731105 - Conversation B - Delhi

Conversations by Date, 1973

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

731105R2-DELHI - November 05, 1973 - 34:15 Minutes

Prabhupāda: Abodha-jātaḥ. Sadah. That the, the bodily, external duty, done exactly to the point, but did not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, abodha-jātaḥ. Just like people say: "What is the use of this saṅkīrtana? We are doing our duty. We are living very honestly." For such person it is impossible. You may live very honestly—you may do your duty very honestly—in spite of all these things, because you are not taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you are simply being defeated. And another of these things they make.

parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto

yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam

(SB 5.5.5)

He does not know what is his position, ātma-tattvam. So without this knowledge, whatever he is doing is for defeat. Without this human form of life to conquer over birth and death . . . and that is only possible, hariṁ vinā na mṛtim taranti. Without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, nobody can conquer over birth and death. That is not possible. So he could not conquer over birth and death; he made some temporary arrangement: good car, good house, good wife, and so many things, whatever. Whatever they are doing, even the cats and dogs are doing. That he does not know. Abodha-jātaḥ. He does not know how the transmigration of the soul is taking place, what he is going to be next life. These things, he does not know. So therefore, abodha-jātaḥ. From birth he is a rascal, fool. He did not enlighten to Kṛṣṇa consciousness or by accepting Kṛṣṇa's instruction—then he is defeated.

That is the whole world is going on. They are thinking like that: this busy-ness, very busy always, going this side, that side, that side. It is exactly like the dogs are doing: jump this side, this side (claps hands). That is not very important business—the dog jumping from this side to that side, and catching the ball or other . . . (laughing) So it is just like that activity. Monkey, whenever they stop, they do something, it (makes growling sound) (laughter).

These are activities like that. We see that, that there is no difference. It is the activities of the monkeys and donkeys, making this so-called busy man. We see . . . (indistinct) . . . but no, he is defeated; he does not know what is the aim of life.

Therefore Prabhodānanda Sarasvatī said, vidhi-mahendrādiś ca kīṭāyate (Caitanya-candrāmṛta 5). As the insect does not know what is the aim of life, jumping over the fire (makes insect sound) . . . insect. Kīṭa. So all these karmīs, they are kīṭa. Not, not only ordinary man; big . . . (indistinct) . . . even busy like Brahmā or Mahendra, the king of heaven. They are all karma-bandhānu. Yas tv indragopam athavendram aho sva-karma-bandhānurūpa. karma-bandhana. That whatever his karma may be, he has done some pious activities, and one has become Brahmā or Indra. And next life, he may be Brahmā. There is history that once Indra became hog. So next life, even Indra can become hog. karma-bandhana.

yas tv indragopam athavendram aho sva-karma-

bandhānurūpa-phala-bhājanam ātanoti

(Bs. 5.54)

Bandhānurūpa-phala, ātanoti. So beginning from the insect known as indra, indragopa, and up to that Indra. Yas tv indragopam athavendram. Athavendram. Yas tv indragopam athavendram aho sva-karma. Even he may be very . . . (indistinct) . . . but he is bound up by his own karma.

Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhājāṁ (Bs. 5.54). But those who have taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, their effects of karma is diminished. As Kṛṣṇa says . . . (indistinct) . . . that he has no result. He will be saved. Others will have to suffer or enjoy. And one who surrenders, he is already karma-phala; he is squared up, finished. If he does not give himself again to karma, simply yajñate karma, no other karma, then he is immune. So if you are already engaged in Kṛṣṇa's work, you are immune. And as soon as you work for any personal benefit—karma-bandhana. That's all.

Very good example: a soldier. So long as he is soldier, fighting, killing many men—his business is killing—he is . . . he is offered full benefit. And as soon as for his own account he kills one man, he is hanged. He cannot say: "Oh, I have . . . I have killed so many men, and I was awarded the gold medal. Now I have killed only one man, why you are hanging me?" No, no. Then "You will be hanged, because you have done for your own account. That was government's account, king's account." A good example. Same man who has fought in the battle and killed many men, as many, as largest number of men he kills, he becomes famous, hero, given medal. The same hero, as soon as he kills one man for his personal sense gratification, he is hanged.

