730211 - Lecture BG 03.36-37 - Melbourne

Lectures by Date, 1973

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

730211BG-MELBOURNE - February 11, 1973 - 61:00 Minutes

Prabhupāda:

atha kena prayukto 'yaṁ

pāpaṁ carati pūruṣaḥ

anicchann api vārṣṇeya

balād iva niyojitaḥ

kāma eṣa krodha eṣa

rajo-guṇa-samudbhavaḥ

mahāśano mahā-pāpmā

viddhy enam iha vairiṇam

(BG 3.36–37)

So, Kṛṣṇa . . . these are verses, two verses from Bhagavad-gītā, Third Chapter, verse number 36, 37. There, Kṛṣṇa . . . Arjuna inquired:

atha kena prayukto 'yaṁ

pāpaṁ carati pūruṣaḥ

(BG 3.36)

How a man . . . because pāpaṁ means sin, and puṇya means pious activities, piety. These pious and vicious, these two activities are concern to the human, pāpaṁ and puṇya. It is not to the animals. Animals, they are not subjected to the rules and regulations. Just like state law—state laws are meant for human beings, not for the cats and dogs. Just like you drive your car, ah . . . you know what is the rule here? Keep to the right or keep to the left?

Devotees: Left. Keep to the left.

Prabhupāda: Left. Yes. In America it is keep to the right. So if you act against the law of the state, if you drive your car either right or left—because in different countries it changes—so you become criminal. But a dog or a cat or a cow, if he crosses the road right or left, it is not subject to the law. Therefore all laws, all scriptures, all regulation—everything—is meant for the human being, not for the cats and dogs. Therefore any society which is not subjected to the rules and regulation, this is animal society.

We are trying to be free from the rules and regulation, but that is meant for the animals, not for the human being. We have forgotten. We want freedom. We say that "We don't want to be regulated." That is not possible by nature. By nature . . . suppose you can eat up to certain extent. Say eight ounce you can eat. As soon as you eat ten ounce, immediately you become diseased. Other man, he can eat sixteen ounce, he does not fall ill. But your capacity, suppose you can eat eight ounce . . .

Just like elephant, elephant can eat forty kilogram at a time. You cannot eat even one kilogram. So different persons, different living entities, they are different meant; they have got different body according to the nature's law. You cannot violate the nature's law. If you violate you become criminal, you become punished. Similarly, in the human society, civilized human society, there are principles, laws, one has to obey. Either you obey the scripture or you obey the state law—you have to obey. If you don't obey, then you are put into the jail. So this is going on. But Arjuna inquired a very intelligent question, that:

atha kena prayukto 'yaṁ

pāpaṁ carati pūruṣaḥ

anicchann api vārṣṇeya

balād iva niyojitaḥ

(BG 3.36)

"My dear Kṛṣṇa, what is that power which forces us to commit sinful activities? I do not like." Sometimes . . . just like the vivid example: a thief. A thief knows that if he commits theft he will be punished by the state law. He has heard it from the lawyers, from friend, and he has heard it from the scripture. No religious scripture will say that "You go on stealing." No. Either it is Christian religion or Hindu religion, no religion will tell you that "You become a thief, you become a rogue, you become a sinful . . ." No. So scripture says that you don't become a thief. And the law says also that you don't become a thief. He has heard it. And he's seen it also. What is that? That a man who has stolen some property, others', he's arrested. The police is taking him to the custody; he's punished.

So a thief, he knows that stealing is bad. He has seen it also that a thief is punished. Still he commits theft. Why? This is the question. This is the question, that atha kena prayukto 'yaṁ pāpaṁ carati pūruṣaḥ (BG 3.36). How a man is forced to commit sinful activities? Kena. What is that force which influences him that, "You do it. You must"? You are doing. Sometimes our conscience bids, "No, no. Don't do it." But we forcibly do it. So what is that force? Very intelligent question.

atha kena prayukto 'yaṁ

pāpaṁ carati pūruṣaḥ

(BG 3.36)

Because to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, it is not very easy thing. Kṛṣṇa says in another place:

yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ

janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām

te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā

bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ

(BG 7.28)

These boys and girls whom you see, they are engaged in the service of the Lord. They are not ordinary boys. Their reaction of sinful life is finished. Therefore they are so steadily engaged, twenty-four hours we see, from early in the morning, four o'clock, they are engaged in Deity worship. They are coming from your community—they are not imported from India, like that boy asked, or I have bribed them to do like that. No. They've got an attachment. Exactly at three o'clock they'll rise, they'll take bath, they'll offer ārati at four o'clock, and they're doing. All regulative principles they will do. And that is the sign that they are free from the reaction of all sinful activities. This is a sign. This is the proof.

