740529 - Morning Walk - Rome

Morning Walks by Date, 1974

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

740529MW-ROME - May 29, 1974 - 63:41 Minutes

Prabhupāda: . . . advancement is different from others. There are three stages: bodily, mental, intellectual, and above that, spiritual. So we are propagating spiritual advance. Therefore those who are on the bodily platform, mental platform or intellectual platform, they cannot understand our process. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). Bahiḥ means external. Those who are captivated by the external feature, they cannot understand what we mean by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The external feature, those who are on the bodily platform, they think this material advancement—big, big house, big, big road . . . this is also required, but this is not all. But they do not know that beyond this, there is other things which is really essential for the human form of . . . they are captivated by this, external, bahiḥ. Just like I am, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, I am Brahman, spirit soul. And this body is bahiḥ, the mind is bahiḥ, the intelligence is bahiḥ. That they cannot . . . this water is supplying, what is this?

Dhanañjaya: Yes, this is keeping the water fresh so that it doesn't become stagnant.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Wherefrom this water is coming?

Dhanañjaya: This is coming from the municipal supply. It is not natural. It's not natural spring water or stream water. It's artificially pumped.

Prabhupāda: And the water is also going out?

Dhanañjaya: Somewhere, yes. It is being circulated. (pause) So therefore there must be two kinds of intelligence: intelligence which is being generated by the brain, and intelligence coming from the Supersoul.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dhanañjaya: So everyone in the material world is caught up with the intelligence generated by the brain.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they are bahir-artha-māninaḥ, they are thinking that this is all. A group of men is coming, and they are exploiting the resources, material world. Just like this building. It is nothing but exploiting the resources: making brick from the earth or stone or iron, and they pile up. Just like the children goes to the beach, they pile up the sand, and they imagine that somebody is making big palace, something is . . .

Dhanañjaya: Big castle.

Prabhupāda: Big castle. And at a time they left. In the Roman, the . . . formerly, the Romans, they also came. They also constructed big, big buildings. Now they are rotting, and another generation, they also are creating same thing. But exactly like the children, after playing, they are going. Nobody knows where they have gone. Similarly, these rascals, they are coming. They have got the human intelligence. Simply spoiling that intelligence in amassing the external resources of material nature, and they leave the platform and again go away, and take the birth of some other form of life. Everything forgotten just like dream. This is going on. They cannot understand it has no value.

Dhanañjaya: They are thinking their success is in building huge skyscrapers that stand for thousands of years.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And within that thousands of years, he personally might have gone to the species of some worms and germs. That they do not believe. If they believe that, then they cannot do it. If they think that, "After constructing this big, big skyscraper, I may become a tree or a germ or an animal," then they cannot do this. And they do not encourage this philosophy also, because if they encourage that, then this thing will not be done, people will not be interested, just like we are not interested. Therefore they do not like to discuss such thing. This is their position. We are trying to get out of these activities, material activities, and they are trying to entangle themselves in the material activities. So much difference. (pause) This is a nice path.

Dhanañjaya: So these buildings are mere symbols of their ignorance.

Prabhupāda: That's all. They have got some intelligence. They are utilizing for piling up these stones and bricks, that's all. This is their intelligence, how to pile up nicely stones and bricks. Crane, the same thing there. The real business is to pile up some stones and bricks, that's all.

Dhanañjaya: This is almost like . . .

Prabhupāda: They are making research, engineering. The real business is how to pile up stones and bricks. That's all. The same business as the children pile up some sand and imagine, "This is park, this is this, this is that."

Dhanañjaya: Didn't Rāvaṇa, he wanted to pile up stones and bricks, too, to reach the heavenly planets.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes . . . but he was a materialist. That is business of the materialist. What is this? Aerodrome? No.

Dhanañjaya: No, this is a restaurant.

