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710807 - Conversation - London

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

710807R1-LONDON - August 07, 1971 - 93:50 Minutes

Mr. Arnold: . . . takes the name of the nearest town.

Prabhupāda: So where is that town, eh?

Mr. Arnold: Near the island of Zetland.

Devotees: In the Orkneys.

Prabhupāda: Zetland.

Devotees: In the Orkneys.

Prabhupāda: But, he was, he was known as Lord Ronaldsay when he was Governor, in Bengal. And later on, when he was seen one of, by one of my Godbrother, he came about thirty years ago, 1935, at that time he was known as Marquis of Zetland. So, the same person, perhaps he was known in India as Lord Zetland, because India, the governors and the viceroys, they're mostly Lords. They are not accustomed to know marquis or this.

Mr. Arnold: Marquis is a, is a higher title.

Prabhupāda: (aside) Keep it there, I shall . . . keep it.

So this Lord Ronaldsay, he was invited by our principal, because he also happened to be Scotsman. So I was at that time a boy. So he's elderly. At least at that time he was our father's age. He's still alive? No.

Mr. Arnold: The older Lord Zetland, m'lord?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Arnold: No, I don't think so. No. I think he died, and consequently Lord Ronaldsay, and his son, take on the title of Marquis of Zetland.

Prabhupāda: He immediately inquired, "How many you have philosophical students?" So our principal replied that this is I.A., I.A. class. So I.A. means Intermediate Art.

Devotee: There's a phone call for Śyāmasundara.

Śyāmasundara: Oh, it's Mr. Ambuja.

Prabhupāda: So you can call him to come here. We can talk. So our principal said that this is I.A. class; they haven't got philosophy, but most of them have got logic, preliminary philosophy. So he was interested also. "All right, how many you have taken, logic?" So I was also student (laughing) of logic. In this way we were introduced. But I know, he was very nice gentleman, and fond of Indian philosophy and culture. He studied them. And the Gandhi, during Gandhi's movement, there was a great leader in Calcutta, Sealdah, he was a big lawyer.

So government ordered that he should be arrested. So before arresting, Lord Ronaldsay called him at his house, that "It will be very much painful for me to arrest you. If you kindly give up this movement." So he said, "No, you can arrest me. I cannot give up." So later on he was arrested. But before arresting, he called him at his (laughs) . . .

A very nice gentleman, but government ordered, what can he do? Another governor, he was Indian. He was the first Indian governor, Lord Sinha. So when he was requested to arrest Gandhi, he immediately resigned: "So you are asking me to arrest? Why not ask some English governor to arrest him?" So he resigned.

Mr. Arnold: I think there's still two Indians . . .

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Mr. Arnold: . . . who sit in the House of Lords.

Prabhupāda: Hm? Indians?

Dhanañjaya: Two Indians, MPs.

Mr. Arnold: No, they're titled Lords; they're peers. They sit in the House of Lords.

Prabhupāda: Maybe son of Lord Sinha.

Mr. Arnold: Maybe. I wouldn't know.

Prabhupāda: Because this is hereditary title.

Mr. Arnold: Yes, m'lord.

Prabhupāda: They deposit some money to the government.

Dhanañjaya: Someone was saying that the head of the Liberal . . .

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Dhanañjaya: The head of the Liberal department was an Indian.

Prabhupāda: He may be domiciled here. There are many Indians domiciled.

Dhanañjaya: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Because, I don't think anyone with the title "Lord" in India, they can become member of the Parliament. Because . . . because India is not now . . . but he may be Commonwealth. But is it, is there any rule that Commonwealth member can become Parliament member?

Mr. Arnold: Oh, yes, there's various people sit in the House of Lords, m'lord, who are not British at all. We've got Australians, New Zealanders.

Prabhupāda: But Australia is in, now in, still in touch with England. The Australians, in the stand, the Queen's picture is there.

Mr. Arnold: Yes, oh, yes, but even so, the, their . . .

