730817 - Lecture BG 02.11-12 - London

Lectures by Date, 1973

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

730817B2-LONDON - August 17, 1973 - 60:15 Minutes

(Lecture at an engagement)

Prabhupāda:

aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ

prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase

(BG 2.11)

Lord Kṛṣṇa, here it is said, śrī-bhagavān uvāca: "the Supreme Personality of Godhead said." Bhagavān. It is not written here kṛṣṇa-uvāca, because people might take Kṛṣṇa as ordinary person, historical person. Therefore the author, Vyāsadeva, says bhagavān uvāca. Bhagavān means the Personality of Godhead.

Personality of Godhead . . . there is definition who is Personality of Godhead. There are many persons—we are all persons. All living entities, they are individual persons. Just like you are a person, I am a person, the dog is also person, a cow is also person—everyone is individual. But Bhagavān means the Supreme Person. As we are many persons here, sitting together, but there is some difference—they are not equal in their status of life, in their understanding, in their knowledge, in their bodily feature. Every individual person, we are not equal. I am thinking in different way, you are thinking in different way—my ambition is different, your ambition is different—my profession is different, your profession is different.

In this way, if you study each and every person, you will find there are varieties. Not that everyone is thinking in the same way or living in the same way. No. That is called person. Everyone is individual person. Similarly, Bhagavān is also individual person. He is the supreme person—that is the difference. Just like in your country, in England, the supreme person is the Queen, but she is also a person like us. But if we study who is the greatest personality in this country, we come to the Queen. So Queen has got a definition, who is a Queen. Similarly, when we speak of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, there is a definition.

That is given in the Vedic literature by Parāśara Muni, the father of Vyāsadeva. Parāśara Muni is one of the authorities in the Vedic literature, so he has given a definition, who is the Supreme Person. He has given:

aiśvaryasya samagrasya

vīryasya yaśasaḥśriyaḥ

jñāna-vairāgyayaś caiva

ṣaṇṇāṁ itī bhaga ganā

(Viṣṇu Purāṇa 6.5.47)

Aiśvaryasya means riches, wealth, one who possesses all the wealth. Now here we are sitting; say I have got one thousand dollar, you have got one million dollar, somebody has got more, more, more—you go on. But nobody can claim that, "I am the possessor of all the wealth." That you cannot find. So aiśvaryasya samagrasya. Samagra means complete. That you see: Kṛṣṇa. In the Bhagavad-gītā He will say that sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29): "I am the proprietor of all the universe." Nobody can say like that. You can say, "I am the proprietor of such and such house, such and such business, such and such bank balance or such and such country," like that. But nobody can say that "I am the possessor of all the wealth of the universe."

Aiśvaryasya samagrasya vīryasya. Vīryasya means strength, bodily strength. That also Kṛṣṇa proved when He was present. Yaśasaḥ. Yaśasaḥ means reputation. You see Kṛṣṇa's reputation is still going on; all over the world He is known. In your English dictionary you will find His name, and His book, the Bhagavad-gītā, is read all over the world amongst the scholars, philosophers. Nobody can compete with His reputation—take any historical person. So aiśvaryasya samagrasya vīryasya yaśasaḥśriyaḥ. Śriyaḥ means beauty. He was personally so beautiful that He attracted so many young girls of Vṛndāvana, gopīs. He is still standing before us. See how much He is beautiful: there's no comparison of His beauty.

So wealth, strength, reputation, beauty and knowledge. Not that Kṛṣṇa was simply beautiful and He was cutting jokes with the damsels of Vṛndāvana and enjoying. No. Nobody could be compared with His knowledge. His knowledge is the Bhagavad-gītā. Still, the Bhagavad-gītā, the knowledge which was delivered, say within half an hour . . . this Bhagavad-gītā was spoken to Arjuna in the battlefield. Now, when Arjuna was just going to fight with his arrows and bows, he simply thought, "Oh, what I am going to do? I am going to kill my own men. The other side, they are only my brothers and nephews, grandfather. What sort of fight I am going to do? Kṛṣṇa, it is not possible to fight. Better I give up my claim. Let them enjoy. I cannot kill my kinsmen, my family men." That was his position.