Lord Kṛṣṇa says that, yeṣāṁ anta-gataṁ pāpam: one who is completely free from all sinful reaction of life, they, such persons, dvandva-moha-nirmuktā (BG 7.28), without any duality. Because if I say, outsider that, "You come early in the morning and you take your bath and engage yourself maṅgala-ārati and do this," he will not be able. Unless one has developed a sense of service to Kṛṣṇa, one cannot do it. It is not so easy. It is not so easy. This is the proof that one has become freed from all sinful reaction. Because phalena paricīyate. We have to understand by the result.

As soon as you see one man is sitting on the bench of the high court, you must know he is very learned man and learned lawyer—he has passed already. That is the test. You cannot ask a high court judge, "Have you passed your M.A. examination?" No. There is no need of questioning. Because he is sitting on that high court bench, it is to be understood that he is a learned scholar, he is great lawyer; therefore government has given this post. Similarly, as soon as we see somebody is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's regulative service, you should know that he is above all kinds of reaction of sinful life. This is the proof.

Now, we prescribe four regulative principles. When our student become serious to be initiated, we ask that you must give up these four prohibited principles. (child talking) So, no illicit sex life, no gambling, no meat-eating . . .

(aside) Who is talking outside?

. . . and no intoxication. So it is very difficult for the Western people to give up all these four principles of life, because these things are ordinary dealings. Here people are accustomed to all these habits from the very beginning. Even one very big man, Lord Zetland . . .

(aside) Who is talking?

Devotee: I'm asking them . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Oh. So one of our Godbrothers, he went to London and he met Lord Zetland. He got some introduction letter from India. This Lord Zetland, sometimes he was governor of Bengal. So when we were student, he came to our college. He was very learned philosopher; especially he was lover of Indian philosophy. So that my Godbrother saw the Marquis of Zetland, he inquired that, "Swāmījī, can you make me a brahmin?" He said: "Why not? We can make you brahmin." "So what is to be done?" So he asked him that, "You give up these four principles of sinful life: no illicit sex, no gambling, no meat-eating and no intoxication." So he immediately replied, "Impossible. Impossible. This is not possible for us. This is our life. We cannot give up this." So that Swāmījī replied, "Then you cannot become a brahmin." This is the principle.

So brāhmin means one who knows God. Brahma jānāti iti brāhmana. brāhmin is not by birth. So anyone who can understand what is God, he becomes brāhmin. The same example: anyone who is highly learned scholar and lawyer, he becomes a high court judge. Or if you see one high court judge, it is to be understood that he has passed all these. Similarly, brāhmin means one who knows God. Unless you know God, unless you know Kṛṣṇa, you cannot engage yourself fully, devoutly, in the service of the Lord. It is . . . Kṛṣṇa is unlimited. It is not possible to know Him fully. But svalpam apy asya dharmasya (BG 2.40): if you understand Him slightly—it is not possible to understand Him fully; slightly—then you become a brāhmin.

So brāhmin means there is no sinful activity. All your pious life. Satyaṁ śaucam . . . satyaṁ, śaucam, āstikyam, jñānaṁ, vijñānam, śamo, dama (SB 1.16.26)—these are the qualification. Satyaṁ means a brāhmin is truthful, and he's controlling the mind, he's controlling the senses. Śamo dama titikṣa: he's tolerant, and ārjavam, he's very simple. Life is very simple. Jñānaṁ—full of knowledge; vijñānaṁ—practical application of knowledge in life; and āstikyam—believer, not unbeliever; believer in the existence of God. These are the qualification of brāhmin.