Prabhupāda: Canadian, they're in touch.

Mr. Arnold: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: But India, now, at the present moment, it is simply in name Commonwealth member. Actually, in the matters of governing, there is no . . .

Mr. Arnold: No, but these people have received their titles for service to the British Empire in the past.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Arnold: And of course it's a hereditary title.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Mr. Arnold: So naturally it hands down from father to son.

Prabhupāda: Then how you can be elected?

Mr. Arnold: You can't be elected to this house. It's quite impossible.

Śyāmasundara: That was Mrs. Ambuja, and she said he'll be back about eight o'clock, and either they'll come directly over here, or they'll call first.

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Śyāmasundara: 6:30 now.

Prabhupāda: So we can talk at that time.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah, okay. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . Saha. You know him?

Mr. Arnold: I prefer not to speak, m'lord.

Prabhupāda: Heh?

Mr. Arnold: I prefer not to speak, m'lord.

Śyāmasundara: I don't think he trusts him.

Prabhupāda: Oh, it's not . . .?

Śyāmasundara: That was pure gold, practically. His, that jewelry is practically pure gold.

Prabhupāda: He tested it?

Śyāmasundara: They had it tested, yeah.

Mr. Arnold: He's off.

Śyāmasundara: I don't think he trusts him.

Mr. Arnold: He says one thing, and then a few days after he says something else which completely refutes what he said in the first place.

Śyāmasundara: That's the problem. We have to really work with trustworthy people.

Prabhupāda: No, that kind of man cannot help us.

Śyāmasundara: No, we have to work with very trustworthy men, because it's too big, it's too important.

Dhanañjaya: I think he's out for prestige.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Dhanañjaya: He's out for prestige.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Arnold: Known in this country, m'lord, as a social climber.

Śyāmasundara: Social climber.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Hmm. So decide like that, then when he comes, I shall talk with him.

Śyāmasundara: Ok. I think that . . .

Prabhupāda: We try for that.

Śyāmasundara: Meanwhile, I could find out where George is. I have a few numbers I want to call to try and find him.

Prabhupāda: George, being out of . . . station . . . don't count upon him.

Śyāmasundara: No, but he'll be back soon.

Prabhupāda: So, when he comes then we'll . . . that is different.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah, and if I know when he's coming, I'll be prepared to see him.

Dhanañjaya: We're going on this Bhāgavata-saptāha. Should we still . . . should we still?

Prabhupāda: What? That Bhāgavata-saptāha, that is attractive to the Indians, but the Indians have no cooperative feeling. Then what is the use?

Śyāmasundara: Let us this week find out from different Indian men if they're going to be willing, and next Saturday I'll know for sure.

Dhanañjaya: Yes, that's . . .

Prabhupāda: And another thing is that the Indians, they're inclined to keep their Hindu element, hodgepodge—demigods, this, that . . .

Śyāmasundara: After they've seen our Deities they'll want to install Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa only, that's right.

Dhanañjaya: Well. (laughs)

Śyāmasundara: After they've seen our temple, now they all want to install Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: That is out of sentiment.

Devotees: Yes.

Prabhupāda: They thought that "If Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa is there, people will come."

Dhanañjaya: Yes. I went, I went to visit them . . .

Prabhupāda: Here is a different atmosphere. That they cannot create.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: That is not possible.

Śyāmasundara: No.

Prabhupāda: That requires sincere devotion.

Dhanañjaya: Yeah. I went to an installation ceremony.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Dhanañjaya: I went to an . . . I was invited with some other devotees to go to an installation ceremony in a temple in the East End of London, and they were installing Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Deities there, and at the same time they were having a marriage ceremony was going on.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Dhanañjaya: A marriage ceremony was going on, along with the installation ceremony.

Prabhupāda: What is that ceremony? Merge?

Śyāmasundara: Marriage.

Prabhupāda: Marriage.

Dhanañjaya: Right.