But because Kṛṣṇa was Arjuna's friend, so He thought, "What nonsense you are . . . you are a fighter, and you are talking all this sentiments." So He talked about something to encourage him to fight, and that is Bhagavad-gītā. Just imagine how much time they could spare in the battlefield—utmost half an hour or one hour. So the knowledge which Kṛṣṇa gave to Arjuna . . . of course Arjuna, also equally competent to understand Bhagavad-gītā within one hour. Because Arjuna and Kṛṣṇa, they are friends, so Arjuna had also equal qualification with Kṛṣṇa, so that Kṛṣṇa could speak and he could understand. This Bhagavad-gītā, you calculate, it was spoken say half an hour to one hour—not even one hour; whatever it may be, it is within one hour. It was spoken by Arjuna, and . . . er, by Kṛṣṇa, and it was understood by Arjuna. But just see what is the depth of knowledge of this book that at the present moment big, big scholars, they are trying to understand, one verse after one—there are only 700 verses—they are, I mean to say, puzzled, so deep knowledge. So from the knowledge, from the wisdom point of view, Kṛṣṇa you have to accept is the wisest.

So these are the qualification. There are nowadays so many so-called avatāras, incarnation of God. But according to the statement of Parāśara Muni, that God means one must be richest than anyone, anywhere within the universe; one must be wisest, one must be the most beautiful, one must be the strongest. Aiśvaryasya samagrasya vīryasya yaśasaḥśriyaḥ jñāna, with knowledge; and vairāgya, unattached. The wisest, the most reputed, the most beautiful, the strongest—in spite of having all these qualifications . . . they are called six opulences. Bhaga means opulence; vān means one who possesses. That is Bhagavān. Just like generally in India it is said bhaga-vān, dāna-vān, buddhi-vān, buddhi-mān. This vat-pratyaya and mat-pratyaya is there when one possesses. So here it is specifically mentioned, śrī-bhagavān uvāca.

So we should take everything very diligently, not that anyone can say: "I am Bhagavān." We have to test whether He is the wisest, whether He is the strongest, whether He is the richest, whether He is the most reputed—then you accept. Don't accept any ordinary man, simply cheating others and declaring himself that, "I am Bhagavān." Arjuna also tested. Arjuna knew—he was Kṛṣṇa's friend—he knew Kṛṣṇa very well, but still he wanted to see His virāṭ-rūpa, so that in future others may not cheat the innocent people.

So bhagavān uvāca. Kṛṣṇa, his first lesson to Arjuna . . . Arjuna was speaking like a very learned man. Some of his statements were that "If I kill my brothers, the wives of my brothers, they will become widow. And without husband they may be polluted, and there will be unwanted children, saṅkara, varṇa-saṅkara. And if there are illicit children, then the world will be hellish." So these statements are nice. They are not, I mean to say, unnecessary. They are necessary for keeping the society in order. Every woman must have a husband, and the children must be born within, I mean to say, bona fide husband and wife; then there will be good population. These things are Vedic statements. So Arjuna was speaking in that way. That is also like a learned man, but he was lamenting about his . . . about the death of his kinsmen. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says that:

aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ

prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase

(BG 2.11)

"You are talking like a very learned man, as authority, but you are lamenting on something which no learned man does."

gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca

nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ

(BG 2.11)

Paṇḍitāḥ means learned man. The thing is that we may be very learned man, some of them. Some of us may be lawyers, some of us may be medical practitioners, some of us may be very expert businessmen, so many things, engineers, but if we do not know the value of our life, then according to this statement of Bhagavad-gītā we are not paṇḍitāḥ, we are not learned. That is the first statement that, "You are lamenting on a subject matter which no learned man does. That means you are a fool." In a very mild language, in such a way, nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ: "Those who are learned, they do not, like that. That means you are a fool."

