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731203 - Morning Walk - Los Angeles

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

731203MW-LOS ANGELES - December 03, 1973 - 39:24 Minutes

Prabhupāda: What is the scientific question? Muḍhāḥ? (laughter) Māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ (BG 7.15)?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: When they say about the . . . how one starts talking about the origin of life, they say that one should first of all consider how the earth was formed, how this planet earth where we live, how it was formed, what is the origin of the earth.

Prabhupāda: Earth.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Origin of earth is life. It is very simple to understand. Just like your body. Your body is . . . or why your body? Take the tree. Tree is matter; it is earth. Wherefrom the big tree comes? From the life within the seed.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they say that about 4.5 billion years ago this earth condensed in such a form. But before that there was no living entity, because this earth was not suitable for it.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) That is rascal. No, no. You have got history for billions of years?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: What is that history? We have got history that Brahmā was the first creation, and from Brahmā . . . Brahmā created this universe.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are saying that before, it was all gaseous dust particles and some gaseous materials which were floating, and in due course it condensed, and then it formed this . . .

Prabhupāda: So where from the gas came? That they do not know.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, they say it was just floating.

Prabhupāda: Floating where? Wherefrom the sky came? They are all nonsense. Simply speculating and consuming cheap money from the government. That's all. This is their business. The government is exacting taxes from the hard-working men, and these rascals are devouring this money. That's all. And making theories. That's all.

Hṛdayānanda: There was one big scandal where they'd found out all the scientists were just taking money. Even by material standards it was unnecessary. It was a very big scandal.

Prabhupāda: It must be they are scandal. They are after money. That's all. Not after knowledge. And what knowledge they have got? Rākṣasa. Simply speculating and befooling other fools. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). This is their business. One blind man is befooling other blind men. That's all.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are very much convinced that this earth was gaseous. So there was no life at the beginning.

Prabhupāda: That may be. That may be that. That . . . but wherefrom the gas came?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It was just existing.

Prabhupāda: Bhinnā prakṛtiḥ me aṣṭa . . . the answer is the bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhiḥ (BG 7.4). Vāyu. Vāyu, gas. It came from Kṛṣṇa. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Vāyu. Vāyu is gas, is it not?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Air.

Prabhupāda: And finer than the vāyu is the ether, the sky. Finer than the sky is the mind. Finer than the mind is the intelligence, and finer than the intelligence is the soul. So they do not know this. They capture only middle thing, vāyu. Wherefrom the vāyu came? Wherefrom the gas came?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That part remains unanswered. That part cannot be answered.

Prabhupāda: But we answer. We answer. We have got the knowledge. The gas came from ether, and ether came from mind, and mind came from intelligence, and intelligence came from the soul.

Hṛdayānanda: They will say you cannot prove that.

Prabhupāda: Yes, we can prove that.

Hṛdayānanda: How will you prove it?

Prabhupāda: You see still, gases, I mean to say, cloud is forming in the sky. But you have no eyes to see it.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: With this background before, then that is why they start saying that before Darwin's theory there should be one. That is called chemical evolution. That is called pre-biotic chemistry. Means before biological evolution started there should be chemical evolution.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that chemical evolution is part of life demonstration. That I have already explained. Just like the chemical, citric acid, coming from lemon tree, a life. It is coming. So all chemicals are being produced . . . just like in your body, my body, there are so many chemicals. Because the body is there, the chemicals are coming. In my urine you will find so much, so many chemicals. In my stool you will find so many chemicals. Wherefrom the chemicals coming?

Daily enzyme, so many other chemicals are coming. Simply the medical man analyzes the urine, and so many chemicals are there. Wherefrom it came? Because I am living entity, the chemicals are coming in my urine, in my stool, in my cough, in my secretion. It is coming. Therefore it is concluded that chemicals are produced by life, not life is produced by chemicals.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they are saying that once the seed of life, that is, the cells, the living cells, are built, then it continues automatically.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but who gives the seed? That is answered in Bhagavad-gītā: bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām (BG 7.10). Bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām. He gives the seeds, and He is life.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But the scientists are now trying to make the seed now.

