730901 - Conversation B - London

Conversations by Date, 1973

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

730901R2-LONDON - September 01, 1973 - 25:38 Minutes

Prabhupāda: So you can test. Just like if you are eating, you can understand how much you are getting strength, how much you are satisfied. You haven't got to ask anybody. Similarly, if you are actually engaged in religious principles, the test is how much you are detached from material attraction and how much you are attached to God. This is the test. Anyone can see whether I am increasing my attachment for dog or whether I am increasing my attachment for God. That's all. This is test.

Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). That is bhakti. Bhakti means God-realization. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55): "One can understand Me only through bhakti." So that is first-class religion, bhakti. So if you have got bhakti, then you will realize God daily, every moment. That is real understanding. So by becoming a follower of . . . Anukul . . . Thakur, whether we have developed that Kṛṣṇa consciousness or not, that is the test. But how can I say? It is up to you. That is up to you.

Caitanya Mahāprabhu taught us these things. He was mad after Kṛṣṇa by His personal . . . govinda-viraheṇa me. Śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ govinda-viraheṇa me.

yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa cakṣuṣā prāvṛṣāyitam

śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ govinda-viraheṇa me

(CC Antya 20.39, Śikṣāṣṭaka 7)

This is the highest developments of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He is thinking, yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa: one moment as twelve years. "Why . . . where is Kṛṣṇa? I could not see Him." Yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa. Nimeṣa means moment, and yugāyitaṁ means twelve years. Yugāyitaṁ, cakṣuṣā prāvṛṣāyitam: "Crying like torrents of rain," śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ, "the whole world is vacant." Why? Govinda-viraheṇa me: "I cannot see Govinda." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The Gosvāmīs, next Caitanya Mahāprabhu, the Gosvāmīs, they are saying, he rādhe he vraja-devike he lalite he nanda-sūno kutaḥ (Ṣaḍ-gosvāmy-aṣṭaka 8): "Where you are all?" Śrī-govardhana-kalpa-pādapa-tale kālindī-vane kutaḥ: "Are you under the Govardhana Hill or on the bank of the Yamuna River? Where you are? Where you are?" They are searching: ghoṣantāv iti sarvato vraja-pure. In this way they are searching Kṛṣṇa, all over Vṛndāvana. Vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau śrī.

So this is Kṛṣṇa consciousness—when one becomes mad after Kṛṣṇa, "How to see Him? How to see Him?" Not that "I see already. Finished business." No. How to see Him. How to see Him: "Where He is? Where He is? Where He is?" Increasing this intense love for Kṛṣṇa, that is wanted. Śūnyāyitaṁ jagat: whole world is vacant. Just like . . . this is very practical. If somebody loves somebody and if he is not to be seen, he thinks that the whole world is vacant. We can perceive sometimes, if someone I love is dead, somebody says, "What is the use of this world? I don't want any more." But that is for the moment. That is not . . . (indistinct)

Guest: (indistinct) . . . temporary.

Prabhupāda: But sometimes it happens. Similarly, when we will be mad for Kṛṣṇa, that is the perfection of life. We should be very, very serious to see Kṛṣṇa. At least this attitude will help us: "Where is Kṛṣṇa? How I will see Him? How I would meet Him?" That is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ govinda-viraheṇa me. What is . . . Anukul . . . Thakur's philosophy?

Guest: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Eh? You do not know?

Guest: No, I know . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Then how you become disciple of him?

Guest: That was a long time ago.

Prabhupāda: Without knowing his philosophy, how you have become a disciple?

Guest: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guest: . . . (indistinct)

(pause)

Prabhupāda: So you don't feel cold by this dress?

Guest: (laughs)

Prabhupāda: You don't feel cold?

Guest: No, no . . . (indistinct) . . . what would be the situation of a young man who has already been initiated by a other guru, and now he's . . . (indistinct) . . .?

Prabhupāda: Other guru. . . whether he is guru or not, first of all you have to see.

Guest: Hmm.

Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of guru?

Guest: A other spiritual master.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . .?

Guest: A spiritual master.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but who is the spiritual master?

Guest: And now he would like to be initiated by you.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. I mean to say, one should know who is guru. Guru, there are so many. There is one guru, guru-ji, then another guru-ji has come.

(aside) All right.