Prabhupāda: This hodgepodge, they . . .

Dhanañjaya: Yes, and there was this, this one, they had this one, like a professional priest was there.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Dhanañjaya: And he was saying over again, oṁ bhūr bhuvaḥ svaḥ tat savitur vareṇyaṁ bhargo devasya dhīmahi, and again and again he'd be saying the first line of Gāyatrī mantra, like he was chanting japa. And he would start to sing it, and he'd sing louder, and he was cavorting with this microphone, and it was all so . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh. (chuckles) So, how it is going on so that . . .

Dhanañjaya: The same one that . . . who gave us these Deities.

Śyāmasundara: Gave us these Deities.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Dhanañjaya: So when Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa came here, they ordered more Deities from India, you see, and this was the installation ceremony for these . . .

Prabhupāda: When it was held?

Dhanañjaya: This was about two years ago.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Dhanañjaya: Two years ago.

Śyāmasundara: It was right after we left, I think.

Dhanañjaya: About two years ago.

Prabhupāda: How it is going on now?

Dhanañjaya: Oh, I don't know. I've never been back.

Śyāmasundara: They don't have much.

Devotee: It is simply sentimentality.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee: Sentimental.

Prabhupāda: That's all. Who will go there?

Śyāmasundara: We went there for a durgā-pūjā one night, too. I remember. They dance around the room.

Prabhupāda: They take it as recreation.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: There is no philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: No.

Prabhupāda: There is no seriousness. Then our is different. We are training people how to become real devotee.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is different.

Dhanañjaya: Yes. They're also, they were garlanding the Deities with beads. They were giving Kṛṣṇa japa beads, (laughs) putting on.

Prabhupāda: They're not guided.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Just like they are chanting Gāyatrī mantra loudly. That is another rascaldom.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Mr. Goyal is a self-appointed guru.

Prabhupāda: Oh! He, he wants to become a guru?

Śyāmasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Oh, then it is.

Śyāmasundara: They have ambitions, to be guru.

Dhanañjaya: And all these meetings, all these meetings I've been to, they're all saying: "We must remain Hindu. We must not forget our culture. We may be in England, but we are Hindus." Like this. "India, she is our real mother, not this England. India, she is our real mother. We must be thinking of India, and to become always thinking of Hindus."

Śyāmasundara: How to, how to get rupees out of India.

Prabhupāda: So therefore it is very difficult to get their cooperation. They're mentality is, they don't want to understand this Kṛṣṇa philosophy. They want to remain Hindu. Hindu means hodgepodge, that's all. Hindu means hodgepodge.

Dhanañjaya: And at the same time . . .

Prabhupāda: Hindu means Śaṅkara philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: Śaṅkara.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that God has no form, and you can imagine any form and worship for your material benefit. This is at the present moment. And we said that we are not Hindus. Hindu is a Muhammadan title, given.

Dhanañjaya: Muhammadan? (laughing)

Śyāmasundara: That startles you. You didn't know that?

Dhanañjaya: No! (laughing)

Prabhupāda: Hindu, there is no such word in the Vedic literature. You won't find this word in Bhāgavata, or Bhagavad-gītā. The Muhammadans outside India, they used to call the sindhus, sindhu. There is a river, Sindhu river. From Sindhu to Hindu. They cannot speak "s," they call "ha." In this way it is a hodgepodge word, but it has come that Vedic followers as "hindus," but this word is not found in any authorized scripture, no.

Our, our system, culture is varṇāśrama-dharma. That is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ, varṇa (BG 4.13). Varṇa means four sections: brahmin, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. That is real Vedic culture. That Vedic culture can be all over the world. Why in India? We are trying for that, to get the Vedic culture, which is acceptable by everyone. It is meant for everyone.

Śyāmasundara: So actually Śaṅkara introduced this five gods . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: . . . system.

