720417 - Conversation - Auckland
Śyāmasundara: (introducing recording) Lecture in Prabhupāda's room. Confidential talks with his devotees on the evening of April 17th, 1972, in Auckland, New Zealand.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . just find out . . . (indistinct) . . . talks . . . (indistinct) . . . if you want to . . . (indistinct)
Hanumān: They will travel back and forth. They will travel back and . . . they will stand. Now they are building huge spaceships, will be like a city, and they will install a city there, of spaceships, so many big, like a city, and then there will be . . . there will be little spaceship going back and forth.
Prabhupāda: Utopian. (laughter) Utopian.
Hanumān: But they still, they . . . they said that there was . . . there was something like that now. One was leaving this morning five o’clock to go there on the moon. One after another was leaving this morning to go there.
Prabhupāda: That they have gone many times. It is not new thing. But they cannot stay there. They come back.
Hanumān: They cannot stay here, either, very long.
Hanumān: They cannot stay here very long, either.
Prabhupāda: Still, they can stay here at least. But there it is . . . (indistinct) . . . so how they can live there?
Hanumān: Well, they will bring everything from here, there. and then, then they can live there. (devotees laugh)
Prabhupāda: That is . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: First of all to go there, two million miles away?
Śyāmasundara: It is near nine, nine million miles.
Prabhupāda: Nine million. So the gasoline taken from here nine million to come back. That is the problem.
Hanumān: It is not exactly gasoline; it is solid. It is solid gasoline, Prabhupāda. It is solid, a kind of . . . very chemical . . .
Hanumān: . . . it is not exactly the same kind of chemical. And for a while also the Sputnik, they worked with the . . . the those . . . (indistinct) . . . in other words, they . . .
Prabhupāda: So why the astronauts are taking so much trouble? Why don't they stay? And they do not take this Kṛṣṇa consciousness and go back to home? (laughter) What is the profit by doing such business, by bringing petrol from moon planet and use it here and drive motorcar? Why they are taking so much trouble?
Hanumān: Because they are rascals. (laughter)
Indian Guest: One more thing Swamiji . . . they say why there is no living entities, because if there are any living entities then there would be some changes on the surface of the moon. Because whenever there is the living entities, there would be something there, actively, and so the actual surface of the moon would be changed. But they don't see any changes there, if there is animals. They would do some kind of activities . . .
Prabhupāda: There is no trees or . . . (indistinct)
Indian Guest: Only a rock, plain rock.
Prabhupāda: But here, so far we have already seen it, rock is reserve of living entities.
Indian Guest: Yes.
Hanumān: They say they have heard strange noise. Astronauts who go there, they say that they have heard very strange noise.
Prabhupāda: From where the noise comes?
Hanumān: They don't know, but they say it is full of noises, many kinds of noises.
Indian Guest: They don't know what is the other half of the moon. We only have seen the half moon, but we cannot see the other side of the moon, and they cannot go there because it is completely dark there. It is completely dark there.
Indian Guest: Dark, yes. There is no sunshine at all. Sunshine is only for one half of the moon. That we see from earth. And then that half remains, and that half is facing the sun all the time, while other half is completely out of sunshine.
Prabhupāda: So what is this traveling light?
Indian Guest: On the moon there is half…
Prabhupāda: It is half, but what is . . . (indistinct)?
Indian Guest: It is sunshine.
Prabhupāda: Sunshine, that it is all right. But what is there in the moonshine? . . . (indistinct) . . . What is that sunshine? That is not ordinary dust, because in ordinary dust, if there is sunshine it does not reflect.
Indian Guest: No it does not.
Indian Guest: . . . (indistinct)
Indian Guest: Yes, because they can see moonshine as dust from shining from the moon.
Hanumān: Then they consider… when you are on the planet moon, they take a picture of the planet earth, and it is just like the moon. From here the moon looks just like the earth looks from the moon.
Prabhupāda: Then the moonlight is . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughter)
Indian Guest: They do . . . yes . . . (indistinct) . . . they can actually see . . . they can see Mars from here.
Hanumān: They take picture . . . (indistinct)
Indian Guest: Wherever they come from, suppose there is one flag, flag port. And if there is one . . . (indistinct) . . . you can see it. Similarly, the whole sky is . . .
