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731208 - Morning Walk - Los Angeles

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

731208MW-LOS ANGELES - December 08, 1973 - 64:47 Minutes

Prabhupāda: They must neglect because foolish. They cannot solve. They're rascal. They cannot solve. They're simply pleased with some, what is called, temporary success. That's all. The ultimate success is not the . . . in hand. Professor Einstein, he was very big scientist, but he could not solve his death. He was to die.

Hṛdayānanda: Boy! That's amazing.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) He has to die. He could not solve his death, and he's a big scientist. What kind of scientist is that?

Hṛdayānanda: Boy!

Prabhupāda: The real problem remain, unsolved.

Hṛdayānanda: So that's his blindness.

Prabhupāda: Hah? No. That is rascaldom. They do not see the real problem. Neither they're able to solve it. They're simply happy by some . . . just like child. The child, he wants to play whole day long. He does not care. Like that. This human life is meant for making a perfect solution of all problems. That they do not care. There is some temporary benefit. They're very much busy, and known as scientist.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they'll say that is ideal. That cannot be attained.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But if it can be attained, then you do not know. Then you are foolish. You say that cannot be attained. But I say it is possible. Śāstra says, Kṛṣṇa says (break) the whole thing is discovered. Simply understand Kṛṣṇa and next life you become eternal. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Simply if you go to our temple and see Kṛṣṇa, you'll be devotee. You don't do anything. Don't talk anything. Simply see Kṛṣṇa. It is so easy. You simply see Kṛṣṇa and take Kṛṣṇa's prasādam and live comfortably, and next life you'll go to back to home, back to Godhead.

Devotees: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: So simple method.

Yaśomatīnandana: Susukhaṁ kartum avyayam (BG 9.2).

Prabhupāda: Yes. Very good. Yes. Susukhaṁ kartum avyayam. Another facility, if you cannot finish your Kṛṣṇa job, then whatever you have done, that is permanent. Next life you begin from there. Nothing is lost. Abhayam. Abhayam, permanent.

Hṛdayānanda: That's a wonderful offer by Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bali-mardana: What does it mean, "to finish"?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Bali-mardana: What does it mean, "to finish"?

Prabhupāda: Finish? Finish means fully, you do not know anything except Kṛṣṇa. That is finish.

Bali-mardana: Pure devotee.

Prabhupāda: Pure devotee, yes. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu: He had no other business than Kṛṣṇa, everything. That is the ideal perfection. (break) Śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ govinda-viraheṇa me (Śikṣāṣṭaka 7). Everything is vacant without Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection. (break) No, that determination will come automatically when you are advanced.

Hṛdayānanda: It's wonderful to hear you talk about Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is wonderful, either I talk or you talk. (laughs) He is wonderful. A sweetmeat is sweet. Either you give or I give, it is sweet. (break) . . . your scientist will try to understand that "Kṛṣṇa has given us the metal, Kṛṣṇa has given us the intelligence. Now we have prepared nice airship, and Kṛṣṇa has given us the sky to fly." Appreciate like that. Then your Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . .

Actually, that is the fact. If there was no sky, where would you fly your scientific advancement? And if there was no metal, how could you manufacture? If you had no intelligence, how could you do it? So everything is given by Kṛṣṇa, and you are denying Kṛṣṇa. How fool you are, just see. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Simply accept that "Everything is given by Kṛṣṇa. We are utilizing it." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Bali-mardana: Only when Kṛṣṇa takes it away, then they turn to Him.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bali-mardana: "Save us."

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa wants that much, that you accept that, "All facilities are given by Me." That much.

Yaśomatīnandana: Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1).

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, actually that is the fact. But that is done, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). Those who are rascals, they do it—they will have to do it—but after many, many births, not immediately. They'll suffer. They'll have to go through so many species of life, and one day they'll come to the understanding, "Yes, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti: 'Everything is Kṛṣṇa.' " Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ: "That mahātmā is very rare, very rare."

Yaśomatīnandana: When the Indians come to the temple, Prabhupāda, I tell them that mahātmā is not manufactured or rubber-stamped. Here Kṛṣṇa says what mahātmā means. I say that anybody who takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness is mahātmā.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yaśomatīnandana: And anybody who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, however great he may be in people's eyes, but he's not mahātmā.

Prabhupāda: No.

Hṛdayānanda: Durātmā.

Prabhupāda: He's a duṣkṛtina.

Hṛdayānanda: He's a demon.

Prabhupāda: Demon. Yes. Māyayāpahṛta-jñānā āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ (BG 7.15), moghāśā mogha-karmāṇaḥ (BG 9.12).

Devotee: Everything about Kṛṣṇa is so beautiful. (break)

Prabhupāda: So what is your theory?

Prajāpati: So far you've defeated . . .

Prabhupāda: Do you think that God is under theory?

Prajāpati: God has no theory, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They think so. They concoct. They make up God.

Prabhupāda: So if you make up God, then is that God? If God is subjected to your manufacturing process, so what kind of God He is?

Prajāpati: Largely they've come to realize that, so they've turned away from even discussing God. They use their theology simply to make comments about the world situation. Theology today, they do not even discuss deity.

Hṛdayānanda: Sometimes they argue that, "God has revealed Himself within my heart, so I don't need to read any books because I have a special connection with God."

Prabhupāda: But your revelation and my revelation different. Why?

Hṛdayānanda: "Well, because God has so many different aspects that He reveals a different aspect to everyone."

Prabhupāda: That is their argument.

Hṛdayānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Then what is the standard of that aspect? Just like in the material world we see, somebody richer than other. This is also aspect of material situation. So if one is millionaire, he is better than a person who has got a few coins. So similarly, your realization of God and my realization of God, different. So I may be greater realized than you. What do you say, theologian?

Prajāpati: Well, today, Prabhupāda most of the literature is written on subjects of death of God, an eclipse of God, the fact that the people in general, it's a secular society and no one is even discussing God.

Prabhupāda: That means they have failed. After discussing, when they could not find out actually what is God, they have given up the idea. Failure.

Prajāpati: They think of it as actually a maturity. "We needed to talk about God when we were infants, and now we are advanced."

Prabhupāda: So maturity, you must give what is that standard God, if it is mature. Mature means you must give the real standard. That is mature. But if nobody of you can give the what is the real standard, then how it is mature? Bali-mardana Prabhu, what do you think? Mature means the final conclusion. Just like in scientific theory, all the scientists come into conclusion, "Yes, this is the . . ."

Bali-mardana: It's just an excuse because they don't know.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes, they don't know. That's it.

Karandhara: No, they've just become mature atheists.

Prabhupāda: Mature atheists, yes.

Karandhara: Even though . . . at most they say God just means goodness or truth.

Prabhupāda: But they do not know what is that goodness. They have no knowledge what is the standard of goodness. Somebody is cutting the throat; he's also good. And somebody is very sober, he is also good. So what is the standard of goodness?

Karandhara: That's what they argue about, write books on. Mostly they make vague references and emotional pleas for goodness and honesty.

Prabhupāda: No, what is that honesty and what is that goodness? They must give some definition.

Prajāpati: You've summed it up very nicely, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when you call them just jugglers of words.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Where is scientist?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Here, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: So, what is the standard of goodness according to your scientific view?

Hṛdayānanda: They say: "Just don't . . . if someone does what he likes and doesn't hurt anyone else, that's good."

Karandhara: They don't do that.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Hṛdayānanda: "If I just do my thing for God but I don't hurt anyone, that's good."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have no definition of standard of goodness.

Hṛdayānanda: Many times they say . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. Many times they say . . . this is fact, they have no standard. But we have got definition of God. That is the difference. What is our definition?

Satsvarūpa: Supreme Controller.

Prajāpati: That person who is complete with all six opulences . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Prajāpati: . . . in total fullness.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is God.

Hṛdayānanda: Bhagavān.

Prabhupāda: Bhagavān.

aiśvaryasya samagrasya
vīryasya yaśasaḥ śriyāḥ
jñāna-vairāgyayoś caiva
ṣaḍ iti bhagavān gaṇaḥ
(Viṣṇu Purāṇa 6.5.47)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They will say that is imagination.

Prabhupāda: Why imagination? It is not imagination. Just like I am a man. I have got hundred dollars. He has got thousand dollars. He has got four thousand or five thousand. In this way we see comparative. One is richer than other, other, other. Then why there shall not be somebody who is richest of all? We see practically. How can you deny? That is God.

Power, strength—you are stronger than me, he is stronger than you, he is stronger, like that. But if we find somebody that nobody is stronger than Him, He is God. Education, beauty, all the six opulence, you compare. Because we see comparative. So there must be somebody ideal, above whom there is no more education, no more wisdom, no more riches, no more beauty. That is God.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That they are hesitant to accept.

Prabhupāda: Why they should be hesitant? That is their foolishness. We see comparative, superlative, in our experience.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say the concept of God is just imagination.

Prabhupāda: Imagination? (laughs) That is atheism. Why imagination? This is the definition of God, that in these six items—richness, beauty, wisdom, strength, influence . . . so we see, practical world, that there are superlative, comparative. So when it comes to the topmost superlative degree, that is God.

Karandhara: They have a system which they call scientific integrity, which, roughly translated, means anything that they can't perceive through their gross senses they can't accept as being a fact.

Prabhupāda: This is . . . anyone can . . . any child can accept. What is that?

Karandhara: Well, they say if there was a God, He would be perceivable to everyone, whether they believed in Him or not, He would be so obvious.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is available. This is common formula, that we see comparative study of these six opulences. When it is topmost, that is God.

Karandhara: But they say: "We cannot literally see that embodied in any one person."

Prabhupāda: No, you can see, but you have no eyes to see. Suppose there are so many richest person. We have not seen, but they must be admitted. Just like in your country, Rockefeller. So it does not mean, one has not heard about Rockefeller, therefore it does not exist.

Karandhara: But Rockefeller is constantly having to prove and assert his power.

Prabhupāda: No, prove to you, prove to me, but there are many who does not know. So that does not mean the Rockefeller is not existing. Your limited sense cannot approach. Therefore you cannot say that the thing is not existing. That is another rascaldom.

Karandhara: Well, on the other hand, they say what you can't say . . . what you can't see, you cannot say does exist . . .

Prabhupāda: No, I can't say? Why I cannot say? I am saying that this man is richer than this man; this man is richer than this man. You go on, go on, go on studying. But if you cannot study, you cannot approach, that is your inefficiency. But there is existing actually. This man is greater than this man, this man is greater than . . . that's all. But who is that highest educated, that you do not see. That does not mean He is not existing. There must be, because the step is going on. How you can deny this?

Bali-mardana: We cannot see, but someone else can see.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satsvarūpa: Kṛṣṇa says He's not manifest to the foolish.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is . . . you may not have seen something, but I have seen.