Prabhupāda: Śaṅkara had no universal idea, but still the Śaṅkarites, they won't accept outside brahmin caste. They won't allow sannyāsa unless he's a caste brahmin. It is still going on. That is their strict principle. Now it is dwindling—that is a different thing. But we Vaiṣṇavas, we, according to Bhagavad-gītā, whatever one may be, if he takes shelter of Kṛṣṇa consciousness he's eligible to go back to home, back to Kṛṣṇa.

māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya
ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ
striyo vaiśyās tathāśūdrās
te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim
(BG 9.32)

Śyāmasundara: At the Hindu Centre they, the only symbol they have is an oṁ, a big oṁ sign, and at the beginning they have a prayer to the oṁ sign.

Prabhupāda: Impersonalist.

Dhanañjaya: Yes. And their ārati ceremonies are terrible.

Śyāmasundara: Their what?

Dhanañjaya: Āratis are terrible.

Prabhupāda: Terrible?

Dhanañjaya: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: Why is that?

Dhanañjaya: "Jaya, oṁ jaya jagadīśa hare."

Prabhupāda: Oh, that, cry like anything.

Dhanañjaya: Yes, and at the end they sing oṁśānti oṁśānti śānti śānti oṁ.

Prabhupāda: So, that determination, "We want to remain Hindu," that is the basic principle of their defect. We cannot get any cooperation from them.

Śyāmasundara: They're . . . those are mostly women. There's not many men at these ceremonies.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Śyāmasundara: Mostly those are women also.

Prabhupāda: Must be women, because these men, if they could not understand the philosophy, they are rascals. So now religious sentiment expressed by these women, that's all. That is, that is not our purpose. We want to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness throughout the whole world. If we say that, "We are Hindus," we may be Hindus, but it is for everyone.

Śyāmasundara: There's one or two Hindu leaders that are with us.

Prabhupāda: Therefore, in India, there are many enemies for me, because I am making brahmins. They do not like that.

Śyāmasundara: Oh, then it won't be their property anymore . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: . . . if it goes out of India.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore, this, I think this Devānanda was bright. There are so many things, you see, I don't want to discuss publicly. So I am becoming popular on my own strength. Nobody is helping me.

Śyāmasundara: That's a fact.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: That's a fact.

Prabhupāda: Rather you are helping me; from India I am not getting any help.

Śyāmasundara: No.

Prabhupāda: Neither by the government nor by the people.

Śyāmasundara: So many big men we went to see. Even, even our own American government is helping us more than . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: . . . the Indian government.

Dhanañjaya: Also the BBC. I think BBC is like a father. British Broadcasting Corporation.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dhanañjaya: It's very, very helpful. Very much in favor of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Śyāmasundara: BBC.

Dhanañjaya: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That's an important organization?

Dhanañjaya: Oh, yes.

Śyāmasundara: Either that or they were . . . they're spying on us.

Prabhupāda: No, any sane man, he will appreciate.

Dhanañjaya: Yes, it's a very intelligent organization.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Dhanañjaya: BBC, very intelligent.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is government is coming here.

Śyāmasundara: They acknowledged that they came to Nairobi to take films of you.

Prabhupāda: Yes?

Śyāmasundara: Yeah, they did.

Dhanañjaya: And these two radio programs yesterday. They're very important also.

Prabhupāda: So, actually we're very important. What is your impression?

Mr. Arnold: Of the, of the programs, my lord? Or . . .

Prabhupāda: No, our, this mission, Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Mr. Arnold: I think it's, it's just the thing that is needed at the moment.

Prabhupāda: Yes, actually it is so. The, what United Nations could not do, we can do that—provided people agree to our terms. These four terms: no illicit sex, no intoxication, no meat-eating, no gambling. But that is very difficult.

Mr. Arnold: Very difficult. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: We put these terms, that is thunderbolt. That is thunderbolt.

Mr. Arnold: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Most young people think, "Well I've tried it . . ."