So the more one becomes sinful, he becomes degraded more and more. Therefore there are divisions of the society. That should be. Unless human society it will be divided into the principles, as they are spoken by Kṛṣṇa:

cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ

guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ

(BG 4.13)

Guna-karma: according to quality and work. Just like if you are qualified medical practitioner, you have passed the medical examination, that is your quality. But you must practice also as a medical man; then people will call you as physician. If you simply pass your medical examination and sit down at home, nobody will call you physician. When you practically engage yourself in medical business, then people will call you physician. If you pass your law examination, don't go to the court, don't practice, nobody will call you lawyer. Any business you see. Suppose you know how to deal with electrical fittings. But if you do not do any business, if you sit down at home, nobody will call you electrician. When you practice, then you will be called electrician—with knowledge.

Similarly, the society should be divided with quality and work. That is scientific society. That quality can be divided into four, because there are three qualities in the material nature—goodness, passion and ignorance. So goodness, those who are qualified in goodness, they can be called as brāhmin. Those who are qualified with passion, they can be called a kṣatriya. Kṣatriya means the politicians, administrators. brāhmin means highly learned scholars, philosophers, theosophist, theologist, priests—like that. They are called brāhmin. So this society's division is already there. Anywhere you go, all over the world, the division is already, because there are three qualities of nature, and any man you find, he must be under one quality. So according to that quality, he is divided as a brāhmin, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Quality. Not only quality; action also.

So the society should be divided into four classes of men. That is natural. Just like in your body there are four divisions: the head division, the arm division, the belly division and the leg division. You cannot avoid it. If you simply say that, "I shall keep my head only," that is not possible. If you say that, "I should keep my legs only," no, that will not do. If you say that "I shall keep my hands only," no, that will not do.

You must keep the whole things—the head, the arms and the belly and the legs. Then your body is a healthy condition and will work very nicely. When you have to do something, you have to tax your brain. That is the business of the brain. When you have to protect yourself, your hands will be required. If somebody comes to attack you, you immediately expand your hand or take some weapon to protect yourself. So this is necessary. And when you want to digest food, the belly is required. Because without digesting food, where shall you get the strength? That is also required. And when you want to move, the legs are required.

Similarly, the society should be divided into four classes of men. The persons who are really possessing brain, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness men. So at the present moment there is need of such men. What kind of men? Kṛṣṇa conscious. What is that Kṛṣṇa conscious man? One who knows himself and knows God. That is first-class intelligent man. The society is now practically is composed of the legs and the belly. The hands and heads are gone of the human society. So there is confusion, because there is no head who can give you good consultation how life should be led, how we should make progress in life, how we shall fulfill our human mission of life. The head is gone. The . . . in every country, those who are supposed to be on the counselor in the matter of giving people good ideas how to conduct society, that men, class of men, is finished now. Similarly, the administrative class of men.

Now it is days of democracy; there is no trained administrators. Anyone from the third-class, fourth-class grade of society, if somehow or other he gets some vote, he comes to the power. But that should not be there. Everyone should be educated. A kṣatriya . . . formerly there was king according to Vedic idea. The kings were sufficiently educated how to administer the citizens, how to give them all comforts. Just like in Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira's time, you will find from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, you'll see that people were so happy that even there was no excessive heat or excessive cold, and nobody was anxious; everyone was free.

That is the first duty of the government, to see that every citizen is happy. It's a great science, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is not that we are simply concerned with worshiping this Deity. No. We have got volumes of book. It is . . . it is a science how to make people happy in this life as well as the next life. Not only in this life, but in the next life. Because this life is preparation for the next life. Just like childhood, boyhood, youthhood is the preparation for the next life. Why we send our children to school? Because that is preparation for the next life. Otherwise let him play all the night, all the day. Why you should be, parents, why anxious to send him to educational institution? It is preparation for the next life.

Similarly, this life is also meant for next life. Evolution. Why evolution? From aquatics to the birds, beasts, insect, animals, then we come to the human form of life, especially in a civilized human form of life. So if you prepare yourself in this life, then next life you can improve more. You can become demigod; you can go to higher planetary system, where duration of life, standard of comfort, is very, very high, thousand times, thousand times comfortable than at the present moment. Similarly, you can transfer yourself to the abode of God. These are stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. You'll find:

yānti deva-vratā devān

pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ

bhūtejyā yānti bhūtāni

mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām

(BG 9.25)

So this life is preparation.

Guest: What does that mean? Excuse me?

Devotee: You can speak, ask questions, afterward.

