731103 - Conversation - Delhi
- sat-saṅgān mukta-duḥsaṅgo
- hātuṁ notsahate budhaḥ
- kīrtyamānaṁ yaśo yasya
- sakṛd ākarṇya rocanam
- (SB 1.10.11)
Prabhupāda: Where . . . where it is quoted from?
Pradyumna: Quoted from Bhāgavatam, Śrīmad Bhāgavatam, 1.10.11.
Pradyumna: First Canto, Tenth Chapter, eleventh verse.
Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) (pause)
Pradyumna: "The intelligent, who have understood the Supreme Lord in association with pure devotees and have become freed from bad materialistic association, can never avoid hearing the glories of the Lord, even though they have heard them only once."
Prabhupāda: Hmm. So this will protect you from the influence of māyā. Read that again.
Pradyumna: Sanskrit or translation?
Pradyumna: "The intelligent, who have understood the Supreme Lord in association with pure devotees and have become freed . . ."
Prabhupāda: "In association with pure devotees." So if you are karmīs, then where is the . . . what is the value of this association? Sat-saṅga. Sat-saṅga means assembly, discussion. Bodhayantaḥ parasparam, tuṣyanti ca ramanti ca (BG 10.9). If you are not interested in association, discussion, then you are finished. So? Karmīs, they are fools and rascals. When you have got this center, it is not that you should be engaged from morning till you go to bed for sense gratification. That is not life. That is karmī's life. You have no time for sat-saṅga, for association.
You cannot make any progress by this sort of karmī's life. We have to work for organization, but not that whole day and night engaged and no sat-saṅga. That is a misguided policy, and it will spoil the whole structure. In Los Angeles, they regularly assemble during ārati and class. If this regulative principle is lost, then you are karmīs. They must come back by six o'clock, suspending all other duty, and assemble by seven o'clock. Joint mess program is not good, "You bring some money. You bring some money and spend us jointly for eating, sleeping," that is called joint mess. You know the joint mess, this word? What is that, meaning?
Brahmānanda: Well, it means . . . I thought it had something to do with civil servants, where they all live in a dormitory and eat in a large hall.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Brahmānanda: And they all contribute . . .
Brahmānanda: . . . part of their salary.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) So if you make that association, that will not help you. Joint mess, dormitory. Or joint family. Just like in India: There are five brothers. They're earning. Father and mother is the leader. They're handing over the money, and the father, mother managing. That is Indian system, a joint family. So joint family or joint mess, the same thing. So if you make like that, a center, then it is no good. You must get spiritual strength. Karmī strength will not help you. What they are doing in Babar Road, these girls?
Gurudāsa: They're preparing some śṛṅgāra for Deity.
Prabhupāda: Why not here? Why go to Babar Road, spend twenty rupees?
Gurudāsa: According to them, that they sometimes they have to go in the center of town.
Prabhupāda: Nobody has intelligence. It will not . . . it will not stay. It will be spoiled. Joint mess organization. In Los Angeles, they're also doing business—they're going to sell books. But regulative principle is observed. Huge expenditure they have got. No center is so improved as Los Angeles. We have purchased six houses. And I wanted immediately two lakhs, immediately sent. You cannot pay. You simply want to take. In India, nobody can pay. If I want two lakhs, nobody can pay. But all this money have been taken from USA. I asked Bali- mardana, I asked Karandhara. They paid me for this Bombay affair sixteen, eighteen lakhs.
(break) . . . and breathing also does not stop. It goes very slow. Therefore he cannot be immortal. And Bhagavad-gītā proposes that is wonderful thing, if you can stop death. And whole spiritual life means how to stop death. That is Bhāgavatam's instruction: "Don't accept guru, don't accept father, don't accept . . . or don't be father, don't be mother, don't be . . . if you cannot stop death." Either you don't accept, or don't become. Just like they want guru. So don't accept a guru who cannot stop your death. And from guru's side, it is advised, "Don't become guru if you cannot stop the death of your disciple." This is Bhāgavatam's statement. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to stop death, live eternally with Kṛṣṇa, go back to home, back to Godhead. This is our movement.