Prabhupāda: They can eat down. (laughter) These rascals are thinking eating on this top, this is their advancement of civilization. And waste energy. The human energy is so valuable that one can understand his real life, self-realization—that they forget. They wasting the energy for making a restaurant on the sky. They think it is advancement.

Dhanañjaya: They want to dominate over the material energy.

Prabhupāda: What is that dominate? One kick will finish everything. That is illusion. They are thinking, "We are going to dominate," but they are dominated always. Therefore, because they have no intelligence, they cannot understand. One earthquake can finish all this. All go down immediately. So what is that dominate? Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ kar . . . (BG 3.27). The prakṛti, nature, is giving chance just like father and mother give chance that the children pile up stone and sand. "Let them play." Similarly prakṛti, mother prakṛti, nature, giving all this, "Let this rascal play like that. What can be done?" He does not know that "After this piling of stones and bricks, I will have to leave this place. And I do not know where I am going." So less intelligence. And they do not know what he is. He is thinking, "I am this body," this body will be finished. That's all. "I was zero. I assumed some body. Now again I shall become zero." That's all. Śūnyavādī. Nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādī. It is covered? Yes.

(break) . . . viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). Durāśayā, some utopian hope of becoming happy. This is called durāśayā.

Dhanañjaya: And the futuristic plans for the cities have . . . they are going to enclose the cities in big domes made of plastic. And all the roads, instead of being on the ground, they will be in the sky too. They will have aerial roadways.

Prabhupāda: Idle brain, devil's workshop. They are thinking, "In this way we shall be happy." Then they will plan another thing, another thing, and everything will be broken. It is same childish play like that.

Dhanañjaya: But these things must have been done before.

Prabhupāda: That is going on. Therefore it is called punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30): "chewing the chewed." That's all. You know the sugarcane. You chew it and throw it, and again another man comes to chew it again. This is going on. They do not have the sense . . . even in this Rome city, they see that "Big, big buildings were constructed by our previous forefathers, and they are now lying, now simply relics. So this will be also relics. So what we are doing actually?" But they have no sense. Another relic. And other generation come, they will make another relic. This is called punaḥ punaḥ, again and again chewing the chewed. That's all. They have no other brain to do something else, which is actually fact. They are seeing it that, "This will be, say, after two thousand years it will be all useless. So what actually we are doing?" They have no sense of what is actuality, what is reality, no spiritual knowledge. Therefore bahir-artha-māninaḥ, external something, some engagement, like children. They play with something, they do not know that, "It has no future, it has no meaning, what we are doing." They do not know it. But they are very busy. So this is all childish, ignorance.

Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda, there was a French philosopher, Voltaire. He said you should not simply criticize negatively, because this is the best of all the possible worlds there is. This is all we have. So they would criticize that our hope in the spiritual world is utopian; better turn to cultivate the material world as best you can.

Prabhupāda: No, material world we can see that it is useless. Everyone sees. That I am giving, this example. Before, the Romans, they constructed this big, big building. Now what is the value of that? It has no value. Simply it is kept as sentiment, relics, that's all. So this will be also the same thing. So where is the utility? Spiritual . . . apart from spiritual, what is the value of your material activity? It is practical. Everyone can see. If one comes to Rome, they can see that these big, big buildings, they were very nice building at that time, very wonderful building, but what is the value of it now? Anyone can see. Any sane man can see. So why should we waste our energy in that way? If there is any valuable work, let us see. That is intelligence. To make another heaps of relics, is that very good sense? Nobody will go there even to urine or pass stool.

Dhanañjaya: No facilities.

Prabhupāda: No facility. Nobody is . . .

Dhanañjaya: Only the cats go there.

Prabhupāda: That's all.

Dhanañjaya: So many cats are living there.

Satsvarūpa: But just like this building up ahead, they say: "But now we have it, we can enjoy. There are so many facilities there we are enjoying every day."

Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. What you are enjoying?

Satsvarūpa: In this building, working there.

