730901 - Conversation A - London

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His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



730901R1-LONDON - September 01, 1973 - 20:22 Minutes



Prabhupāda: ...that there is no brain behind this creation. How foolish they are.

Peter: Yes.

Prabhupāda: There is no brain in this artistic work. And how wonderfully, because it is automatically coming, artist. Anything you take, flower. So, without brain how this thing can happen? But these rascals, they do not understand. They say "nature." What is this nature? Nature is an instrument, but the brain is God. Just like you paint a flower with the brush. The brush is not the creator of that painting; you are creator. Similarly, it appears that it is happening naturally. Nature is only brush, but the brain is God.

Peter: Yet no two are the same, are they?

Prabhupāda: Eh.

Peter: They are not the same.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Varieties. Everything is variety. Everything is variety, full of varieties. We find the same species of rose, still, you'll find varieties. In human, twin brothers, you will find still varieties.

Peter: And in Goloka Vṛndāvana, are there still varieties? Are there still varieties in Vṛndāvana?

Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana?

Śrutakīrti: Goloka Vṛndāvana, are there still varieties, he said.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. There are varieties. Ānanda. Ānanda, pleasure, means varieties. Variety is the mother of enjoyment. Without varieties... Just like we prepare from grains, sugar, ghee, hundreds of varieties. If you simply give grain, ghee and sugar, it will not be enjoyable. But the same thing you prepare in varieties and give you a plate, oh, you'll say, "Oh, so nice thing."

The ingredients are the same: grains, ghee and sugar, that's all. Similarly, this material world, the ingredients are the same, namely five gross elements and three subtle elements, finer. Earth, water, air, fire, sky, these are gross elements. And mind, intelligence, ego, these are finer elements. Combined together this material world has come.

The brain behind is a living entity. Just like we are using these ingredients, these five elements: earth, water, air, fire, sky, making this building, making this table, making this chair, vase, so many things, harmonium, pictures, book. So the ingredients are the same, but my brain is working in different varieties. My brain or your brain, human brain. Similarly, this material cosmic manifestation is full of varieties. The brain behind it is Kṛṣṇa. That is stated... You have read our Bhagavad-gītā?

Peter: I've taken a look.

Prabhupāda: There is a verse.

(aside:) Find out:

mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ
sūyate sa-carācaram
hetunānena kaunteya
jagad viparivartate
(BG 9.10)

Mayādhyakṣeṇa.

Śrutakīrti:

mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ
sūyate sa-carācaram
hetunānena kaunteya
jagad viparivartate
(BG 9.10)

"This material nature is working under My direction, O son of Kuntī, and it is producing all moving and unmoving beings. By its rule this manifestation is created and annihilated again and again."

Prabhupāda: Purport?

Śrutakīrti: "It is clearly stated here that the Supreme Lord, although aloof from all the activities of the material world, remains the supreme director. The Supreme Lord is the supreme will and the background of this material manifestation, but the management is being conducted by material nature. Kṛṣṇa also states in Bhagavad-gītā that of all the living entities in different forms and species, 'I am the father.' The father gives seeds to the womb of the mother for the child, and similarly, the Supreme Lord by His mere glance injects all the living entities into the womb of material nature, and they come out in their different forms and species, according to their last desires and activities.

"All these living entities, although born under the glance of the Supreme Lord, still take their different bodies according to their past deeds and desires. So the Lord is not directly attached to this material creation. He simply glances over material nature; material nature is thus activated, and everything is created immediately. Because He glances over material nature, there is undoubtedly activity on the part of the Supreme Lord, but He has nothing to do with the manifestation of the material world directly.

"This example is given in the smṛti: when there is a fragrant flower before someone, the fragrance is touched by the smelling power of the person, yet the smelling and the flower are detached from one another. There is a similar connection between the material world and the Supreme Personality of Godhead; actually He has nothing to do with this material world, but He creates by His glance and ordains. In summary, material nature, without the superintendence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, cannot do anything. Yet the Supreme Personality is detached from all material activities.

Peter: Is modern science materialism, Prabhupāda? Is it materialism?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Peter: All, all materialism?

Prabhupāda: Just dealing with earth, water, air, fire, sky. That's all.

Peter: And in this time, modern science, you know—physics, chemistry, mathematics—is this all materialism?

Prabhupāda: All materialism.

Peter: All materialism.

Prabhupāda: They do not know what is spiritual, even.

Peter: And inside these people doing this work, is it Kṛṣṇa? Or what is it makes them do the work?

Prabhupāda: No. The soul is a living being. So nature is supplying material, and he's molding in different forms. Just like earth is not man's creation. Earth is God's creation, or it is product of God's energy. But we are using this earth and molding in different forms—different pots, different dolls. So ingredients are supplied by God. Nature means God's energy. We simply handle them. We cannot produce anything; we transform only. Just like this iron, we cannot produce iron. It is gotten from the mine, iron bar. Now we have transformed into different forms, because we have got creative energy like God—not very great; in very minute quantity. So as God has created by His intelligence the whole universe—we are creating this table, this pillow, this harmonium—that's all.

(aside:) What you are finding?

Śrutakīrti: I was just looking at that verse again.

Prabhupāda: Which verse?

Śrutakīrti: Mayādhyakṣeṇa...