So our guru gives us this opportunity: no more death. Tyaktvā . . . after leaving this body, you don't accept any more material body. And if you don't accept material body, then there is no death. As soon as your spiritual . . . you remain in spiritual body, there is no death. There is no birth also. Death is concomitant where birth is there. If the death is stopped, then there is no birth. And if there is no birth, there is no disease, there is no old age. This is the process. So birth, death, old age, disease can be stopped only by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So if you don't like to be Kṛṣṇa conscious, then what is the use of becoming your disciple, and if the guru, if he cannot stop your death, birth and death, then what is your becoming guru? So 'mṛtatvāya kalpate. Yaṁ hi na vyathayanty ete puruṣaṁ puruṣarṣabha (BG 2.15). Find out this verse. Yaṁ hi na vyathayanty ete. Śrutakīrti: Y-a-m?
Prabhupāda: Yeah, y-a-m. Yaṁ hi . . . get this light on. (break) . . . there is birth and death, old age. That is liberation. That is siddhi. That is perfection. These rascals are making plans, material plans. Jawaharlal Nehru made plan of this New Delhi. But he is kicked out: "Go out!" And now he has become a dog in Switzerland.
Śrutakīrti: In Sweden.
Prabhupāda: In Sweden.
Śrutakīrti: He's one of two dogs in Sweden.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Śrīdhara Mahārāja told me. Some astrologer has . . .
Brahmānanda: He's taken his birth there.
Prabhupāda: So they, these so-called leaders are so fools that they . . . therefore they don't believe in next life. Because that is very horrible for them. But the next life is there. Just like we, we, we have our next life. We had our previous life, then now another life, another life. So this simple thing they cannot understand. Nature is controlling this next life, next life. Otherwise why so many varieties of life? So they have no brain. They are simply making plan for the fifty years' duration of life. That's all. And even from practical point of view, suppose you are constructing a very nice house, and if you know that next day you'll be kicked out, you'll die, will you do that? But it is a fact. Next day or two days after, you'll die. That's a fact. So first of all, make arrangement that you'll not die, you'll be able to live here. That is their foolishness.
Śyāmasundara: Sometimes they take refuge in the idea that, "My family will live on," or "my species," or "my . . ."
Prabhupāda: That's . . .
Śyāmasundara: ". . . children . . ."
Prabhupāda: . . . all right. The family will live on not forever. They'll live also, say, for few days. Just we go sometimes in . . . just like in England, the castles are there, very old castle, thousand years, two thousand. Even this Westminster Abbey and palace. But which king has lived for there permanently? And now, if you know more, if the king has, by his work, become something else . . . not necessarily he'll become a king in that house. He may become a dog there. This science they do not know. And they are proud of their education, culture. Suppose you have constructed this Vṛndāvana temple or Bombay temple. It is also certain we shall not live, but our attempt to construct that temple will be recorded in Kṛṣṇa.
Śyāmasundara: Hmm. That's true.
Prabhupāda: Yes. "Because he has spent his energy for My service." That will be our gain. Others, they, whatever they are working . . . ko vārtha āpto 'bhajatāṁ sva-dharmataḥ. Find out this verse. Ko vā. Ko vārtha āpto 'bhajatāṁ sva-dharmataḥ. This is in Bhāgavatam.
- tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer
- bhajann apakvo 'tha patet tato yadi
- yatra ābhadram abhūd amuṣya kiṁ
- ko vārtha āpto 'bhajatāṁ sva-dharmataḥ
- (SB 1.5.17)
Tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer. Just like many of our disciples, as a matter of civilized man, they should have remained at home, obedient to the parents, get married and live peacefully with father and mother. Of course, these European, American boys they do not do that. But it is expected that should be like that. Just like yourself: you should have lived with your father. He also. But you did not do this. So take it for granted, out of sentiment you took to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Tyaktvā sva-dharmam. To live family life, peaceful life, obedient life to the fathers and mother, this is called sva-dharma.
So one gives up this sva-dharma, tyaktvā sva-dharmam, and takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, but some way or other—by association, by māyā's trick—again he falls down, just like many of our students have gone . . . not many, a few. So Bhāgavatam says, yatra kva vābhadram abhūd amuṣya kim that, "What is the wrong there?" Even if he has fallen down half way, still there is no wrong. He has gained something. That much service which he has already given to Kṛṣṇa, that is recorded. That is recorded. That is to his credit: "So this living entity has given service." But other man, he's very honestly living as a good citizen, as a good family member and good brāhmiṇ, good kṣatriya . . . so ko vārtha āpto 'bhajatāṁ sva-dharmataḥ. He's sticking to his own principle of life, but he's not a Kṛṣṇa conscious devotee, then what is his gain? He'll simply take the fruits of his material activities and he'll have to accept another body according to that.
