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Svarūpa Dāmodara: So at some stage during the lifetime, especially in the human form of life...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...one should come to the senses...
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is required.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...that they are suffering.
Prabhupāda: Not to speak like madman, that you are scientists, you are, "We shall solve all the question." This nonsense thing should stop. They should come to God and understand what God says. Then their life is successful. God Himself is speaking in the Bhagavad-gītā. Just try to understand. This is not meant for the dogs and cats; this is meant for person like Arjuna—because Bhagavad-gītā was taught to Arjuna—or enlightened, I mean the topmost class of men. They'll understand. Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. Evaṁ paramparā prāptam (BG 4.2). So be yourself amongst the topmost intelligent class of men and try to understand Bhagavad-gītā. Then you'll be happy.
Devotee (1): Prabhupāda, we should go this way.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But if you want to remain unhappy by your whims, then what... God cannot help you. But you have got the intelli..., independence.
Hṛdayānanda: So Prabhupāda, if some people say, "Well, I have no free will," that means they are actually lazy.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You have got free will, but you must utilize it properly. That is free will. Free will means to utilize it properly. That is free will.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So Śrīla Prabhupāda, sometimes Kṛṣṇa interferes in the free will?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Our free will.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: God interferes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Kṛṣṇa's special favor. Because by your free will you are going to hell. If Kṛṣṇa interferes, that is Kṛṣṇa's special favor. Just like a child is going to touch fire by free will, and father, "Eh, don't do it." That is his special favor.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But it's called causeless mercy.
Prabhupāda: Ah? Causeless mercy. His mercy is already there, but we are denying the mercy. That is the defect of material existence.
Yaśomatīnandana: Spiritual master is the mercy of God?
Prabhupāda: Yes. God is distributing His mercy from within and from without. "Without mercy" is the spiritual master. "Without" means externally, just in front of you.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Impersonalist boys... (break) ...who are... (break) Eh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: "What is life cannot be proved by experiment. So it is not necessary to talk about life now."
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Grapes are sour. (devotees laugh) The jackal's philosophy. The jackal came in the orchard of grapes and tried to take some grapes. He jumped many times, and when he failed, "Oh, there is no necessity; it is sour." It is jackal's philosophy. Sly fox.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say that ultimately there may be no difference...
Prabhupāda: It is Māyāvāda, Māyāvāda. Māyāvāda says, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā: "This world is false." (break) ...so what... (break) ...prepared it, so he is the cause of this construction of the bench. How you can say there is no cause?
Hṛdayānanda: Then they will say...
Hṛdayānanda: They will say, "If everything has a cause..."
Hṛdayānanda: "...then God also must have a cause."
Prabhupāda: No. That is God: which has no cause. That is our definition. Everything has cause, but when you come to a point where there is no more cause—He is cause and effect Himself—then that is God.
Karandhara: So then sometimes they say, "Well, what's to say there will ever be original cause?"
Prabhupāda: Ah? (break) ...that is original cause. We... (break) ...anvayād itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ svarāṭ, satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi (SB 1.1.1). That is actual element: Kṛṣṇa.
- ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo
- mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate
- iti matvā bhajante māṁ
- budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ
- (BG 10.8)
That is... (break) The actual element is so complete that you take the complete from the complete, still it is complete. (break) ...but complete element means you go on taking hundred dollars every moment, still hundred dollars.
Karandhara: They would say that's impossible.
Prabhupāda: That is their ignorance. There is such thing. Pūrṇasya pūrṇam. That is Vedic information. Therefore tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). (break) Why not? Just like we can see materially that sunshine, for millions and millions of years it is shiny, still it is the same temperature.
Karandhara: But it's diminishing.
Karandhara: The volume of the sun is diminishing.
Prabhupāda: No, because it is material. But we can understand that there... Of course, that is no... That touchstone. The touchstone can create gold. So unlimitedly it can create gold, touchstone. So, even in material experience we'll find there is certain things which creates unlimitedly, still it remains.
Chandanācārya: Like there's a starfish.
Chandanācārya: There is a fish called the starfish. It has five arms, and if it loses one arm it will grow that arm back, or that arm will grow back four other arms.
Prabhupāda: Just see. (laughs)
Karandhara: That's just material generation; that's not...
Prabhupāda: No, no. I have already said there is an idea that even in the insignificant material element we find this, that one is lost, another is grown. (break) So when the Supreme Absolute Truth is there, how much potency? That is explained in the Vedas. Pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate (ISO Invocation|Īśo Invocation). This is the idea of the Absolute. You take the complete from the complete, still it is complete.
