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730715 - Conversation - London

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

730715R1-LONDON - July 15, 1973 - 44:05 Minutes

(Conversation With Three College Students)

Student (1): Is that what you're trying to do in your movement?

Prabhupāda: (break) movement . . . I am talking of yoga system. What is my movement, that we shall discuss later on. First of all the question was the yoga. You asked me that. yoga means to control the mind and the senses. So if one is not able to control the mind and senses, he does not know what is the meaning of yoga.

Student (1): Right.

Prabhupāda: That . . . you read Bhagavad-gītā?

(aside) Bring Bhagavad-gītā.

Revatīnandana: Do you understand the necessity of controlling the mind and the senses? Can you see why it is necessary? Why would you say it's . . .

Student (1): Yes. Sort of. Not to the full extent. I can't see how it's necessary to a full extent, because I can't control the mind and the senses.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Call Pradyumna.

Student (1): Because I can't completely control my mind and senses.

Revatīnandana: The thing that is covered when we are always acting on the sensual platform, agitated in the mind, is we do not experience our self, our eternal self, which doesn't change. We become locked on the temporary platform.

Student (1): Yeah. In normal life, you mean? Most people, you're talking about.

Revatīnandana: Yes. Because all of our attention is lodged in the mind and the senses, and we are lost to ourselves. So any kind of self-realization process means that you have to control the mind and senses or you cannot be self-situated. Beyond being situated in the self, there may be more, but that's the first point. That's the basic point of yoga.

Student (2): Where does Kṛṣṇa fit into it? Where does Kṛṣṇa fit into the yoga?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Revatīnandana: He wants to know . . . if being self-situated is one thing, then where does Kṛṣṇa enter into the system? That's his question.

Prabhupāda: Self-situated . . . when you are self-situated . . . just like in the water you are taking bath in a pool. Something has fallen on the water. Suppose your key has fallen. Now you'll have to find out. You are just trying to settle up the water and see where is the key. So when your mind and senses are controlled, then you can talk of Kṛṣṇa. Before that you cannot talk.

Because Kṛṣṇa is missing, with uncontrolled mind, senses, you cannot capture Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. The same example: When the water is agitated, you cannot see where your things have fallen. You have to wait to make the water calm and quiet. Then you'll see, "Here is my key."

Student (2): What are the ways in which . . .

Prabhupāda: You come here. Take this.

Student (2): How can we get to Kṛṣṇa? How do you get to Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Sixth Chapter, the practice of yoga. The process.

Pradyumna: Should I read from the beginning?

Prabhupāda: Hmm. You read. Read.

Pradyumna: "To practice yoga . . ."

śucau deśe pratiṣṭhāpya
sthiram āsanam ātmanaḥ
nāty-ucchritaṁ nātinīcaṁ
tatraikāgraṁ manaḥ kṛtvā
upaviśyāsane yuñjyād
yogam ātma-viśuddhaye
(BG 6.11-12)

"To practice yoga, one should go to a secluded place . . ."

Prabhupāda: Now, first of all you have to find out secluded place. yoga practice is not possible in a hotel or in a public place. It is not possible. You have to find out a secluded place. First condition. Then?

Pradyumna: ". . . and should lay kuśa grass on the ground and then cover it with a deerskin and a soft cloth."

Prabhupāda: Then there is process of making the āsana, deerskin, kuśāsana, then cloth. You have to sit down in that āsana. Āsana, dhyāna, dhāraṇā, prāṇ . . . then?

Pradyumna: "The seat should neither be too high nor too low."

Prabhupāda: Yes, everything is there. "It should not be too high nor too low." Then?

Pradyumna: "And should be situated in a sacred place."

Prabhupāda: A sacred place. Just like formerly, those who were practicing yoga, they were going to Gaṅgotri, where the Ganges is coming down, in the Himalaya, in the Haridwar, in a secluded, sacred place. These are the condition, first condition. So where you are getting these condition fulfilled? You cannot practice yoga in a hotel or in a club. That is not possible.

Student (2): How do you decide whether a place is sacred or not?