But here, as it is assured in Bhagavad-gītā, that śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo sanyate (BG 6.41): this man, who took by sentiment Kṛṣṇa consciousness but could not follow it to the end—by some way or other, he has fallen—but he'll be given chance to take birth as a human being, guaranteed, in rich family or in nice devotee family, yogī family or brāhmiṇ family. So he'll be given chance. But that man will take only the reaction of his activities. karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). So if he has acted like cats and dogs, he'll get the cats and dogs. But here it is guaranteed. Here it is guaranteed that he's going to get another human body and very nice family.
Śyāmasundara: Does that guarantee that he'll become a devotee again?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because he had already practiced. So if he, if he remembers, if he's intelligent that, "I've got this nice position, according to śāstra, because I had some good devotional activities in my past life. Now let me finish. I'll not fall down. I have no economic problem. I have got so much facilities. So let me advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . ." If he gets this . . . he'll get that sense.
Śyāmasundara: He automatically gets that . . . (indistinct) . . . truth.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Hmm.
Śyāmasundara: So he must come back to that point again, starting there.
Prabhupāda: Just like you have given. Your children are given the good chance.
Śyāmasundara: Ah, yeah.
Prabhupāda: The Sarasvatī's given chance. Now he's, from very childhood, she's chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare . . .
Prabhupāda: He's (she's) criticizing: "Mālatī, this old man is smoking." He's (she's) getting the saṁskāra from the childhood, as we got it from good father. Yes. So here is a chance. And that will not . . . it is not childish, Sarasvatī's chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. In London, she would finish sixteen rounds?
Prabhupāda: Six. She was . . . just see. She has got determination.
Prabhupāda: And all the children. So that will not go in vain.
Prabhupāda: Never go in vain. This is her . . . she had executed devotional service in her past life. Therefore from the very beginning of her life she's in association of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Very beginning. This is the chance. Now it is the duty of the father and mother, and when she grows up it is her duty to finish this business, go to back to home. This is chance. So where is the loss? Even she failed last life, then where is the loss? She's getting another chance, whereas the ordinary karmīs, they'll not get that chance. That is explained. Read it.
Śrutakīrti: "One who has forsaken his material occupation to engage in the devotional service of the Lord may sometimes fall down while in an immature stage, yet there is no danger of his being unsuccessful. On the other hand, a nondevotee, though fully engaged in occupational duties, does not gain anything."
Prabhupāda: That is the translation. Purport?
Śrutakīrti: Purport: "As far as the duties of mankind are concerned. There are innumerable duties. Every man is duty-bound, not only to his parents, family members, society, country, humanity, other living beings, the demigods, etc., but also to the great philosophers, poets, scientists, etc. It is enjoined in the scriptures that one can relinquish all such duties and surrender unto the service of the Lord. So if one does so and becomes successful in the discharge of his devotional service unto the Lord, it is well and good."
"But it so happens sometimes that one surrenders himself unto the service of the Lord by some temporary sentiment and in the long run, due to so many other reasons, he falls down from the path of service by undesirable association. There are so many instances of this in the histories. Bharata Mahārāja was obliged to take his birth as a stag due to his intimate attachment to a stag. He thought of this stag when he died. As such, in the next birth he became a stag, although he did not forget the incidents of his previous birth. Similarly, Citraketu also fell down due to his offense . . ."
Prabhupāda: Therefore we forbid to take to the karmī's life. Because at the time of death, if he remains a karmī, then he'll have to take birth as a karmī. That is the risk. So this regulative life, holding class, chanting, that will not make us fall down. That is essential. It is essential, regulative . . . follow the regulative principle, chanting sixteen rounds, holding class. You can do anything, but this will keep us alive to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness platform. If you neglect that, then that is very risky. Even if you get next life birth in a rich man's family, that is not guarantee.