Prabhupāda: So that enjoyment, eating, sleeping, mating, the animals are doing that. What other enjoyment you have got? The same thing, eating, sleeping, that's all. That can be done without this building. Even the animals, they very nicely sleep on the ground. They haven't got skyscraper building, but they have no disturbance in their sleeping. The birds are sleeping on the top of the tree very nicely. So what advancement you have made than the birds and the beast? The business is the same.

Haihaya: The Communists say that first we must to feed the people, give the people the same rights, and after, we will give them a life of spiritual life, a life of . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But you cannot do that. Why there are so many hungry people all over the world? What you have done? There are thousands and thousands. Even in big cities like New York, why there are so many people lying on the street? Why the hippies are lying on the street, on the park? So what is the value of your this proposal? You cannot stop it.

Haihaya: Yeah, but they criticize us that we don't want to feed . . .

Prabhupāda: No, why the hippies are lying on the street or in the park? Why? You give them relief. The whole Amsterdam city is full of hippies lying on the street and park. What you are doing for them? They are not poor men. They have got enough to eat. Their parents, father, grandfather, they can give. Why they are lying? What you can do? Go and pick them up. Make them nicely living. Why don't you do that? Talking nonsense only. What is their answer? Why they have become hippies? They are not . . . the Indians may be poverty-stricken, but they are not poverty-stricken. In England the whole British empire is there. The whole American government is there. And still, Western countries, they have got resources. They have means. They are not poor. Why your sons and grandsons are lying on the street? What is their answer? Huh? They are making plan that everyone would live materially very comfortably, but why these people, in spite of possessing material facilities, why they are lying on the street? (break) This is the real problem.

Satsvarūpa: We have to try to teach everyone.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is our duty, because everyone is rascal, so we have to give them knowledge. The first basic principle, knowledge that, "You are not this body." And they will never agree. They will not take this knowledge. They will stick to this principle, "No, I am this body." "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am brahmin," "I am kṣatriya," "I am this," "I am that." They will stick to that. So as soon as they stick to this principle, they are animals. The dog is also thinking like that. If I say to a dog, "Mr. Dog, you are not this body; you are soul," what he will understand? The same position of the so-called human society. If I say that, "You are not American; you are not Roman; you are spirit soul," he will not agree. So what is the difference between dog and him? Is there any difference? The dog cannot understand. If I say: "My dear dog, you are not this body, you are spirit soul," he will not be able to understand. And if I say a gentleman, American or Indian or Roman that, "You are not this body," if he cannot understand, then where is the difference between the dog and the man?

Dhanañjaya: No difference.

Prabhupāda: That's it. He is a dog actually, and he is thinking that, "I am very advanced, civilized." This is the position. Because he has no knowledge. Without knowledge, there is no difference between dog and man. Dog is sleeping on the street very comfortably, and you are sleeping on the top of the skyscraper building, taking three dozen pills. (laughter) So what is your civilization? Because for want of knowledge they cannot understand that, "What is our actual position? The dog is an animal. He sleeps very comfortably on the street, and I have spent so much money, but I cannot sleep without this tranquilizer." So where is your advancement? Such a nonsense he is.

Haihaya: No control.

Prabhupāda: No. No knowledge. That is the difficulty.

Dhanañjaya: And no ability even to enjoy.

Prabhupāda: No, because they have no knowledge. How we can enjoy life without knowledge? They also accept that for this comfortable situation they require knowledge—the engineering knowledge, this knowledge, that knowledge. But that knowledge is not sufficient. You require another knowledge. That you are lacking. You are deficient in that knowledge, self-realization. That is the defect. This knowledge will not help you. For eating, sleeping knowledge, this child, if I give him some eatable, immediately he knows the knowledge, "This is eatable. I shall capture it and put it in the mouth." It doesn't require any education. That is natural. If I love this child, he will respond. This knowledge is already there. Even a dog, "Tch, tch, tch, come on, come on," he will come. So for this eating, sleeping, mating, the knowledge is there in the animals, in the children. That does not require any advanced knowledge. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (to child) Come on. Come on, yes. Very intelligent. (laughing) Thank you very much.