These are the example, practical. In politics they accept so many forbidden things, but they are not punished. Sometimes they steal, go to the enemy's house, wife, and stealing documents. These are all criminal, but he is rewarded. Yajñānati karmanatro. Better for, even if you do something sinful, better it was for Kṛṣṇa's work. That is also taken as credit. Otherwise it is discredit. Therefore intelligent men, they, "I will have to work so hard to get some credit, why not do it for Kṛṣṇa, as for my credit?" That is intelligent.

kāmādīnāṁ kati na katidhā pālitā durnideśās

teṣāṁ jātā mayi na karuṇā na trapā nopaśāntiḥ

(Brs. 3.2.35, quoted in CC Madhya 22.16)

This is a verse from Caitanya-caritamrta . . . (indistinct) . . . find out kāmādīnāṁ. Find out.

Brahmānanda: But no one informed Gladstone.

Prabhupāda: Hah?

Brahmānanda: We were speaking of Gladstone, the English diplomat.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Brahmānanda: No one informed him of this. He only had māyā's encouragement, to encourage him, "Do this; do this," and not reap the benefit.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This . . . this is, the politician have never given. This is the first time they have given. The Western countries, they did not know. Kṛṣṇa is . . . (indistinct) . . . they did not know.

Brahmānanda: So we . . . we must inform the leaders and the scientists.

Prabhupāda: Yes. A little social, moral system, that was neglected. Moral system: "Thou shall not covet another's wife. Thou shall not kill," they never obey these things. They simply went to chance, that's all. Therefore . . . (indistinct) . . . now they are asking, "What you have done?" That "What you have done actually? You have simply cheated yourself." It's in Bhāgavatam?

Pradyumna: It's from Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Read it.

Pradyumna:

kāmādīnāṁ kati na katidhā pālitā durnideśās

teṣāṁ jātā mayi na karuṇā na trapā nopaśāntiḥ

utsṛjyaitān atha yadu-pate sāmprataṁ labdha-buddhis

tvām āyātaḥśaraṇam abhayaṁ māṁ niyuṅkṣvātma-dāsye

(Brs 3.2.35)

Prabhupāda: Rūpa Gosvāmī Mahārāja verse has spoken. Just see what is the verse.

Pradyumna: It does not mention. It doesn't mention at the beginning. It just begins . . . it just has oṁ vaiyai upati śabda.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Pradyumna: It just has oṁ vaiyai upati śabda. It does not mention where it comes from. It says, śarānagater prārthanā tathāhi Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 3.2.35.

Prabhupāda: Then it is from Rūpa Gosvāmī.

Brahmānanda: But how we can convince them that they will not reap the benefit? They're working so hard, and then they will die and not reap the benefit. If I just say that, or we say it, they will not believe, that . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no . . .

Brahmānanda: . . . we are talking abstraction.

Prabhupāda: . . . not that they will not reap the benefit. They will reap the benefit.

Brahmānanda: If they work for Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Brahmānanda: If they work for Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: No, he will not do that. But that is karma. They derive the benefit by accepting another body. So accept as . . . another body is failure. That is the failure of his life. Human life is meant for tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma (BG 4.9).

Brahmānanda: I see.

Prabhupāda: This is the success. That I was speaking . . .

Brahmānanda: I see.

Prabhupāda: . . . last night. That they don't know what is siddhi.

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: This is siddhi: to stop this process of birth and death. But these karmīs will not get that. Therefore it is difficult. Suppose I give you in charity something. So I will get it four times, or say a hundred times. I give you a hundred rupees for some good cause. So I will get one thousand, with compound interest. But to get that money, I will have to enter the womb of my mother again. So is that very good sense? To get the compound interest of one hundred rupees into one thousand rupees, I will have to take again birth. Is that good intelligence? The karmīs have to accept another body. That is their defeat. Human life was meant for stopping this birth and death, and the karmīs will not get that. Whatever he is doing for future gain, that he will get; but he will not be able to stop this birth and death. Therefore they are defeated.