Karandhara: Well, they say that's the universal cop-out. The universal cop-out is to say that God does not reveal Himself to anyone except His devotees.

Prabhupāda: That is natural. That is natural. If a big man, he reveals to his confidential secretaries, not to everyone.

Karandhara: Just like Guru Maharaj-ji. He says you cannot understand that he is God unless you believe in him.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That he'll say: "Everyone is God." But there is comparative God. He cannot say that he is as good God as Kṛṣṇa.

Karandhara: Well, he says that. He says he is Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: No, why? You have not shown any lifting of Govardhana Hill.

Karandhara: He says you have to believe in him to see it.

Prabhupāda: Why shall I believe? You are present, you show me.

Karandhara: He said if you believe in him . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. How can I believe? You show me; then I believe.

Karandhara: Well, they say the same thing about Kṛṣṇa. They say: "Well, bring Kṛṣṇa here and show me."

Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa is not present, but you say that you are present, so you show me. Kṛṣṇa is not present, but you are present, you rascal. Show me. Then I shall believe you.

Karandhara: Well, I was just using that as a comparison to . . .

Prabhupāda: No, why comparison? Then everyone is God. I want to see that you have got the opulence of God. You are the richest . . . you are smuggling, and you are richest? You rascal, you smuggle, and you are richest? I kick on your face. (laughter) Now I challenge you. I shall kick on your face. You save yourself. You save. If you are God, you save yourself.

Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. Pauṇḍraka tried to imitate Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa killed him.

Prabhupāda: They applied that pea . . .

Satsvarūpa: Pie in his face.

Prabhupāda: Pie. That rascal could not save himself. And he's God.

Karandhara: But I was not using the comparison in that sense. The sense I was using it in . . . to a scientist, if you tell him, "You have to believe in Kṛṣṇa to realize He is God . . ."

Prabhupāda: No, no, it is not belief, it is fact. It is not . . . that we protest.

Karandhara: But the disciples of Guru Maharaj-ji say the same thing.

Prabhupāda: Why?

Karandhara: They say they've seen Guru Maharaj-ji lifting Govardhana Hill, and they've seen his universal form.

Prabhupāda: No, Govardhana Hill, when he lifted, everyone saw.

Karandhara: The scientists want to see it also to believe in Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes, so show him. Show him. But prove him. Then everybody says that . . . I have got some disciple. I can say also, "I am God. My disciples have seen it. Believe me." Say that.

Karandhara: Well, that's why they won't believe in Kṛṣṇa. They know that everyone can say that.

Yaśomatīnandana: It is accepted by the higher authorities.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yaśomatīnandana: All the great sages and saints.

Prabhupāda: Where are their higher authorities?

Satsvarūpa: They don't accept śāstra, that Kṛṣṇa lifted Govardhana Hill five thousand years ago.

Prabhupāda: No . . . like that, they do not believe the śāstra, just see.

Yaśomatīnandana: They believe in Alexander the Great and George Washington. Why don't they believe in Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's it. That is their foolishness. Nobody has seen George Washington.

Karandhara: No. Believing in George Washington is not the same thing. He's not God.

Prabhupāda: Why not same thing? Why not same thing?

Karandhara: George Washington is still a mundane figure, imperfect.

Yaśomatīnandana: . . . (indistinct)

Karandhara: Yes. But that's not the point. The point is . . .

Prabhupāda: Well, mundane figure, because you have got picture of George Washington, that's . . . we have got picture of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. You think George Washington fact because you see the picture of, that's all. So we see daily the picture, the photo, the statue.

Karandhara: Well, they may accept Kṛṣṇa as a person, but not as God.

Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa is person. Kṛṣṇa is person. God is person. That we accept. God is person. God is not imperson. God is person, that's a fact.

Bali-mardana: The demons at Kṛṣṇa's time could not even accept Him as God, what to speak of the demons now.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Karandhara: Therefore they say: "What is the platform of objectivity in determining what's God?"

Prabhupāda: This is definition. God has show in Himself, exhibited Himself. He married sixteen thousand wives. Where is that person who can marry sixteen thousand wife and expand himself in sixteen thousand bodies? Where is that person?

Karandhara: They say no such person exists.

Prabhupāda: Therefore He is there. He is God, the superexcellent.

Karandhara: They say He never did that. That's impossible.

Prabhupāda: He did it.

Yaśomatīnandana: Therefore they don't believe in Him, then.

Prabhupāda: There is a mention in the history.

Karandhara: George Washington didn't do anything which was out of the conception of belief.

Prabhupāda: No, out of conception, he had no power to do it. He had no power to do it.

Hṛdayānanda: Whose conception?

Karandhara: Their conception.

Prabhupāda: No, he had no power to do that, neither you have the power. That is the difference between you and God.

Yaśomatīnandana: In other words, "If God is like me, then I'll accept him as God, but if he's not like me, then he is not God."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is . . . means . . .

Karandhara: No, they say: "If God is absolute, then He has to be obvious to everyone." Just like the sun comes up. The sun is obvious to everyone, whether they believe in it or not.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but who is in the room, closing the room, how he can see?

Prajāpati: If they're asleep.

Prabhupāda: If somebody's sleeping, just like owl, he cannot see the sun. The sun is a fact, but the owl cannot see.

Karandhara: The owl can see if it looks at it.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but . . . therefore if you look, then you'll see.

Karandhara: Well, they think they are looking.

Prabhupāda: No, they are not looking, not in the process.