Prabhupāda: Then kick on their face with boot. With boot, rascal. You are trying. That is rascaldom. We protest against this. "We are trying." What is this nonsense, "trying"? Do it immediately. Then we shall accept. Trying, everyone is trying. Just like a child is trying to build a house with this sand. So is that very nice proposal, that here will be house? That is childish. Then you accept that you are child in the field of knowledge. Don't pose yourself that you know everything, or your knowledge is everything. That is our protest. "We are trying." What is . . .? Trying—everyone is trying. What is the difference between the scientists and ordinary man?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are saying that they are coming very close.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that is also another foolishness. That is called will o' the wisp. The ass. Ass is trying to get the grass, and the washerman is showing only, and the ass is advancing, the grass is advancing. (laughter) You see? This is their theory.

Dr. Wolfe: But in all humility, Śrīla Prabhupāda, supposing that they would succeed in actually creating the living cell artificially, what would we say?

Prabhupāda: Well, what is the credit there? It is already there. So what credit he can get?

Karandhara: Best they just imitated what has already happened.

Dr. Wolfe: They imitated.

Prabhupāda: Imitated. Just like . . . that I explained also. That example is that when an imitation barking is there, people go and purchase ticket. And when real barking is there, nobody cares. This is their business. They are so fool that their government is purchasing the ticket, and they're hearing the imitation barking. That's all.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But once they are successful, they are going to make superbeings—they are called superbeings, superhuman beings, superanimals.

Prabhupāda: But they cannot . . . they cannot create even an ant, and now they are going to make superbeings. This is another foolishness. They cannot create even an ant, moving ant, and they're going to make superbeing. Just see. And we have to believe them. (laughter) We are not so fool. Your so-called scientists may be fools, but we are not so fools.

Yaśomatīnandana: You give the example of the potter who was dreaming . . .

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes, yes, That's it. A potter.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: This idea, Śrīla Prabhupāda, about the chemical evolution, this idea came from, I think, in 1920 by a Russian scientist. He is a biologist. His name is Oparin. O-p-a-r-i-n. So he demonstrated that in the . . . before biological evolution the atmosphere of the earth should be, he called, very much reducing. Reducing, that means it must be mostly full of hydrogens; no oxygen, very little oxygen, but mostly hydrogen. Then in due course, because of the reaction in these hydrogen compounds and the radiation from the sunlight, then these compounds form into different chemicals, which are . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a side study. But there was hydrogen. Wherefrom the hydrogen came? The scientists, simply they study in the middle. But they do not know what is the origin. Just like here is one aeroplane is coming, and you can say: "All of a sudden a light came out of the sea." Is that the study of this aeroplane? If we . . . the foolish person will see, "All of a sudden, in the sea there was a light." Is that scientific study? So your study is like that: "There was this, and all of a sudden, by chance . . ." That's it. That is not scientific study. We have to find out the original cause.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So in due course, if they create these amino acids . . . there are twenty amino acids which are necessary for the body, for the material body.

Prabhupāda: But it is already created. What is your credit?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they want to do it themselves.

Prabhupāda: You may do, but already . . . just like there is a soap factory. You start another soap factory. So what is your credit? It is already there.

Yaśomatīnandana: The big, big soap factory, I guess.

Prabhupāda: Yes. What is your credit? Yes. You can imitation, make an imitation. And you want to take credit, all credit, for the original creator, simply by imitating. You are so foolish. Why shall I give you the credit? I shall give credit to the origin. That is our philosophy.

Karandhara: When they discover a natural law, they name it after themselves, like "Newton's law." (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is already there, already there, and the rascal wants to take credit.

Yaśomatīnandana: They just adjust a little bit, and they say that they have conquered . . .

Prabhupāda: No adjustment. That is another foolishness. You cannot adjust. Even you cannot adjust a moment of nature's law. You cannot adjust.

Yaśomatīnandana: You just discover it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No discovery. You do not know, arrangement. This is already there.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Practically they are fighting against the laws of nature, but sometimes they find pleasure in doing this.

Prabhupāda: That is childish. Just like they build with the sand palatial building, the children, and they take pleasure in it. That's all. That is children's pleasure. That is not sane man's pleasure. Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān (SB 7.9.43). Māyā-sukhāya. This pleasure is māyā, and they are making humbug. Therefore they are vimūḍhān. Vimūḍhān, all foolish men.