So one should know who is guru. First of all one should know what is guru, what is the meaning of guru.

Guest: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That's all right. First of all you know what is guru.

Indian guest: The definition of guru.

Prabhupāda:

tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta

jijñāsuḥśreya uttamam

śābde pare ca niṣṇātaṁ

brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam

(SB 11.3.21)

This is the definition. Guruṁ prapadyeta: one should surrender to guru. And who is a candidate he is advised to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, ah, surrender to guru? Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ. Jijñāsuḥ means one who is very seriously enquiring about Kṛṣṇa, or God. Kṛṣṇa means God; God means Kṛṣṇa. He is required to be a disciple, tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ. Not ordinary man. Who is enquiring about worldly things, he doesn't require a guru. He doesn't require a guru. Guru is not a thing—just like we take one cat or dog, we shall keep also one guru. Not like that. One must be very seriously inquisitive to know about the transcendental science about Kṛṣṇa; then he requires a guru. Otherwise there is no need of keeping one guru, as order supplier. No. That is not.

Then the next question: Who will become guru? Śābde pare ca niṣṇātaṁ: one who is well versed in the Vedic literature. He knows the purpose of Vedic knowledge. He is guru, śābde pare ca niṣṇātaṁ. How I shall understand that he is well versed in Vedic knowledge? Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam: he has taken shelter of the Supreme Brahman, ending all material . . . (indistinct) . . . this is the definition of guru, and this is the definition of disciple. Disciple means he must be serious to know about the Supreme, and guru means one who knows, following the Supreme, and he has no more any material suffering. That's all.

But . . . so thorough knowledge of the Supreme. But it is not difficult. Just like Kṛṣṇa says:

evaṁ paramparā-prāptam

imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ

(BG 4.2)

This science, transcendental science:

imaṁ vivasvate yogam

proktavān aham avyayam

(BG 4.1)

"I spoke this science of Kṛṣṇa, or science of understanding God, to the sun-god, Vivasvān." The present sun-god, or the predominating president of the sun planet, he is called Vivasvān. His son, Manu, Vaivasvata Manu: vivasvān manave prāha manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt.

evaṁ paramparā-prāptam

imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ

sa kāleneha

yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa

(BG 4.2)

So these things are all explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Therefore guru means who is taking the words of the Supreme by paramparā system. Just like from Vivasvān, Manu; from Manu, Ikṣvāku; from Ikṣvāku to others. Same way.

So sometimes we are missing the connecting link, but we can capture it anyway. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna is hearing directly from Kṛṣṇa, and as Arjuna heard to Kṛṣṇa . . . because he directly heard Kṛṣṇa, he is bona fide. Kṛṣṇa says that, "You are bona fide. Because you are My devotee and friend, I shall speak to you again." So you take the version of Arjuna, then you can be bona fide. But Arjuna is taking in one way, and you are taking in another way, then you are missing. This is the way. It is not very difficult. A guru means he speaks the same thing as the original master says. The original master is Kṛṣṇa. And guru means he has to repeat the words of Kṛṣṇa, that's all. To become guru is not very difficult. Kṛṣṇa says that He is the Supreme; a guru will say that "He is Supreme; I am servant." Guru will never say that "I am He." That is nonsense. That is . . . rascaldom.

Guest: (indistinct) . . . Guru Mahārāj-ji . . . (laughs)

Prabhupāda: They are all rascals, not only Guru Mahārāj-ji. There are many, many others. I know them. I don't wish to name them. They are all rascals.

Guest (2): . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Guru never says that, "I am Supreme." He never says. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair (Śrī Gurv-aṣṭaka 7). He should be honored exactly like God, kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya. But he is the most confidential servant of the Lord. He is . . . (indistinct) . . . therefore guru is called servitor God, servant God, and Kṛṣṇa is the master God. That is the difference. Both of them should be honored in the same way, but one is master, another is servant. Guru is servant; Kṛṣṇa is master. Then it is in order. If you can approach such guru, then your business will be complete. But any rascal declares, "Kṛṣṇa is dead. Now I am God, I have become Kṛṣṇa," kick him on his face with your boots. That is the only way. That's all.