Satsvarūpa: Then the next question is where do you get your knowledge. Like that boy asked in the airport.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet. Go to guru. Guru. Yes. The immediate answer. Who is guru? Śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham: who has heard from the Vedas perfect knowledge and who is fixed up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is guru. Everything is there. Immediate answer is tad-vijñānārtham. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This life is for inquiring where shall I go for knowledge. Athāto brahma-jiñāsā.

tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet

samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham

(MU 1.2.12)

Everything is there. When they were building this costly skyscraper, they forgot that this skyscraper will be the same fate as there were big, big Roman buildings two thousand years ago. Because I will have to lead. Although the building is very solid—it will not be destroyed within five thousand years—but you are not going to live here for five thousand years. You can live for fifty years, sir. Then go away. Then it will be relic. That's all. So why don't you make guarantee that, "I have made this strong building to stand for five thousand . . . let me live also"? Where is your that knowledge? This is illusion. They know it that, "I shall not be able to live in this house. I shall not get the duration of life as big as this building will have. Then why am I wasting my energy in this way? I shall be zero after fifty years." What is this knowledge? You are not also going to enjoy. Then he is pleased that, "My sons and grandsons and . . ." Who is your grandson? Who is your son? That he does not know. Nobody's son, nobody's grandson. Everyone is coming just like we have come, and they will go away. So similarly, they are coming and going. This is it. No knowledge.

Nitāi: So the reply is that, "Well, we require some place to stay."

Prabhupāda: Yes, that you can stay anywhere. Anywhere.

Nitāi: But it's a little bit cold here in Italy, so we require a building. We cannot just stay under the tree.

Prabhupāda: Well, when Italy . . .

Italian devotee: It's a very wet country. The winter is very long and wet.

Prabhupāda: No, no. We don't say that don't construct building, but don't think that this is everything. We say . . . we don't say that you don't construct building. But you construct building, sit comfortably, but take knowledge. But they are not ready for the knowledge. They think, "This is all knowledge." That's all. That is the difficulty. We say that, "All right, you have constructed this building, but you take this knowledge. This is not permanent; you are permanent. So why don't you try for your permanent residence?" Is it very unreasonable? If I say: "My dear Mr. Such-and-such, you have constructed a very nice house. That is all right. But you cannot stay here," is it a wrong proposal? So why he does not understand that, "I will not be able to stay. Then where is that place I will be able to stay forever?" He says . . . rascal, he will not take this knowledge. Then he'll say: "Oh, don't talk all these things."

Italian devotee: He gets very angry, very upset at this movement.

Prabhupāda: He is such a foolish that he knows that he will not be able to stay in this but, "Why I made this house so strong, durable? I could have made some temporary house, some four pillars, that's all. But why I am anxious like that? I want that a building should be so strong it will endure for so many years." But what about you? What is your guarantee? That knowledge they will not take. This is their illusion. We don't say that you have done wrong. Utilize it. Be comfortable, seated, and use your time for taking that knowledge. (japa)

Dhanañjaya: . . . constructing these buildings in defiance of the existence of God. They are constructing these buildings in defiance.

Prabhupāda: Not defiance. Out of foolishness. They have got some energy for better purposes, but they are not utilizing it for better purposes—for some things which is illusion. That's all. They have got intelligence. This construction of building requires good intelligence, but they're lacking this intelligence that, "I have constructed this house very nicely, but I will not be able to live in it."

Dhanañjaya: Actually, they don't live in here. No one lives in these buildings. These are office buildings. Even they don't live there. They simply work.

Prabhupāda: That is also living, for eight hours daily. We don't condemn, but our proposal is that you have got higher intelligence. Utilize it for higher purpose. The construction of dwelling place, it is known even to the birds and the beasts. The mouse also knows how to live within the earth. They make a hole. According to their capacity, they make there. The birds also, they make their nest also, to live comfortably. So this intelligence there.