Yaśomatīnandana: And God is also obvious to them in different manifestations.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yaśomatīnandana: Birth, death, old age, disease, then trees, sun, the moon, the stars, the planets. These are also different manifestations of God.

Karandhara: No, there's no need to accept that's a God.

Yaśomatīnandana: Well, there are different manifestations of God. Just like we don't know the sun planet in its full details. We just know that there is . . .

Prabhupāda: No, the sun, here it is not fully risen. But there is some place, sun is now full-fledged. But because you are here, you cannot say: "The sun cannot be full-fledged." But that's a fact. Now in India—not India; somewhere else—the sun is now twelve o'clock, is it not?

Prajāpati: Hawaii.

Prabhupāda: Yes, there is time difference. But they are seeing, "Oh, sun is so full-fledged, so shining." You are not seeing. That is your inefficiency.

Karandhara: But they are able to experience that by their traveling.

Prabhupāda: Yes, so if you travel, you will also experience. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Then you'll also experience. We don't say that you are unable to, but if you adopt the process you'll also know.

Prajāpati: There's a large group today, Śrīla Prabhupāda, called humanists, and they have decided that this concept of God, it is not very useful. "We can solve all the problems ourselves."

Prabhupāda: Yes, just see. They are are rascals. You see, humanists, they are professing humanists and they are killing so many human being daily. You see? These are all escapism. What is called?

Hṛdayānanda: Skepticism?

Prabhupāda: No.

Karandhara: Escapism.

Prabhupāda: Scaping?

Karandhara: Escaping?

Prabhupāda: Escaping? Yes. They could not find any, I mean to say, solace, and now humanity . . . what they can do? There are so many people suffering in the human society. What they can do? Suppose they are opening hospitals. Is that guarantee for a cure of disease or no death? Then what is the humanity. You cannot do anything.

You may advertise yourself, "I have opened so many advertisement . . . er, hospitals and beds," but what you can do? Is that guarantee that there that there will be no disease and everyone will be cured, nobody will die? Then what is the humanitarianism. You cannot do anything.

Karandhara: They say: "The best use of a bad bargain."

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but that is not perfect idea. That you want to make people happy, that is humanitism, or what is that? So can you make everyone happy? Is that guarantee?

Karandhara: Well, they say life means happiness and sadness.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Then what is your meaning of the humanitism? That is going on. Without your attempt that is going on.

Karandhara: They say you can't separate . . .

Prabhupāda: No, that . . . without your attempt, somebody has become rich, just on his birth. It is due to your help? A man is born immediately millionaire. So it is not your humanity work. He has got it. And similarly, a man is immediately turned into pauper. You cannot save him. So what is the meaning of your humanitism? You cannot do anything. Vivekananda is crying . . . so many rascal, they are simply collecting money and eating themselves. Daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā. And all the daridras are lying on the street. So these are only humbug. It has no meaning. You cannot do anything.

Prajāpati: Actually they are so demoniac, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they are advocating so many birth control, and so many things, and they say this . . .

Prabhupāda: Simply rascaldom. Simply. Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisram (SB 7.5.30). They are going to the darkest region. Because they are killing, they will have to suffer. That they do not know. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). The blind man going forward will fall under the ditch. So this is their rascaldom.

Bali-mardana: Can a person who eats meat, can he obtain a human birth? Or he must be put back into animal species, meat-eaters?

Prabhupāda: No, he'll become animal, and he'll be killed.

Bali-mardana: So that means practically all the population.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That animal will become man, and he'll kill him; he'll become animal. This is karma-bandhana. Yajñārthe karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9).

Bali-mardana: They exchange places.

Prabhupāda: Yajñārthe, in the yajña, sometimes there is recommendation of animal sacrifice. Except that, you are bound up. You have to be killed.

Yaśomatīnandana: The meat-eating also leads to many other sinful activities too, right?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Yaśomatīnandana: The meat-eating leads to many other sinful activities, like . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, naturally. Meat-eating means he's demon, and demon means he'll act in so many way, demonic way, and he'll be complicated, one after another.

Yaśomatīnandana: These humanists, Prabhupāda, may try to make some . . .

Prabhupāda: This is humanism. We are trying to save the human being from falling down. This is real humanism, if there is meaning of humanity. We are trying to save everyone that, "Don't fall down. Take full advantage of this human form of life and go back to home, back to Godhead. Be happy." This is humanity. Except this, all bogus, humbug. Except this, all bogus humbug.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say that will be just perfect platform, but there's nothing like something perfect. They will explain that . . .

Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. They are trying to go to the perfect platform, but they have no idea what is that perfect. That is their foolishness. Why they are making advancement? Advancement means there must be a goal where you will reach. But you have no goal. If you do not know what is that goal, so what is the meaning of your advancement? Why you are wasting time blindly?

Karandhara: They want that perfection, but they want it with this body and its paraphernalia. They don't want to give this body up.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this body can also be perfect. But you do not know how to make it.

Prajāpati: Devotees are beginning more and more, Śrīla Prabhupāda, under your instruction, to enter into politics. But the political leaders, they will claim, "Well, you have no experience. How can you be qualified to . . .?"

Prabhupāda: No, we have got experience. If there is a good man, he'll do, he'll act very nice. That we have got experience. Just like if a man is honest, you can trust him. This is our experience. So similarly, if the leaders be good according to this standard, then the whole human society will be happy. This is our propaganda. We are not after the post, but we have to disclose this rascaldom that, "All these rascals, animal, fools, they are taking the post of leader, and you are suffering repeatedly, but you have no sense that 'How we can be happy with this Nixon and company's leadership?' " So therefore we want to disclose the fact, that's all.