Prahlāda Mahārāja said, māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān. The materialists, they have created a standard of happiness. That is māyā. That is not happiness. But for that māyā happiness, false happiness, they have beget a gorgeous arrangement. That's all. Therefore they are vimūḍhān. They are so vimūḍhān, so foolish. Now suppose they have created this nice, comfortable civilization, but they have not created the situation that they will be able to enjoy it. At any moment they will be kicked out, "Get out! Finished. All finished." So where is that guarantee that you will be able to enjoy this?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is why the scientists are saying that God didn't give us everything so that we can make very happy.

Prabhupāda: Then God is there. Accept. Then why do you say there is no God? Then God is life. Then everything comes from life. You have to accept. That is our proposal. If they accept that, "God has not given us the capacity," then they are intelligent. They are accepting God.

Karandhara: Well, they say: "God hasn't given us everything . . ."

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Karandhara: "He hasn't given us everything, because we are not able to live forever here."

Prabhupāda: Why? That means God is controller. You are controlled. You admit this.

Yaśomatīnandana: If these people are allowed to live forever, then they will make this place more than a hell, worse than hell. That's why they . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) God has given them everything, actually, to live peacefully and try to understand God, but that they will not do. They will do something to try to forget God. That is their aim.

Yaśomatīnandana: Prabhupāda, is it true that if a person is very sinful, he reduces some years from his life? If a person is very, very sinful, extremely sinful, then he reduces some . . .

Prabhupāda: Reduce or increase, what is the profit?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We see the practical example. If you are alcoholic . . .

Prabhupāda: Even if you reduce or increase—suppose you are to live for hundred years, if you make it hundred and ten—so what is your profit? And if you are to live for hundred years, reduce time ten years, so what is the profit? You cannot live here, that is a fact—reduce or increase. This is all nonsense. What is increase? The trees, they have more longer period, increased the period of life. Is, that kind of living is very profitable? What for increasing? To suffering. Your life is already suffering. Why you are covering this body? You cannot stand here, open body. That is suffering.

You are trying to save yourself from the suffering. This is life, struggle for existence. Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni karṣati (BG 15.7). Simply struggle. So if you increase your life for struggling again, then what is the profit? This is . . . the rascals, they do not understand. Even if you increase, what profit you will get? Your life is all suffering. So the foolish persons, they cannot understand. The real problem is how to stop your suffering. Reduce or increase, it doesn't matter. But that you cannot do. You'll have to die. This is your suffering. Nobody wants to die. You'll have to become old man. Suppose a old man, suffering from so many diseases, and he increases his life. What is the profit there?

Yaśomatīnandana: That is what they do by heart transplant.

Prabhupāda: This is all nonsense. Stop death; then it is an achievement. That's all. Stop disease, that is achievement. But that you cannot do. What is the profit reducing and increasing or decreasing?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. I am saying therefore disease, not "this disease" or "that disease." Disease mean any kind of disease. That is credit. That is credit. If you guarantee that, "Here is a chemical composition—when a man takes it, no more disease," that is credit. But you cannot do that. Then where is your credit? You simply struggle. The struggle increase. That's all. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). We shall come down? The water is coming or . . .?

Karandhara: Looks like the water is coming up, Prabhupāda.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The waves are very big.

Prabhupāda: (referring to sunrise) Now, such a huge quantity of coloring, wherefrom coming, red color? And it will disappear after few minutes. Have you got any control over it, scientist?

Karandhara: Now there is a big scarcity of dye, coloring dye.

Prabhupāda: Ah, take from here red color. Yes. They can increase the scarcity. That's all. That is in their power.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they will try to make more, reduce the scarcity.

Prabhupāda: Where is more? Now, because the petrol stock is decreasing, they are disturbed. Increase it. Increase it.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they are trying to make synthetic . . .

Prabhupāda: Again "trying," the same disease, "trying." (laughter) Same disease. Again "trying." That is called . . . that is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni karṣati (BG 15.7). They are simply struggle, struggling with the mind. That is their business. Prakṛti-sthāni karṣati. Because he is in this prakṛti, under the control of the material nature, prakṛti-sthāni—simply a struggle. And mental concoction: "Now we shall do it. Now we are trying. In future it will be done." Manaḥ. This is mind, mental concoction. Prakṛti is doing their own duty, by nature's law.