Dhanañjaya: Also the ants.

Prabhupāda: Ants also. Everyone knows. God has given that intelligence. Everyone knows how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex life and how to defend. Everyone knows, according to their . . . but everyone except the human being does not know what is self-realization. That is only prerogative of the human being. So if they are not utilizing his intelligence for that purpose, he is simply wasting time, śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8), simply laboring for nothing.

Haihaya: Here in Italy the majority of people is Communism. The majority of young people is Communism.

Prabhupāda: What ism you manufacture it doesn't matter. We have to see whether you are understanding the value of life. Our point is that. We don't mind whether you are Communist, capitalist, this ist, that ist, that . . . we want to see whether you are utilizing your human intelligence for right purpose. We don't condemn anyone. If the Communists, they are also making the same plan as the capitalist, then what is the use of this Communism? The same thing. It may be useful for the temporary purpose, for the rascals, but it is the same quality.

Italian devotee: Gratification. Sense gratification.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Haihaya: But they say that first we must deposit the same right. The distribution must be equal for everyone—sleeping, eating . . .

Prabhupāda: That you cannot do. Why don't you see? Why don't you make up others who are already suffering? What you are doing for them? They do not like to take it. Even your proposal, "You come, live in a nice house," they will not take it. Then? What you will do? You are making arrangement for good purposes, for good standard of living, but others, they will not accept your proposal. I have given the example, hippies. Let the Communists come and ask them, "Why you are living in this way? Come on. We shall give you." Why Communists? Their government is offering, "Why you are lying on the street? Come on. Live in a nice house." They will not accept it. What you will do, that?

Nitāi: That is just like the example you gave the other day about the man sitting under the tree. Someone comes up to him and says: "Come, work hard. You will enjoy." The hippies, their only business is trying to enjoy. They are just absorbed in sense gratification.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. The hippies' philosophy is that, "After all, we have to enjoy sense. So we are getting free, freedom. We can have sense enjoyment, sex life on the street. Why shall I work for the same purpose? We have already got it. You civilized man, you so-called civilized, advanced civilized man, for your sex life you have to go to the skyscraper building, and we can do it on the street, on the park. We have got better facilities. Why shall I accept your philosophy?" They will say. They say like that. (break) . . . agree to the fact that they have no knowledge. Everything they are doing whimsically, without any purpose. (break) . . . from their side. You have to find out, make research.

Satsvarūpa: I know the Communists are very much agitated by our activities, the young people that Haihaya is talking about. They say that we are working for the old order by our simply chanting.

Dhanañjaya: Hmm. Śrīla Prabhupāda, we have to go back. I don't know why, but this part here is all closed in. (break)

Haihaya: . . . even one brahmacārī in Argentina. Because they didn't like us very much . . . (indistinct) . . . they think that we are like the religion, that we want to alienate the people.

Satsvarūpa: But we will take people's minds off the fact that they should be fighting for economic rights. We say: "That's not so important. You should become God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious." And then the people . . . just like Marx said: "Religion is the opium of the people." They think we're just pacifying people, when actually everyone should be becoming agitated for equal rights. So when they see us . . .

Prabhupāda: So where is equal rights? Even in Russia there is managerial class and laborer class. Where are equal rights? Why there are managers? Yes. I have seen it: the managerial class and the laborer class. So where is equality? Why the managerial class? You know that? There must be required. The old women, they are sweeping the street. Why not Mr. Lenin come and sweep the street? Why he is sitting in a big palace and the poor woman has been engaged to sweep the street? Where is equality? What advancement they have made? We are following opiate; they are following opiate, Lenin's rascal's philosophy. That's all. That is also opiate. But where is equality? That is also opiate. You are advocating equality, but where there is a man manager and actual man, another man is working. So why you are accepting this nonsense philosophy being opiated by rascal Lenin?