Prabhupāda: The whole Western civilization is based on these principles, and we say break these four pillars (laughing), then come to me. That we don't get many followers. There is this condition. If that, like Maharishi, if I would have said: "Oh, no, you can do whatever you like."

Śyāmasundara: Oh, you would have millions.

Prabhupāda: "Simply pay me 35 dollars, and I give you special mantra." This bluff . . .

Mr. Arnold: Like the Roman Catholic Church will sell . . .

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Mr. Arnold: Like the Roman Catholic Church will sell . . . sell you a free pass into heaven.

Śyāmasundara: Indulgences.

Mr. Arnold: In the old, in the old days—indulgences.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Śyāmasundara: Indulgences. The Catholic Church, they, they used to sell passes into heaven, for you or your family—you pay so much, you get to go to heaven.

Prabhupāda: Just see. The Muhammadans also they do. (laughter). The Aga Khan. He was doing that. If the man dies, so Aga Khan will give a draft. You know draft?

Mr. Arnold: Yes, we know draft.

Prabhupāda: So draft will be also within the coffin. So when he goes to hell or heaven . . .

Śyāmasundara: He'll have some money.

Prabhupāda: He'll get money. Draft. (laughter) And people are paying. You know this Aga Khan's business?

Mr. Arnold: Aga Khan? Yes.

Prabhupāda: Aga Khan. He was doing this. He was a guru of a section of Muhammadans, very rich section.

Śyāmasundara: Nairobi they . . .

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Śyāmasundara: In Nairobi they were . . .

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. So . . . and all the money he was spending in racehorse. Aga Khan had special horse.

Devotee: He has become one of the richest men in the world.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: I used to ski with him in Switzerland.

Prabhupāda: And all his officers are Hindus, in Bombay. He never trusted Muhammadans (laughter). Not only that, Aga Khan, even Muhammadan emperors that . . . their all important men were Hindus. Just like Rūpa-Sanātana.

Śyāmasundara: Ah.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: They were Hindus.

Prabhupāda: Rūpa-Sanātana. Huh?

Devotee: They were Muhammadans.

Śyāmasundara: They were Hindus.

Devotee: Muhammadan government.

Śyāmasundara: They were brahmins.

Prabhupāda: No. They were brahmins, but because they accepted ministership from Nawab Hussein Shah, they were rejected from the strict brahmin community: "So you are now servant of a Muhammadan, your, you cannot call yourself a brahmin." That's a fact. So they were rejected. Their names were also changed: Dhabir Khan or Dhabir Khās, and Sākara Mallik.

And they were mixing with big, big Muhammadan chiefs and landlords and, therefore about them Śrīnīvās Ācārya has written, tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīṁ sadā tucchavat (Śrī Śrī Ṣaḍ-gosvāmy-aṣṭaka 4): "He gave up the aristocratic society as very insignificant and preferred to become a mendicant." This is the picture. So. (aside) You can sit down. They were very big ministers, Caitanya Mahāprabhu made them Gosvāmī.

They were thrown by the Hindu society, or brahmin society, rejected them that, "They have become Muhammadan." And actually, just like in our younger days, in our father's time, if one should come to England for education, he has to pass through some prāyaścitta: shaving the head, and have some big ceremony, and feed the brahmins and spend so much money—then you will be accepted in the society. Otherwise you cannot enter the society. He went to mleccha-deśa, mleccha-deśa, and he has eaten meat and he has mixed with so many, so he will not be accepted.

Śyāmasundara: He had to be repurified.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So one of our community men, so he became barrister, and when he went back, so he was asked by the brahmins, that "You must undergo this prāyaścitta ceremony."

Dhanañjaya: Because he had associated with . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dhanañjaya: . . . Muhammadans.

Śyāmasundara: Englishmen, Englishmen.

Dhanañjaya: Englishmen?

Śyāmasundara: Englishmen.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: He's using an example from his early boyhood.