Guest: The thing you just said then . . .

Devotee: Yes. You can ask questions after the lecture.

Prabhupāda: (to guest) At the end of this, if you come.

So if you do not prepare yourself in this life, if you simply become engaged in sinful activities, then you'll be degraded. As you are elevated to the human form of life, if you do not utilize this human form of life, if we behave like animals, then we shall be converted again into animals. People not, I mean to say, afraid of becoming animals. I have asked so many people that, "Suppose if you become animal in the next life?"

He says: "What is the harm?" People have become so degraded that one does not become afraid of becoming animal. They are thinking there is no . . . because their life has been so modeled, it is no better than animal life. So they do not see any difference between animal life and human life. Therefore to become animal or human being, they do not mind. This is the position.

So this question was raised by Arjuna that, "This life is meant for elevating to further, higher standard of life. Why people, they degrade? Why they are degraded?" So Kṛṣṇa, when this question was raised by Arjuna to Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa answered:

kāma eṣa krodha eṣa

rajo-guṇa-samudbhavaḥ

(BG 3.37)

"My dear Arjuna, this is due to lust and anger." Kāma eṣa krodha, rajo-guṇa-samudbhavaḥ. This is due to our association with the modes of material nature known as passion.

kāma eṣa krodha eṣa

rajo-guṇa-samudbhavaḥ

(BG 3.37)

Mahāśano. Therefore these two things—kāma means "lust," and krodha, "anger"—they are our greatest enemies. Lust and anger. Mahāśano mahā-pāpmā—they are the greatest sins, mahā-pāpmā. Viddhy enam iha vairiṇam (BG 3.37). So you should always consider them as your greatest enemy, kāma and krodha. That makes us entangled in this material world, rajo-guṇa. And lower than that, tamo guna. Tamo guna is ignorance.

So there is very nice . . .

(to guest) Why you was going away? I'll answer your question.

So in order to make progress of your life you must give up these two enemies: kāma, means lust, and anger. This is the proposition of Kṛṣṇa:

kāma eṣa krodha eṣa

rajo-guṇa-samudbhavaḥ

(BG 3.37)

Rajo-guṇa means passion, to become passionate. So if we want to control passion, then we have to eat in such a way, deal in such a way, live in such a way that we control passion and come to the platform of goodness. From ignorance we come to the platform of passion, and from passion . . . ignorant means they are fourth-class men. They do not want to work. And the passion means they want to work for sense enjoyment. This is the passion and ignorance. And those who are in the modes of goodness, they want to work for a higher, I mean to say, elevation of life—going to the plane . . . higher planetary system.

There are different planetary systems. They . . . do not think that there are vacant only. No. That is not the fact. Just like this planet is full of living entities, similarly all other planets are full of living entities. There are different grades. Just like the . . . in this planet also there are inhabitants in Africa and there are inhabitants in Europe, America, Australia, and the quality of man are different. Similarly, as we find different qualities of men even on this planet, similarly in other planets also there are different qualities of human being.

Generally, in the higher planetary system they are more intelligent than the human being. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ (BG 14.18). Those who are on the platform of goodness, ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti, they are promoted to the higher planetary system. Above our planet there are so many other planets. This is called Bhūr-loka. Above this, Bhuvar-loka; there is Svargaloka, then Janaloka, then Tapoloka, then Maharloka, then Satyaloka, then there is spiritual sky. Then there is spiritual planet. There are so many things.

It is not that we are . . . kūpa-maṇḍūka-nyāya. Kūpa-maṇḍūka-nyāya, Dr. Frog. A frog lives in a well, three feet, that's all. So if he's informed that there is Atlantic Ocean, Pacific Ocean, he becomes surprised—"How is that? What is that Pacific Ocean?" he will ask. He will try to measure Pacific Ocean from the well. So that is not possible. One who is living in the well, he must get information of the Pacific Ocean if he cannot get out.

So similarly, God's creation is very, very vast. It is not within your imagination. You cannot know even within this universe. This universe, we are trying to go to the moon planet; that is also failure. That is the nearest planet. But there are . . . you can see millions and trillions of planets all distributed within the universe. And not only in this one universe—there are millions and trillions of universes also. This information we get.

yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi-

koṭiṣv aśeṣa-vasudhādi vibhūti-bhinnam

(Bs. 5.40)

There are innumerable universes. And so many universes are coming out from the breathing of Mahā-Viṣṇu—yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya (Bs. 5.48).