So this knowledge which Kṛṣṇa is going to deliver about this body and about the soul, that is the beginning of knowledge. Without this knowledge, any other knowledge, that is not our success—that is our defeat. In Bhāgavatam it is stated that parābhava. Parābhava means defeat. Parābhavas tāvad: so long, abodha-jātaḥ, those who are born foolish rascals, yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam (SB 5.5.5); so long one is not awakened to the standard, to the position, to enquire about the soul . . . you may be big engineer, big doctor, big lawyer, but if you do not know what is soul and what is this body, then whatever you have learned, that is your defeat of life, parābhava. Why defeat? Yes, it is defeat in this sense—that the soul is there. All of us, we are individual souls. That will be explained in this chapter. And just you are sitting all here in different dresses, similarly, this body is the dress of me, and I am the soul. Just like I say: "This is my hand." I don't say "I hand." Nobody says. If I ask you, even a child, if you ask child, sometimes we play a joke with children, "What is this?" "My finger," he says. So every one of us will say it is my finger, my hand, my head, my leg, my body. But where is you?

Devotees: Jaya!

Prabhupāda: So this is very sober question, you see. I am saying it is my hand, my leg, my head, but I am not finding out where I am. That is called yoga system: to find out where I am and who I am—this enquiry. Unless this enquiry is there, he is animal. The animal has no such enquiry, neither the animal has the capacity to understand, "What I am?" Similarly, if a human being does not understand himself what he is, then he remains an animal. Therefore all his knowledge-acquiring is defeat, because he does not know himself.

So everyone should try to understand this. Unfortunately, there is no educational system throughout the whole world to enquire about this "What I am?" The whole educational system is parābhava, is defeat. Therefore people are not happy, in spite of so much educational advancement. Especially I am in America for the last four, five years, I have seen there are so many nice universities, they have no scarcity of money; very nice buildings, very nice . . . everything is there. But they are producing hippies. (laughter) Just see. Why? Because . . . that is not their fault. This hackneyed type of education has been disgusted, without any actual knowledge. I don't blame the hippies. They are searching after something substantial. They are disappointed in the modern system of education or system of civilization. It is a protest. But it is a fact that they are searching after something sublime. Yes. And that is the beginning of human life. Because in the Vedānta-sūtra first the aphorism is athāto brahma jijñāsā: "Now this life, this human form of life, is meant for enquiring about Brahman, what is Brahman."

So there is no university to answer, but the Vedic literature, this Vedic civilization, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement can answer. Therefore these students, these young boys and girls who are after our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, they are getting the answer. Even they were formerly hippies, but now they have got the answer. One of my student in Hawaii, he was a hippie leader. Now, after studying our literature, the wholesale, the whole body have become our disciples.

So this is the question and this is the answer. People are engaged whole day and night producing something and enjoying for sense gratification, but they do not know what is the value of life. The value of life is: this human form of life is a chance. We do not admit even—we are so fool—that how we are tools in the hands of material nature. We are very much proud of our education, our wealth, our intelligence, but we do not know what is going to happen after death. The most learned philosophers or professors, they speak, "After finishing of this body, everything is finished." They are so much in darkness, still they are leaders of the society—they are professors, they are learned. This is going on. The Bhāgavat, they have been described that:

andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās

te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ

(SB 7.5.31)

These people are tied up with hard knots by the ropes of material nature, but still they are declaring themselves as free. They are so blind, and these blind leaders are leading many other blind followers. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānā. They are tied up by themselves. Just like in Russia they say: "We don’t believe in God. We want to live without any God." But they have created another God: the Lenin. Instead of going under the direction of God, they have created another God, and they are going under that direction.