Yaśomatīnandana: They are so foolish that they have accepted an entity called infinity for the material purposes, for mathematics and everything, and they know that they are limited, but they will not accept that that can be a living entity which is infinite. They can accept that there's a new number called infinity, but they can't understand that there can be a living entity which is infinite too.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That number is matter. Living entity is always superior. So if in the inferior quality, matter, it is possible, how much it is possible in the superior quality.
Yaśomatīnandana: And they also admit that they're limited, they also admit that they are fallible, so they also...
Prabhupāda: Because it is matter, it is limited, always limited, although it appears unlimited.
Karandhara: They say they're limited, but their process is not.
Karandhara: They say their process, the scientific process, is not limited.
Prabhupāda: That is another nonsense. If you are limited, how you can manufacture process... (break) ... is bogus.
Karandhara: They don't say... They say they haven't manufactured it. They've just discovered it.
Prabhupāda: No, if you are limited, how can you discover the unlimited? Then what is the meaning of limited? You cannot discover...
Devotee (3): But if I am limited jīva, I can discover Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Ah? No, you do not discover.
Yaśomatīnandana: It's there in...
Prabhupāda: But you know from higher authority. You cannot discover it.
Devotee (3): That's right. (break) Also... (break) ...does it not?
Prabhupāda: This is conservation.
Devotee (3): Actually the material world is never annihilated.
Prabhupāda: Pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate (Īśo Invocation).
Devotee (3): Doesn't it rest in Viṣṇu's body?
Devotee (3): When the material world is annihilated, it still is there, is it not?
Yaśomatīnandana: The living entities rest in Viṣṇu's body, (indistinct) material creation.
Hṛdayānanda: That's in the Bhagavad-gītā. The five elements are all eternal, except...
Yaśomatīnandana: I understand that the process is eternal, Prabhupāda said.
Devotee (3): No, no, no, the five elements are eternal.
Yaśomatīnandana: ...each universe...
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Devotee (3): The five elements are eternal.
Prabhupāda: Eternal, but it is manifested and not manifested. Just like the conservation of energy. That is the... Energy is manifested; sometimes not manifested. (break) But nonmanifested does not mean that it is... (break) ...energy.
Karandhara: But the definition of the Absolute Truth is inconceivable, so it must violate their logic.
Karandhara: Their logic...
Prabhupāda: No. Inconceivable by them, not by us. Therefore we call them fools. It is not inconceivable by us. But so you know the truth from the Truth, Absolute Truth. A layman or a foolish boy does not know where..., which side the sun will rise. His father can say, "This side it will rise." That is the difference. Because he knows how to suggest which side, because there is reddish, how do you say, illumination, he knows that "This side is sun...," by the symptom.
Both of them, the foolish man and the intelligent man, just at present do not see that where is the sun. But the intelligent man knows, "Here is the sun," although the sun is not visible both to the intelligent and foolish man. That intelligence means he knows how to find out where is sun. That is intelligence. And this is not discovery. I am intelligent speaking, "This side is sun." It is not my discovery. I have heard from authority that from the eastern direction the sun rises, so I know it.
Yaśomatīnandana: They're so stupid they name it Absolute Truth, but still they try to make their own theories about the Absolute Truth.
Yaśomatīnandana: In the Vedic literatures it is stated, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). They can't even understand a simple thing.
Prabhupāda: No. Dharma means the codes of..., the laws of God. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam... (BG 18.66). This is dharma. Kṛṣṇa says that "You give up your nonsense manufactured religion. Here is religion. Surrender unto Me." Who will deny? Any religious person will accept it. Who will deny? This is dharma. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. So who will deny? Who is that man who will deny this statement, that one has to surrender to the Supreme? Who will deny it? Therefore it is dharma. You have to submit. Just like the government: the government is the supreme. Who will deny? Who will deny?
Hṛdayānanda: Only the criminal.
Prabhupāda: Only the criminal. And he'll be punished, that's all. The result will be he'll be punished. Beaten with the shoes of policeman, that's all.
Karandhara: But some people get away with it.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) he'll get away. But you can get away from the police custody, but you cannot get away by māyā's custody. That is not possible.
Karandhara: But because in all material examples there are exceptions, they say... In all material examples there are exceptions, so they try to find that exception.
Prabhupāda: No, exceptions are there. Mām eva ye prapadyante. Those who are devotee, they are not under māyā. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. If you do not violate the laws of God... (break) ...there is no question of being... (break) ...by māyā. If you surrender...