We have no ambition. Just like we are brāhmaṇas. We have nothing to do, but according to Vedic civilization, the brāhmaṇas guides the kṣatriyas how to rule. So our position is to reform the politicians. We are not going to compete with them; we have no business, neither we have time. But because people are suffering—we want everyone to be happy—therefore we want to reform these rascals. That is our goal. What we shall do, taking part in politics? We have no business. But our real aim is how people will be happy. That is our real aim. So these rascals are leading, misleading. Therefore we want to check them. Is that all right? Is that all right?

Prajāpati: Will this be possible, to reform these leaders, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Well, just like I came here alone to reform, to make God conscious, but gradually it is increasing. Although I had very little hope, but still now hopeful. So let us try for it. It is not that cent percent people, but if one, two men can understand, leading men, then the whole society will be benefited. It is not that mass people will be reformed. Just like we have received one letter from one Mr. Ford, Ford family, how much he is appreciating our movement. He has paid also. So it is our duty to do. But if one, two men comes out, comes forward, then it will be successful.

Yaśomatīnandana: That Ford boy is about to become a devotee, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Yes, he'll become devotee, just like George is becoming devotee. So if somebody comes in our touch, and if he is sincere, he'll become devotee. Now this . . . I shall go this way?

Śrutakīrti: Yes.

Prajāpati: So therefore, because we're not actually trying to gain the office, there need be no compromise in our preaching. Our preaching can be strictly on the platform . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Prajāpati: . . . it always has been.

Prabhupāda: Our this attempt is for preaching, not for the post. If we get the post, it is all right. If we don't get, we are not disappointed. Just like even Kṛṣṇa—He came to preach, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). And did everybody do so, sarva-dharmān? So that you cannot expect, that your preaching . . . because it is so sublime, it is not possible. But if one or two men accept, then you are successful.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's just a form of preaching.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's just a form of preaching, so we can expose everyone.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The ideal should be there. Just like sometimes university maintains some classes, spending thousands of dollars every month, but there is no student. Does it mean the university shall close that department? No, it must go on. If anyone is fortunate, he'll take advantage. This is the process.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Among those students, thousands of students, there are only very few who come out very good in society, who follows.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Not everybody.

Prabhupāda: Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu, that is already spoken. Kṛṣṇa is speaking Bhagavad-gītā; at the same time, He says:

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu
kaścid yatati siddhaye
yatatām api siddhānāṁ
kaścin vetti māṁ tattvataḥ
(BG 7.3)

"Out of many million of person are trying to be perfect, and out of many millions of perfects, one can hardly understand Me." Then why He is speaking Bhagavad-gītā? Actually the formula is impossible. Nobody is trying for becoming perfect, and there is no perfect; then who will understand? And still, He is speaking. Still Caitanya Mahāprabhu is coming. You see? So our endeavor should be there. Our endeavor should be . . .

If one man can take it up, then there will be immense good for the human so . . . therefore I say this is the only humanitarian work. This is the only humanitarian . . . all others, bogus. They cannot become successful. They are opening hospitals, but there are many millions of person they are without any hos . . . and even if you give good medicine, good hospital, is that guarantee?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the difference is one is working on the illusory platform . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . and one is working on the absolute platform.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the difference. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt (BG 2.40). Therefore a little, if you act in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it will never be lost and it will save you from the greatest danger. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. Kartum avyayam. Susukhaṁ kartum avyayam (BG 9.2). And whatever you have done, that is your permanent asset. It will never be lost. So nowadays the theologicians do not talk of God?

Prajāpati: Not so much, no.

Prabhupāda: That means they are failure.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are interested in politics now.

Prabhupāda: Just like nowadays they are not talking of going to the moon planet. (laughs) There is no newspaper news.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have a bigger plan.

Prabhupāda: That is another bluff. Now the small plan they could not make successful, now they are thinking of bigger plan. You see?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are planning to go to Mars now.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is another bluff. Another bluff.

Karandhara: Well, they say they've done everything they want . . .

Prabhupāda: The smaller plan, they could not make successful. Now they're attempting bigger plan. Bora bora goye gala rasatala, beta gora katha jala. Betagor . . . there is a story that there was river. You know, horse can swim over. So big, big stalwart horses, they waved, mean, they were washed away by the flood. So one lean and thin horse is coming, "Can you tell me how much water is there?" It is like bora bora goye gala rasatala, beta gora katha jala. So these rascal could not reach even the moon planet; now they are planning to the Mars planet. Just see. And another rascal will believe him, that what you have done for the . . . which is the nearest planet?

Karandhara: Well, they say they've done everything they wanted to do with the moon. They say they've accomplished everything they wanted to on the moon.

Prabhupāda: So you are not successful. That's a fact.

Karandhara: Basically what they did is they went there and realized it's not worth anything, so there's no use going there.

Prabhupāda: That means you bluff again, and you take some money. That's your business.

Prajāpati: The public interest is flagging, and they're not interested in the moon anymore. They want something more exciting. So to get the . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is bluffing. That is bluffing. The scientists want to be engaged and get money from the government, so they must go on bluffing. Otherwise, how they'll get money?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: There was a seminar yesterday.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The seminar was, the title was, "The Atmosphere of Mars." The atmosphere in the Mars they are studying now very carefully.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they're saying it is carbon dioxide and water.

Prabhupāda: So the same "carbon dioxide" and big, big words, jugglery of words, that's all. (laughter)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they are hopeful that there may be some life there.