So this is not a fact, that you do not care for God. You have to care for God. But your God may be a dog—that is a different thing—but you have to be under the direction of God. That's a fact. You cannot deny. This morning when I was walking, some of our student enquired that, "If somebody says that, 'I do not believe in God,' what is the immediate answer?" And immediate answer is that you come to the street; instead of going to the right you go to the left, and here is a constable—he is your God. Immediately he will arrest you and harass you. So how you can say that you are independent of God? There is God for everyone, but the status of God may be different. One may be worshiping a police constable as God; (laughter) one may be worshiping his boss as God; one may be worshiping his leader as God. So in this way, everyone is worshiping some sort of God. But we are worshiping the Supreme God. That is the difference.

Devotee: (applause) All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya Prabhupāda!

Prabhupāda: That is the difference. You cannot live without God, but your God may be of different quality and my God may be of different quality. Now what is that different . . . difference quality? We are selecting God: the richest, the most reputed, the most beautiful, the most wise. That is our God. You are selecting a God who is less intelligent, no knowledge, not beautiful, not so strong—a false God. That is the difference.

Everyone has to accept some God, because it is the nature of every living entity to serve under somebody superior. That is the definition given by Lord Caitanya: jīvera 'svarūpa' haya—'nitya kṛṣṇa-dāsa' (CC Madhya 20.108). Every living entity is by nature, by his constitutional position, is a servant; but he is originally servant of Kṛṣṇa. But because he has forgotten Kṛṣṇa he has to become servant of so many people. Generally, so long we are not servant of God, we are servant of our senses. That is our position. We have to become servant. But our present position is that we are servant of our senses. I accept to serve somebody, not to that person, but that somebody gives me some money, and with that money I satisfy my senses. So because I am servant of my sense, I agree to serve somebody, even though I do not like it.

So everyone is servant. Somebody is servant of his senses, and somebody is servant of the master of the senses. Kṛṣṇa's another name is Hṛṣīkeśa. Hṛṣīka. Hṛṣīka means senses, and īśa, īśa means master. Hṛṣīkeśa . . . hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate (CC Madhya 19.170). We are serving—we are serving the senses. The material enjoyment means sex. The highest enjoyment conceivable within this material world is sex. Everyone. So sex is also one of the senses. So long we serve the senses, then we are materialist. And as soon as we serve the master of the senses, we are spiritualist.

That is the difference between a devotee and nondevotee. Nondevotee is engaged in the service of his senses. The eyes dictate, "Please take me to that beautiful place," immediately I have to go. The tongue dictates, "Please immediately take me to that restaurant." "Yes, come on." "Please give me immediately cigarette." "Yes, take it." So senses are dictating, everyone's. That is conditioned life. Conditioned life means one who is going on by the dictation of the senses. The same dictation . . . also devotees are also, just like Arjuna and Kṛṣṇa. Why Kṛṣṇa . . . why Arjuna is accepted as a great devotee of Kṛṣṇa? Because he agreed to abide by the orders of the master of the senses instead of being abided by the orders of his own senses. He decided not to fight because he was being dictated by his senses: "He is my nephew, he is my brother, he is my grandfather. If I kill, then my senses will not be satisfied. So I don't fight." That means that he was trying to satisfy his senses. But when he agreed to fight after the instruction of Kṛṣṇa, he wanted to abide by the orders of the master of the senses. The carrying out order of some superior is there. In the beginning the position was that he was trying to carry out the order of his own senses, but at the end, after learning Bhagavad-gītā, he gave up that position to satisfy his own senses, but he took the position to satisfy the senses of Kṛṣṇa. That's all.

That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We have to change our position: instead of satisfying my senses, we have to satisfy the sense of Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. All our students being trained up in that way, that Kṛṣṇa's instruction:

aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ

prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase

(BG 2.11)

So long one is servant of the senses, he cannot speak anything right, because he is servant of the senses. It is not possible for anyone, however good scholar, big philosopher he may be. If he is servant of his senses he cannot deliver in the right thing. That is not possible, because immediately he becomes conditioned.

