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720415 - Lecture BG 07.01 - Auckland

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

720415BG-AUCKLAND - April 15, 1972 - 52:58 Minutes

(kīrtana) (break)


mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha
yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ
asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ
yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu
(BG 7.1)

Ladies and Gentlemen, I beg to thank you for giving us the opportunity to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness in this meeting. So this is the essence of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, this verse spoken by Kṛṣṇa Himself. Bhagavad-gītā is spoken by Kṛṣṇa Himself, and we are preaching kṛṣṇa-kathā, the words, the message of Kṛṣṇa, as it is, without any wrong interpretation.

Our beloved student Śrīmān Hanumān Gosvāmī has already given some introduction about our movement. Lord Caitanya, five hundred years ago, ordered it. Lord Caitanya is accepted as Kṛṣṇa Himself in the form of a devotee. Kṛṣṇa, when He was personally present, He stressed that He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). I understand that you are reading in this hall Bhagavad-gītā regularly. You know all these verses. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat asti kiñcit. Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ: "beyond Me." Just like if I say, "Beyond me, this person," similarly, Kṛṣṇa says: mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat.

So your prayer, nirākāra, or gagana-sadṛśa, that is one feature of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is person. The nirākāra, Brahman feature, is His effulgence of the body. That is expressed in the Bhagavad-gītā, brahmaṇaḥ ahaṁ pratiṣṭhā. The Absolute Truth is realized in three angles of vision according to the capacity of the devotee. Vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam (SB 1.2.11). Tattva-vit. Tattva-vit means one who has realized the Supreme Truth. He is called tattva-vit. Tattva means Supreme Truth, and vit means one who knows.

So vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvam. Those who know what is Absolute Truth, they say that is the Absolute Truth which is advaya-jñāna. Advaya-jñāna means without any duality. Just like here in this material world it is called dual world, duality. Everything cannot be understood absolutely. If I say . . . it is a, rather in ordinary language, relative world. Here everything is relative. Just like if I say: "father," "father" has no meaning if there is no son. Duality. If I say: "good," so unless I have got idea of bad, I cannot understand good. If I say "light," unless I have got conception of darkness, I cannot understand light.

So here everything is duality, relative knowledge, relative world, but in the absolute world everything is one, spirit. Here . . . because here we have got experience two energies, spiritual energy and material energy, working. The material energies are the physical elements, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ (BG 7.4): earth, water, fire, air, sky and, in subtle form, mind, intelligence, ego. They are all material. Mind is also material, intelligence is also material, but they are subtle forms. And spiritual existence is the living entity, as we are. These things are very nicely explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām. The material, physical elements, they are inferior quality of . . . inferior quality, energy, of Kṛṣṇa. But the superior quality of energy we are, living entities. Jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat (BG 7.5).

Therefore here in this material world there are two energies working. In the spiritual world there is only spiritual energy working. But in the material world, two energies are working: material and spiritual. Material energy is dependent on spiritual energy. Spiritual energy is prominent everywhere, in this material world and the spiritual world. Here also, the matter is developing upon spirit, not that spirit is manifesting under certain conditional stage of matter. That is a wrong theory.

For example, the small spiritual spark, the living entity, very small, we cannot even imagine with our material brain. It is one ten-thousandth part of a point. We, in the material world, we cannot measure the length and breadth of point. Therefore those who are mathematicians, they say: "Point has no length, no breadth." But actually that is not a fact. You have no eyes to see the length and breadth of the point. You are so blunt, your senses are so limited, imperfect, that you cannot imagine that a point can have length and breadth. But we get information from Vedic literature, not only the point, but one ten-thousandth part of the point is measured. Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatadhā kalpitasya ca, jīvo bhāgaḥ sa vijñeyaḥ (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 5.9).

Because we have no imagination, we have no instrument, neither we have sufficient knowledge what is the length and breadth of the form of the living entity. Therefore Vedic literature gives you an idea that you just try to imagine one ten-thousandth part of the point, and that is the measurement.