So God is not so cheap. We have got conception of God, that we get conception from the śāstras, from the breathing of one of the portion of God, Mahā-Viṣṇu, and innumerable universes are coming out, and just like we are exhaling, inhaling. With the exhaling, universes are coming out, and inhaling, universes are going within the nostril of God. We understand that is God, not a magician you call him.

Who can become a magician than this, that innumerable universes are coming and going with the breathing process of God? That is God. So there are so many informations we have to take from the śāstras and prepare our life for the next, as is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ (BG 14.18). If you keep yourself in the sattva-guṇa, then you are elevated to the higher planetary system or to the spiritual world.

So this training, Kṛṣṇa consciousness training, is not to be promoted within this universe. Within the universe there are many planets to be . . . to be promoted. But these Kṛṣṇa conscious people, they want to go back to home, back to Godhead. That is their plan. And that is very easily possible, and it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā that:

janma karma me divyaṁ

yo jānāti tattvataḥ

(BG 4.9)

If you simply try to understand Kṛṣṇa, simply by understanding Kṛṣṇa you'll get that position. What is that? Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti. After . . . everyone has got to give up this body. That's a fact. Even people do not know that after giving up this body I will have to accept another body, better or lower according to my karma. There is no such cultivation of knowledge. But these are the facts. They are . . . we have to change this body, as you are changing from babyhood to childhood, childhood to boyhood, then youthhood. Similarly, after giving up this body I'll have to accept another body. Now the question is, "What kind of body I shall accept next?" This preparation is necessary.

So people are meant for this purpose, but due to this lust, kāma, and krodha, anger, they are being degraded. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is advising that control these two things, these two enemies, kāma, lust and, I mean to say, anger. Then you will be placed in the platform of goodness, and your life will be elevated. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so nice that you can transfer your lust into love for God. Everyone is lusty. Everyone is lusty. Man or woman, everyone is lusty. But if that lust can be converted to love of God, Kṛṣṇa, then your life is successful.

Just like the gopīs. The gopīs, they were young girls, and Kṛṣṇa was young boy. So they were attracted by Kṛṣṇa. They did not know that Kṛṣṇa is God, but they were attracted by Kṛṣṇa, by Kṛṣṇa's exquisite beauty. Kāma. Kāma, krodha. They were attracted. Similarly, Kaṁsa was attracted to Kṛṣṇa by krodha, krodha, the anger. Lust and anger. The gopīs were attracted to Kṛṣṇa by lust, and Kaṁsa was attracted by anger. So even these base mentality, if it is utilized for Kṛṣṇa, then there is . . . if we want to use our anger upon Kṛṣṇa, and if we want to utilize Kṛṣṇa for satisfying our lust, then also you become Kṛṣṇa conscious and highly elevated. So that is possible. That is possible.

So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so nice that you can utilize your anger even for Kṛṣṇa. Just like Hanumān. Hanumān, he became very angry, and he set fire to the golden kingdom of Rāvaṇa. That is anger. Because without being angry you cannot set fire to other's house. So he did it, but he did it for Rāmacandra, not for his personal sense gratification. So this kāma krodha, everything . . . Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says, kāma kṛṣṇa kāmārpaṇe. Kāma, you can utilize your kāma, lust, for Kṛṣṇa: "I must do this for Kṛṣṇa. I must act like this for Kṛṣṇa." Just like ordinary people, they are working day and night very hard, but what is the purpose? The purpose is sense gratification. The same desires, strong desires that, "I must get it done; I must have it," for Kṛṣṇa, then it becomes Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

We say "consciousness." Simply you have to change the consciousness. In the material world, the consciousness is for sense gratification. I want to possess these things, because I want to satisfy my senses. This is the impetus, economic impetus. Otherwise nobody would work hard. He wants to satisfy his senses or expanded senses. His senses or family senses or nation's senses, community senses—the purpose is sense gratification; it may be centralized or expanded. This is the world going on. This is another . . . one consciousness. The other consciousness,not other—the consciousness is there, either this way or that way—if it is changed into Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction, as our consciousness is now for my sense gratification, my society's sense gratification, my nation's sense gratification, similarly, if we change it to Kṛṣṇa's sense gratification, then we become perfect. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

We have nothing to learn; it is already there. The kāma, the lust, is there. Krodha is there, lobha is there, greediness is there. Everything should be changed for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction. So you cannot manufacture, that "I am doing this for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction." It must be confirmed by Kṛṣṇa or Kṛṣṇa's representative. Then such kind of activities will lead you to the highest perfection of life. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā.

