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731212 - Morning Walk - Los Angeles
Prabhupāda: ...two classes of men: the Communist and the non-Communist. Not exactly Communist and Capitalist, but Communist and non-Communist. Out of these two, the Communist are going to be powerful. This is the world tendency. So if the world becomes full of Communists, then the human civilization will be finished. All rogues and rascals, that's all. The American government wants to check this tendency. But they cannot check it if they remain so-called "Trust in God." That will not be possible.
So according to our proposition... Not only now; it is forever. Two classes of men are there: sura and asura. Surāsura. Viṣṇu-bhakto bhaved devaḥ. Deva and sura, the same thing. Āsuras tad-viparyayaḥ (Padma Purāṇa): and the asura, or the demons, godless. So if the Americans remain godless in the name of so-called trust in God, they will not be able to check this communistic movement. They will not be able.
Now, if they are serious to check this communistic movement, save the American country, as well as the whole world, then they must be very serious to understand what is God and what is trust in God. Otherwise this communistic movement will finish the civilized human society. So you are thoughtful. They must be very serious about it. And this is the only movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which can make all people actually trust in God and explain what is meant by God. Demons, they... If the Communists are demons and the Capitalists are also demon, fighting between demons, there will be war and loss of life, but nobody will come out victorious. And that is going on. There is occasional world war, but the situation of the world remains the same. No party has become able to change the situation of the world. What do you think, Karandhara?
Karandhara: No, no significant change.
Prabhupāda: Simply they fight, and loss of life and money, energy. War must be for the good. If there is some war, it must be for some good. But where is that goodness? The world remains the same; rather, it becomes more worst. Then why fight? But they will fight. Because both of them demons, they will fight. But not for any good result. War means... War is not bad. Just like disease. If somebody is diseased, then he becomes healthy. The whole polluted situation of the body becomes repaired. Just like when you get a boil or dysentery, all the poisons of the body, they becomes purged out. Then your health becomes nice. That is the law, nature's law. Similarly, war or famine or pestilence, they are meant for purging out all undesirable men. But the demonic principle is so strong that it is not becoming so. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Make this approach. The Americans have placed in their Constitution, "In God We Trust." It should be done very scientifically and philosophically, what is God and what is that trust, not a vague idea. Vague ideas will not help. They will not be able to conquer over the atheistic world. Actually, if there is organized party who believe in God factually, then this demon class of men will always be vanquished. Yes. Just like there was war between the surāsura, demigods and the asuras. God, Viṣṇu, took side of the demigods and came out victorious. But if both of them are demons, why Viṣṇu will take side of any one of them? "You fight and go to hell." That is going on. (japa) (break)
Umāpati: ...I think that we were discussing the political possibilities of putting devotees into office, and we came up with the astounding discovery that we almost represent everything that is against Western values. We represent austerity. We represent God consciousness. We represent restriction of sexual freedom, intoxication. All the four regulative principles are almost totally in opposite to Western desires.
Prabhupāda: That means Western people are all demons.
Umāpati: So the problem is trying to get into office under those circumstances.
Umāpati: The problem is trying to get into office under those circumstances, to make that known that "We stand for this," and to have anybody vote for you.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Nobody may vote, but we must go on preaching. That I have already explained, some of the university. The whole country is illiterate. Does this mean university should be stopped? University must be there. One who is fortunate will come and take education. It is not an argument that "People are illiterate. They don't care for it. Therefore let the university be closed." This is no argument.
Yaśomatīnandana: Gradually they will develop attraction.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We have to work. That is preaching. You don't think preaching is so easy going—eating, sleeping, and sometimes chanting "Haribol," that's all. (laughs) That is not preaching. We must be ready to implant Kṛṣṇa consciousness ideas throughout the whole world.
Umāpati: That probably won't happen overnight, though.