A conditioned living entity means he has got four defects: a conditioned living entity is sure to commit mistake; a conditioned living entity is sure to be under illusion; a conditioned living entity is sure to cheat others; and a conditioned living entity is sure to have senses which are imperfect. Imperfect. Our all our senses are imperfect; therefore it is the necessity . . . just like Arjuna: Arjuna was thinking with his imperfect senses. Now, therefore, when he thought that, "I cannot come to the right conclusion by exercising my imperfect senses," that is human life. When one understands that, "I am trying to get knowledge with my imperfect senses; it is not possible," then he comes to his senses, athāto brahma jijñāsā. That is his right position. So long he thinks that "I am thinking rightly. My knowledge is perfect," he is a grand fool, that's all.

Therefore Kṛṣṇa says . . . Arjuna also. First of all he was talking with Kṛṣṇa as friend, but when he thought it wise that, "We are talking like friends; this will not come to any conclusion," he surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam (BG 2.7): "My dear Kṛṣṇa, so long I was talking with You as friend to friend, but I don't think this will be producing any good result. Therefore I surrender unto You as Your disciple," śiṣyas te 'haṁ. Śiṣya means voluntarily accepting the orders of the spiritual master. Voluntary. That is called śiṣya. Śiṣya means one who agrees, voluntarily, to accept any order from the spiritual master. That is called śiṣya. Śas-dhātu, "ruling." Who accepts the ruling of the spiritual master, he is called śiṣya. So Arjuna placed himself to the position of śiṣya, śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam.

This is the right process of knowledge. If, with our imperfect senses, we try to carry out advancement of knowledge, that will never be perfect. We have to receive knowledge from the perfect source. That knowledge is perfect. Just like a child, he is always receiving knowledge from the parents. He is not concluding anything by his own research. He asks father, "Daddy, what is this?" Daddy explains, "This is this," and he accepts. This is our position. Similarly, we have to receive knowledge from the perfect source; otherwise our knowledge is imperfect. Here Kṛṣṇa says . . . Kṛṣṇa has taken the position, superior position of spiritual master, and Arjuna has placed himself under Kṛṣṇa to be taught, and He begins the deliverance of knowledge in this way. First of all He chastised that, "You are thinking . . ." That everyone thinks that, "I am very much advanced in knowledge. I don't require any spiritual master, I don't require any guru. I'll . . . I'll get knowledge by my own effort, mental speculation." That is not possible. We have to receive knowledge from the right source. And who can be better right person than Kṛṣṇa?

So our process is very perfect: we take knowledge from Kṛṣṇa and we distribute that knowledge. We don't create, we don't manufacture knowledge. Our position is very same. Just like peon: peon's business is to take the letter and delivered to the right person, "Here is your letter, sir." He does not open the letter or add something nonsense. No, that is not peon's business. So our business is that to receive knowledge from Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says that there is soul. In the next verse He will explain that:

na tv evāhaṁ jātu nāsaṁ

na tvaṁ neme janādhipāḥ

na caiva na bhaviṣyāmaḥ

sarve vayam ataḥ param

(BG 2.12)

"My dear Arjuna, don't think that you, Me and all these kings and soldiers who have assembled on this battlefield, they were not existing before or they will not existing after." That means eternally they are all souls. "Don't think like that."

na tv evāhaṁ jātu nāsaṁ

na tvaṁ neme janādhipāḥ

na caiva na bhaviṣyāmaḥ . . .

(BG 2.12)

It is not that we shall . . . just like the learned professor in Moscow, he said that, "After finishing this body, everything is finished." This is nonsense, and the whole world is going on under this nonsense idea. This is a nonsense civilization. You cannot be happy with this nonsense civilization. You must have to take this Kṛṣṇa consciousness life.

Thank you very much.

Devotees: Haribol. Jaya Prabhupāda! (break)

Śyāmasundara: Do you want any questions, Prabhupāda? (to audience) If anyone has any questions pertaining to tonight's lecture, apropos only what Prabhupāda has spoken tonight, kindly raise your hands and address us.

Guest: Earlier in the . . . (indistinct) . . . you said we were all individual souls. Now was it used in that sense . . . (indistinct) . . . sense? It's the concept that the soul is the vehicle of the spirit. Sometimes the words are equated, used interchangeably. In Christendom usually people use the term "soul" when they really mean the spirit.