Pradyumna: How do you decide whether a place is sacred or not? How do you tell?

Revatīnandana: What is a sacred place?

Prabhupāda: Sacred place, generally we take as a lonely place, solitary place. If it is not solitary, it is not sacred.

Student (2): Is sacred the same as solitary?

Prabhupāda: Yes. They used to sit down in the Himalaya where the Ganges is coming. That is a sacred place. If you go simply on the Ganges side on the bank of the Ganges, Yamunā, you will find immediately purified your mind. Immediately. Or on a seaside where there is nobody disturbing. These are sacred places. Then?

Pradyumna: "The yogī should then sit on it very firmly."

Prabhupāda: Then yogī has to sit down very firmly like this. Yes, straight, perpendicularly. Then?

Pradyumna: "And should practice yoga by controlling the mind and the senses."

Prabhupāda: Then he has to practice meditation for controlling the mind and the senses. First of all āsana, place, sacred place; now, āsana, secluded place, alone. That is stated. These are the yogic process.(break)

Student (3): What do you mean by control your mind, I mean, control your senses? If your senses are controlled, can you see anything you wish or hear anything you wish? Or taste anything you wish?

Prabhupāda: (aside) Just explain what is control, mind and senses.

Revatīnandana: Well, controlling, being in control of your mind and senses, means that whatever destination you fix up with your intelligence—you understand, you want a particular result—then if you are in control of your mind and senses, then it means that it won't disturb you.

Prabhupāda: First of all . . . first of all thing is the, what is the aim of practicing yoga? So to achieve that end, that purpose, you have to control the mind, because mind is very flickering, going here, there, there, there. So first of all you must know what is the purpose of practicing yoga, why you should practice yoga. So in order to achieve that goal, you have to concentrate your mind, and therefore you have to control the mind going here and there. That is control. Mind business is acceptance and rejecting. This is mind's business. Immediately I accept, "It is very good"; again, next moment, "No, no, it is not good. Reject it." This is called flickering mind.

So by yoga practice you have to make your mind in such a way that whatever you decide, that is correct, not the state of rejecting and accepting. So first of all, you have to know why you are practicing yoga. As you asked the question, "Why control of mind?" then the next question will be, "Why you are practicing? What is your aim?" You are going to practice yoga. Why? What is the aim?

Student (2): Is it to realize God?

Prabhupāda: That's nice. Therefore you must have to concentrate upon God; therefore you have to control your mind. You have to withdraw your mind from any other engagement, only concentrate on God. Then the . . . what is God?

Student (2): That's what I'm trying to find out.

Prabhupāda: No, if you want to concentrate, find out God . . . do you mean to say simply by practicing, you'll find out? You must know what is God. Then suppose you are purchasing some ticket. You do not where to go. You do not know. You say: "I'll have to find out where to go." What is this? Then why you are purchasing ticket?

Student (2): Yeah. How can you focus your mind on God before you know what He is?

Revatīnandana: That's right.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Revatīnandana: He said: "How can you focus your mind on God before you know what God is?

Prabhupāda: Yes. So then what is God?

Student (1): That's what I came to ask you.

Prabhupāda: Then?

Revatīnandana: He wants to know. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: And that is Kṛṣṇa. So if you concentrate your mind on Kṛṣṇa, that is yoga. That is first-class yoga. That is stated. You . . . list the last . . .

yogīnām api sarveśāṁ
śraddhāvān bhajate yo māṁ
sa me yuktatamo mataḥ
(BG 6.47)

He is first-class yogī who is always concentrating his mind on Kṛṣṇa.

Student (1): Why Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Only on Kṛṣṇa. That is . . . yogīnām api sarveśām (BG 6.47).

(aside) You read the translation.

Pradyumna: "Of all yogīs, he who always abides in Me with great faith, worshiping Me in transcendental loving service, is most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all."

Prabhupāda: That's it. This is the highest yoga. So to concentrate your mind on Kṛṣṇa, that is highest perfection of yoga.

Student (1): Yeah, but I want to know why Kṛṣṇa in particular.