Another simple meaning is: guru means "heavy," and laghu means "light." So how one becomes guru? When he knows Kṛṣṇa. I do not know Kṛṣṇa; a guru knows Kṛṣṇa. Therefore I have to go to the heavy. I am light. This is the process. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā, sei "guru" haya (CC Madhya 8.128): anyone who knows the science of Kṛṣṇa, he is guru. That's all.

kibā vipra, kibā śūdra, nyāsī kene naya

yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā, sei "guru" haya

(CC Madhya 8.128)

This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's version. It doesn't matter whether one is sannyāsī or gṛhastha or a brāhmaṇa or a śūdra. It doesn't matter. If you know the science of Kṛṣṇa, he is guru. Simple thing. Yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā, sei "guru" haya (CC Madhya 8.128). Just like ordinary knowledge, if you want to know, if you want to learn something, so you will have to approach to a person who knows this art. It doesn't matter; you don't ask, "Are you a sannyāsī? Are you a gṛhastha? Are you a brahmin? Are you śūdra?" No. If he knows the art, you become his disciple, that's all. Nīcād apy uttamāṁ vidyāṁ, Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says. Nīcād apy uttamāṁ vidyāṁ strī-ratnaṁ duṣkulād api. Viṣād apy amṛtaṁ grāhyam, amedhyād api kāñcanam (Nīti-darpaṇa 1.16), he has given. So if in the poison there is nectarine, you take it.

If in a filthy place there is gold, you take it. Similarly, if someone is learned, never mind if he is born in low, lower-grade society, you take it. And strī-ratnaṁ duṣkulād api: if a woman is qualified, beautiful, never mind what is this heredity, you accept as wife. This is the instruction of Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. Nīcād apy uttamāṁ vidyāṁ strī-ratnaṁ duṣkulād api. Because according to Vedic culture, when one is married, so all descriptions of kula, jāti . . . (indistinct) . . . they take account. But if a girl is well qualified, strī-ratnaṁ, then you accept; it doesn't matter in whichever family she . . .

Similarly, you accept guru—it doesn't matter what he is if he knows the science. It is plain, simple thing. Suppose one is musician very nicely, it doesn't matter what he is; you have to learn the music from him. You do not ask, "Are you brahmin?" It doesn't matter whether he is brāhmaṇa or śūdra; he knows the science. That's all.

Guest: Know somebody who is practicing the science.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is practicing the science, you accept him as guru. Similarly, if somebody knows the science of Kṛṣṇa, accept him. If you have not done so, then you are mistaken. If you are interested in understanding Kṛṣṇa, then this is the process. And if you think that to have a guru is a fashion . . . nowadays, "I have a guru. He does not know anything, I do not know anything . . ." That is the fact.

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, could I just, erm, any persons who have cars in the cowshed, could they move them? Because the cow trucks just arrived, and any cars in the vicinity will be hit by the cow . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Which?

Devotee: Look out here . . . (indistinct) . . . there are one or two cars in the vicinity of the shed, and the . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Fixed? I do not follow.

Devotee (2): He's saying that there are several cars, automobiles, near the cowshed. And he's asking that those who own cars, could they move their cars out of the cowshed near the cowshed?

Prabhupāda: How can I help? I shall have to go there? (laughter) Why you are asking me?

Devotee: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: So what can I do? (laughter)

Devotee: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: You can ask the proprietor of the car. Why you are asking me?

Devotee: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Oh, all right.

Devotee: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.

(indistinct people talking)

Prabhupāda: What is your name?

Pravin: Pravin.

Prabhupāda: Pravin. You are also coming from India?

Pravin: Yes . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Oh. From Bombay?

Pravin: (indistinct) . . . (indistinct Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Devotee: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Devotee (3): This is . . . (indistinct) . . . very nice man. He's from a very wonderful family . . . (indistinct) . . . devotees. His wife . . .

Prabhupāda: Englishman? He was Englishman?

Devotee (3): Yes.

Prabhupāda: You live in this village?

Indian man: I live . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) . . . because I am doing some wood sculpture.

Prabhupāda: I see. You are sculptor? Oh.

Devotee: He wants to make Jagannātha deities for our temple in Edinburgh . . . (indistinct) . . . he teaches yoga, and he was teaching exercise, yoga exercises, and he met Revatīnandana Swami and the other devotees, and now he has decided that bhakti-yoga, that is best. And so . . . (indistinct) . . . he came to see Ratha-yātrā and see you . . . (indistinct) . . . (end)