothing is difficult. For the time being it is difficult, but in due course of time it will be very easy. Now who knew that in Europe and America or all over the world, Hare Kṛṣṇa will go on? Bon Mahārāja left the field, others left the field. You see? Other svāmīs, they came. They talked all nonsense, yoga, and this and that, nose pressing, eyes pressing—all finished. Now Hare Kṛṣṇa is going on. Now people, the nose-presser and eyes-presser, (chuckles) they are no more important. Is it not? Eh? Now our men go and challenge these rascals. And in New York they did it, huh?

Satsvarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And they are afraid of our troops. (laughter) They are afraid.

Madhudviṣa: One of those nose-pressers, he once was speaking, and he said: "These Hare Kṛṣṇa people, they like me very much. They always come to my lectures, and they sell all the books, all their books, and then they go away before I start to talk." (laughter)

Prabhupāda: "You go on pressing your nose. We make our business and go away." (laughter)

Madhudviṣa: He was speaking like that because our men go into the lecture dressed in disguise, plain clothes, and we are going in the audience selling books to everyone. They all get the book, and then, when he begins to speak, then we all turn around and go out.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they did it in the Guru Maharaji's camp also.

Satsvarūpa: Ah, yes. In Houston.

Prabhupāda: Hundreds of Bhagavad-gītā As It Is sold.

Satsvarūpa: Thousands.

Prabhupāda: Thousands. So we take advantage of this meeting. We do our business and go away. And they have no books. They have simply that pressing of nose, that's all, nothing else. They have no philosophy, nothing of the sort. What they will write? They have no philosophy. Simply cheat that, "Press your nose, you get Bhagavān." That's all. And people think, "It is so easy. Why shall I go to Bhaktivedanta Swami? Let me go to this Guru Maharaj." They think like that. And some of our men, feeling too much pressure, they go away. But here there is nothing cheap, that simply by pressing nose and eyes and you become God. Don't make compromise. This principle must be observed. Then you'll remain strong. As soon as you make compromise, then it is finished. Dṛḍha-vratāḥ. Find out this verse. Dṛḍha-vratāḥ. What is that? Bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ (BG 7.28). Namasyantaś ca māṁ . . . (BG 9.14)

Cāru: Bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ.

Prabhupāda: Ah, ah. That dṛḍha-vratāḥ must be there, strong determination. Then it will go on. The scientists will come to learn and the psychiatrists will come to learn if you keep dṛḍha-vratāḥ. And as soon as you make compromise, then nobody will care for it. (end)