Prabhupāda: The Deity worship program is meant for us to keep us safe. If we neglect Deity worship, we shall also fall. But that is not the all duty finished. Arcāyām eva haraye yaḥ pūjāṁ śraddhayehate (SB 11.2.47). Arcā means Deity. If anyone is worshiping the Deity very nicely, but na tad-bhakteṣu cānyeṣu, but he does not know anything more—who is devotee, who is nondevotee, what is the duty to the world—sa bhaktaḥ prākṛtaḥ smṛtaḥ, he is material devotee. He is material devotee. So we have to take the responsibility to understand who is actually a pure devotee and what is our duty to the people in general, and then you make advancement.
Then you become madhyama-adhikārī, madhyama-adhikārī, advanced devotee. Just like these people, either in India or here, they remain simply Churchianity, going to the church without any understanding. Therefore it is failing. It is now... Churches are being closed. Similarly, if you do not keep yourself fit to preach, then your temples will all be closed in due course of time. Without preaching, you'll not feel enthused to continue the temple worship. And without temple worship, you cannot keep yourself pure and clean. The two things must go on, parallel. Then there is success. In modern time, either Hindus, Muslim or Christian, because in these places there is no teaching of philosophy, therefore they are closing, either mosque or temple or church. They will close.
Prajāpati: They can show no good result for their activities.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is preaching. Therefore we are writing so many books. Unless we take care of the books and preach and read ourself, understand the philosophy, this Hare Kṛṣṇa will be finished within few years. Because there will be no life. How long one can artificially go on, "Hare Kṛṣṇa! Haribol!" That will be artificial. No life.
Yaśomatīnandana: That's right, Prabhupāda. We are so foolish, we never realize anything you tell us like that. Without the preaching...
Prabhupāda: Without preaching, without understanding philosophy, you cannot keep your strength. Everyone should be thoroughly well conversed with the philosophy which we are putting... That means you must read thoroughly every day. So many books we have got. And Bhāgavata is so perfect that any verse you read, you get a new enlightenment. It is so nice. Either Bhagavad-gītā or Bhāgavata. But it is not ordinary writing.
Umāpati: I have tried to put your Bhagavad-gītā into some schools, and they say, "Well," some of them, if they do have a Bhagavad-gītā, they say, "Well, we have a Bhagavad-gītā." I say, "This is an entirely different understanding of the Bhagavad-gītā," and they say, "Well, it's just somebody else's opinion, and we don't have that much interest in a variety of opinions on the same book."
Prabhupāda: It is not the opinion. We are placing the..., as it is, without opinion.
Umāpati: Well. Those are those terms. It is very difficult to overcome those...
Prabhupāda: So preaching is always difficult. That I have repeatedly saying. You cannot take preaching very easy-going. Preaching must be fight. Do you mean to say fighting is easy thing? Fighting is not easy thing. Whenever there is fight, there is danger, there is responsibility. So preaching means... What is the preaching? Because people are ignorant, we have to enlighten them. That is preaching.
Nara-nārāyaṇa: When you came to the Western world, no one anywhere believed that it would be successful, I think. But actually it has become very successful, by preaching.
Prabhupāda: I myself did not believe I shall be successful, (laughs) what to speak of others. But because I did in the proper line, so it has become successful.
Yaśomatīnandana: Yes, Kṛṣṇa is so kind that we expect something and He gives us hundred times more.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Yaśomatīnandana: So if we simply follow your instruction, then I am sure that it will come out glorious.
Nara-nārāyaṇa: So if we are in the proper line, then our political activities also can become successful?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Why not? Kṛṣṇa was in politics. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness means all-round: social, political, philosophical, religious, cultural—everything. It is not one-sided. They take it as... They do not know. Therefore they are thinking it is a religious movement. No, it is all-including. All-including, all-pervasive.
Umāpati: Well, they have incorporated a particular philosophy into the Constitution requiring separation of Church and State, what they call separation of Church and State in this country.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is... We have already separated. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. That is already separated.
Umāpati: So there are certain restrictions about religious organizations entering politics.
Umāpati: There are certain restrictions about religious organizations entering politics.
Prabhupāda: So what does it mean? Christians, they do not take part in politics?
Umāpati: Well, they can't do it as...