(break) ...ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. (break) ...if the government protects everyone who is surrendered to the laws of the God, government. The government will give all protection. If he is a law-abiding citizen, he must be given protection, all protection. Harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21).
Hṛdayānanda: You're too intelligent for the atheists, Prabhupāda.
Hṛdayānanda: You're too intelligent for the atheists.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Atheist means criminal. They're punishable, that's all. And the more people becoming godless, they're being punished by nature. (japa)
Chandanācārya: Actually, by the law of conservation of energy reincarnation can be explained.
Chandanācārya: By their own law.
Hṛdayānanda: Why shouldn't consciousness also be conserved?
Chandanācārya: Consciousness is also energy.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Energy of the soul. As soon as the soul is passed from the body, there is no more consciousness. This is very easy to understand. They cannot explain why the consciousness stops. They cannot explain. But that is the symptom. Yena sarvam idam, avināśi tu tad viddhi..., yena sarvam idam (BG 2.17), in the Bhagavad-gītā. That thing which is spreading the energy all over the body, that is eternal. Now, what is that thing which is spreading the consciousness? It is the soul.
So long the soul is there, you have got consciousness; otherwise there is no consciousness. Very plain word. Avināśi tu tad viddhi. Just try to understand that thing which is spreading consciousness all over the body. Just like a small grain of poison: as soon as you take it, immediately it will, I mean to say, spread all over the blood. Even a small grain. And how much powerful is that spiritual spark?
Chandanācārya: So the grain is carried by the blood. What is the spiritual spark carried by?
Prabhupāda: Spiritual spark... The soul(?) is not carried by, but he resides within the body. He is carried by his own karma, subtle. Subtle desire he is carried. Everyone is carried by his desire. Why I have come here, in America? I have got a desire to preach; therefore I've come. Otherwise I had no business to come here. So desire carries you. That is, the rascal, they do not know. Desire is there. They cannot see, but desire is there.
Mind is there, intelligence there; they cannot see. That is carrying. The example is given, just like the aroma of a flower is being carried by the air. And nobody can see, but one can feel, "Oh, it is very good, nice aroma. Wherefrom it is coming?" But he has no eyes to see either the aroma or the air. Similarly, the soul after destruction of this body is being carried by the desire, but they have no eyes to see what is that desire, what is that soul, what is that intelligence. They are saying, "There is no soul." This is mostly stupidity.
Prabhupāda: Simply stupids.
Hṛdayānanda: So if someone is Kṛṣṇa conscious, then nothing can be hidden from him.
Hṛdayānanda: If someone is Kṛṣṇa conscious, then...
Prabhupāda: Yes, because he learned from the..., Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam, na jāyate na mriyate vā..., na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). So we are... Kṛṣṇa conscious means you are taking what Kṛṣṇa says; therefore we know. Therefore we know. And then you judge in your own way, you'll find, "Yes, it is all right."
Devotee: This way.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idaṁ tatam. At the present moment, because your these blunt eyes cannot see the soul, you have to learn it by appreciation. Anuvarga. It is called anuvarga,(?) appreciation. Just like Kṛṣṇa says that tad viddhi, that, that thing which is spreading consciousness, that is soul. Now you can perceive there must be something which is now absent; otherwise why there is no consciousness? Where is the difficulty? If you do not see, you can understand it. Just like the same example, when good aroma is carried. So somebody says, "This good aroma is coming because the air is passing through a flower garden, therefore this aroma." Now this is a fact, but you cannot see the aroma or the air. But you hear from an experienced man. That is the way of understanding which is beyond your sense perception.
But these rascals, simply they are depending on their blunt senses, these stupids, so-called scientist. Therefore they're stupid. They simply believe on their eyes. They do not know how much defective these eyes and senses are. Incomplete. That they do not know. They believe on their defective senses. Akṣaja. Akṣaja, akṣa. Experiment. Everything experimented. Vedas says don't try to explain which is beyond your sense. How you will explain? It is not possible. Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkeṇa yojayet (Mahābhārata, Bhīṣma parva 5.22). It is acintya; it is beyond your conception. Why you are wasting your time?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But a scientist will say that "I can show you what the aroma looks like."
Prabhupāda: They cannot show you. That is another stupidity. (indistinct) anything practically. Now here is... Who can deny that Kṛṣṇa says that avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sar..., there is a thing within the body which is eternal? And what is that thing which is spreading consciousness? And you show what is that thing which is spreading consciousness. Then I shall accept you as scientist.
Karandhara: They would say, "How can we believe Kṛṣṇa?"