Haihaya: They measure everything by the type of work. They think that . . .

Prabhupāda: It doesn't matter. If I become manager, I will pay for that. Suppose there is work as a . . . would you like to work sweep the street or become manager? What shall I say? "No, no, I shall become manager." Why this mentality? Why he does not accept, "Yes, I shall sweep"?

Haihaya: Yes, but the point is that equal right is give the . . .

Prabhupāda: Where is equal right?

Haihaya: . . . the same possibilities of education to everyone.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Where is equal right? That is also with the capitalists also. The same thing: we divide. We divide that, "This is brāhmaṇa, this is kṣatriya, this is vaiśya, this is śūdra." We also divide, and you also divide. Then where is the advancement in philosophy?

Haihaya: Because they think that capitalists, they don't give the same possibilities to earn . . .

Prabhupāda: They think, but we see practically, why there is difference between this manager and the laborer class? Will the dictator, the manager, will take the same salary as the sweeper is taking? Why there is difference? Why the manager is given more preference for living condition? Where is equality? First of all show me. Simply talking will not do.

Dhanañjaya: Actually, the only difference is that in the Communist countries, religion is not allowed.

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. But their philosophy that everyone is equal . . . where is equality? There is no equality. Why you are talking nonsense? And in Moscow I have seen, so many people are walking, and others are going on motorcar. Why? Why this difference? Why not everyone motorcar? Then what improvement you have made? You are simply talking. Why this difference? Nobody wants to walk. Why thousands of people walking on the street, and some of them are going on motorcar? Why? Where is the equality?

Haihaya: Śrīla Prabhupāda, they said that equality came by . . . no, it's not equal, but they must give the same possibilities to everyone.

Prabhupāda: Oh. So that everyone is giving. We also give, "Never mind you are śūdra. You become brahmin. Come on. Be Kṛṣṇa conscious." That we also are giving. We don't deny, "Oh, you are śūdra, you cannot become a brahmin." We don't say that. He can also become brahmin. "Come on. You learn how to become brahmin." That's all. That . . . the point is this equality there cannot be. First point is this. This is nonsense. But everyone should be given the chance to become . . . to occupy the best position. That is in our philosophy also. But unequality there must remain. You cannot make equality. It is not possible. That is nonsense. In your country there is no equality. Why an old man (woman)—I have seen it—she is sweeping the street? So old woman, she should have taken rest, but she is engaged for sweeping the street. And a young man, he is becoming dictator. Where is the equality? She should have given rest, but she is obliged to work. And another young man, he is a manager. Why? Why this inequality? Where is equality? First of all settle up how you can make equal. That you cannot do. Then you are talking nonsense, "equality." It is not possible.

Haihaya: We are a spirit soul. That is equality.

Prabhupāda: That is equality. That is the position of equality.

Nitāi: But as far as these bodies go, there is no equality.

Prabhupāda: There cannot be. How a man and woman can be equal? The woman has to give birth, she has to become pregnant. Why the man cannot be pregnant? Why? Why this inequality? To take care of the child, to become pregnant, so much responsibility, the man does not take, especially in this country. He impregnates one girl, and he goes away. And all the responsibility is for the girl. Therefore he (she) wants to get rid of it. He (she) takes the course of abortion, kill it. This is the psychology. Where is equality? You put her into inconvenient position, and she commits another sin. She is obliged. Where is equality? And you go away. So this rascaldom philosophy may go on. We have got answer for all the rascals. They are all rascals.

Haihaya: The Communists, they kicked us from the university in Mexico, because we were always defeat there in the philosophy. It is very easy to defeat Communists with our . . . with this philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We have to do. There may be opposition, but what can be done? We have to speak the resu . . . that, "There cannot be equality, sir. You are talking nonsense." Challenge them, and let them prove that "Here is equality." Where is equality? Where is equality? You are, human being, you are trying to live very comfortably. Why don't you make comfortable life for other living entities? Why you are sending them to the slaughterhouse? Where is equality?