Prabhupāda: Then if there is question of "Why?" then you do not come to us. You can ask somebody else. Because Kṛṣṇa is accepted the Supreme Personality of Godhead by all the yogīs, all the saintly person, therefore . . . there is no question of "Why?" Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). That is the decision of the Vedic literature. All the ācāryas. We have to follow, mahājano yena gataḥ (CC Madhya 17.186), big personalities.

Now in India, the big personalities in the modern age, Śaṅkarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Caitanya, all of them accept kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. Formerly, five thousand years ago, Vyāsadeva; before that, Nārada. Everyone accepts Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So there is no question about Kṛṣṇa's being the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Why? Why? Because these people accept, the śāstra says, the Vedas says; therefore He is the Supreme Personality.

Student (1): I don't follow at all . . .

Prabhupāda: Then you'll never be able to follow.

Revatīnandana: Now, just see, if the revealed scriptures . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no revealed scripture . . . just like why do you accept the Queen as the supreme? Why?

Students: We don't.

Prabhupāda: Oh, then, then you are not very sane.

Student (1):. Yeah, but why . . . I mean, there's a thousand . . .

Prabhupāda: You do. You say, "I do not," but you do so. You are . . . by law you are obliged to do so. If you say publicly, then you will be something else.

Revatīnandana: It happened. In Scotland there is one university, Stirling University, and the Queen visited there. And she was treated in a very insulting way by the students, and as a result of that, the university and those students, they were put into a great deal of trouble afterward. Of course, the Queen is not supreme anymore, but she still is sufficient.

Prabhupāda: No, no, I am giving an example. No, officially, she is the supreme of England. That you cannot deny. If you do so, then your position, you know. Similarly, anything . . . "Call a spade a spade." If everyone says that this is electric lamp, and if you say, "No, I don't say," then what can be done?

Student (3): But we can see an electric lamp, but we can't see Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: No, that . . . that is . . . you have to see through the śāstra, śāstra-cakṣuṣā. Just like you see the sun just like a disc, but when you go through the śāstra, authorized books, you understand that it is fourteen hundred thousand times bigger than this earth. So what is the value of your seeing? Why do you believe you're seeing so much? Your all seeing is defective. You cannot say that you are perfectly see. You cannot say that.

Student (1): Do you believe that there are other ways . . .

Prabhupāda: There is no question of belief. Now let us quest . . . we believe that, "If I see, that is all right." But what is the value of your seeing? You cannot see beyond this wall. Does it mean there is nothing? So what is the value of your seeing? First of all you consider. You are questioning that, "I cannot see," but what is the value of your seeing?

Student (3): My seeing the electric lamp tells me that it is . . .

Prabhupāda: Now, now, now, but you are seeing the electric lamp, but why do you believe so much on your seeing power? You cannot see so many things, even though you have got the eyes.

Student (3): I have no reason not to believe.

Prabhupāda: No, that is not good. If you say: "I cannot see beyond this wall. There is nothing," nobody will take your words.

Student (3): Well, I don't know about that. I can see the wall . . .

Prabhupāda: You can say you don't know, but you cannot say that because you do not see, therefore it is nothing. You cannot say that.

Student (2): We're not denying that Kṛṣṇa exists, but, well, you know . . .

Prabhupāda: You have to know by the process, by the process. You have to know by the process. Just like can you see your father?

Student (2): Can I see him?

Prabhupāda: Eh. You cannot see? You can see?

Student (2): Well, I can see him.

Prabhupāda: So how you can see? Who is your father, how you can see?

Student (2): Who is he? Who is my father?

Prabhupāda: Why? Why you accept somebody as your father? Why?

Student (2): Only because my mother told me.

Prabhupāda: Huh, that's right. (laughter) But you do not see. You do not see. So you have to believe the authority. Then you can see.

Student (2): Yeah. Yeah, but . . .

Prabhupāda: Your father existed before your birth, so you have to ask from mother, "Who is my father?" And if she says: "This gentleman is your father," then it is all right. It is easy. Otherwise, if you makes research, "Who is my father?" go on searching for life; you'll never find your father.