Prabhupāda: No, no, you don't believe. That here is a fact, that there is something within the body which is spreading consciousness. That is eternal. There is no question of believing. It is a fact. Now you show what is that fact, where is that fact.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They'll say it's just biochemical reactions.
Prabhupāda: Biochemical... You simply do it, rascal. You cannot do it. (Hṛdayānanda laughs) You rascal simply speak, but you cannot do it. That is our contention.
Prabhupāda: Therefore you are rascal. You speak something which is beyond your power.
Yaśomatīnandana: Prabhupāda, it solves...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore it is simply cheating people. And we, Kṛṣṇa conscious men, we want to stop this cheating, any way...
Karandhara: They'd say we also cannot prove the soul is eternal.
Prabhupāda: No, there is proof. There is something. We accept it, but you don't accept it. There are so many things. There are so many things you do not see, but still you accept it. Just like without father there cannot be son. Now you have not seen your father, but mother says, "Here is your father." You have to believe it. It is a fact.
Karandhara: But they can experience being a father themselves.
Prabhupāda: Ah? Ah?
Karandhara: They can experience that, 'cause they can be a father themselves.
Prabhupāda: They can be father themselves?
Prabhupāda: What is that? Without son how one becomes father?
Karandhara: No, but they... That example falls within the range of their experience, because they can also be a father.
Prabhupāda: No, not to your experience. But a superior experience, say mother.
Prabhupāda: Not your experience. You cannot say by experience who is your father. Your mother can say.
Karandhara: No, but the example that I have a father can be appreciated because I can also be a father.
Prabhupāda: But therefore if that appreciation is there, that avināśi tu tad viddhi yena..., the consciousness is spreading from the soul, so you have to appreciate there must be something from which consciousness comes. That you cannot deny.
Karandhara: They say it is biochemical development.
Prabhupāda: No, but then you replace consciousness by a biochemical combination. That you cannot do.
Chandanācārya: When the baby is born dead.
Karandhara: But just because they say, "Because we can't do it yet doesn't mean it's not possible."
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. You cannot do, therefore you are rascal. You're talking all nonsense. You cannot do it, how you speak?
Karandhara: Up till two hundred years ago they weren't able to fly...
Prabhupāda: No, two hundred... No, I want immediately. We don't want blank check. (devotees laugh) Rascal blank check.
Yaśomatīnandana: Prabhupāda, we can go this way.
Prabhupāda: Postdated blank check. (devotees laugh) We don't believe. We must have real cash.
Chandanācārya: And then they will admit actually that their senses are...
Karandhara: No, then they'll want to see a soul...
Devotee: ...are limited.
Karandhara: They want to see a soul as eternal.
Prabhupāda: (aside:) Which way?
Devotee: Go to one life to another life.
Prabhupāda: Which way?
Devotee: Which way?
Hṛdayānanda: Where is...?
Yaśomatīnandana: Prabhupāda, actually this knowledge is so absolute, in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that pratyakṣāvagamaṁ dharmyam (BG 9.2). You can actually experience...
Yaśomatīnandana: ...just by taking bhakti you can see that your purification comes...
Yaśomatīnandana: ...and actually intelligence comes from Kṛṣṇa. So if actually one is sincere, then Kṛṣṇa will give him intelligence, that "Yes, actually there is a soul, and actually I'm the Supersoul."
Karandhara: That intelligence, you just said is defective.
Prabhupāda: No, no, my senses are defective. But the source from which I know, that is not defective. I cannot experimentally know who is my father. But the source from whom I understand, that is perfection.
Yaśomatīnandana: In other words, they'll get confirmation within their heart. They will be satisfied that "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is God," if they are sincere.
Prabhupāda: Yes. If they are sincere. That is it. Budha. Budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ (BG 10.8). Others, rascals, cannot (indistinct). Mūḍhas, narādhama, they cannot.
Chandanācārya: They'll say you're sincerely brainwashed.
Chandanācārya: They say you are sincerely brainwashed.
Prabhupāda: Brainwashed? Why? These are facts.
Yaśomatīnandana: But we still have some basis...
Prabhupāda: If you cannot reply, you simply misrepresent, scientist. We say there must be something which is spreading consciousness. Now how can I deny it? It is not brainwash. There must be something. Now if you are scientist, you find out.
Hṛdayānanda: That which is spreading consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Yes. What is that thing which is spreading consciousness?
Hṛdayānanda: So if they say it is the chemical... But they can't do that, they can't...