Prabhupāda: That, they are hopeful of doing everything, but never successful. Never. That they'll never become. Unless they are hopeful, how . . . just like a physician. The man is going to die; still, he's thinking, "Yes, I am hopeful." That's all. I have seen in Allahabad high court, one man was condemned to death, and his lawyer solacing him, "Don't be sorry. I'll appeal. I'll appeal. I'll get you out." You see? This is their business.

Yaśomatīnandana: They do want something more exciting, Prabhupāda, but they don't know they want to go to the spiritual sky.

Prabhupāda: They do not know what is spiritual . . . they do not know what is this sky even, what to speak of spiritual sky.

Karandhara: Prabhupāda, many theologians will say privately that they believe in God or they want to believe in God, but they cannot speak of God to the common people because the people are so agitated, they don't want to hear of God.

Prabhupāda: No, we are speaking. We are speaking to the common man. We do not hesitate. We say, "Here is Kṛṣṇa, God."

Prajāpati: The most active or the most powerful of the theologians, they are very, very conservative Christian, and they say, though, that if they believe in Jesus, they cannot hear of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Why? If they are actually theologicians, why they should not hear? Jesus Christ says that he's the son of God. But why not of the father? And what is this?

Karandhara: They make reference to one . . . he supposedly said that he was the only way, that no man could come to God the father except through Jesus.

Prabhupāda: Yes, so we accept the only way. Take Bible, and we shall prove there is Kṛṣṇa. Take Bible, yes.

Prajāpati: But they also quote a reference in the Bible that says: "No other book," it says.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no, don't accept no other book. Take Bible, and we shall prove there is Kṛṣṇa.

Hṛdayānanda: Jaya. Wonderful.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, he also said, Prabhupāda, that "God, the heavenly father, who is greater than me, He has sent me here."

Prabhupāda: Yes, there is Bible. Yes. Here is. Practically nowadays there is no Christian. All heathens. Yes. Because they are . . . therefore we are purchasing so many churches. And there are so many for sale. Nobody is going to. In London I have seen. Hundreds of churches are . . . nobody goes. Only the church caretaker and some neighbor, one or two neighboring old women, that's all. So it is gone. Christian religion is now gone.

Yaśomatīnandana: Also, Prabhupāda, Christ never said himself that he's dying for their sins. But this is the later disciples of Christ, they claim that Christ has died for their sins.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā? This is the fact?

Prajāpati: That's fact, yes.

Prabhupāda: Just see how they are . . . they're saying so many things.

Bali-mardana: Cheaters. In Germany since they lost the war everyone has become atheist. In Germany, because they lost the war, they all became atheists.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yaśomatīnandana: It's better sometimes to approach a person with no religion, Prabhupāda, than to approach a Christian.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yaśomatīnandana: These Christians are very blasphemous.

Prajāpati: Very blasphemous.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Karandhara: Party spirit.

Prabhupāda: No, no, what is their value? When they are sanctioning abortion, homosex, now they are finished. They have no value.

Karandhara: Well, most or a greater proportion of the traditional Christians condemn homosex and abortion.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Karandhara: A good quantity of the traditional Christians, they condemn abortion and homosex.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they are good, but mostly, as you were telling me that the Pope is disgusted. Yes. Nobody cares for the Bible or the Pope. That is everywhere, not only Christian. Actually there is no religion at the present moment. All animals. We don't blame only the Christians—the Hindus, Muslim, everyone. They have lost all religion.

Yaśomatīnandana: Actually, Prabhupāda, I read in the Time Magazine that Indira Gandhi, she said to one reporter her birth control program has not become successful because in Kerala there are a lot of Catholics who are opposing this kind of process. In other words, the Hindus are approving of it but the Catholics are rejecting it, it looks like, to some extent. She says that because the Catholics in Kerala, they are opposing the birth control program, so she has got trouble like that. She is completely atheistic.

Prabhupāda: Unless she become atheist, how you can stay in that post? She must be atheist. Or she may not be atheist, but for political reasons she must become atheist. Otherwise she cannot maintain her post. All these politicians, they are simply duplicity. Actually they are something else, but in political post they must show themselves as something else. This is politics.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: When Nehru said that all factories, chemical factories and these iron factories are our temples, these are our temples.

Yaśomatīnandana: Nehru was a big atheist too. He openly declared.

Prabhupāda: Yes, he was first-class atheist. Now he has become a dog. Yes. Some astrologer has said. He has become a dog in Sweden. A man has got two dogs. Out of the two, he is one.

Yaśomatīnandana: Nehru?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is quite believable.

Yaśomatīnandana: Yes, Prabhupāda, it's a fact.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: How does he know that is . . .?

Yaśomatīnandana: It's fortunate to become a dog.

Prabhupāda: Hah? The astrologers, they sometimes approached, "Ah, what is the position of this man, Vivekananda, Ramakrishna, Gandhi?" And they say something. So he has said about Nehru like this. Astrologer, he was hesitating, then he said. It was spoken by one very respectable person, Śrīdhara Mahārāja.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Who?

Prabhupāda: My Godbrother.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīdhara Mahārāja. Oh.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Similarly also, Śrīla Prabhupāda, some astrologers say that Śrīla Prabhupāda . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. Suppose if he has said, how can you disbelieve it? How can you disbelieve it? That is . . . because in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13): "After giving up this body, one has to accept another body." So he has accepted another body, but nobody can tell what body he has accepted. If the astrologer says, you have to accept it. You cannot say: "No, he has not accepted dog's body." You cannot give any proof. So anyone can say anything. But it is a fact that he has accepted another body.