Revatīnandana: So to come to your point, as he was pointing out, in the past, back hundreds of years, thousands of years, all the great authorities of spiritual knowledge and yoga have accepted Kṛṣṇa as the Personality of Godhead. And these ancient Vedas, they confirm it clearly in many, many places. Now, if someone comes and he says something else than Kṛṣṇa is God—"I am God" or "This light is God . . ."

Prabhupāda: (aside) You find out this verse

Revatīnandana: . . . then its different, you see. That's why not Guru Maharaj-ji.

Prabhupāda: Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramam (BG 10.12), in the Tenth Chapter.

Pradyumna: 10.10?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān.


paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma
pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān
puruṣaṁ śāśvataṁ divyam
ādi-devam ajaṁ vibhum
(BG 10.12)

Prabhupāda: Yes, go on.


āhus tvām ṛṣayaḥ sarve
devarṣir nāradas tathā
asito devalo vyāsaḥ
svayaṁ caiva bravīṣi me
(BG 10.13)

"Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original, and You are the unborn and all-pervading beauty. All the great sages, such as Nārada, Asita, Devala . . ."

Prabhupāda: Now he is referring to great sages, on the authority.

Pradyumna: ". . . and Vyāsa proclaim this of You, and now You Yourself are declaring it to me."

Prabhupāda: Then? Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye (BG 10.14)?

Pradyumna: Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye . . .

Prabhupāda: Yan māṁ vadasi keśava.

Pradyumna: . . . yan māṁ vadasi keśava, na hi te bhagavan vyaktiṁ vidur devā na dānavāḥ: "O Kṛṣṇa, I totally accept as truth all that You have told me. Neither the gods nor demons, O Lord, know Thy personality."

Prabhupāda: Just see. Immediately he understands Kṛṣṇa. Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye (BG 10.14): "Whatever You have spoken, I accept it," Then there is no difficulty. And "You are accepted by Devala, Nārada, Vyāsa, and You are speaking Yourself, and later on, all the ācāryas have accepted. Then I'll follow: mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). I'll have to follow great personalities."

The same reason: mother says this gentleman is my father. That's all. Finish business. Where is the necessity of making research? All authorities accept Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Personality of Godhead. You accept it; then your searching after God is finished. Why should you waste your time?

Student (1): Say we say that Kṛṣṇa is God. Right?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Student (1): If we . . . let's just suppose we say Kṛṣṇa is God. Then do you believe that there are other ways, apart from the way that you're going, to get to Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: yoga means to understand Kṛṣṇa.

Student (1): Yeah, right, but I mean practically . . .

Prabhupāda: So when you understand Kṛṣṇa, then there is no need of yoga.

Student (1): I don't think you could ever understand God. I don't see how you could ever understand God.

Prabhupāda: No, if you go to the place . . . just like if you go to the airport, then you can understand which airship is starting from which gate, which gate. There are so many things you can see. But if you do not approach the airport, simply in other place, how you can study airport? First of all come to Kṛṣṇa, then try to understand Kṛṣṇa.

And if you understand Kṛṣṇa, you become liberated. First of all we have to know that, "Here is Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead." Then you try to understand. But if you do not approach there, where is your question of understanding Him?

Student (2): Yeah, but somebody else will say: "You come to us, and I'll do this to you, and you'll see God."

Prabhupāda: We do . . . we are not concerned with "some." We are concerned with the authorities, that's all. Somebody says, "He is not your father." We are not concerned. My mother says: "He is father." That's all.

Student (2): Yeah, but if my mother tells me, I only believe it . . .

Prabhupāda: Then you are unfortunate. If your mother tells you lies, then you are unfortunate.

Student (2): Yeah, but I only believe her because I give her the authority. You make Bhagavad-gītā your authority.

Prabhupāda: But generally we have to believe. Generally we have to believe mother; there is no other way. To understand the father, generally you have to accept the statement of mother. If your mother tells you lies, that is misfortune.