Haihaya: If we have a world day every month, fasting world day . . . if we can fast, all the world can fast, all inhabitants of the world . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, you cannot expect that the whole world will become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is not possible. You keep your standard. Don't be bewildered by these rascals. That is our proposal. We should not be misled by this rascal philosophy. We shall stick to our own philosophy. That is required. Because we know all their philosophy are defective. That is not perfect. So why shall I be misled by their philosophy? We shall stick to our own principle, Kṛṣṇa philosophy. That's all. Everyone should stick to the right philosophy. That is human sense. Not be biased and carried away by some whimsical way.

Satsvarūpa: Their philosophy is very appealing, because they begin, they say . . .

Prabhupāda: That is because people are fools, rascals. Therefore it is very . . .

Satsvarūpa: They say: "Look, all these people are starving and these people have all the money. Let us make it equal." And the people become slave . . .

Prabhupāda: But that is not being done. Therefore I said . . . I go to their country. "Why in your country there is inequality? Why in your country?" That was my point. "Why you have made a class of men as manager and a class of men as worker?" Nobody wants to be worker.

Satsvarūpa: Everyone knows that Russia is just like the US almost.

Prabhupāda: (loud siren) What is that?

Dhanañjaya: That's ambulance.

Nitāi: So when they talk with the peasants, they are convincing.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Nitāi: When they talk with the peasants in the villages they are convincing, because the peasants don't know anything.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Nitāi: They cannot face anybody who knows something.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. They make this propaganda. They take bread to the peasants, and the peasants go to the church and ask: "O God, give us our daily bread." Then they ask: "Has God given you bread?" So they say: "No, sir." "You ask us." "Oh, Mr. Communist, give me bread." "Ah, take as much . . . who is better?" "You are better." They'll say like that. But they have no sense that wherefrom this rascal has brought this bread. If God had . . . would not have given the wheat, wherefrom he would make the bread? But that, they have no sense. This is going on. If they had sense, they would immediately reply, "You are not giving the bread. God has given this bread." Because he prepared bread from the wheat. And wheat has been given by God. "You cannot prepare food; therefore God has given."

Haihaya: Actually, they ask to God and they get it.

Prabhupāda: Actually, God is giving us bread, not this Communist Party. That's a fact. But they have no intelligence to reply these rascals. That's all. Therefore these isms, so-called isms, is good for the rascals, not for the intelligent man. Intelligent man will immediately ask: "Where is your equality?" And they cannot reply. (break)

Satsvarūpa: . . . also based on karma, that one man is meant to have more than another . . .

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Satsvarūpa: Is it also based on our karma, that one man should have more than another of material things? Is that an argument against . . .?

Prabhupāda: Is there any difficulty to understand? As soon as you say you become manager, that means his karma is better. Where is the difficulty to understand it? Why you appoint one man manager and one man as worker? His capacity of karma is better. So where is the difficulty to understand? Better karma, better reward. It is going on.

Haihaya: The Communists asked to us what we do for the starving people.

Prabhupāda: Rascal, what you have done? You are simply talking. What you have done? There are so many starving people all over the world. What you have done? "Starving people." I have seen. They cannot give starving people. Just like we went to Russia. So we wanted rice. There is no rice. There was no good rice. We wanted fruit. There was no fruit. So what you have done? I am starving for fruit and rice. You cannot supply me. That is practical. I have seen it. They will offer, "Take this beef instead of fruit." Then I will starve. So what he has done for me? I am starving. I cannot take beef. I want rice, but you cannot supply me. That I have seen. One Madrasi gentleman was bringing rice for me. It could not be purchased in the market. There is no fruit. So if I want fruit and rice, and if you give me beef, it is as good as if I want bread, if you give me stone.