Karandhara: Not the churches.
Prabhupāda: No, not the churches. Our gṛhasthas will take part. The sannyāsīs will give advice. Directly the gṛhasthas will fight. Gṛhastha... Not gṛhastha. There should be an administrative class. That is... Now it is prescribed in the Bhagavad-gītā, there should be four classes: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Now, it is spoken by God. Therefore it should be rejected? Does it mean? God is for everything. What is this nonsense? And Kṛṣṇa acted as kṣatriya. Therefore He should not be God? Is that very good argument? God is all-inclusive. And religion means God's word, carrying out God's word. That is religion. So how you can make separate?
Karandhara: Well, you can't, but they do.
Prabhupāda: They do everything, but they are demons. They do mental concoction.
Karandhara: Basically, they want to (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Why these politician says, "In God we believe, we trust"? Why this nonsense?
Umāpati: Well, they fear theocracy. They fear being ruled by a priestly class. That is a very old fear in the West.
Prabhupāda: No, no, that's all right. But if the politicians, administration, trust in God, that becomes religious. How they separate? Currency note is economic problem. So how they are mixing with God? They are contradictory. You cannot separate God from any field of activities. And religion..., they do not know what is the meaning of religion. Our definition of religion is to abide by the order of God. So does it mean the politicians, they do not abide by the orders of God? Then why do they write, "In God We Trust"?
Karandhara: Well before, traditionally...
Prabhupāda: Not before or now. What we are speaking on the actual fact, that how they are writing, "In God We Trust"? As soon as you bring in God, that is religion. That is general meaning. So...
Karandhara: There is a movement to take that off the money.
Prabhupāda: Eh? Therefore we have to start this movement seriously, not to take that. You cannot change it. Then you become demons. Therefore I am warning you that before they, these rascals, change, you take the advantage of it, that "You cannot change. Then you become demons, you are animals. If you withdraw your trust from God, then you are animals. So we are not going to be governed by the animals."
Nara-nārāyaṇa: Oh, phew!
Prabhupāda: So that should be the people's voice. Educate people to become Kṛṣṇa conscious and they will yell, "No, we are not going to be governed by the animals. We want real men." That should be your demand. Therefore I am warning you, that before they do that, you become strong, so that they cannot do it. Rather, they may understand, "Yes, what we are speaking is all right." That is preaching.
Nara-nārāyaṇa: Actually, when they formed the country and made the Constitution, the concept was they were..., basically they believed in God, but they were afraid that some religion would become politically powerful and disturb the gov...
Prabhupāda: So what does...? But that means they do not understand what is meant by religion. They are thinking religion means some fanatical faith. They are meaning that. That is the whole world conception of religion. But actual religion we are now preaching.
Nara-nārāyaṇa: Jaya. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Actual, what is religion. Religion means... Just like Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66): "Give up all rascal religion. Surrender unto Me." So who is a sane man who will deny, "No, I don't surrender to God"? Who is a sane man? He must be insane. Anyone who says that "I don't like God. I don't like to surrender unto Him," then he must be insane. He has already surrendered. He is going on under the condition of surrender, but it is not done very... Just like a prisoner: he is already surrendered to the government; still, he says, "I don't care for government."
This is the position. He's a madman. The state arrests him, kicks him, and puts him in the jail. Still, he says, "I don't care for government." So what can be done? "We don't care for the government." Just like Gandhi started civil disobedience movement, disobedience to the government laws, but all the whole stock was put into jail and they were beaten with shoes. But still, they said, "No, we are..." This is an example. Similarly, everyone is obeying, surrendering to God. But because they are rascal and fools, they are denying that we have surrendered. This is their position: madness. Nobody can stay without surrendering to God. It is not possible.
Umāpati: Well, in a madhouse, a sane man is the only one considered mad.
Yaśomatīnandana: But that sane man, if he is powerful, he can change the...