Student (1): Yeah, but you're not giving us any sort of answers. You're just sort of saying, "Believe in us. Assume that you believe in us." So why don't you give us an answer?

Prabhupāda: No, believe . . . you have to believe. You have to believe. Otherwise you cannot make progress. You have to believe.

Student (1): Yeah, but say you're in a position of not particularly believing in anybody. I mean, there's loads of organizations going around, "Believe in us, believe in us."

Prabhupāda: No, if you don't believe, that is a different thing

Revatīnandana: No, what he's saying is this. Now he's saying also, this Guru Maharaj-ji, he says: "You believe in me, and I'll show you everything." Now he's saying that . . . what he's accusing is . . .

Prabhupāda: But who cares for the Guru Mahārāja?

Revatīnandana: He cares.

Prabhupāda: Here is Nārada, Devala, Vyāsa, authority.

Student (3): No, we're not saying we do, but some people do, anyway.

Student (1): Yeah, they'll argue just as convincingly as you.

Prabhupāda: But everyone can say: "I am God." Then how you'll understand? If Guru Mahārāja says, I can say also. He can say. Then go on studying who is God. The same question: Everyone says: "I am your father," "I am your father," "I am your father," but whom you have to believe? You have to believe only mother.

Student (3): Okay, well who's the mother in this case?

Revatīnandana: The śāstra, revealed scriptures. They give information about the father.

Prabhupāda: Śāstra-cakṣuṣā.

Student (1): What about the Bible? That'll tell me something else altogether.

Revatīnandana: Yes. No, it won't. It will tell you almost identical information. If you go in the Bible, it will say: "God is your father." "Father" means he is sufficient to beget a son. Now, if God is a void, how can a son come out from a void?

Prabhupāda: We have no such experience.

Revatīnandana: But if God is a person, then He can have son. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa says: "I am the father of every living being." Therefore Bible and Bhagavad-gītā, they are saying the same thing, but not that "God is void or light." Not saying that. Somebody else is saying that. Therefore we are very, very skeptical now. He has not got the authority of these scriptures. If he says, "Your father is a void," that is nonsense.

Prabhupāda: And where is our experience—from void a son is born? Where is your experience?

Student (3): What do you mean?

Prabhupāda: Suppose you are a person. You have dropped from the void?

Student (3): I'm not arguing for Divine Light or anything. I'm just trying to . . .

Revatīnandana: No, just take it philosophically. Can a person come from a void? Void means zero. But a person is not zero. He has so many personal qualities.

Student (3): I mean, if you stick to strict logic, you can't . . . no, right. But I mean this isn't logical, is it?

Revatīnandana: Sometimes by logic you can find out what is false. What is truth, that we get from authority.

Student (1): You say it is logic because, say, everything in that book fits in with everything else, maybe. So it's a total form of logic in itself.

Revatīnandana: Yes.

Student: Your logic starts from the assumption that the book is correct.

Prabhupāda: Then why you are arguing? That is logic. Why you are arguing? Why don't you accept what I say? Why you are arguing? That is logic.

Student (3): Because so many people say different things, which conflict.

Prabhupāda: Therefore you are taking the shelter of logic. You are taking the shelter.

Student (1): Logic . . . logic is arguing, isn't it?

Prabhupāda: No, logic means argument, reasoning. Our logic is because Kṛṣṇa is accepted by all great person, authorities, we accept. Our logic is simple.

Student (1): But Christians might say the same thing. They might say: "Look at the Bible. This is our logic."

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. They accept God; we accept God. The only difference is they do not know who is God, but we know who is God.

Student (1): No, they know who is God as well.

Prabhupāda: No.

Revatīnandana: You won't get any good information about God. "God is great. God created"—finished. That's not very much information. God's son? A little more information about God's son.

Student (1): But you've got no more right to say you know who is God than they have.

Revatīnandana: Oh, well, we have a lot more information about God, you see.

Student (1): In which way?

Revatīnandana: In these Vedas. There's a difference between the arithmetic book you get in the first grade of school and the calculus book, in terms of the amount of information. We can tell you more about God because the Vedas give more information than the Bible. But the basic principle—"God is there. God is a person"—is in both places.