Devotee: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: That is a fact. That you cannot deny, because it is said by Kṛṣṇa, tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati. That you cannot deny. He has accepted another body. What kind of body he has accepted . . . if you want to suggest, that is also given in the Bhagavad-gītā:

ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthā
madhye tiṣṭhanti rājasāḥ
adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ
(BG 14.18)

He was in tāmasic, so he has gone down to the animal kingdom. That's a fact in the Bhagavad-gītā. He has gone to the animal kingdom. Now he may be tiger or dog. That is a different thing. But he has gone to the animal kingdom. That is the verdict of Bhagavad-gītā.

Bali-mardana: He looks a little like a dog.

Prabhupāda: Adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ. He was in completely tamo-guṇa.

Yaśomatīnandana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That's a fact.

Yaśomatīnandana: He claimed himself to be brāhmaṇa, and he was eating meat.

Prabhupāda: No. He never claimed.

Yaśomatīnandana: He never claimed.

Prabhupāda: He never claimed. He said: "You call me brāhmaṇa. That's your . . . but I, I do not follow anything." He never said that.

Devotee: And Mahatma Gandhi, Prabhupāda, he said: "Rāma, Rāma, Rāma," three times before he died.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So he'll get birth as human being.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, are these astrologers, ah, they are very . . . can we believe in them, what they say? Called pseudo-science.

Prabhupāda: No. Astrology is a science. (break) . . . that I shall go to the foreign countries, and throughout the whole world I will establish so many temples, so many things, this . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they have some intelligence to tell that . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is calculation. Calculation. This astrologer, this astrologer was a very big astrologer, and when I was in service, Dr. Bose's laboratory, so Dr. Bose was treating one patient. He was vomiting blood. So he was treating as tuberculosis. Then he could not cure him after giving all medicine. Then he asked the astrologer, this astrologer who made my horoscope, "What is the matter? Paṇḍitjī, can you tell?" So he calculated. He said: "You are making wrong treatment. He has got some sore in the throat. It is not heart." And he treated, he was cured.

Yaśomatīnandana: Vedic science is so perfect.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He knew it.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Who is this Dr. Bose, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Yaśomatīnandana: Jagadish Chandra Bose?

Prabhupāda: No, he's another Bose. There is . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is a Bose Institute in Calcutta in . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is, (coughs) that is Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose. Sir J. C. Bose . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: . . . who discovered, he discovered this wireless telegraph.

Yaśomatīnandana: Wasn't that your father's friend?

Prabhupāda: No. He, this, he's Dr. Karttik Chandra Bose.

Devotee: Oh, I see.

Prabhupāda: There is a road, K.C. Bose, Dr. Karttik Chandra Bose Street. He was my father's friend.

Devotee: Did you work for Jagadish Chandra Bose too?

Prabhupāda: No, no. I worked for Dr. K. C. Bose, under whose name the street is going on, Dr. Karttik Chandra Bose. He's also famous man, this Bose. He was the, I mean to say, the starter of this Bengal Chemical Company.

Yaśomatīnandana: Oh, yes, they are a big company.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Bose's labora . . . practically chemical industry was . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think it was Acarya Prafullacandra Raya, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that starting of chemical industry in the Bengali . . .?

Prabhupāda: Acarya Prafullacandra Raya was one of the director, and this K. C. Bose was the managing director. Actually the life was given by Dr. Karttik Chandra Bose to Bengal Chemical. But because Prafullacandra Raya was a famous chemist and he was attached to it, therefore his name become famous.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh.

Yaśomatīnandana: Also you mentioned Mullik family in Calcutta to be your grandparents or something?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yaśomatīnandana: That is also mentioned in the Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: Yes. One of the member was our relative. So we are staying with them, these Mulliks. He had no sons. So we were staying, some relatives. Therefore I was born in that family, although they are our distant relations. But when I was . . . my father was staying there, I was born. These Mulliks, they are also De. Their original title is De. This Mullik is their title.

Yaśomatīnandana: For being in the Muhammadan service?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not service. Sometimes the Muhammadans used to give . . . just like the British government used to give titles, "Sir," like that. Mullik, Mullik comes from the word "mallika."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Mallika means owner. The owner?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Mullik, Chaudhuri, Raya, these are Muhammadan titles. Khan. Like that. (break)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . some family names which have two family names, like Raya Chaudhuri, like Datta Gupta. How this happened?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like the Mulliks, they're De Mullik. The original title is De, but they got the title Mullik. Similarly, there is another family, they are called Sil Mullik. The original title is Sil, but they got the title. As De we belong to the same family. But because, somehow or other, they got this title, so they . . . it is not different, but . . . yes. (break)

Yaśomatīnandana: . . . tenth chapter I read some part of it in the Gaura-gaṇoddeśa-dīpikā, in which you . . . all the original svarūpa of all the devotees are given?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yaśomatīnandana: So most of the Lord Caitanya's associates were gopīs from the . . .

Prabhupāda: Associates.

Yaśomatīnandana: Lord Kṛṣṇa's . . .

Prabhupāda: Some of them gopīs, some of them cowherds boy, some of them father, mother, like that.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: In Bengal, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the brāhmaṇa caste family like Mukherjees, then Bannerjees, then . . . I had a roommate when I was in Calcutta, his was Mukherjee. So he was telling me one day that "We are much more superior brāhmaṇas than other, like Chaudhuris and Sanyals."