Prabhupāda: No, no, but just the other part is dark, now how it can remain dark if the shining from the earth is going there?
Indian Guest: Now what happens is that suppose there is a moon, and I mean to say there is sun, and the moon is going like that, see? So that is how it remains in light all the time. And the other half, it remains out of sunshine all the time.
Prabhupāda: Every planet is rotating.
Indian Guest: But moon is rotating in such a way that the half remains in sunshine; the other remains in dark all the time.
Prabhupāda: How it is possible?
Indian Guest: Hmm?
Prabhupāda: Rotating means it must turn. Because sunshine is very great, and all other planets they are very small. So as soon as it is rotating, it must come to be face of the sunshine.
Indian Guest: Because there are two reasons. There are two forces to the moon: one from the earth and the other from the sun. These two forces keep the moon in such a way that the half, only one half remains facing the sun, and the other half remains in the dark.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. I don't believe all this nonsense. (laughter) This is unnatural. Every planet is rotating that is called orbit . . . (indistinct) . . . so how this moon can be different from other planets? Every planet is in the outer space. They have no support. Just like . . . (indistinct) . . . it is rotating. So how the moon will be? Even sun is rotating. So what this moon has got that it has got different method? So everything to me, actually, it appears to be . . . (indistinct) . . . and they have not gone to the other side. Why? Why this is?
Indian Guest: No. Darkness prevails. It is dark there, completely dark.
Prabhupāda: So that means that part never comes to the sunshine?
Indian Guest: No.
Prabhupāda: So that is impractical. Sun is also rotating. So, sun also by rotating, it does not light that part? This is moon; it is not rotating. But sun is rotating, so why it does not shine the other part?
Indian Guest: The sun is rotating with moon.
Indian Guest: Sun is rotating with moon . . . (indistinct) . . . light.
Prabhupāda: The sun is rotating with all the planets?
Indian Guest: Yes.
Prabhupāda: All the planets.
Indian Guest: Hmm.
Prabhupāda: That is another. The whole planetary system is . . .
Indian Guest: Is rotating, yes.
Prabhupāda: The center is the polestar.
Indian Guest: That's it.
Prabhupāda: So that is another rotating.
Indian Guest: Yes. The moon is rotating around earth. But again, earth is rotating around the sun. So sun and moon are in . . . more than earth, they are both rotating around the sun, but again moon is rotating around earth too. And this moon, earth is rotating around sun.
Prabhupāda: There are many other planets, they're also rotating.
Indian Guest: Oh, yes. They are all rotating.
Prabhupāda: All rotating. Moon is only small. Actually smaller than the earth.
Indian Guest: No, no. . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: So you can go on speculating, but so far we are concerned—it is coming from śāstra—moon planet is one of the heavenly planets. The residents of that planet, they're all demigods.
Indian Guest: Hmm.
Prabhupāda: So the demigods means they have got very, very long duration of life. They are more intelligent; their standard of living is so much better. So these things we have got information. If they describe the moon planet like that, it is very difficult to follow.
Indian Guest: So this will happen sometimes, that, Swāmījī, that description in the śāstra and the reality, they . . . (indistinct) . . . what sometimes asks, and what we believe from the śāstra, is a contradiction to them.
Prabhupāda: Contradictment to them, but we don't contradict. We take it as it is. And their contradiction has not proved their theory. They are talking about planets, so many things like that. . . . (indistinct) . . . so it is very difficult to believe.
Woman devotee: There was one program on television where they were presenting the theory of the scientists, and it was showing how the theories that they have on outer space every ten or twelve years are changing completely. And the whole program was a scientific program. So this is what you believe . . .
Prabhupāda: Therefore they are nonsense.
Woman devotee: They all contradicted each other, every one.
Prabhupāda: Just see. Therefore how can we teach? If it changes, you cannot teach them. Then what is the value of their knowledge?
Indian Guest: Oh, yes. It is changing all the time. They say that sun is rotating because . . . (indistinct) . . . all the time.
Prabhupāda: That is a fact.
Indian Guest: That's a fact. Is it in śāstra, Swāmī?
Prabhupāda: Everything is clear, will become clear.