Prabhupāda: Jesus Christ is son of God. Therefore God must be person. A person can beget a son.

Student (1): God exists now.

Prabhupāda: Yes, always exists.

Student (1): But therefore where is He, if He's a person?

Prabhupāda: Why is He?

Revatīnandana: Where is He?

Prabhupāda: Where is He? He is with you. He is here. But you have no eyes to see, that's all.

Revatīnandana: He says: "I'm sitting in everyone's heart, and from Me comes knowledge, remembrance and forgetfulness." If you turn toward Him, He will give you knowledge, and you'll be able to see Him. But you have to find out who to turn toward. Then you can turn. So from saintly authorities, the line of masters and the Vedas, we find out where to turn. And if you turn properly, then by Kṛṣṇa's grace, you'll see Kṛṣṇa. He'll reveal Himself in the course of time.

Student (2): Have you all seen Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Revatīnandana: He asked if we have all seen Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: We are daily, every moment, seeing. Every moment. Otherwise, do you mean to say we are blindly following something?

Student (2): No, I'm not saying that. I'm just asking if someone comes along and joins you, do they see Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Yes, why don't you see Kṛṣṇa? There is picture of Kṛṣṇa. Why don't you see, driving horse? Here is Kṛṣṇa. Why don't you see? If you see the photograph of your father, is it not seeing your father?

Student (2): No.

Prabhupāda: No, then what can I talk with?

Student (2): All I was saying was is it . . . when someone comes . . .

Prabhupāda: Here the photograph of your . . . seeing the photograph of your father, is it not seeing your father? That's your argument?

Student (1): No, it's seeing a photograph of your father.

Prabhupāda: False?

Revatīnandana: It's seeing a photograph of the father.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now . . . but God is Absolute. God's and God's photograph, there is no difference. God's and God's name, there is no difference. Therefore God is Absolute. He is not relative. You can say: "The photograph is not my father," that because it is relative. But God is Absolute. God's name, God's form, God's pastimes—everything is God.

That you have to understand, Absolute nature. Otherwise, are these boys and so many thousands and thousands of devotees . . . they are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. If Kṛṣṇa, this name, is different from Kṛṣṇa, are they foolishly simply chanting "Kṛṣṇa"?

Student (1): I don't know, but . . .

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's name is the same. Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's photograph is the same. That you have to understand. Kṛṣṇa is Absolute.

Student (1): Do you mean Kṛṣṇa is Absolute and Kṛṣṇa is everything?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Student (1): Then why does Kṛṣṇa have a specific form?

Prabhupāda: And why not? Kṛṣṇa is everything. Suppose I if I say: "I am everything in this, my institution," does it mean I have lost my personality?

Student (1): But you are not . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. If I say, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement . . . if somebody says that, "BhaktiVedānta Swami is everything," does it mean I have lost my personality? That is material understanding. Kṛṣṇa keeps His personality; still, He is everything.

Revatīnandana: Just see. In the government there are so many cabinet ministers, offices, etc. And in every cabinet minister and in every office the will of the prime minister is going on. Therefore in one sense the prime minister is everything. Still, the prime minister is a person who is in control of all those cabinet officers and offices. And you won't find the prime minister in each office, but he's there, because of his influence. In the same way, you are in Kṛṣṇa's energies, and He is everywhere through His energies, but He remains the person in control. The same thing.

Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtani na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ (BG 9.4). Although you do not find Kṛṣṇa in somewhere, but His energy is acting there. So one who has eyes to see how Kṛṣṇa's energy is acting, he sees Kṛṣṇa. Same example: because the prime minister's energy is working in that office, so the prime minister is there present.

So everything is demonstration of the energy. Just like you are in the room, you have not seen the sun, but as soon as the sunshine is there, you know that sun is there. You see the sun through the sunshine, although it is not that sun has come into your room. The sunshine, coming of the sunshine within your room, is sufficient knowledge to know that here is sun, sun is there. That is the Vedic statement, that you can understand there is fire when there is heat. If there is light and heat, then you can understand there is fire. That heat and light is sufficient. Now, what is the heat and light? This is energy of the fire.