Śyāmasundara: Spirit soul.

Guest: But he was using the word "individual souls," and I wondered if he meant individual spirits or if he sees no difference in the two terms?

Prabhupāda: Yes, individual spirit.

Guest: But you said souls.

Prabhupāda: Individual. Soul, soul. Soul is individual.

Guest: Pardon?

Prabhupāda: Soul is individual.

Guest: And what is spirit?

Prabhupāda: Spirit and soul, the same thing.

Guest: You equate the two terms?

Prabhupāda: Yes. You are spiritual spark, just like fire.

Guest: Is the soul create or uncreate?

Prabhupāda: Non-created; it is existing forever.

Guest: I understand that the spirit is self-existent . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: . . . but the soul is a created entity.

Prabhupāda: No. Not created? It has no creation, not annihilation.

Guest: You used the term anyway . . .

Prabhupāda: Huh.

Guest: . . . equally.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: Interchangeably.

Prabhupāda: The soul, this soul, being encaged in this body, it appears that the soul is changing or dying or taking birth. But the birth and death is taking place of the body, not of the soul. The soul is being carried by the subtle body—mind, intelligence and ego—to another body. Just like in your this body, you soul, you have changed so many bodies. You were a child, you were a baby, you were a boy, you were a young man—now you have got a different body. Similarly, after this body, you will get another body.

Guest: I understand that.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: Because the whole point, on this question, is whether the soul is the vehicle of the spirit. You say they are one and the same thing. Well . . .

Prabhupāda: No. Soul and spirit we mean the same thing.

Guest: You define them as exactly the same thing.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Any further questions?

Guest (2): I was just going to mention the fact that if you say that our senses are . . . (indistinct) . . . our human senses, would it be wrong to say the human sense, that you felt wonderful after running a mile and a half every day, shorts on, on the track, and keeping our bodies physically strong . . .

Śyāmasundara: He says are these sensual . . . pleasures of the senses, the material senses, are they deceiving us?

Prabhupāda: Yes. So long you will be addicted to the material sense enjoyment you will get a body, material body, so that you, as a soul, you will never be liberated.

Guest (2): Well, what about being physically fit? Let's say as a runner, who runs every day and gets enjoyment out of feeling physically fit and strong. Is that . . .

Prabhupāda: So everyone is physically fit. You are physically fit and a dog is also physically fit. (laughter) What is there?

Guest (2): That is unnecessary to do that?

Prabhupāda: Eh? No, that fitness you get according to the body, that's all. But that change of body is not your business. That is your encagement. You have to be free from this bondage of material body, and you have to develop your spiritual body. Then you will be happy. Then you will get eternal life of blissful knowledge—then you will be happy. That is your problem. But if you continue to be encaged by any type of material body, you will suffer. The suffering is due to this body, so your business is how to get out of this material body and develop our spiritual body and attain eternal, blissful life of knowledge. Yes?

Guest (3): I think your speech could be summarized in this matter: that spiritual life is superior to material life. But as far as I see from the people living in this world, I find that the people who believe in the material way of living are stronger, healthier, powerful . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughter) than most people who are struggling in spiritual life.

Prabhupāda: So can you conquer over death? (laughter)

Guest (3): No.

Prabhupāda: Then what kind of strong you are? (laughter) That tiger is also very strong. That is not life. Tiger, nobody, I mean, takes care of the tiger. He is very strong. That kind of strength is useless strength. If you cannot conquer over death, what is the value of your strength?

Guest (3): But those who believe in spiritual life, can they conquer over death?

Prabhupāda: First of all try to understand what is strength. Strength means when you conquer over birth, death, old age and disease. Then you are strong. But if you are forced to become old man, if you are forced to be under the clutches of disease, if you are forced to die, then what is the value of your strength?

Guest (3): Still, the material body . . .

Prabhupāda: First of all estimate your strength. Then what is the value of your strength?