Prabhupāda: Yes, you put the chemicals. Just like I have sent my car, it is not running, so they know how it will run. They know. Therefore I have said, "But if you do not know; you're speaking nonsense. You do not know anything." And as soon as you are captured, you say, "Yes, in future I shall know." What is this? The same, postdated blank check, which has no value. Will the postdated check, will it be accepted by anyone? Suppose you give me a postdated check, if I pay him. What is this nonsense? This is all nonsense. "Future." (devotees laugh) No future, sir. Immediate. Cash payment.
Hṛdayānanda: So that's cheating.
Prabhupāda: Ah. That is cheating.
Karandhara: But they'll say, "But you also cannot show us."
Prabhupāda: No, I can show you. I say there must be something. There must be something.
Karandhara: We say it's a spirit; they say...
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be there, I say "something." You find out that something. I say something. I don't say spirit, matter or anything. Something.
Karandhara: Yes, they say that they look...
Prabhupāda: Ah, that is their cheating. Find out now, and I accept it they're scientists. Yes. Cash money, sir. Then I shall know that you are rich man. You have no... You want to cheat me with the paper?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's why they'll say that "We are doing research."
Prabhupāda: That means that... Then don't talk that you are scientist. You are student. You are trying to learn. You are student. You cannot say that you are scientist.
Hṛdayānanda: So regardless of our position, they are not qualified.
Prabhupāda: Their system is to remain a student and pose as teacher, their system. They're trying to learn it, and still they're posing as teacher. Teacher means one who knows. He does not know; still he poses in the post of a teacher.
Hṛdayānanda: So the system cannot be good because it does not purify their character. They still cheat.
Prabhupāda: No, cheating simply. A little knowledge—cheating. Little knowledge.
Yaśomatīnandana: They're simply like neti neti: "Not this, not this."
Prabhupāda: "Not this." Yes. Negation. Definition by negation. Not positive definition. They say, "It is not this." But what it is they cannot say.
Prabhupāda: That is their process.
Hṛdayānanda: It is not God but...
Karandhara: They do not accept our evidence.
Karandhara: They do not accept our evidence or...
Prabhupāda: No. Therefore they are fools. That is a fact. Any child can understand. And even they're less than a child. If I say there is something, therefore there is consciousness, any boy can understand. But they cannot understand. Less than a boy.
Karandhara: They say there's no proof that that something...
Prabhupāda: That is the proof. That is the proof.
Chandanācārya: Yes, their own law of conservation.
Karandhara: No, I'm talking about the individuality...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Individuality... There are so many proofs. There are so many proofs. How you can say it is not?
Chandanācārya: By their own laws.
Prabhupāda: No, no, not that. It is different subject matter. That something is missing within the body, therefore it is dead. So what is your answer? We say something is missing. We shall decide what is that something later on. But something is missing. If you suggest that something is some chemical combination, then you do it. Therefore do not know. I say something is missing. If you know, then you replace that something, then you'll know.
Karandhara: What do we say that something is?
Prabhupāda: No... That everyone can, any layman can understand, that this dead body is unconscious because something is missing. Any layman can understand. If you know that, then you replace it. I don't say I know, but I say something is missing.
Prabhupāda: You have to accept also that. But if you know that something, then you replace it. Otherwise you also do not know. Then why you are talking of big, big words? You do not know.
Prabhupāda: But something is missing, that is accepted by everyone.
Bhakta dāsa: (laughs) So we both don't know.
Prabhupāda: Ah? No, I know better than you. Because you are a fool, I'm a fool, but you are a fool and still you are posing you know. That is the difference.
Karandhara: They may say, "We don't know, but we're trying to find out."
Prabhupāda: That also... Then why I shall give you better position?
Karandhara: We are also trying to find out.
Prabhupāda: Then why should I give you better position? You're on the same level with me. Why you are posing as "I am scientist"? You are a fool. You admit I am fool; you admit you are a fool. But why you are posing as scientist?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because they will say that they have a..., they are trying to find out experimental things.
Prabhupāda: You have not found out, that's a fact. As I have not found. Therefore you are equally fool like me. Don't pose yourself better than me.
Karandhara: If we're both fools...
Yaśomatīnandana: But at least we are accepting some authority which is supposedly very authorized by great saints, sages...
Karandhara: They have also great authorities.
Yaśomatīnandana: Well, they have fallible authorities.
Prabhupāda: And all the authorities... No, therefore these persons who do not accept authority, they're rascal.
Karandhara: They are accepting authorities.
Prabhupāda: But they're accepting authority who is not authority.
Devotee: They're fools.