Indian Guest: Is it that śāstra somewhere?
Prabhupāda: Because everything comes as a seed, then it becomes developed. That is the way of material things.
Hanumān: So this planet also, Prabhupāda?
Hanumān: It came out of a seed, and then it grows with all the . . . oh.
Indian Guest: . . . (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Hmm. Yes. Eight million.
Hanumān: And this evolution process, is it different living entity among the 8,400,000 species who came, and gradually, until men came? Or man was always here?
Prabhupāda: Man was always here.
Hanumān: Man was always on this planet.
Prabhupāda: May not be in this planet, but there was always. Because just like in New Zealand, there was no men . . . (indistinct) . . . the Europeans came later on. So it was not so full of life, but there was a class of men. All others, animals, were there, trees were there.
Indian Guest: But so many . . . (indistinct) . . . have a high temperature of fifty million centigrade, and it does not remain in solid or liquid form. It becomes a gas, a vapor, completely. Now how . . .?
Prabhupāda: Therefore gaseous body.
Indian Guest: Gaseous body. That is what I mean; there must be some gaseous body.
Hanumān: And the scientists, they also say that in twenty-five years from now, whatever they contrive to do they will not be able to feed all the people of this planet. They can try to . . .
Prabhupāda: At the end of it, everything has changed; therefore they can speak.
Hanumān: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: So they have got this loophole. They can speak any nonsense. They will adjust, "Oh, it has changed." That's all.
Woman devotee: One time they believed that the world was flat. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: And the man was hanged who said it is round. That was their perfect knowledge. So we have to believe such perfect knowledge. When they say it has changed . . . their position. We cannot accept such knowledge. It changes every twenty-five years. (break) But we see . . . (break)
Indian Guest: . . . moon does not have its own light. It is a reflection of sunlight.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is . . . and in the Bhagavad-gītā it states, nakṣatrāṇām ahaṁśaśī (BG 10.21).
Hanumān: Hmm, yes.
Prabhupāda: So this moon planet is one of the stars, illuminated . . . (indistinct) . . . we are getting moonlight at night, but if the earth is also reflecting like that, what is the use of moonlight?
Indian Guest: But earth is reflected on moonlight. But one of the reason is that the sky is pure dark region, but if any objects come in the sky, and if moonlight falls on that object, then you can see the object, and that is due to the reflection of light that we get from that object. You see, what happens, if moonlight does not fall on the sun, then you wouldn't be able to see the sun at all. If sunlight doesn't fall on the sun, then we would not be able to see sun at all. Similarly, if moonlight or sunlight does not fall on the earth, then they would not be able to see earth from the sun . . . earth from the moon. (break)
Prabhupāda: We have to leave all this material world.
Indian Guest: This is right.
Prabhupāda: We are not going to take birth again in this material world, either in the moon planet or sun planet, or this planet, or that, within this universe. Not only this universe—there are millions of universes. Nowhere we're going to come. We are not interested. (laughs)
Indian Guest: No. No. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: You see?
- tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma
- naiti mām eti so 'rjuna
- (BG 4.9)
So we're going to the spiritual world to have our eternal, blissful knowledge and life. That is our program. So what we will do with this teeny information of moon planet, this planet, that planet? We have got already some information, we are satisfied. That is all. But we're not going there. We are not interested. Why shall we go there?
Indian Guest: No.
Śyāmasundara: Are you talking about the three astronauts on their way there now? Yes.
Hanumān: We don't want any petrol. We don't want to give our lives for some petrol.
Prabhupāda: Why shall I find out petrol, when my petrol will be finished and I'll have to take a body like a dog or a cat? (laughter) They have no such knowledge.
Hanumān: No, they don't.
Prabhupāda: So finding out the petrol . . . when his personal petrol will be finished, he will have to accept the body of a dog. That's all. What he is going to do? First of all try to fill up your own personal petrol. Their personal petrol, it is sure to finish. That they don't care. So after finishing the personal petrol, if he is going to accept the body of a dog, then what is the use of finding petrol in moon planet?