So when Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, "These material elements," bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ (BG 7.4), "earth, water, fire, air, they are My energies," so if one has studied Kṛṣṇa, then as soon as He sees a great ocean, He sees Kṛṣṇa: "Oh, this is Kṛṣṇa's energy." As soon as sees a big anything, fire, water, anything, He sees Kṛṣṇa, nothing but Kṛṣṇa, because He knows. Exactly in the same way, as soon as you feel heat, you know that there is fire. You don't require to see the fire. But if you feel, "Oh, it is hot. Oh, there must be fire." This is studying Kṛṣṇa. And this is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness: to feel the presence of Kṛṣṇa everywhere.

So everything requires training, undergoing the process. Then it is possible. It is not impossible. So if you also go, the training, the process, you'll also understand. It is not difficult.

Student (3): To be Kṛṣṇa conscious, one needs faith that Kṛṣṇa exists, and . . .

Prabhupāda: Not only "Kṛṣṇa exists," "What is my relationship with Kṛṣṇa? What is my duty in that relationship?" Everything.

Revatīnandana: Just see. Who can produce this? (referring to flower) Who can produce something like this? Supposing you take your best chemists and engineers . . .

Student (3): Well, you must call it God, mustn't you.

Revatīnandana: And you see who can produce, right? They cannot produce anything with this texture, this nice smell, you see?

Prabhupāda: He knows it.

Student (3): It doesn't smell.

Revatīnandana: So many persons can make an artificial flower that's not as nice as that one, but they cannot reproduce that. And then we say that Kṛṣṇa is the Personality of Godhead, who is full of knowledge, full of beauty, full of power. With full knowledge, beauty and power . . .

Prabhupāda: Because He has got full knowledge, He knows how to . . . now, this flower has come from earth, and other flower has come also from the earth. But the fragrance is within the earth. But you cannot take the fragrance from the earth. You do not know. But Kṛṣṇa is taking. Just see. Therefore His knowledge is perfect. Omnipotent, omniscient. He knows how to take. He knows the process. So many flowers are coming.

Revatīnandana: Then, when you can see a flower in this consciousness, then you can see Kṛṣṇa. Through that flower, Kṛṣṇa is smiling at you. He is offering, He is smiling at you through that flower, and He is there, smiling.

Student (3): I can see a God, smiling at me from the flower.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: That's right.

Student (3): I see no relationship with the flower . . . (indistinct) . . . Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: So but you do not know who is God. That is the difference.

Revatīnandana: Kṛṣṇa's saying: "I am the cause of everything. From Me the whole creation flows." He is the person who has designed the flower that you cannot design. And if you want to see Him directly, if you want to associate with Him personally, He says: "Only by pure love and devotion can I be seen." Therefore our yoga is to love Kṛṣṇa. And then you can see everything when you see Kṛṣṇa.

Student (2): But this is your yoga, right?

Revatīnandana: It's Kṛṣṇa's yoga.

Student (2): Yeah okay, well, but . . .

Prabhupāda: yoga means connection. As soon as you study Kṛṣṇa in this way, you make your connection with Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection of yoga. yoga means connection, the Sanskrit word yoga. And the opposite word is viyoga, disconnection. yoga-viyoga. So yoga means, real yoga means to connect your relationship, your identity, with Kṛṣṇa. That is called yoga. Hmm. So take little prasādam. Come on.

Revatīnandana: Take some little sweet.

Student (2): Thank you.

Prabhupāda: Come on.

Student (2): I can't.

Prabhupāda: No, no, I will give you.

Student (2): Thanks.

Prabhupāda: So let us stop here. Next I can give some talk.

Revatīnandana: All glories to Prabhupāda. (offers obeisances) So Prabhupāda will take some rest now.

Student (3): Thanks very much for talking to us.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you very much. (guests leave) So bring little milk.

Devotees: (indistinct discussion) 10 o'clock . . . quarter to Ten.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yes. (end)