What is that highest perfection of life? The highest perfection of life is tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9): after giving up . . . we have to give up this body; this is as sure as anything. So the problem is, after giving up this body, what sort of body I am going to accept? That is assured in the Bhagavad-gītā, that tyaktvā dehaṁ: after giving up this body, punar janma naiti. Punar janma means rebirth. Rebirth . . . there is no rebirth. There is no rebirth means there is no rebirth for possessing a material body. Because a spirit soul has neither birth nor death. There is no question of rebirth, because he has no birth. You, me and everyone, we have no rebirth, neither you are born. Na jāyate na mriyate kadācin (BG 2.20). A living entity is never born or never dies. What is this birth and death? This is the change of the body. Change of the body. So tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti: after giving up this material body he does not accept material body, but he has got already spiritual body. That remains, and that works, and that is transferred to the spiritual world. That is the highest perfection of life—tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti. Punar janma naiti: "He does not get rebirth with a material body, but he comes to Me. Comes to Me."

Kṛṣṇa, or God, is all-spirit. Therefore we have to go back to Godhead means with spiritual body, not with material body. That is your highest perfection.

mām upetya kaunteya

duḥkhālayam aśāśvataṁ

(BG 8.15)

That is the highest perfection. If anyone comes back to Kṛṣṇa, God, with a spiritual body, then he does not come back within this material world, which is full of miserable condition, duḥkhālayam. That is māyā. We are always in miserable condition of life, but we do not understand. This is called māyā. Just as the . . . (indistinct) . . . cats and dogs, they are animals. They are in a miserable condition of life, but it does not understand. That is animal life. A hog is eating stool and lying in filthy place, but he thinks that he is very happy. He thinks. This is called māyā. Prakṣepātmika-śakti. You are in most abominable condition of life, but still I am thinking I am very happy. This is called māyā.

But those who are not in that condition of life, they think, "Oh, how horrible condition." Just like when you see a hog is eating stool and lying in filthy place, you become compassionate. But he's thinking that he's very happy. So that is applicable to every one of us. We are not actually in happy condition of life. We are in distressed condition of life, miserable condition of life. But by the influence of nature, by the modes of nature, we are thinking that "I am happy." That is actually not happiness. Our actual happiness is . . . that is also pointed out in the Bhagavad-gītā. Our actual distresses are janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9): janma, to take birth; to die; to become diseased; or to become old. These are our real distresses. But we don't care for it. Neither you know how to get out of it.

But this is possible. By Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement you can get out, get out of all this miserable condition of life. You can go back to home, back to Godhead, and evolve your eternal life. And eternally, you can enjoy life with Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Try to understand.

Thank you very much.

Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa. All glories to Prabhupāda. (break)

Lady guest (2): How long it takes for one to have to get a particular body of life, when coming back?

Devotee: You understand?

Prabhupāda: How long it takes?

Devotee: How long does the transmigration take?

Prabhupāda: Transmigration?

Devotee: From one life to another.

Devotee (2): One life to the next.

Prabhupāda: That depends on the previous form of life. For human being, suppose you can live for one hundred years utmost.

Lady guest (2): Hundred years?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is utmost. Nowadays no one is living up to a hundred years, because as the days are going on, people are becoming sinful, and their duration of life also becoming reduced. It will be so reduced that in future, if a man lives for twenty to thirty years, he will be considered as very old man. That is stated in the śāstra. And actually, you take information of your grandfather's age, your father's age and your age, it is reducing, due to sinful activities. But the maximum a human being can live is round about one hundred years. That's all.

So it depends relatively: ant's life or the dog's life or the cat's life or the horse's life or the elephant's life, like that—the tree's life. The tree lives for thousands of years. I have seen one tree in San Francisco . . .