So where is the capacity to satisfy the starving? I am starving for rice. You cannot give me. Why do you propose like that, that you can satisfy the starving man? You cannot do that. You are talking nonsense. Can you satisfy everyone? Somebody is starving for knowledge. So how you can . . . this bluff will not satisfy him. So where is the question of starving, satisfying the starving? It is not possible. Unless he is satisfied, nobody can satisfy others. That satisfaction is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, "I am fully satisfied. I don't want." Where is the satisfaction? You cannot satisfy everyone. That is not possible. In Russia, there are so many unsatisfied people, so many millions. Where they are satisfied? If you think that, "You must eat what I give you," that is not my satisfaction. That is your satisfaction. So where is the question of satisfying the starving? How it is possible? You cannot force me to do something and say: "Be satisfied." That is not possible. If you satisfy me as I want, then you can satisfy me. Do they . . . are they able to do this? Then what is the question of . . .?

Dhanañjaya: If they are not satisfied, then they must do things underground, under cover.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is going on. There are some philosopher, he has written book—he has got Nobel Prize—that, "This Russian government, simply terrorism." He has written a book. He is a famous man. He got Nobel Prize. He has said that, "This is simply terrorism. A set-up, a group of men, simply under terrorism they are governing."

Dhanañjaya: Solzhenitsyn?

Prabhupāda: I think so. Yes. So where is the satisfaction? He wants something. That is . . . that is not possible. When there is full knowledge, one can be satisfied on knowledge, not by this artificial means. That is not possible. So actually the whole world is suffering for want of knowledge. So we are giving that knowledge. We are satisfying everyone. We are giving the knowledge.

Haihaya: And we are feeding, too.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Well, that is secondary. That is secondary.

Dhanañjaya: But their philosophy is first you feed them, then give them knowledge.

Prabhupāda: But why . . .? You cannot feed even. Just like I wanted rice, I wanted fruit. You could not give me. So why do you claim that you can feed everyone? That you cannot. You are falsely claiming. If you think that simply supplying meat, everyone will be satisfied, that is your nonsense.

Haihaya: Yes, they give. But they say you must prostitute for it. You must prostitute for this food which we give you.

Prabhupāda: So is that very good proposal?

Haihaya: It's the worst thing that one can propose. It's just to push man to degenerate himself because of this food, little food.

Prabhupāda: It is my practical experience. Śyāmasundara had to waste at least two to three hours to secure rice, fruits. Only milk and butter could we get. And then we had to wait in the . . . they would not allow us to cook unless they had finished. This was the difficulty. Practically I have suffered. All their claims are bogus. The people are not happy there. The young men are not allowed to go outside the country. Just see. All freedom lost. All freedom lost. It is a government of terrorism, that's all. And whatever the Communists do, simply by terrorizing, that's all. They have no gentleman's method. Terrorizing. (break) . . . misleading other rascals that, "You come this way; you will be happy." And the rascals are being misled. They are accepted. This is going on. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). The blind man is asking other blind men, "Come on, I shall cross you the street." But because he is rascal, he does not ask: "Sir, you are also blind. How will you lead us?" They cannot inquire. Or he does not know that, "This man who is asking me, who is willing to take the leadership, he is also blind." This blind man does not know, do not know. This is going on.

Dhanañjaya: Just like I read in Time magazine a few weeks ago that Russia has a big problem with alcohol, because so many people are drinking vodka. So because of detente there is easier relationships between America and Russia, and now America is shipping over a Pepsi-Cola company. This is a soft drink company. They are going to build a big factory near Moscow. And so Brezhnev said: "Well, I hope that people will now take to soft drinking, and this will ease our alcoholic problem in Russia."

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Dhanañjaya: They cannot solve their problem of alcohol consumption, and they are thinking that, "If we import from America a soft drink factory to produce lemonade, orange, Coca-Cola and so on, this will solve the problem."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is creating problem. What is this. Innocent?

Dhanañjaya: Innocenti. This is the name of a car. It's the name of a car. Actually, it's an "i" at the end. Innocenti. (end)