Yaśomatīnandana: Darwin. They're accepting Darwin as authority.
Karandhara: They say, "But why should we accept any one of your authorities?"
Prabhupāda: No, then you come to argument, reason, then whether Darwin is authority or Kṛṣṇa is authority, we have to decide.
Yaśomatīnandana: They accept like, "I have not seen President Nixon, but I accept because I read in the newspaper." So somebody says that, well, by following this bhakti you can see Kṛṣṇa, but they will not accept that.
Chandanācārya: Why should they accept Kṛṣṇa as authority over Darwin authority?
Prabhupāda: Ah? Because He's accepted by...
Yaśomatīnandana: Great sages.
Prabhupāda: ...great sages, saintly person, scholars...
Chandanācārya: By many scientists.
Prabhupāda: Then that way fool's paradise. It is called, "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." That is the only conclusion.
Karandhara: That's what they say about us.
Prabhupāda: Because this world is all full of fools, so it is very difficult to push on. That we know. Therefore we should not go to the mūḍhas.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: "Birds of a feather flock together."
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes.
Hṛdayānanda: So they can go to Darwin's planet, we'll go to Kṛṣṇa's planet.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs)
Karandhara: But how will we defeat them?
Prabhupāda: Yānti bhūtejyā bhūtāni (BG 9.25).
Yaśomatīnandana: By giving them prasādam.
Yaśomatīnandana: We'll defeat them by giving them prasādam, right, Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: To cure their disease, we have to give them prasādam and give them chance to hear Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is (indistinct). Just like a man suffering from jaundice, he sees everything yellow. And if you say, "No, it is not yellow—white," "No, I see yellow," what can be done? Then the medicine has to be given. He'll never say it is white. He'll say it is yellow, because he is suffering. So we have to cure. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness method is curing the disease of jaundice.
Hṛdayānanda: In other words, Prabhupāda, unless there are enough gentlemen to accept saintly persons, we cannot talk to them. (break)
Chandanācārya: ...we have to defeat them by prasādam.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, we have to show them mercy. It is not the question of defeat. Just like a diseased person is talking nonsense, so doctors takes care, "All right, go on talking nonsense. Take this medicine." (devotees laugh) That is hospitalization.
Yaśomatīnandana: They're already defeated.
Prabhupāda: Yes, already defeated by nature. Māyayāpahṛta-jñāna (BG 7.15). That is stated, apahṛta-jñāna. Māyā has taken their all knowledge, and because māyā has taken their all knowledge, the preaching is required. (break)
Yaśomatīnandana: ...why couldn't they accept that such simple thing?
Prabhupāda: They're not wise. Mūḍha. Na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhāḥ, duṣkṛtina (BG 7.15), because they always engage in sinful activities. These are the sym..., cause of their disease. They're sinful, they're rascal, lowest of the mankind, and whatever knowledge they are proud of, that is māyā, and the basic principle is they're asuras, atheists.
Yaśomatīnandana: Just like a prisoner trying to demand explanation from the king...
Prabhupāda: Let us go this way, because the tide is there
Karandhara: Prabhupāda, we should go straight back; it's getting late.
Prabhupāda: Ah? No, no. What is the time now?
Karandhara: Quarter to seven.
Prabhupāda: Quarter to seven?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: All right.
Chandanācārya: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when someone is sick, he willingly goes to the doctor.
Prabhupāda: That is the injunction of the Vedas: tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva... (MU 1.2.12). Therefore these rascals should go to a bona fide guru.
Chandanācārya): So how we can get them to willingly come...
Chandanācārya: ...to the guru?
Prabhupāda: No. Just like if you are diseased, you are suffering the pains, so naturally you shall be inclined how to reduce the pain, how to get out of this pain.
Chandanācārya: But the scientists...
Prabhupāda: But these rascals, even though are suffering three kinds of pains, tri-tāpa-yatna... Just like why you are covered? Because there is pain, severe cold; similarly severe heat. So we are suffering, either in summer season or winter season. We are suffering, tri-tāpa-yantraṇā. There is suffering from our mind, from our body—this is natural suffering. There is bodily suffering, mental suffering, then suffering caused by other living entities. So we are always suffering. But still they're thinking that "We are happy." The disease is already there. Ah?
Just like the Arabian do not want to give you petrol. That means the suffering caused by other nations. So this is going on. They're simply trying to settle up. But the suffering's there. But they're not in their knowledge, that in spite of our all endeavors, the sufferings are there. What is the cause? Then whom shall I go to ask why the suffering is there? Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum (MU 1.2.12). Therefore you must approach to a person who knows how the suffering should be mitigated.