(break) . . . then you are already in the spiritual platform. That is stated in the Śrīmad Bhagavad-gītā:

māṁ ca 'vyabhicāreṇa

bhakti-yogena ya sevate

sa guṇān samatītyaitān

brahma-bhūyāya kalpate

(BG 14.26)

Anyone who is engaged in devotional service, unflinching devotional service, he's already on the Brahma stage, on the spiritual platform. He's already. He's not in the material platform.

This temple and these temple activities, they are not in Melbourne; they are in the spiritual world. Just like your embassy, Australian embassy. The members of the Australian embassy, suppose they are in foreign countries. They are not in foreign countries, they are in Australia. You know this international law? Suppose a embassy man has committed some mistake or violated the state law, he cannot be arrested so long he is in the embassy.

He cannot be arrested, unless the particular government hands him over. This is the etiquette. Suppose if your Australian ship goes to India. So long you are on the Australian ship, you are not under the Indian laws. These are international law. Similarly, so long one is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service in this temple, he's not in Melbourne or in this material world. He's in the spiritual world. This is the principle.

Guest (3): In your book Easy Journey to Other Planets, you've got here after death someone is promoted to the moon, and you receive the capacity to enjoy drinking of soma-rasa. What is that?

Prabhupāda: In soma . . . the moon planet is very cold. That is also accepted by the Russian scientist. He said—perhaps you know—that the temperature in the moon planet is 200 degrees below zero. It is very cold. So therefore they use a certain kind of vegetable juice, which is called soma-rasa. Beverage. Just like you drink in your country beers and liquors, similarly they also drink the soma-rasa. Is that clear?

Guest (3): And when it's brought up in the Ṛg Veda, what was it they worshiped there?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Vedic literature gives you direction how you can go to the moon planet. There is direction. There is also direction in the Bhagavad-gītā: yānti deva-vratā devān (BG 9.25). Devān means the planetary system occupied by the demigods. You can go there if you prepare yourself to go, next life. But you cannot go by these sputniks. That is not possible. You see? You have to prepare. Just like to come to your country one has to prepare to take the visa, to take the passport, take the permission—so many things.

Not that all of a sudden he comes and enters. That is not possible. So if it is not possible within this planet, how you're expecting that you go to the moon planet, which is inhabited by the demigods, by your machine will push you? No, you cannot go. This is all nonsense. That is a scandal, childish. You have to prepare yourself to go there. First of all you cannot go in this body because the temperature is so low, you cannot live there.

Guest (3): And if I wanted to read the Ṛg Veda, which version should I read? Which would you recommend?

Prabhupāda: No. When you read Vedas, you read everything. Why this portion or that portion? Ṛg Veda, the portion which is teaching tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ (Ṛg Veda 1.22.20), that portion means worshiping portion. The Vedas are divided into three portions, karma-kāṇḍa, jñāna-kanda and upāsana. Upāsana means "worship." So they are recommendation for worshiping different types of demigods. But the ultimate worship is recommended, Viṣṇu worship. Tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ. So we are teaching that Viṣṇu worship, the topmost worship. Then it is first-class worship. That we are teaching.

Devotee: There's a question.

Guest (4): In the three modes of material nature, do we fit into one category, or is there a sharp line dividing us from ignorance and passion and goodness, or is it just a sort of maybe a blend of two or three or . . .?

Prabhupāda: Yes. According to the laws of material nature, if you are in the body of ignorance, then you have to gradually elevate to the body of passion; then from the passion, passionate body, you have to elevate yourself to the body of goodness. But this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so nice that you can immediately transcend all these qualitative modes of nature—immediately. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān. It is said clearly that anyone who is engaged in devotional service, he can transcend immediately all the qualitative stages of this material world.

sa guṇān samatītyaitān

brahma-bhūyāya kalpate

(BG 14.26)

Just like these boys, European, American boys, girls, they are practically in the modes of passion. But they have been elevated immediately to the spiritual platform worshiping Kṛṣṇa. That is possible. Just like if you go by steps, you have to go step by step. But you capture the elevator, the lift, immediately within seconds you go to the highest floor, topmost. They take two process. So if you want to go step by step, that is your choice. But you can accept also the lift—immediately surpasses all the steps and go to the top floor.

Lady guest (2): If we are given a body, or rather if our purpose is to return to Kṛṣṇa in this body, why are we born on this earth, and why do we have a body if we only have to go back to Him?