śatadhā kalpitasya ca
jīvo bhāgaḥ sa vijñeyaḥ
sa ānantyāya kalpate
(Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 9)

So living entities, spiritual spark, that measurement is given there. Whenever there is measurement, there is form. It is not . . . but because we cannot see the form, we say nirākāra. It is our incompetency. Just like I cannot see beyond this wall. My seeing power is limited. Therefore I see there is nothing beyond this wall; there is nothing beyond this room. That's not fact. There is everything. I can see the sun, which is fourteen hundred thousand times bigger than this planet, but my eyes are seeing, daily, just like a disc. So don't believe your senses. Your senses are imperfect. Whatever knowledge you get by experimental knowledge, experimental method, that is the modern ways of understanding. But these things cannot be experimented.

Therefore we have to take the knowledge from the Vedas.

tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet
samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham
(MU 1.2.12)

Tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). These are Vedic mantras. We have to understand the transcendental science through Vedic knowledge. By our imperfect knowledge if we try to understand the Absolute Truth, naturally we shall find Him, we can imagine. Just like gagana-sadṛśa.

So God is great, but we have no knowledge how He is great. We can simply think of gagana, the sky. That is the greatest. That is our . . . but we do not know that millions of skies are within the belly of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. There our estimation, gagana-sadṛśa, is imperfect. How He can be gagana-sadṛśa? Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ (Bs. 5.48). Jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ. Jagad-aṇḍa means universe, and the gagana is within the universe. Gagana, we cannot see beyond this gagana, but beyond this gagana there is another gagana. In the Bhagavad-gītā . . . you are reading Bhagavad-gītā. You must know it. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvaḥ anyaḥ (BG 8.20): "There is another sky, spiritual sky." Sanātana. Paras tasmāt tu anyaḥ 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ, sarveṣu naśyatsu na vinaśyati. This gagana will be annihilated at the time of destruction, but that does not annihilate.

So the idea of gagana is not perfect idea of the Supreme. Gagana-sadṛśa, that is limited within the purview of our knowledge because we cannot think that anything can be greater than this big sky. No, He is mahato mahīyān, bigger than the biggest, aṇor aṇīyān, smaller than the smallest. Just like we can imagine atom, the smallest. But atom we can see by some way or other, atom. Six atoms, trasareṇu. Six atoms, when it is combined, we can see through the windows with the sunshine so many trasareṇu. Those small particles which we see through the window with sunshine, they are combination of six atom. They are not original atom. But the atomic constitution of the living entity is a thousand times smaller than the atom.

Therefore, aṇor aṇīyān mahato mahīyān: "He is greater than the greatest and smaller than the smallest." The smaller than the smallest, we are. We are also part and parcel. Just like the sun and the sunshine. The sunshine is combination of small atomic molecular parts, shining parts. They are also different. They are not combined together. That is scientific. Similarly, we are also sparks of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7). You are reading Bhagavad-gītā. You know. That aṁśa, that is described already—one ten-thousandth part of the point. Mamaivāṁśo jīva bhūtaḥ. In another place, jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat (BG 7.5). This material world is important because it is being manipulated by that small spiritual spark, jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho.

So we are small particles, part and parcel of the Supreme, and they are distributed all over His creation, brahma-jyotir. That is nirākāra. But this brahma-jyotir is not the ultimate truth. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). The first realization . . . just like light in the morning. When you see light, you see the light of the sun. But that is not very important thing, sunlight. Of course, we have no other means to understand beyond the sunlight, but we take it sunlight is very important. Actually very important, because through sunlight the whole universe is maintained. It is sunlight. As soon as there is shortage of sunlight, the place becomes immediately condemned. As soon as there is sunlight, we feel pleasure, "Oh, today is very sunny day, nice."

So sunlight is always there, but it is being covered. The sunlight is not covered, sun is not covered, but our eyes are covered. Suppose there is cloud. A cloud may expand, say, a hundred miles. But do you think the sunlight is a hundred miles? You cannot estimate—millions and millions of miles. So what hundred miles cloud can cover the sun? The hundred miles, “One cloud can cover my eyes”. And we say: "Today sun is covered by the cloud." That is our ignorance.

Similarly, the Supreme Brahman, who is spreading the effulgence of light, He cannot be covered. We are covered. We, the small particles, we are covered. Mohita. Tribhir guṇamayair bhāvair mohitam. Mām eva nābhijānāti (BG 7.13). In the Bhagavad-gītā this is. They are bewildered by this external energy. Their eyes have been covered. Their eyes . . . our, because we are very small, so our senses, the capacity of the senses, they are also limited. Although we have got all the qualities, because fire and a spark of fire qualitatively the same, but qualitatively (quantitatively) different. Similarly, we are Brahman, and Kṛṣṇa is Para-brahman, Supreme Brahman. Nityo nityānām, the chief of the all eternals. Cetanaś cetanānām. He is the supreme living entity of all living entities. He is also living entity. So if I am a living entity, I have got a form, so why the supreme living entity will not have a form?