Nak kete yatra bhanga. (To deter someone to begin a journey by cutting one's own nose.) There, there is a Bengali . . . in India, that, that if you find out somebody, or you are going somewhere, some good jātrā, but if you find out somebody in, in a . . . (indistinct) . . . whose nose is cut off, then you cannot. It is all inauspicious. So one enemy, or another person, he understood that, "My enemy tomorrow will go to such-and-such place for making some money." So he wanted to stop his journey, and cut your own nose. (laughter) "Now he cannot go." (indistinct) . . . Nak kete yatra bhanga. (To deter someone to begin a journey by cutting one's own nose.) He stopped his jātrā, but cut his own nose. It is like that. He will get some profit, from karmī point of view. He will take a birth, either Brahma's son or Indra's son or king's son, but he will again have to enter into the wife of Brahma or Indra, and enter again here, or take birth in this place. Then again another span of life for, say, millions of years. In this millions of years he commits so many sinful activities, and again become a cat and dog.

So your life, your entanglement, continues. If you finish this business of getting another birth, and go back to home, back to Godhead, that you lost, and you wanted to enjoy crores of rupees by becoming Birla's son—is that very good intelligence? Then, "No, I shall become Birla's son; I shall become Indra's son." And what he will do? He has become . . . will be entangled. Birla's son, that is means the perfection of life? No. Birla's son, if you misunderstand your life, without any guidance, "Oh, I have got so much money; let me enjoy wine and woman. What is this nonsense Kṛṣṇa consciousness?" then he will become next time a hog, a dog. All opportunity is lost. They do not know the science. Therefore abodha-jātaḥ, all rascals. They are not becoming victorious; they are being defeated, abodha-jātaḥ. (break)

Devotee (3): Is it very huge, or just . . .?

Prabhupāda: Not very huge. Size of a . . . say more than a yard.

Devotee (3): More than a yard.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I remember distinctly.

Devotee (3): But bigger than a star?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee (3): Bigger than a star?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Devotee (3): Much bigger.

Prabhupāda: And there was light, just like moonlight.

Devotee (3): Oh, really?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (3): Broadcasting.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (3): Oh.

Prabhupāda: Not exactly . . .

Devotee (3): Oh.

Prabhupāda: . . . moonlight, but there was light. And if you stay for an hour and so, they'll disappear. Just like other birds appear and disappear. How many things are there in the sky, what do they know? They cannot go even to the moon planet.

(break) What is that?

Brahmānanda: Tape recorder.

Prabhupāda: That, uh, that was being played now?

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: It is nice?

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Play it. (break)

Pradyumna: (reading) Dehadhir na sarathya . . .

Prabhupāda: Dehadhih na sarathya. Go on.

Pradyumna: Ksyanayam anartha ity asankhya artha paravabhode hari na svarupa vibhavo ajnana ktras tapa tapati tattvatah hetu . . .

Prabhupāda: Because the, the conception of all these men, which is not. Therefore abodha-jātaḥ. They don't understand that, "I am not the body." They do not even get this body of a Birla's son or Rockefeller's son. But I am not this body. So I remain in ignorance. And bodily concept of life, whatever you do, there is karma. So I remain in ignorance. Even though I get the body of a son of Rockefeller or Birla—you can get—so what is the benefit? I'll remain in ignorance. I do not know what is my position, what is my duty. Therefore he is defeated. And so long I shall remain in ignorance, I will have to accept karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9), śarīra-bandhanaḥ, entanglement. Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura.

Pradyumna: (reading) Tarhi punyam kartavyam iti cen na.

Prabhupāda: The result: that has no pious activity. No. That is nonsense.

Pradyumna: Na tasyapi samsara hetaktvena klesa ekatvam.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Even if you get a Birla son's body or king's body, that threefold miseries of material life you have to accept, as we have mentioned. Then?

Pradyumna: Tasmad punya papayor nirasa tava vijnana.