Because generally, rich man's sons, they go astray. They get money for nothing and they want to squander it. And material world, if you have got money, so many bad associates will come and help you to squander your money and spoil your life. Because you have got money, then so many friends will come. As soon as you have no money, nobody will come. Even your wife, children will not come. (laughs) Therefore hariṣye tad dhanaṁ śanaiḥ. Kṛṣṇa first of all takes away the money, makes him poor so that everyone will neglect him, and because he's Kṛṣṇa conscious, he'll take Kṛṣṇa: "Sir, I have no other alternative. (laughing) Please give me protection." That is also another Kṛṣṇa's policy, special favor, that "This man wanted Me. Now he's going astray. All right. That's all right. Take everything of his . . ." (laughs)
Śyāmasundara: Like that man Patrick. Three businesses failed.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That was my case also. Since my Guru Mahārāja ordered me that, "You do this." But I thought that "Let me become first of all rich man. Then I shall do," so He . . . every business was . . .
Śyāmasundara: Maybe that is my case also. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: That is special favor. In the beginning I was thinking, "Now my Godbrothers, they have taken sannyāsa. They are begging from door to door. Why shall I beg? Let me earn money and start Kṛṣṇa consciousness." But that never happened. (laughing) So I had to . . . I was obliged to take the dress of my Godbrother and preach, instead of earning money. Yes. Some astrologer told me that I should have been a man like a Birla. And I got all those chances in the chemical line, to become . . . now I am bigger than Birla. (laughter) That's all right. But even in business field, there were signs that in money field . . . I got so many good chances. But everything . . . Dr. Kartik Chandra Bose, he appreciated my activities, "Very intelligent boy." He certified to my father-in-law. This is the way of becoming rich man.
Śyāmasundara: What happened?
Śyāmasundara: Why your business didn't . . .
Prabhupāda: Something happened, and everything was finished. That is Kṛṣṇa's grace. Just like something has happened wonderful, so that is also Kṛṣṇa's grace.
Śyāmasundara: People stopped purchasing?
Śyāmasundara: People stopped purchasing?
Prabhupāda: No. Just like Dr. Bose's laboratory. So Dr. Bose's laboratory, I was manager. Then I took his agency, very good terms. I was earning money like anything. But the next manager, he became envious. He began to poison Dr. Bose, to cut off our relationship. So it happened. Then, when I was Dr. Bose's agent, I become so much famous that Bengal Chemical, the biggest chemical factory, he . . . they wanted to give me the agency. If I would have taken that agency, I would have been the richest man in the chemical world. You see?
But they made some condition. So I did not accept it. I wanted in my condition. That is the very little . . . but I was puffed-up, that "I am such a big . . . and this man is flattering. So I must get my condition fulfilled." So I did not accept it. The Smith Stanistreet gave me agency. Because in my work, in Dr. Bose's laboratory, I did it very creditably. So every other manufacturers, they became attracted to me, how to get me. The Smith Stanistreet Company, Bikepala Company, Bose's . . . Bengal Chemical Company, they all wanted me. And I thought, "Oh, everyone wants me." So, so I refused. And later on there was a clique between Dr. Bose and me. So I lost everything. Then I started my own laboratory. Somehow or other there was something, and . . .
Śyāmasundara: Oh, I see.
Śyāmasundara: In Bombay you were having your own business, then?
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, that is small manufacturing. So I got very, very good chance. But Kṛṣṇa did not allow it. He wanted me to come to this point. That is my practical experience. And now I'm seeing that it is Kṛṣṇa's so much favor. You see? Yasyāham anugṛhnāmi . . . (SB 10.88.8) It is, it is, actually it is His grace. "What he'll do by becoming Birla, rich man like Birla?" That was Kṛṣṇa's plan. "Come here. Do this work." You see? My Guru Mahārāja ordered. Kṛṣṇa wanted. I was resisting Him. That's all. I was actually very expert businessman in chemical line. I did it very creditably in Bose's laboratory as manager and my own business. And everyone knows. Even in manufacturing also.
Śyāmasundara: Yeah, with that same experience now you've organized a worldwide society . . .
Śyāmasundara: . . . and that's a big business.
Śyāmasundara: Difficult work.
Brahmānanda: Just like before coming to India, in Japan, with simply five thousand dollars you took fifty thousand dollars' worth of merchandise.
Brahmānanda: And you brought it, had it sent . . .
Brahmānanda: And then everything . . .
Śyāmasundara: Life Members . . .
Brahmānanda: And then you devised the program for distributing them.
Prabhupāda: Yes, practically India's, our, whatever we have got, it is starting with that five thousand dollars.