Prabhupāda: So, "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." That is already there. So we have to act by the order of Kṛṣṇa, not by the votes of the madmen. Just see the fun. Everyone is under control. Who is free? It is simply illusion. They are thinking, "I am free." Nobody is free. Under the stringent laws of nature, and still, he is thinking, "I don't care for God." This is madness. This is madness. Already under the laws of God, but still, he's protesting, "No, I don't care for God. There is no God." So we have to save these madmen from further deterioration. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Umāpati: Can a living entity ever lose his existence?
Prabhupāda: What you have studied in the Bhagavad-gītā?
Umāpati: Well, I have never seen that it's possible.
Umāpati: I have never seen where that's possible.
Prabhupāda: No, what is your understanding from Bhagavad-gītā?
Umāpati: That we are eternal, that we have always been and always will be.
Prabhupāda: Yes, then how you can think of it? Why do you question this?
Umāpati: Well, because God's inconceivable. I just... (laughs)
Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. He is eternal. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). He is accepting the different types of bodies, but he is eternal. One body finished; that does not mean he is finished. He is transferred to another body according to his desire. He is never finished. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20).
Yaśomatīnandana: Avināśi tu tad viddhi (BG 2.17).
Prabhupāda: Ah, avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idam. (japa) (break) ...is correct. We can face any so-called philosopher. Any. Any so-called scientist. Any so-called politicians. You must be strong enough to have your firm conviction that "We can face anyone rascal and defeat him." (break) ...and logic, argumentum baculum. You know that? In logic there is a thesis, or argumentum baculum. Means no argument, but with stick and gun. You see? "If you don't believe, then here is stick and gun." That is called argumentum baculum. So we have to make our position so strong that anyone who does not believe in God, he should be finished.
Umāpati: We had a president that used to believe in that. He is finished.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, but don't think like that. But there are two kinds of business, paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8): to give protection to the devotees and killing the unbeliever. These are stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. (break) Yes. Government has got two departments: law and order department, military department. Why? Two things must...
(break) This is their business, śūdra business. Śūdra business. Śūdras, they have no knowledge. They commit mistake over and over. Therefore brāhmaṇa required to guide the kṣatriya, the vaiśya and the śūdra. Therefore they are guru. Otherwise, they will commit mistake, more or less. It is practical. Just in your country, you have all elected Mr. Nixon as president, and again you are protesting. Why you are protesting? You have already elected him. What is the reasons?
Karandhara: Well, he's a rascal.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) That's all. This kind of election is rascal election. It has no meaning. Therefore the public must know whom to elect and how to elect. That should be our propaganda. Because nowadays it is democratic government, teach people how to select the real leader. Real leader means who does not commit mistake, who is not illusioned, who does not cheat and who has no imperfect senses, who has, or, other words, one who has got perfect senses.
So if you say, "How it is possible for the conditioned soul?" "Yes, it is possible if you follow the perfect." Just like we are doing. We are following Kṛṣṇa. He does not commit mistake, He is not illusioned, His senses are not imperfect and He does not cheat. We are following. Therefore, although we are imperfect, because we are following the perfect, our proposition is perfect. A child may be illiterate, but when he's taught, "Write A like this," and he follows that, he becomes literate. This is the policy.
Nara-nārāyaṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, many years ago you once gave the example that when the master craftsman is working and he has got an apprentice, when the apprentice works, it is also considered the same quality, because he is under the direction of the master.
Prabhupāda: Yes. If you are under direction of a perfect teacher, then your conclusion is perfect. The difficulty is that we are following imperfect teachers, blind men. And what is the benefit of following a blind man? If the man is himself a blind man and if he follows another blind man, what benefit he will get? Both of them will fall into the ditch. That is going on. Just like this rascal Guruji Maharaja. He is a rascal, and he is preparing so many rascals. And there are so many others, they are doing the same mischief, and there is no control by the government. The government is rascal. Government does not know who is real, who is imitation. Otherwise they should have checked immediately. But they do not check. They do not know.
Prajāpati: In the Constitution is written in religious freedom. You should let... Anyone who wants to practice anything, it's all right in the Constitution.
Prabhupāda: Religious freedom means everyone is rascal and every religion is rascaldom. So how they can check? They cannot check. "Let it be. Go on."