Prabhupāda: Don't do pious or impious. Simply be engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. That is expressed by . . . (indistinct) . . . śubhāśubha karma sa bhakti (CC Adi 1.94). Can you find? In Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Śubhāśubha karma. Whatever books we are giving, you must read, so you can . . . we have given Sanskrit also. Simply read, and you will be sane man.

Pradyumna: It's a quote from Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: No, śubhāśubha karma sa bhakti.

Pradyumna: Oh. In the Sanskrit,

śubhāśubha-parityāgī

bhaktimān yaḥ sa me priyaḥ

(BG 12.17)

Prabhupāda: The big lawyers, they have big law books . . . (indistinct) . . . to give reference.

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . they take from the library all the books and give them . . . (indistinct)

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . there was one big lawyer . . . (indistinct) . . . so . . . (indistinct) . . . yes . . . (indistinct) . . . just to teach him law. . . . (indistinct) . . .? Yes . . . (indistinct) . . . "Yes, my lord. Just to teach him law." So he criticized him, that he has . . . (indistinct)

Brahmānanda: That means then, "If you go against me in that case, that you don't know law."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Śubhāśubha karma sa bhakti . . . (indistinct) . . . (CC Adi 1.94)

Pradyumna: Nothing beginning with śubhāśubha.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. (break) . . . kintu ca bhakti-bhājām. (Bs. 5.54) Read that commentary . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) (reading) kari punya kartavyam iti cen na tasyapi samsara hetaktvena klesa hetakta tasmad punya papayor virasatam jnanam eva samvarsana . . . samvarsaniyam eva ity aha parabhava karma paratantra tad eva jivasya bandhana. Because according to your karma, you are becoming entangled, and that is your material existence. That is your material existence.

Jivasya bandhana sah, sah ajñāna krta sthavad eva lampati. Ajñāna: he does not know. He, he does not know that, "I am not this body," so what is the use of getting a better body? This is our . . . (indistinct) . . . if you are not this body—suppose you are suffering from some disease, you are uncomfortable—if I say: "All right, let me change your dress," what is the use? (laughing) You are suffering. I am suffering from fever, and you change my dress, shall I be relieved? This is going on. The karmī, karmīs, they are simply changing dress: "All right, I have got fever. I have got this dress—change." But make treatment, so that you can be, become relieved from the fever. What is the use of changing dress?

(reading) Samsara hetaktvena klesa hetakta tasmad punya papayor virasatam jnanam eva varsaniya eva ity aha parabhava karma paratantra tad eva jivasya bandhana sahaja ajnana krta sthavad eva bhavati yavan na jijnasatah eti. So long one does not aware that, "I am this dress," or "I am beyond this dress . . ."

(break) tavad karmani nanas santi yavad kriya punya papa karmany suh sthavad idam manah hi karmatmakam karma svabhava eva syat yena karmatmakena manasa sarira bhava. Yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam, parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto. Very important verse. Every verse of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. There is no more any literature throughout the whole world, such authoritative statement of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. (sings)

parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto

yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam

yāvat kriyās tāvad idaṁ mano vai

karmātmakaṁ yena śarīra-bandhaḥ

(SB 5.5.5)

Karmātmakaṁ. Manah. Karmātmakaṁ. "I am thinking always." Just like one Marwari gentleman in Calcutta, that a big merchant in share exchange. So he monopolized one share from Kamarhati state. So he could not sleep at night, and at the time of death, "Kamarhati, Kamarhati, Kamarhati." So he became like the Kamarhati . . . (indistinct) . . . and you can check it. Where is your science to check it? You cannot check even death. What he will check what he is going to accept another body? That is not in your power.

Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ (BG 3.27). That is in the hands of prakṛti, māyā: "Come on, take this body, rascal." How you will avoid it? They do not know. They do not know. They think, "I have conquered. I have got three crores of rupees." Speculating on . . . (indistinct) . . . and share, that's all. Then parābhavaḥ: his three crores of rupees remain with his bank, and he goes with his wife, and he accepts another body. And he is rascal number one. Abodha. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)