Now, by nature's law, the winter season is coming. Stop it. Stop it. Make it summer season. What you can do? Why so many cloths are required? Turn it into summer. You cannot do anything. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi . . . (BG 3.27). The prakṛti is going on, doing its own duty. You cannot check. Now the sun is rising. Now make it dark. Or in the darkness, ask the sun, "Get up." Where is your power? And still you are thinking that, "We are scientists. We are advancing." All foolishness. Just surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66). What you can do? You cannot even know how many stars and planets are there. Still unknown.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, they say in our universe there are about ten to the eleventh stars. They can count approximately. They say there are about 100 billion stars.

Prabhupāda: Count the sand grains. Count the sand grains.

Karandhara: They would make a rough estimate.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Even if you make a full estimate, then still, you are nothing in the face of the creator. Even if you can count.

Yaśomatīnandana: They are so stupid, Prabhupāda, that they do not recognize that the most important things in life is birth, death, old age and disease. And if they really want to conquer the nature, they should try to conquer birth, death, old age and disease.

Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14).

Yaśomatīnandana: Duratyayā, very hard to overcome.

Prabhupāda: It is not possible.

Hṛdayānanda: They have a whole new department, called gerontology, to stop death. In one article they had about twenty different methods, and they said all of them . . . or none of them have succeeded yet. But they were very confident.

Yaśomatīnandana: Even for them, there is some medicine in the Vedas. If they go to heavenly planets they will be able to live longer. They are so stupid, śūdra class, that they can't . . .

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Yaśomatīnandana: Even if they go to heavenly planets by following Vedas, still they will be able to live longer. But by their mundane efforts they will not be able to increase . . .

Prabhupāda: No, nobody . . . in the material world there is no question of living forever. That is not possible. That is in the spiritual world.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda? In the . . . when the scientists explain why there are so many varieties of living entities, they explain. They have an explanation.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They'll say: "At the time of evolution, the cells, the genes, sometimes . . ." When it is . . . normally the gene is perfectly copied for the next generation, but sometimes there is a mistake in copying. Just like in the printing press sometimes we do some mistakes. Just like that, there are some mistakes along the path of evolution. So those mistakes, sometimes they just, according to the circumstances, they can stand, and they form a different living entity because of the difference of the genes.

Prabhupāda: But the mistake is continuing forever, because you'll find the varieties of living entities ever existing. Therefore the mistake is permanent. So when it is permanent, it is not mistake; it is intelligence.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They'll say if there is no mistake, there will be only one living entity in the whole universe.

Prabhupāda: Why? Because you have got different mind, therefore you create different situation. Just like we are walking here. Not that everyone is coming to join us. Because they have got different mentality. They want to sleep. We want to rise early in the morning. Why this difference?

Śrutaśrava: It is a great mistake they're making.

Prabhupāda: It is not mistake. It is your desire. And exactly according to the desire, you get a body. It is not mistake.

Yaśomatīnandana: It is not a mistake.

Prabhupāda: No. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran loke tyajaty ante kalevaram (BG 8.6). At the time of death, whatever you think, exactly nature will give you a similar body. That's all. That is not in your hand. That is in the nature's hand. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27).

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But scientifically it can be proved that there is a mistake. It can be proved by, er . . .

Prabhupāda: Then that is your mistake. In the laws of nature there is no mistake. There is no mistake. Your mistake. Just like in the railway carriage there is first class, second class, third class. So you have purchased third-class ticket. By mistake, you can go to the first class and just give him, but you will not be allowed to stay there. So it is your mistake. But these first class, second class, third . . . that is not a mistake. That is arrangement. Similarly, these varieties . . . God is so clever that He knows that so many mistakes can be done, and so many varieties are there. As you commit mistake, you enter . . . "You come here. It is ready."