Śyāmasundara: Five thousand dollars.
Brahmānanda: But it's like you were investing, taking goods on credit, and . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes. And this membership became successful.
Brahmānanda: Then you devised the method for distribution.
Prabhupāda: This membership.
Śyāmasundara: Even the way you went to America in the beginning. You couldn't take money . . .
Śyāmasundara: . . . so you had some books . . .
Prabhupāda: Some books. Yes.
Śyāmasundara: . . . published.
Prabhupāda: That intelligence gives me, Kṛṣṇa, "You do this." (laughs) Buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi tam. Yes. And in my materialistic life, He was taking away my intelligence. Just like this Bose, Bengal Chemical agency, I should have accepted immediately. Such a big concern. Simply by sitting, I would have brought ten thousand rupees per month in those days. But there was no good intelligence. I thought, "No, I cannot accept your terms. You must accept . . ." Because I was at that time young man, puffed-up, no brain, no sober brain. They were so attracted with me, they would have given later on all facilities. But I did not accept. Similarly, Smith Stanistreet, they were also very good company.
Śyāmasundara: Smith's . . .?
Prabhupāda: Smith Stanistreet, an English company. They gave me an agency. So some of my enemy . . . he was my . . . he was my employer, but he gave information that I am also manufacturing now drug and chemical works. So they informed them that, "He's pushing his own goods, not your goods." They . . . he wanted that agency. Yes. In this way, because as soon as you come in the . . . even in the spiritual field, my Godbrothers are envious. You see? So as soon as you become successful, there will be many enemies. That is natural. That is the sign of success. In your business, if there are many enemies, competitor, that means you are successful. So anyway, Kṛṣṇa has brought me to the right path. So I may not fall down. That's all. (laughter)
When I was reading this verse, that yasyāham anugṛhnāmi hariṣye tad dhanaṁ śanaiḥ (SB 10.88.8), Kṛṣṇa said that "When I show somebody My special favor, I take away all his money," I became shuddered: "So Kṛṣṇa will take my all money? If He is spe . . ." (laughs) And actually that happened. He took my all money, all family, all friends and everything. (laughs) And He asked me, "Go to America. You'll get many money, much money, many friends. You go ahead. Come here." Yes. That was His intention. And I was sticking to limited money, limited friends, limited society. This is special favor.
Brahmānanda: Just like in Bombay you mentioned that Lilavati Munshi . . . there was one house . . .
Brahmānanda: . . . and you were trying to get that house . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes, and she took away.
Brahmānanda: . . . and you were prevented.
Prabhupāda: She took away. Because I was trying to organize a League of Devotees from that house, and Kṛṣṇa wanted, "What is this nonsense? You are stick here, in Jhansi? You come here, in open field." That was Kṛṣṇa's intent. But I thought that "Even Kṛṣṇa took away this?" This Lilavati Munshi.
Śyāmasundara: Now her institution is . . .
Prabhupāda: But my intention was to start this movement.
Prabhupāda: I was simply planning in different way. Therefore Kṛṣṇa's favor. I never deviated from this plan. Since I heard it from my Guru Mahārāja, I've simply planning how to do it successfully. But I thought at that time that, "I'll be able to do it if I get some money. Let me do some business for the time." That I was thinking. But Kṛṣṇa said: "Even if you are pauper, you try; you'll get everything." But I thought, "Without money, how this can be done?" That was difference of opinion with Kṛṣṇa, argument. And I was dreaming also, Guru Mahārāja asking me, "Come on." So I was going. So I was, "Oh, I have to go? I have to take sannyāsa?" (laughs)
Śyāmasundara: You, you dreaming?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru Mahārāja said, "Come. Come with me." I was going. But that . . . many things happened before this. Yes. And at last it became, in America.
Śyāmasundara: Did you tell everyone you were leaving, or you simply disappeared?
Prabhupāda: No, I never said. Oh, why shall I? I lost all friends, money, everything.
Gurudāsa: I met one gentleman from Allahabad . . .
Prabhupāda: Aiye, aiye, aiye.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Get this light.
(break) . . . to this point, and you have joined. Do it nicely. It is the greatest movement for making the whole human civilization happy. Take it seriously. Don't . . .
Tejiyas: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Mr. S. Domi Singh, he's a . . . (break) (end)