Karandhara: It also says that has restrictions. Religious practices which harm people or are detrimental to the public good, they are checked.
Prabhupāda: So... Now here, why do they not check? A rascal, cheater, and he is presenting himself as God, and why the government is allowing it? Rather, we should bring a case that why government, against the Constitution, is allowing this rascal that he is declaring that he is God? What qualification he has got? Let it be decided in the court. We should do that.
Svarūpa: We have to make definition of religion.
Prabhupāda: That we shall go..., give in the court. First of all, "This man is declaring himself as God, cheating. Why he should not be stopped?" Let there be case. This should be done.
Yaśomatīnandana: Just like Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No. If the Constitution is that, that in the name of religion somebody cheats, the government should take action, so here it is being done.
Yaśomatīnandana: Fraud. Fraud.
Prabhupāda: So we have to maintain so many departments to fight with these wrongdoers. Why not make a test case, that "This man is declaring himself God. How he is God? Let him prove in the court." Why not institute a case?
Umāpati: Actually, the people feel helpless.
Umāpati: The people here feel helpless. They feel there is nothing they can do anyway, about anything. That's why they are engaging so much in intoxication. They feel hopeless under this government.
Prabhupāda: That is the defect, that the government itself is imperfect. How they can check?
Umāpati: Well, they're so foolish. There was an article in the paper the other day about this shot going to Jupiter, and the scientists were described..., the scientists that everybody is supposed to depend upon, they were described as biting their fingernails in the hopes that everything would come out all right.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Umāpati: These scientists.
Yaśomatīnandana: They said that they were simply taking chances that it might come out all right. They were not sure themselves.
Prabhupāda: That everyone is taking chance. A poor man is taking chance to become rich man. So what is the difference between the poor man taking chance and the scientist? (break)
Yaśomatīnandana: ...world fits into all the characteristics that are described in "Divine and Demoniac Natures." This modern world fits into all the demoniac qualities.
Prabhupāda: Yes, because they are godless. Whole modern world is godless. They don't think of God very seriously. Everyone. They have described it as "opiate," what is that?
Karandhara: "Opium of the people."
Prabhupāda: Yes. They think, "Those who are religious, they are simply wasting their time." Therefore Communist country, they are completely against religion. They cannot allow their people to waste their time. That is their philosophy. This is the condition of the world.
Karandhara: Because the monarchs of the past days, they used religion to suppress the people so severely in Russia that...
Prabhupāda: Well, something wrong was done; therefore everything is wrong. If somebody, he might have seen some counterfeit coin, does that mean the whole currency is counterfeit? You cannot say like that.
Nara-nārāyaṇa: The śūdra mentality does not know how to correct the situation. They try to make liberty for themselves without instituting real religion again. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...this idea also. Now there should be examination whether so-called brāhmaṇas, they are actually following the brāhmaṇa regulative principle and chanting the mantra regularly. Otherwise they should be converted again śūdra. If we become safe simply by having a thread and do not do properly, then what is this? This should be examined. Every individual should be asked, "Now chant this Gāyatrī-mantra." He must. Are they doing properly?
Prabhupāda: Then it is all right. Otherwise, simply by name, so-called sacred thread holder will not do. Then again the same brahminical class as in India. (break) ...Paraśurāma. You know Paraśurāma? Paraśurāma?
Karandhara: The incarnation?
Prabhupāda: Ah. Because the kṣatriyas were not doing exactly, he twenty-one times massacred them. "Finish!" And those who, kṣatriyas, fled from India, they came to Europe. So the European means they are coming from the kṣatriya descendant, but they have forgotten their own culture. Indo-āryan. (break) ...is strong, then there is no doubt he will be able to control all over the world. That's a fact. But we must keep ourself spiritually strong. Āpani ācari prabhu jīve śikhāilā (from Cc. Madhya 1.22). Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was behaving in His life, and that He was teaching. (break) ...behave like spiritual man.