What is the answer for this, that how they are going to stop the petrol, which is going to finish after ten years or fifteen years? Where is the provision? Where is the atomic energy or petrol to keep yourself, to find out petrol in the moon planet? Where is that problem solved? By the time you find out petrol in moon planet, your petrol will be finished. (laughter) Then what you will do? Just see? Foolish attempt.
Śyāmasundara: There is no possibility of petrol on the moon.
Śyāmasundara: Moon planet there cannot be petrol.
Prabhupāda: Unless, suppose they're making research, find out petrol on the moon planet. But say it takes forty to fifty years: by that time your personal petrol will be finished. You cannot move; you cannot stop all nonsense. Then what you will do?
So long you have got petrol, you are talking all nonsense as scientist. But when this petrol will be finished, you will no longer be able to talk even, what to speak of finding out petrol in moon planet. Where is that problem is solved? They are not very much interested in this subject matter. Eh?
After all, your petrol is limited. Suppose you can live fifty or sixty years—upmost hundred years. But the scientist, when his petrol is finished, he is kicked out on the street, many, many scientist. So why do they not find out petrol for himself, so that he may continue the research work? So why they're lacking this knowledge? What do you say? (break)
Hanumān: (indistinct) . . . they have a . . . they have a capsule where they put people who die from a sickness, and they take all the blood out, and they put some chemical, and they say that maybe in fifty or twenty or one hundred years from now, when they will have find the medicine, they will wake them up.
Prabhupāda: That is in future. That is in future.
Prabhupāda: So they're trying to keep the person.
Hanumān: They are trying to keep the body conserved in a machine for the time being. They pay one million dollars to be put in that machine, and the machine all day long takes all this chemical out and then of their body. So maybe in fifty years they will be able to wake them up to cure the disease that killed them.
Śyāmasundara: They are frozen, too, aren’t they?
Hanumān: Frozen. They are frozen. They call it frozen.
Śyāmasundara: Freeze their bodies.
Hanumān: And great scientists, great doctors, they do that. They pay one million dollars to go in that machine in the hope that one day they will be able to come back and enjoy.
Prabhupāda: Do you want to go? (laughter)
Hanumān: No. I want to serve your lotus feet.
- piśācī paile yena mati-cchanna haya
- māyā-grasta jīvera se daśā
Just like when a person becomes ghostly-haunted, he talks all nonsense. Similarly, one who is under the influence of māyā, he also talks. So this machine has proved successful even for a single man or children?
Indian Guest: Not yet.
Hanumān: They haven't wakened anyone up now. (laughter) They're all still in the machine. (laughter) In five years . . .
Woman devotee: So that all the people who paid the money will be dead also.
Prabhupāda: People are paying money and going to the machine?
Hanumān: One million dollars.
Indian Guest: To be in the machine.
Prabhupāda: To make experiment?
Hanumān: No, to be . . . if you want the chance to be woken up one day, you have to have one million dollars to maintain the machine for the time you know, until they find to wake you up.
Prabhupāda: So many men have gone, and they have died?
Hanumān: Yes. Yes, many men.
Prabhupāda: So after died, then what is the profit?
Śyāmasundara: No, they volunteer to be killed. They volunteer to be killed in a way, because they put them to sleep, then they withdraw all the blood from their veins and inject some chemicals, and then they freeze them, very quickly, quick-freeze. Called quick-freeze. Then 240° below zero. And in order to maintain that condition, that temperature, for a hundred, two hundred years, it will cost a lot of money.
Śyāmasundara: So they require to pay so much in advance, just to maintain that low condition.
Prabhupāda: So they are being stopped.
Śyāmasundara: Yes, stopped.
Prabhupāda: So after two hundred years they will come out?
Śyāmasundara: They are hoping that they will be able to come out alive.
Prabhupāda: At least for two hundred years he's dead.
Prabhupāda: Then what is the benefit?
Śyāmasundara: Because they have a disease. Most of them have a fatal disease that there is no cure for—like cancer or heart disease. They are hoping in two hundred years they will have a cure, so that when they wake up they will be cured of that disease and live so many more years.
Prabhupāda: How foolish. After two hundred years he will come out again on this hope, he is staying one weekend—and dies. And the government is allowing this business?
Hanumān: Science is . . . (indistinct) . . . very serious. (laughter) (end)