Yaśomatīnandana: But there's so many so-called gurus, Prabhupāda. How...
Prabhupāda: Then you cannot go to the so-called.
Yaśomatīnandana: How can you convince that we are the real, genuine people?
Prabhupāda: That you will have to learn. Just like you have to go to school; that is injunction. But if you do not know what is school, you go to a cow farm(?), then that is your fault. If I say, "You go and purchase this from the market," suppose you have to purchase gold, but you go to a storefront, a milk-seller, then how you will get the gold? That intelligence you must have, that where gold can be had. You must go to the person who is dealing really with gold. But if you do not know, then you will be cheated. That much knowledge you must have.
Hṛdayānanda: That's what book distribution is for.
Chandanācārya: Just like there are some good schools and some bad schools.
Prabhupāda: And because now they're so fallen, they do not go, neither they know; therefore we are canvassing, "Here is a school."
Prabhupāda: That is our business. "Here is knowledge. Come on."
Yaśomatīnandana: Still they won't go.
Prabhupāda: That is their misfortune.
Yaśomatīnandana: This is the only knowledge. Everybody else is distributing ignorance.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Prabhupāda?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Sometimes questions are raised saying that how do we know that a bird is more intelligent than a human being.
Prabhupāda: Yes, bird is more intelligent.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But we are posing that the human beings are the...
Prabhupāda: Just like, just like, here is a bird. As soon as he'll see so many men are coming, he'll jump over the... You are not intelligent to jump over. Suppose somebody is coming to stab you; you cannot jump. Therefore bird is more intelligent.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: How do we know that they're not (indistinct)?
Prabhupāda: Ah? No, they know, "Here is..., enemy is coming," even fishes, animals, they know. As soon as there is enemy, they take protection.
Chandanācārya: But they take the hook.
Chandanācārya: But the fish take the hook.
Chandanācārya: When the man is fishing with the hook, the fish takes the hook.
Prabhupāda: That ignorance is there, but the hook... Not only out of ignorance; out of greediness. That if you become more greedy, he knows there is sufficient food in the sea, but the rascal is greedy, he's taking another... Due to his rascaldom, he's dying. Greediness. So similarly, all arrangement is there, God-made. Even for human being. But because they're rascals, they're greedy. They're greedy, although their greediness cannot satisfy them.
Everyone is greedy, because the law of nature is equal to everyone. If law of nature can supply food to the birds and beast and everyone, why not to the human being? What human being has done? But they're rascal, greedy; therefore they're suffering. More; want more. There is already food—grains, milk, flower, fruits, immense supply—but he'll cut the throat of another animal. Greedy. And they're suffering, committing sinful activities.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We're getting information that only in the human form...
Prabhupāda: Wherefrom information? Another rascal? What is that information? If you get information from another rascal, what you'll get benefit? The source of information must be perfect. Then you'll get information, it is all right. If you are a rascal and if you get information from another rascal, then what is the benefit?
Karandhara: They'd say there is no perfect source.
Prabhupāda: Because you have not... You're cheater. You're cheater, you are cheated, therefore that is your version.
Karandhara: We are imperfect. How do we know what a perfect source is?
Prabhupāda: No, I do not know. Therefore it is said, tad-vijñānārthaṁ gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). You must know from a person who knows.
Karandhara: He's also imperfect.
Prabhupāda: Ah? Well his perfection will be proved in the satisfaction. The so-called scientist, philosopher, politician, they could not bring peace in the world. That is their fool.
Karandhara: We have also not brought peace in the world.
Prabhupāda: No, we are..., our all followers are peaceful. We... I'm getting thousands of letter, how much you are benefited.
Devotee: United Nation gets thousands of letters.
Hṛdayānanda: I don't think so.
Prabhupāda: United Nation is fool.
Hṛdayānanda: They don't think so.
Prabhupāda: They get letters protest, that "You, rascal, United Nation, what you are doing for this?"
Karandhara: No, they're getting millions of dollars in contributions every year from people who think they're doing...
Prabhupāda: No, that "in future." No. That is his philosophy. (devotees laugh)
Karandhara: Our philosophy also. We say we can bring peace in the world, but that's in the future.
Chandanācārya: No, but they are giving their contributions.
Prabhupāda: (aside:) No.
Devotee: Maybe that will help them bring some peace.
Chandanācārya: But we already have peace.
Hṛdayānanda: The United Nations cannot bring peace either.