This is poor fund of knowledge. He is not nirākāra. But we cannot estimate His ākāra. That is nirākāra. Nirākāra means to estimate. We cannot estimate how big He is. That means nirā . . . nirākāra does not mean formless. When there is in the śāstra nirākāra, this word is used, nirākāra means He has no prakṛta-ākāra, material form. That is nirākāra, not that He has no form. That is poor fund of knowledge. He is sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha (Bs. 5.1). Therefore Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11): "My original form is like human being." And the Bible also it is said, "Man is made after the form of the God."

So God has a form just like a human being, two hands, two legs, and He Himself comes to show Him. That is Kṛṣṇa. He is not nirākāra. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). Vigraha. Vigraha means form. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ. Avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannaṁ manyante mām abuddhayaḥ (BG 7.24). That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. You know. Avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannam: "The original is impersonal Brahman. Now He has taken form." This conclusion, who makes? Avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannaṁ manyante mām abuddhayaḥ: "Those who are less intelligent, whose intelligence is very poor, they consider that ultimately I am nirākāra. I have taken the form." Sākāra-nirākāra.

No. Kṛṣṇa says, sambhavāmy ātma-māyayā (BG 4.6): "I come out of My good will." Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata, tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham (BG 4.7): "At that time I appear." Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9). We have to understand Him in truth, not by imagination, not by malinterpretation, but by fact. The fact is being explained by Kṛṣṇa Himself. Why we should go to understand Kṛṣṇa by the commentary of some less intelligent, some poor fund of knowledge? Why we should?

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means we are presenting the Bhagavad-gītā as it is. That's all. We have no difficulty. We have no difficulty because Kṛṣṇa is accepted as authority, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, by all the ācāryas; not only formerly, like Vyāsadeva, Nārada, Asita, Devala, many, many big, big stalwart . . . Vyāsadeva everyone knows. Vyāsadeva is the original writer of Vedic knowledge, Vedavyāsa. He accepts Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. His disciple Nārada accepts, the Supreme Personality of . . . Vyāsadeva's guru, Nārada. Nārada's guru, Brahmā, he accepts, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi.

So Govinda is person. This impersonal Brahman, nirākāra, that is His personal effulgence, bodily effulgence. Just like the sun. You can understand. The sun planet is localized, and within the sun planet, there is sun-god. His name is also mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā, Vivasvān.

imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ
proktavān aham avyayam
vivasvān manave prāha
manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt
(BG 4.1)
evaṁ paramparā-prāptam
imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ
(BG 4.2)

So this is the process of studying Bhagavad-gītā.

So if you study Bhagavad-gītā and conclude that the Absolute Truth is nirākāra, I don't think you are making very much progress. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā (BG 4.34). You try to understand this science by praṇipāta, praṇipātena, by surrendering, not by deserving yourself, that "I am very learned scholar. Why shall I surrender?" No. That is the first thing wanted. If you want to understand Bhagavad-gītā, then you must take the direction from the Bhagavad-gītā.

The first direction is, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2): "All the rājarṣis, they understood Bhagavad-gītā by the paramparā system." That paramparā system, Kṛṣṇa also says, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1): "I spoke first of all this system of yoga system in the . . . mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā." That is bhakti-yoga. What is that yoga system? Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). This is the ultimate instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ (BG 15.15). "All the Vedas, they are teaching only to understand Me, Kṛṣṇa."

So if we do not understand Kṛṣṇa as He is, although He is explaining, all the ācāryas are explaining . . . in our country . . . you come from India. In our country there are big, five ācāryas who is practically controlling the Hindu society or the Vedic society: Śaṅkarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So we have to follow the footprints, the footsteps of the ācāryas. That is mentioned in the . . . Ācāryopāsanam. If you want to advance in knowledge, then you must worship the ācāryas. Otherwise, what knowledge you will get? You cannot get, manufacturing knowledge or getting knowledge from somebody who has manufactured knowledge. The knowledge must be received by paramparā, by paramparā, as Kṛṣṇa says.

Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam (BG 4.2), sa kāleneha yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa. He again spoke the science of Bhagavad-gītā to Arjuna because the paramparā was broken. Sa kāleneha naṣṭaḥ. Otherwise there was no need of speaking Bhagavad-gītā to Arjuna. And why He selected Arjuna to understand Bhagavad-gītā? That is also explained. One may say that Arjuna was a gṛhastha, householder, and a politician and a soldier. Why Bhagavad-gītā was instructed to him? That is natural. He was not a vedāntī. He was not a brahmin. He was not a sannyāsī.

Why he was selected to understand Bhagavad-gītā? This should be . . . there should be inquiry. Generally, you understand that a vedāntī, a sannyāsī, a brahmin may know about spiritual knowledge, about God. No, that is not the fact. The fact is, as Kṛṣṇa says: bhakto 'si priyo 'si me rahasyaṁ hy etad uttamam (BG 4.3): "Because you are My devotee, because you are My dear friend, you can understand the mystery of Bhagavad-gītā."

So the ordinary man who is neither Kṛṣṇa conscious nor a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he cannot explain Bhagavad-gītā. Whatever they are explaining, they are simply spoiling their time and others' also, big, big scholars—I do not wish to discuss—simply misled. Now this Movement has begun to present Bhagavad-gītā as it is, and people are taking. People are accepting. So you Indians who are present here, that is my request, that you can do tremendous service on behalf of your country. As Caitanya Mahāprabhu says:

bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra
janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra
(CC Adi 9.41)

So in this land, New Zealand, fortunately you are there. You try to understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is and preach it. People will take. People will appreciate your contribution. As our Gosvāmījī said that . . . actually I have experienced. Whenever I go . . . when I was in Columbus, I met one gentleman on the street. So as soon as he understood that I am from India, "Oh, India is very poverty-stricken." Yes. This is our advertisement. And actually, in comparison to Western countries, we are poverty-stricken. That's all right. But still we have gift. We have to give something which is so brilliant. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

So my request is that we are going to start a Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa temple here. Just cooperate with us. These foreigners are doing your business. It was your business to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness all over the world, but you are sleeping. But the Americans, Canadians, Europeans, I am training them. So you take it very seriously. You try to understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Try to understand Kṛṣṇa and spread it. That is my request.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (devotees offer obeisances) (break)

Indian guest (1): . . . you must be a very enlightened man to be able to carry on the work that you are doing, and the vast amount of work that you have done. I would like to ask just one question, if you could enlighten me on that. I would like to hear your explanation on how do you . . . have seen the form of God, if you have had any enlightenment on this. In what form you have . . .

Prabhupāda: Here is a picture of Kṛṣṇa. You don't believe? You have not seen picture of Kṛṣṇa?

Indian guest (1): Yes, I have.

Prabhupāda: Then why do you say there is no form of Kṛṣṇa? When you see a photograph of a person, how do you know that he has no form?

Indian guest (1): I do not understand that.

Prabhupāda: If you see the photograph of your father, how do you say that is he impersonal, he has no form? How do you conclude? First of all answer me. I have seen form of Kṛṣṇa. You have seen also form of Kṛṣṇa. There are hundreds and thousands of temples in India. Do you think they are all fools?

And they were established by big ācāryas, by Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Lord Caitanya. There is Jagannātha temple. Jagannātha temple, every day hundreds and thousands of people are going to see. In Vṛndāvana there are five thousand temples, Kṛṣṇa. Five thousand, ten thousand people are going. There are . . . you know in India there are so many pilgrimages. So do you think all these temples established by our predecessor, they are all fools?

Indian guest (1): So therefore you conclude that when you become enlightened, you will see the God in form of human nature?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is after. In the beginning you have to accept this form, but when you make advance, then you will see always.

santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti
yaṁ śyāmasundaram acintya-guṇa-svarūpaṁ
govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi
(Bs. 5.38)

When you . . . first of all you begin, how to try to learn how to love God. And when you are actually on the platform of love, prema, premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti, you will see God always in His form.

He becomes revealed. You haven't got to try to see, but He will reveal. Svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ (Brs. 1.2.234). When you engage your tongue . . . that beginning is tongue. Jihvādau sevonmukhe. If you begin your service . . . God cannot be understood by our challenging mood.