Guest (3): Yes, I am not taking . . . saying the individual . . .

Prabhupāda: No. What is the individual or collective—who is the group that they have conquered over death, disease and old age?

Guest (3): But they are trying now, sir.

Prabhupāda: They are trying—everyone is trying. That is not . . . (laughter) That is nonsense, "Is trying." Everyone will say: "I am trying to be multi-millionaire. I am lying on the street." What is the value of this saying? "Now I am lying on the street, I am trying to be multi-millionaire," everyone can say like that. Be multi-millionaire, then say. Then your strength is there. Prove by your strength that "We have saved this man; he has become immortal. He has no more disease." That is strength. This kind of strength has no value.

Guest: May I, er . . . in the Western tradition of Christendom . . .

Prabhupāda: Now, we are not concerned with West and East. We are talking of philosophy.

Guest: I just wanted to ask you a question.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: It is taught in the Bible, people are not liberated are dead already. Would you agree with that?

Prabhupāda: Yes. We are not liberated.

Guest: Pardon?

Prabhupāda: Every one of us, not liberated. So long we are in this body, we are not liberated.

Guest: We are dead already?

Prabhupāda: Yes . . . what is dead? But I am not dead. Just like you are not your dress. Your dress is dead, but you are not dead. You don’t conclude because you have got a dead coat that therefore you are also dead.

Devotee: Haribol.

Prabhupāda: That is not very good intelligence. You are living, but your coat and shirt, they are dead. Similarly, your body is dead—that is a fact. It is a dead body. As soon as you, the spirit soul, go out of this body, you're dead. So it is dead, practically. So without spiritual knowledge it is simply decorating the dead body. That's all. The modern education is simply decoration of the dead body, that's all. I am engineer, this dead body. I am now identifying to become engineer. But as soon as the body is finished, your engineering is finished. You get another body—it may be a dog's body.

So this the engineering, this medical practitioner, this lawyer is simply decoration of this dead body. So what is the value of decorating a dead body? Loka-rañjanam. Aprāṇasya hi dehasya maṇḍanaṁ loka-rañjanam (Hari-bhakti-sudhodaya 3.11). That is stated in the Vedic literature. Decoration of the dead body means satisfying some admirers, that's all. It has no value. Real knowledge is to understand what I am, why I am suffering these threefold miseries of this material world, how to get out of it, if there is any way. This is knowledge. This is actual knowledge—not to decorate the dead body. Yes?

Guest (4): Are thoughts in your mind the only thing that bar your way to self-realization?

Śyāmasundara: (explaining) Are the thoughts in the mind, do they stop us from becoming self-realized? Are these the only things that stop us from becoming self-realized?

Prabhupāda: So when you become actually self-realized, your actual business begins. And that is unlimited; not stopping. When you are self-realized, when you realize yourself, then unlimited thinking begins. At the present moment the mind can think very limitedly, because the body is limited, the scope is limited. And when you are liberated in the spiritual mind, that is unlimited thinking. There is no question of stoppage—it is increasing, ānandāmbudhi-vardhanaṁ (CC Antya 20.12), that is stated. The ocean of pleasure increases.

Here in the ocean they are limited, but in the spiritual world the ocean of pleasure increases more and more. Ānandāmbudhi-vardhanaṁ. Vardhanaṁ means increasing; ānandāmbudhi—the pleasure of pleasure, an ocean of pleasure. Here, any pleasure you take, that is limited, but in the spiritual world the pleasure is unlimited. These things should be discussed. The . . . unfortunate, there is no educational institution: what is soul, what is soul's constitution, how he enjoys, what is life. Nothing. We are, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, trying to give you. So try to understand, that is our request.

Guest (5): Many thoughts . . . (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: (explaining) He says that he thinks that peaceful life means having no thoughts and . . . devoid of thoughts.