Yaśomatīnandana: This is a question of the standard of peace. (devotees discuss among themselves)
Prabhupāda: Then if you say like that, then United Nation is not better than us, you have to accept. If we cannot give peace, and they are not giving peace, then why they are so big organization?
Karandhara: They will say because it is a better organization.
Prabhupāda: They cannot also. They simply give... They can give simply words, that's all. "United," they're speaking of unity, only flags are increasing. Daily another flag, another flag, another flag. And the flags will never unite. And still they are advertising "United Nation."
Yaśomatīnandana: When the war starts, United States...
Prabhupāda: Yes, in America, they started, United Nation, but they are going to fight with the Vietnam. United Nation.
Yaśomatīnandana: Unless one is free from the material concept of life, like "I'm American," "I'm Indian," "I'm Chinese," "I'm Japanese," how can he be peaceful? Because he has got some grudge against somebody else.
Yaśomatīnandana: Whereas as a devotee, he doesn't have any grudge against anybody. Therefore he's peaceful.
Devotee: He has a grudge against the demons.
Yaśomatīnandana: Well, no. That's actually love for Kṛṣṇa. That's not a grudge against the demons.
Chandanācārya: A devotee also is merciful to the demons.
Prabhupāda: No, no, we are not envious of the demons. Otherwise there is no need of preaching. We are trying to make the demons perfect. That is our preaching.
Prabhupāda: Ah? Yes. Compassionate.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We are preaching that the human form of life is the most important form of any living entities.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That human form of life...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...is the most important species.
Prabhupāda: Developed consciousness. Developed consciousness.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But somebody asks, "How do I know that bird is not more highly advanced than a human being?"
Prabhupāda: How you can ask?
Chandanācārya: By example.
Prabhupāda: That is... Human being has created the city. The bird cannot.
Chandanācārya: Birds also create cities.
Prabhupāda: No, their cities, their own way, but not like this. Human being has constructed the skyscraper building. A bird cannot. In that sense you are advanced. That sense you are advanced.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they say this is just our own mental concoction.
Prabhupāda: They can repair their nest with some stick, and that's all. That much they can do. But you can, big, big beams, you can... That is the difference.
Yaśomatīnandana: Because even the most powerful birds we can control.
Prabhupāda: But, but there is no benefit. You are misusing your intelligence by skyscraper building, and they're using their intelligence to make a nest; but the benefit derived is equal. Therefore, in that sense you are less intelligence.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In other words, they never violate the laws of nature, but other..., we are backward, because we tried to fight against the laws of nature.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our disease.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they are more advanced.
Devotee (2): Practically you said that.
Chandanācārya: That the birds are living naturally.
Prabhupāda: Yes, naturally. No... They have no discrimination. They have to abide by the laws of nature. But you have got discrimination; therefore you are punished.
Chandanācārya: So we will attract the scientists by saying that we are both fools?
Chandanācārya: Before, we were saying that we were both fools. Is that the way to attract the scientists?
Prabhupāda: No, no. That was argument. We are not fools; the scientist is fool. (devotees laugh) We are educated.
Chandanācārya: But how we can get them to come, to take prasādam?
Prabhupāda: That... Yes, give them nice prasādam, they'll come. If one scientist can be captured, many other can be captured. (laughter)
Yaśomatīnandana: By saying that "We have got free food. Come and dine with us."
Chandanācārya: But first we give them prasādam, and then they come, or first they come and then we give them prasādam?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like that Dr. Wolfe came also. So gradually they'll come, because they're...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they're more interested in seeing the molecules than eating prasādam.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is their (indistinct).
Chandanācārya: So we have to trick them to take prasādam.
Prabhupāda: They will (indistinct) not to see molecules, but to see how palatable dishes are there. (laughter)
Yaśomatīnandana: Yeah, they will forget it.
Prabhupāda: At that time they forget their laboratory.
Yaśomatīnandana: You forgot your laboratory.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just like Govinda Khorana, he got Nobel Prize about few years ago.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So whenever he works, he never cares about anything, what he cares is only is piece of paper and a pen so that he can write molecules. So his consciousness is only on molecules, and he is very happy.
Prabhupāda: That is nice. Nice
Yaśomatīnandana: Pigs eating stool.
Prabhupāda: That is māyā. You see, even the pig is happy in eating stool. That is māyā. Prakṣepātmikā-śakti, covering energy of māyā. Unless he's covered, he cannot eat, he cannot eat and enjoy.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So these are all guided by māyā.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). Prakṛti is conducting everything, as you are associating with qualities of prakṛti. Infection. That I have already explained.
Devotees: Jaya! All glories to... (end)