Prabhupāda: Oh.

mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ
sūyate sa-carācaram
hetunānena kaunteya
jagad viparivartate
(BG 9.10)

The Bhagavad-gītā is the perfect information of everything. One has to study carefully, that's all. It is perfect information. And you can accept it with your good logic. Not that blindly you accept. Now just like Kṛṣṇa says, "The material elements are My energy." Now you can consider, you can argue, you can make argument, you'll come to the conclusion. Just like material elements, water, the vast water. The ocean, Atlantic Ocean, vast water. So it is created by God's energy. How can you explain with your argument? Because it is said there, Kṛṣṇa says, that "This is My energy." Now, if you accept it, it is all right. But if you have got hesitation, what is your reason?

Peter: Because one man says one thing and one man says another thing. So many people have different things to say.

Prabhupāda: No, personally. Suppose I ask you.

(aside:) What is your..., you want to ask me?

Haṁsadūta: You have..., that letter has a return address for Maṇḍalībhadra?

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is here. How the water... Just like from your body water is produced, is it not?

Peter: Transformed?

Prabhupāda: Transformed or whatever, but you see urine is coming, perspiration is coming. So these different waters are produced by your energy within the body. So why not from God's energy the vast water?

Peter: Yes, truly.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Peter: But why should He give us...

Prabhupāda: Because God is unlimited, He has got unlimited energy. I have got limited energy. I can pass urine, say, one pound; I can have perspiration, say, one ounce; but if God likes, He can produce unlimited water. Why this one Atlantic Ocean? Many millions of Atlantic Ocean He can produce, water produced from His body. So where is the difficulty to understand? When Kṛṣṇa says that the elements... Other matters are growing. Just like the hair. Now, today, I have shaved. Three days after, again it will grow. So I have got my energy within, by which I'm constantly growing, matter. Hair is as material thing. So anything you take, it grows from the Supreme. It is very easy to understand.

Peter: Hmm. And, ah, this inside, it grows because of Kṛṣṇa, does it?

Prabhupāda: Everything is growing on account of Kṛṣṇa. Your body, inside or outside, it is made of these five elements: earth, water, air, fire, like that. It is nothing but combination of these five elements.

Peter: Is the water inside the same as the water in the ocean?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Peter: It's the same water.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You... Have you tasted ever your perspiration?

Peter: Hmm?

Prabhupāda: Perspiration, have you tasted?

Peter: Tasted it? Yes. Salt.

Prabhupāda: Salty, yes.

Peter: Like the ocean, yes.

Prabhupāda: It has got.

Peter: But one ocean is not the same as another, eh? (chuckles) My business is mathematics. It's not very transcendental.

Prabhupāda: You are teacher?

Peter: No, not anymore. It's not very transcendental.

Śrutakīrti: He's asking if his business is transcendental.

Prabhupāda: No, if it is used for Kṛṣṇa, then it is transcendental. If it is used for your sense gratification, then it is material. That is the difference.

Peter: Yes. And how do you know whether you're using it for Kṛṣṇa or not?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That requires training from the Kṛṣṇa's representative, guru. Just like these boys are being trained up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So it requires little training. Just like you are mathematician. To make another student mathematician, you have to train him. You have to teach him how to calculate "Two plus two equal to four." It will never be five. If somebody says, "No, my calculation is 'Two plus two equal to five,' " will it be accepted?

Peter: I'm afraid sometimes it can be true. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: How it can be true?

Peter: One plus one can equal three.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Peter: One plus one can equal three sometimes.

Prabhupāda: Is there mathematical calculation?

Peter: I know that it's ah... I mean, things reproduce. Life is not so fixed, not so rigid. But one does have to be trained, it's true. Training is... Some people can understand and some people cannot understand, and...

Prabhupāda: That is difference of understanding.

Peter: Yes.

Prabhupāda: The fact is true. But if I cannot understand, that is my misfortune.

Peter: Yes. And if I can't understand what, this is the end of the... So, yes, this is so. I think this is right.

Prabhupāda: God is fact. But if somebody cannot understand, it is his misfortune.

Peter: Yes. And another time, another place.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Peter: As you say, there are many oceans. The Christians say, "In my father's house are many mansions." Hmm. Ācchā? Is enough?

Prabhupāda: No, you can sit down.

Peter: This has come a long way from the Barrier Reef, the Pacific. These shells. The shells.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Peter: From the Pacific. From the Barrier Reef, Australia. You know the Barrier Reef?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Peter: Yes, that's where they come from, the Barrier Reef.

Prabhupāda: I have seen the reef.

Peter: You have?

Prabhupāda: In Australia.

Peter: Oh, yes. I would like to see that. The sea is wonderful, isn't it? You like the sea, they tell me.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Very green, clear.

Peter: Yes. Always a different color, though. Always a little different, isn't it?

Prabhupāda: Well, reef I have seen. It is about..., not less than two hundred feet.

Peter: Really? They say under the water is beautiful, the light and the color.

Prabhupāda: They go under the water?

Peter: They go, yes, under the water, in skin-diving. The coral. Coral? It grows, coral, doesn't it? They say it's all very beautiful. Jaya. Well, thank you, Prabhupāda. Jaya.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Give him prasāda. Thank you.

Śrutakīrti: Take a little sweet.

Prabhupāda: What is your name?

Peter: Peter.

Prabhupāda: Peter, oh, yes.

Peter: Thank you very much. Jaya.

Prabhupāda: Jaya. (end)