Prabhupāda: That is imagination. You cannot be without thought. That is another nonsense, that to become without thought. That is another displeasure, trying to be without thought—but thought is coming. That is not possible. This is frustration that, "This kind of thinking is giving me trouble, to make it void." That is a negative idea only. But that is not possible. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:

kleśo 'dhikataras teṣām

avyaktāsakta-cetasām

(BG 12.5)

He is trying to be thought-less, but it is not possible. Thoughts are coming, one after another, one after another. You cannot become without thought for a second even. But I am thinking that I want to finish all these thoughts. But that is another type of miserable condition of life. You cannot do that, because so long you are living, there must be thoughts. Without thoughts there is no meaning of living entity. So you cannot stop it. You have to rectify the thoughts—that will make you happy. Not that finishing this thought. Just like you cannot see with your eyes, you have got some disease—it is not to pluck out the eyes. To cure the eyes, when you see, then you enjoy.

Devotees: Haribol.

Prabhupāda: The treatment, the physician says: "You pluck out the eyes," that is not a good treatment. (laughter) So you cannot be thought-less; that is not possible. You have to purify your thoughts; then you will be happy. Yes?

Guest (6): You were saying in your lecture that everyone has to . . . (indistinct) . . . I'm sure you realize that some people are trying to break away from . . . (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: (explaining) He says that everyone . . . you said that everyone has to have a controller, a God.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: He says that some people are trying to become without controllers.

Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. (laughter) A nonsense may try like that, but no sane man will speak like that nor try like that. Can you show any man within this meeting, he is without a controller? His senses are controlling him, and he is thinking, "I am free." (laughter) That is nonsense. He is being controlled by his senses, and he is thinking, "I am free." This is called lunacy.

Guest: Do you accept that there is nothing wrong with desire? What is the trouble is the difficulty to attain the desire.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You have to desire according to Kṛṣṇa. Just like Arjuna: he was desiring in the beginning not to fight, but when he agreed to abide by the desire of Kṛṣṇa, he became liberated. So you have to purify your desire. At the time . . . at the present moment you are desiring independently, but when you desire according to the dictation of Kṛṣṇa, then you are purified. As a child acts: when he acts independently, it is foolish, and when he acts under the direction of teacher or parents, that is nice. So active . . . activities of the child cannot be stopped, but he has to act by the orders of the superior. Then it is nice.

Lady Guest: Excuse me. You said decorating of body by becoming doctors, lawyers or engineers is not good. What you think of about Canak and others?

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Lady Guest: You know, you said decorating of the body by becoming doctors or something like that is no good. Then what you think about Canak and others?

Prabhupāda: Canak?

Lady Guest: Canak, yes.

Prabhupāda: What is that Canak?

Lady Guest: Canak, who was the . . .

Devotees: Canak means? You mean Cāṇakya Paṇḍita?

Lady Guest: Sushrut aur . . . (indistinct) . . . bhi. (Suśrut and . . . (indistinct) . . . also.) Suśrut and everybody, they were . . . vaidya.

Prabhupāda: Our point is that decoration of the body, simply if we divert our attention simply for the decoration of the body, then we are misusing our time. But if we make the best use of a bad bargain, that this body, human body we have got, and in this body we can realize what is soul, what is God, what is our relationship, then it is very nice. Otherwise it is simply decoration of the body. Do you follow?

Lady Guest: (indistinct) . . . necessary.

Prabhupāda: No, I don't say necessary. It is necessary to maintain this body. Suppose you take bath, you have to eat—it is necessary. But you utilize. You utilize this body for the purpose for which you are given this body; then it is all right. This human form of body is given to you by nature's . . . by nature's gift. There are so many other bodies—cats and dogs. In that body they cannot realize what is soul, what is God, what is our relationship. But in this body you can do that.

So if you utilize this body for that purpose, then it is proper utilization. Otherwise it is simply decoration of the body. This body is meant for tapasya, tapasya—voluntarily accepting some inconveniences so that I may make progress in my spiritual life. That is Vedic civilization. Tapasya, tapo divyaṁ: to purify. Now suppose I decorate this body very nicely, that does not mean I am free from the threefold miserable condition of life . . . (break) (end)