Prabhupāda: When you go to Kṛṣṇa you have a body, but that is spiritual body. That is not material.

Lady guest (2): But why are we given this body, to live here?

Prabhupāda: Because you wanted to enjoy this material world. Therefore . . . in the spiritual world, the enjoyer is Kṛṣṇa.

bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ

sarva-loka-maheśvaram

suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ

(BG 5.29)

He is the only enjoyer. But as soon as you desire that you want to enjoy independent of Kṛṣṇa, you are transferred to this material world.

Lady guest (2): But where do we get all our passions from, anyway? They have to be born, don't they?

Prabhupāda: No, you have got the . . . because you are part and parcel of God, so God is the complete enjoyer. So you have also that spirit to enjoy. But when you forget this principle that you cannot enjoy independently, you can enjoy along with Kṛṣṇa—then you are perfect. But as soon as you want to enjoy independently, then you come to the material world. Here in this material world, everyone is trying to enjoy life independently. Now we are simply teaching, "No, that is not possible." If you want to enjoy independently, then you become subjected to the laws of material nature.

But if you want to enjoy along with Kṛṣṇa, then you are free. Just like in this temple, what is this difference between these temple activities and other activities? Here the center is Kṛṣṇa. We are working for Kṛṣṇa, we are eating for Kṛṣṇa, we are walking for Kṛṣṇa, we are talking for Kṛṣṇa. You are also talking, you are also walking, you are also working. The same thing going on. But the difference is, here everyone is working for Kṛṣṇa. That is the difference. Therefore it is not in the material world. So you can mold your life in such a way that you work for Kṛṣṇa:

yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi yad aśnāsi

kuruṣva tat mad-arpaṇam

(BG 9.27)

Then your life is perfect. Simply you have to change the consciousness, that somebody is working for his sense gratification and somebody is working for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction. This is the difference. But after all, you have to work for satisfaction of somebody else. That is a fact. Now all of you, or all of us, we are working. Nobody can say that "I am not working" or "I am independent." Everyone is working. But they are working for their sense gratification. When we go to the office, apparently I work for the master. But I don't work for the master; I work for the money. And why I want money? For my sense gratification.

Then ultimately I am working for my sense gratification—neither for the master nor for the money. So this is our aim: for my sense gratification. The same sense, when it will be applied to Kṛṣṇa, that I am working for Kṛṣṇa, that is our liberated stage. Svarūpena avasthiti. This is our real constitutional position. We have to work for somebody else. You cannot work independently. Either for your family or for your master or for your state or for your community or for your . . . everyone. Nobody is independent. But that independence is mine. If one works independently for Kṛṣṇa, that is perfection. It is very simple. It is not difficult. Simply we have to change our consciousness.

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda . . .

Prabhupāda: Let them finish.

Devotee: Is Goloka the supreme abode? . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes, supreme abode.

goloka-nāmni nija-dhāmni tale ca tasya

devi maheśa-hari-dhāmasu teṣu teṣu

te te prabhāva-nicayā vihitāś ca yena

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

(Bs. 5.43)

This is the statement of Vedas. Goloka-nāmni nija-dhāmni: the Lord has His own abode, which is called Goloka Vṛndāvana. It is the highest planetary system. Below that, goloka-nāmni nija-dhāmni tale ca tasya, below that, devi maheśa-hari-dhāmasu teṣu teṣu. Devī-dhāma. This material world is called Devī-dhāma; it is protected by Durgā. She is the superintendent of this Devī-dhāma. Above that there is Maheśa-dhāma, Maheśa-dhāma, Śiva-loka. Above that, Hari-dhāma, Vaikuṇṭhaloka. Above that there is Goloka Vṛndāvana, or Kṛṣṇa-dhāma.

So Kṛṣṇa consciousness devotees, they are transferred directly to the Goloka Vṛndāvana-dhāma, without any care for this Devī-dhāma, Maheśa-dhāma, Hari-dhāma. Saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ.

mām upetya kaunteya

duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam

nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ

saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ

(BG 8.15)

That is the highest perfection. Mām upetya—one who preaches Kṛṣṇa in the Goloka Vṛndāvana-dhāma, that is the highest perfection of life. So? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)