Prabhupāda: But where is your superiority?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: He was explaining like that.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But where is your superiority. You're a servant now. You're śūdra. You're not even a brāhmin. Superiority by simply explanation will not do. You must be in action. Janma . . . guṇa, karma. Superiority means guṇa, karma. You must have the quality and you must work in that quality. You're a scientist, but after a few generation, a foolish boy in your family say: "We belong to the scientists' family." So what is the use of saying like that? You must become scientist.

Devotee: There's a car coming.

Prabhupāda: When you are a scientist then you are superior, not by simply . . . this has killed the Indian, I mean, Vedic culture when they began to claim superiority simply by birth, without any qualification. That killed the whole civilization.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But I think tradition's still there, isn't it?

Prabhupāda: But tradition, what is that tradition? Tradition is here, in the proof. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). The reference is given to the quality, guṇa and karma, and action. How you can simply say that, "Because I'm born in such and such family, therefore I have also the same thing. Because my father was high-court judge, therefore I am high-court judge." Is that very good logic? How you became superior?

You have to prove your superiority by your qualification and actual work. This is very nice. The world is accepting like that. Somebody's coming to you to accept some scientific instruction. He accepts you're superior in scientific knowledge, not for your birth, but for your quality and work. That is a fact. So you first of all come to the platform of the quality and work, then you claim superior.

Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. That is foolishness.

Prabhupāda: And that foolishness has killed the whole Vedic civilization.

Yaśomatīnandana: I thought the same way before I became a disciple of Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Yaśomatīnandana: I thought the same way before I became a disciple.

Prabhupāda: Here is a . . . he is coming from a very respectable brāhmaṇa family, but he knows . . .

Yaśomatīnandana: Well, I realized afterwards that I was lower than a śūdra, because actually it was my duty, and I rejected it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why we are accepting in Europe and America, call them brāhmaṇa? They are not born in brāhmaṇa family. But why we are giving them sacred thread? Only for quality and work. That is said in the śāstra. Nārada Muni says that the quality and symptoms is the real platform of judging who is brāhmaṇa, who is śūdra. Nārada said, and Śrīdhara Svāmī has commented upon him that birth is immaterial. Quality and work is to be considered. Otherwise how Caitanya Mahāprabhu can accept Haridāsa Ṭhākura as nāmācārya, the authority of the holy name? He was born in a Muhammadan family. And this Sanātana Gosvāmī, they are rejected from brāhmaṇa family because they're servants of Nawab Hussain Shah, and they adopted Muslim way of life.

Their name was also changed—Dabira Khāsa, Sākara Mallika, this Mallika (laughs), Sākara Mallika. But although they're born in brāhmaṇa family, but they're rejected from the brāhmaṇa family because they accepted service. Formerly the brāhmaṇas were so strict. Brāhmaṇa cannot accept any service; then he becomes śūdra. To accept service is the business of the śūdra. And it is warned in the śāstra: if a brāhmaṇa becomes economically poor, he may act as a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya, not as a śūdra. Then it will be quite degradation. So now this, what is this brāhmaṇa, he's in service?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think he's a physicist now. I think he came here about one year before I came here.

Prabhupāda: So if he's in service, then he's śūdra.

Yaśomatīnandana: Yes, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: He's śūdra. Paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). As soon as one accepts service of a master, immediately śūdra.

Yaśomatīnandana: True brāhmins even didn't care for kings.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yaśomatīnandana: They didn't care for the honor from king or they didn't . . . they would . . .

Prabhupāda: They would give advice to the kings but never accept the post of a king.

Hṛdayānanda: So every kṣatriya had to have something to manage?

Prabhupāda: Yes. There was a regular advisory committee, privy council, composed of high learned brāhmins and saintly persons.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think people who say like this, they are jealous.

Prabhupāda: Hah?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are jealous of the other people who are coming up higher than them. So, seeing them, they are quite jealous.

Prabhupāda: Who?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: These so-called brāhmaṇas.

Prabhupāda: They must be jealous, because if simply by taking birth in a brāhmin family he can become brāhmin, and if somebody protests, then he, he becomes jealous.

(aside greeting Dr. Wolfe) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.

Dr. Wolfe: . . . quite an invalid today.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . I do not . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: He had rheumatic pain, Śrīla Prabhupāda, so he could not come.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Dr. Wolfe: . . . arthritic pain, and I was bad in my leg today, and I thought better not to walk.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Dr. Wolfe: Thank you.

Yaśomatīnandana: It's so nice to be with you in the morning. The whole day is very nice.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Devotees: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break)

(in car)

Prabhupāda: . . . daiva-varṇāśrama. My Guru Mahārāja wanted this, that there be regular varṇāśrama, qualified. It is not the monopoly of India that only brāhmina are born there. No. No, you are all brāhmaṇas. Otherwise, how can I allow you to worship Deity? Hmm. What is that?

Satsvarūpa: If I go to some city and hold a program and advertise, but only, say, four or five people come, and yet they're interested, very interested—should that be considered successful or unsuccessful?

Prabhupāda: That is successful. If one man comes to hear, that is successful. But we have to see that, after spending so much money . . .

Satsvarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: . . . better to call a small meeting of the learned scholars and talk with them about our philosophy. Because even if you advertise, common man is not interested. They think, "Oh, what is this?" Even the so-called higher circle. The best thing is to collect some . . . just like ordinary meeting it is done. That is better. Why should you spend unnecessarily on advertising? (end)