Then you can teach. If you don't behave, then how you can teach? (break) ...was brought here. (laughs) It is more important than the Ganges. (break) One side, there is unrestricted sex life, and other side, stop population. But they cannot take this restricted sex life. Only fall. So if you restrict your sex life that "I shall not beget more than one child or two child," then where is the question of this abortion and contra...? But they, that they cannot. They will have unrestricted sex life; at the same time, they will check overpopulation.
Prajāpati: They trust the doctors, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the medical men.
Prabhupāda: Whatever... His fault is that "I can restrict. I will not have sex life unless it is needed for begetting children."
Prajāpati: These psychologists, they say it is unhealthy to go without sex life. The men these people trust, the psychologists, psychiatrists, say it is unhealthy.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also, we know. But there is a process. Just like brahmacārī process is there, sannyāsī process is there. So if you adopt the process, you can restrict. (break)
Prajāpati: ...Śrīla Prabhupāda, that it was published in a nationwide magazine. They showed that where people's trust was. They weren't trusting anything very much, but they trusted the medical people number one, and organized religion as such was way, way down, number eight or so. Why are people trusting the doctors so much?
Prabhupāda: Because they are under this impression the doctors are scientifically advanced. But the doctors' science is also imperfect. Because they do not know what is the soul. They do not believe in soul.
Karandhara: They trust the doctors the first, and they trust television the second.
Prabhupāda: Television. (laughs scathingly)
Karandhara: Whatever they see on television, they accept.
Prabhupāda: Why they give so much authority to television?
Karandhara: Well, everyone watches it, so they just become indoctrinated.
Prajāpati: That is their altar in their home. It is in a permanent place in the center of their house, and they put flowers on top, and they worship like that.
Prabhupāda: (laughing) Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Umāpati: It's intoxication also.
Prabhupāda: After all, they accept authority. Either the doctor or the television, is it not?
Yaśomatīnandana: Now they should accept Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They cannot say that they don't want authority. They cannot say. The authority is already there.
Karandhara: Well, the common people are crying for authority, leadership.
Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to teach them how to elect leader. These are the qualification of the leaders. He must not be sinful. Then he can be. (break) ...people will find in our camp. (break)
Prajāpati: ...one philosopher atheist by the name Bertrand Russell, he tries to prove that God does not exist by saying that people who say God exists, say that God is..., everything has a cause and that the first cause is God, and Bertrand Russell says, "Well, if everything has a cause, then God also must have a cause, so that there must be no God."
Prabhupāda: If God has cause, then he is not God. That is the difference between God and everything. Everything has got cause, but God has not cause. Therefore He is God. That, the rascal, he does not know. He equalizes God and everything on the same level. Then what is the meaning of God? If He hasn't got the extraordinary qualification, then how He is God? He is everything. He does not know. Why there is distinction between God and everything? Because God is not caused by everything, but everything is caused by God. That is the difference. (break) ...is equal to God, then everything is God. That is going on, Māyāvāda philosophy. (break)
Umāpati: I just know when I close my eyes, it's dark.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...of the same quality, then what is the necessity of another God? It is a conclusion like this, that in the hospital everyone is patient, therefore doctor is also patient because he's in the hospital. In the prison house they're all prisoners; therefore the superintendent of police, he is also prisoner. Or the governor comes to see, visit; he is also prisoner. It is conclusion like that. "God" means He has got special potency that He exists without any cause. Sva-rāṭ. This word is used in Bhāgavatam, sva-rāṭ: "completely independent." Who is that Ruskell? Bernard Russell?
Yaśomatīnandana: Bertrand Russell.
Prabhupāda: He is a well-...
Yaśomatīnandana: Yeah, British philosopher. He died probably. He died long time ago?
Umāpati: He is very fashionable. He was leader of anti-war demonstrators, and he was very man-conscious, thinking that man could solve all his problems.
Prabhupāda: But he could not solve his own problems. He died. So was he a man or dog?
Yaśomatīnandana: ...philosophy. It's because this whole world is made of asses, therefore asses' philosophy is given so much importance. Donkeys.
Prajāpati: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (end)