And it is very exact mathematically calculated. Because the nature is working in three modes, so you mix up these three modes, it becomes three into three equal to nine, and again you multiply nine into nine, equal eighty-one. Again eighty-one into eighty-one. So many varieties come. Therefore generally it is taken, 84,000,000 varieties . . . er, 8,400,000. That is already there. Just like government creates a prison house. Although the city is not constructed, but they construct a prison house. Why? The government knows that "There are so many rascals. They will be criminals; they must come here." So it is not government mistakes. Your mistake. You become criminal and come here. It is your mistake. Why should you be criminal? That is your mistake.

Yaśomatīnandana: And also, if nature made a mistake, then how could nature supply the necessities of all the living entities? After all . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, there is no mistake. Mayādhyakṣeṇa. It is said, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). Under the supervision of Kṛṣṇa, God, nature is working. How there can be mistake? In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is said, sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni vibharti durgā (Bs. 5.44). This nature is working just like shadow. Real direction is from God. Icchānurūpam api yasya ca ceṣṭate sā. By His will, nature is working. So how He can be mistaken? Nature is working under the will of God, so how there can be mistake in the part of God? There is no mistake.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They use these terms to explain their proposed theory, this terminology.

Prabhupāda: Which terminology?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Like "mistake" and all these things.

Prabhupāda: Mistake, there cannot be . . . that is the difference between God and ourself. We are living entity, God is also living entity. But He has no four defects. We have got four defects. We commit mistake, we are illusioned, our senses are imperfect and we cheat. God does not do all these things. That is the difference between God and ourselves. He does not commit mistake, He is not illusioned, He does not cheat, and His senses are perfect. Vedāhaṁ samatītāni (BG 7.26).

Dr. Wolfe: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in technological enlargement or prolongation of our senses, we are also defective, of course.

Prabhupāda: Because we are defective. This material existence means defective existence. These defection not there.

Dr. Wolfe: All the microscopes, and electric things, all these things, they are also defective.

Prabhupāda: Because it is made by the imperfect senses. So it must be defective. If you construct something with your defective knowledge, then it must be defective.

Karandhara: Even if they make a perfect microscope, they still have to look at it through their defective eyes. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) That's it. This is going on. Therefore whatever they are saying, they are all defective. Yes. That is our conclusion.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So it is just like playing with fire.

Prabhupāda: Mūḍha, mūḍha, mūḍha. Mūḍha. Defective means mūḍha.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they seem to be quite satisfied.

Prabhupāda: That, ass is also satisfied. By unnecessarily carrying the load of the washerman, he is satisfied. Everyone is satisfied. Even the worms of the stool, he is satisfied. That is nature's (laughs) law. He is satisfied. So this satisfaction.

Karandhara: The saying is, "Even the pauper is proud of his penny."

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is also . . . you see . . . in Vṛndāvana I showed you? The dogs were starving, but as soon as he gets another female dog, oh, he is satisfied, to have sex. Oh. You see? So is that satisfaction? He is starving. The belly has gone down, and still, he is satisfied with sex.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's called illusion.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is illusion. Actually, he is not satisfied.

Karandhara: You once gave the example, Prabhupāda, of the drunkards in New York.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Karandhara: If they just get a bottle of wine, they are satisfied, even though they are freezing and starving and have no place to stay.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they are satisfied. Real satisfaction will prevail when one knows God. That is real satisfaction. Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29). A devotee will see how by God's design the sea is working, how the sky is staying, how the sun is rising. He is satisfied, "Oh, how my Lord is great. How He has arranged." That is satisfaction

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But Śrīla Prabhupāda, these, the living entities, the jīvātmā within the . . . and the Paramātmā within, why the living entities suffering even the Paramātmā is directing the living entity within?

Prabhupāda: That is not very difficult. Government is always with you, but why you are suffering, and why one is enjoying? Government is not partial. You have created your situation to suffer. That's all. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says that, "You surrender to Me. I will give you all protection." But you will not do. You must suffer. Suffering is there. As soon as you are disobedient to God, immediately suffering begins. That is māyā. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says: "Now you give up all this nonsense business. Surrender to Me. I will give you all protection." That you will not do. Then you must suffer. That is the song:

māyār bośe jāccho bhese
khāccho hābuḍubu bhāi
(Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura)

That is our preaching, that "Why you are suffering? Just accept Kṛṣṇa; you will become happy." That is our preaching. So long you are under the clutches of . . . (break) (end)