Therefore Kṛṣṇa says: "First of all surrender. Then try to understand." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66). When you surrender, and by that surrendering process, when you are free from the resultant action of sinful activities, then you can appreciate God. Not that God is my order-supplier, "Please come. I will see You." No. Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya. You are reading Bhagavad-gītā. You know all these things.

yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ
janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām
te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā
bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ
(BG 7.28)

These things are there in the Bhagavad-gītā. One who is completely free from the resultant action of sinful activities, they can be engaged fully in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

So these students are being trained how to become free from sinful activities. They are forbidden not to have illicit sex. These are four pillars of sinful activity: illicit sex life, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. Yatra pāpaś catur-vidhā. These are exactly to the injunction of the Vedas. So if we purify ourself . . . in the Bhagavad-gītā, Arjuna appreciates Kṛṣṇa, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). How you can approach the pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān without being pavitra?

So there is a process to appreciate whether Kṛṣṇa, or God, has form. Unless we adopt the form, superficially it is not possible. I see otherwise there are . . . why so many process of bhajana-sādhana if it is so cheap that we can immediately understand what is God? No. And the Veda says, tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). That was our system. First of all, they used to become brahmacārī, to become most obedient servant of the spiritual master before becoming gṛhastha. Celibacy, brahmacārī, then gṛhastha. So these things are all lost now. Therefore the śāstra says:

harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam
kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā
(CC Adi 17.21)

You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra with your tongue. Take prasādam of Kṛṣṇa. You will gradually develop your Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and you will understand what is God. That is the process.

Hanumān: Any other questions?

Indian guest (2): Swāmījī, we live in the Western world, and some are born here, although the youth, and from their date of birth they are all born in India. Perhaps we know very little about Gītā, but this Movement have take us convert people or to convince people, and how do you give these people stages?

Because when person are ignorant, they need primarily some teaching and then, just like in the school, they go step by step. Well, in this Movement, how can you or what can you expect, or what would you like to give as an enlightenment for an ordinary people? Suppose myself, I am just an ordinary person, and I don't understand anything. Well, what I'd like to know, that I think if you just give those steps would be far better for the audience to just follow that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That I have already explained, that we are training people in different parts of the world by opening centers. So you come and take the advantage of this center and learn how to do it. This center is open for this purpose, that people may take advantage how to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like you go to school and you learn how to read and write, and then you pass M.A. examination; similarly, if you think that you have forgotten, you have no knowledge, please come, take the process.

And just like these people, they were not born in India. They are not Hindus. They are not Vaiṣṇavas. Their forefathers never heard what is Kṛṣṇa, neither they heard. How they are taking? It is the process. That process we are giving to everyone, without any discrimination. We have got students from all communities: Hindus, Muslim, Christian, Parsis and Africans. The process is so perfect. If you take the process, you will also understand. So for this teaching this process, we are opening center here. You all Indians, your chance is first. So why don't you cooperate and learn? It is open to everyone. It is not a secret thing. So I invite you on Tuesday.

(aside) At what time we are going to . . .?

Bali-mardana: Seven-thirty.

Prabhupāda: Seven-thirty, evening. Please come. The temple will be open and you come, you try to understand. You invite us occasionally in this big place. We have no big place now. We have got very small place. But we shall be very glad to speak about Kṛṣṇa consciousness Movement.

So everything is . . . that I was going to explain. There was no time.

mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha
yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ
asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ
yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu
(BG 7.1)

Kṛṣṇa is teaching, mayy āsakta: "Just try to increase your attachment for Me." There is a process, how to increase attachment. Mayy āsakta. So attachment process. Attachment process is:

ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā
tato 'nartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt tato niṣṭhā tataḥ rucis
athāsaktis tato bhāvas . . .
sādhakānām ayaṁ premṇaḥ prādurbhāve bhavet kramaḥ
(CC Madhya 23.14-15)

There is a process. If you are actually serious, then come to the process, ādau śraddhā. Just like you are hearing me, kindly. It is called śraddhā. You have got little śraddhā. Next stage is sādhu-saṅga (CC Madhya 22.83). Those who are actually practicing Kṛṣṇa consciousness, just associate with them. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā (CC Madhya 23.14-15). Then, if you try to follow how they are . . . just like they are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma . . . if you follow the bhajana-kriyā, then anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Anartha, unwanted things.

Just like these four things of sinful activities—illicit sex and intoxication, gambling and meat-eating—these are anartha. Anartha means it is not necessary at all. It is not that without meat-eating, we can(not) live. Thousands and thousands in India, eighty percent, they are strictly vegetarian. That does not mean they are dying. Here also, in Western countries, I have got thousands and thousands of disciples. They have given up all these things. That does not mean that they have become dead. No. It is anartha, unwanted.

So if you take to bhajana-kriyā, then automatically this anartha also will disappear. Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. That means you become purified. Tato niṣṭhā. Then you will have firm conviction. Tato niṣṭhā tato ruciḥ. Then taste, taste will increase. Athāsaktiḥ. Then āsakti. That is Kṛṣṇa speaking in the Seventh Chapter, mayy āsakta-manāḥ. We have to increase our attachment for Kṛṣṇa. And this is the process. So there is process. If you actually serious, you can take the process, and you will be successful.

Indian guest (3): One more question, Swāmījī. When a person gradually go along the path and have, in the process, have some achievements, don't you agree that chanting is not the only attachment, or rather to know Kṛṣṇa? He can . . .

Prabhupāda: There may be other methods. I can understand. But the śāstra says: "No other method will be successful." Kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā (CC Adi 17.21). Karma, jñāna, yoga. So therefore three times stressed, nāsty eva. "By karma you will not be successful." Time is different. Just like you go to a drug shop, there are hundreds and thousands of medicines. They are all medicine, but the medicine which is prescribed by the physician for you, that is your medicine. So in this age this is the medicine. There may be other methods, they are all bona fide methods, but they will not be successful. This method will be successful. You have to take in that light.

Indian guest (4): Do you give any importance of coming in, sighting of the soul in the front, and can a person not act as a human being, but . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Well, you are in my front. You are a soul. What is the difficulty? Everyone, you are all souls. You are in my front. Simply you are dressed only. Suppose you come in a dress. You are my friend. Do I see your dress or you? Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ. Vidyā-vinaya-sampanne (BG 5.18). You are reading Bhagavad-gītā. You know all these things. When you are learned, you won't see the dress. You will see the soul.

Indian guest (3): My real object . . . still, I want to . . . the chanting would be the primary stage, but it is not the stage that it will stay on all the time for a person who is really seeing the truth.

Prabhupāda: No. If you take this process, you will come to the perfectional stage very easily.

Indian guest (3): But do you agree or not?

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Indian guest (3): That chanting is not the stage you have to preserve all the time or practice all the time?

Śyāmasundara: That as you become as more advanced in spiritual life, your chanting drops away.

Prabhupāda: No. no, chanting is eternal. After you become perfect, you will also chant more loudly.

Indian guest (5): I have one question. Swāmījī, you accept Kṛṣṇa as the supreme glory . . .

Prabhupāda: I do not accept, the whole Vedas accept.

Indian guest (6): But in our Hindu religions, there are gods and goddesses. There are so many.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is for material purpose. Those who are after material benefits, they can worship different demigods. That is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā. That is the point. You are reading Bhagavad-gītā. You should note all these things. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānā yajante anya-devatāḥ (BG 7.20). Those who are bewildered or lost of intelligence, they go to worship other demigods.

Indian guest (5): Basically we accept . . .

Prabhupāda: So those who are interested in spiritual salvation, they need not worship other demigods. But those who are interested for material profit, they can worship demigods. Yajante anya-devatāḥ. Karmaṇā . . . there is a verse. Just to have immediate result of material profit, the Vedas recommend, "All right, you worship this demigod, that demigod." So our concern is we don't want any material profit; we want Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we do not require to worship demigods.

Indian guest (7): But why not Viṣṇu?

Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu and Kṛṣṇa the same. Viṣṇu and Kṛṣṇa the same. Kṛṣṇa is viṣṇu-tattva.

Indian guest (7): Rāma and . . .

Prabhupāda: Rāma also. We worship Rāma also. Rāma, viṣṇu-tattva.

Indian guest (7): Because they are the incarnation of the Viṣṇu. The person Himself is the reincarnation of the Viṣṇu.

Prabhupāda: So whatever is . . . that is your conclusion. But Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). So if we have to believe Bhagavad-gītā, then Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme. That's all.

Now have kīrtana. (end)