Prabhupāda: So he became so sorry that he went to take bath in the Ganges and drowned himself, committed suicide. Another, he was also college man, he later on became a very big doctor, Dr. R. L. Dutta, M.D. He also came for education, medical education, here. When he went back, all his father—not father—mother requested, "My dear boy, you have to do this otherwise you will be extricated from the society."

So he decided that "I shall leave this society." So, to . . . mother unwillingly granted him permission: "Then you go out. Otherwise our whole family will be extricated." So he simply asked his wife, "Whether you want to go with me or remain here?" She said: "I am your wife. I must go where you go."

So the husband and wife went away, and later on they accepted . . . they rejected Hindu religion, they became Brahmo. At that time Brahmo religion was going on. Brahmo religion means . . . Rāmānanda, he was also Rāmānanda Rāya, so he introduced a system of Brahmo religion on the basis of impersonal worship of Upaniṣad. Same church, Rabindranath Tagore's. You know Rabindranatha Tagore's name?

Mr. Arnold: Tagore?

Prabhupāda: Tagore, the big poet.

Mr. Arnold: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: His father, his father introduced. So he became a Brahmo. They don't worship deities. Impersonal. And they can eat anything, whatever they like. The real facility was that they want to eat meat, pigs, or wine. That would not be allowed. You see? Indians, they did not know how to drink. It was either Hindus or Muhammadans. Amongst the Muhammadans, drinking is a great sin, is it not?

Mr. Arnold: Still.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Still. They don't drink. That's a great sin. Similarly Hindu.

Dhanañjaya: I believe this is introduced by the English.

Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes.

Dhanañjaya: This drinking is introduced by the English.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They did not know how to drink tea even. Yes.

Mr. Arnold: Gosh.

Prabhupāda: Society girls or meat-eating or drinking tea—these things were introduced by the Englishmen. They did not know.

Devotee: This is Clive?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee: This is Lord Clive?

Prabhupāda: No, after Lord Clive. Lord Clive was in the beginning. He established the British rule there, by cheating Nawab Siraj Daula. So after Lord Clive, then Lord Hastings.

Devotee: Hastings.

Śyāmasundara: Hastings Street in Calcutta.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He was, what is called, Hastings, that big speaker, Burke? When a man is chastised in Parliament, what is called?

Dhanañjaya: Chief Whip.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Śyāmasundara: When a man is chastised.

Mr. Arnold: No, no, not whip, not whip. A man's . . . Mr. Speaker, you mean?

Prabhupāda: Not Speaker.

Śyāmasundara: If a man is chastised in Parliament, what is the name?

What is the term they use?

Mr. Arnold: They withdraw the whip. If he's chastised.

Prabhupāda: There is a technical.

Mr. Arnold: Well, they call it . . . it's chastised, which means to say that when they withdraw the whip, he then has to leave the house for so long until the whip is restored. They're not allowed to sit without the whip.

Prabhupāda: Impeachment, yes.

Śyāmasundara: Impeachment.

Prabhupāda: Impeachment of Warren Hasting. That's a big book.

Śyāmasundara: Oh. The American president.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Śyāmasundara: There was an American president named Warren Hastings.

Mr. Arnold: No, there was this Lord Hastings in India.

Śyāmasundara: Oh, Lord Hastings.

Prabhupāda: Impeachment of . . . he was Warren Hastings, Lord Hastings. He was impeached by one Mr. Burke. So his writings we read, we had prescribed.

Śyāmasundara: Oh, I see.

Prabhupāda: Burke's speeches, some Englishman's speeches, out of them.

Śyāmasundara: Edmund Burke.

Prabhupāda: Edmund Burke, yes. So he impeached this Warren Hastings for his misbehavior in India.

Dhanañjaya: So he was so notorious.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Dhanañjaya: He was so notorious.

Prabhupāda: Everyone was . . . I think it was so in the Parliament.

Mr. Arnold: But Hastings, my lord, surely was trying to be a decent fellow, wasn't he, and uh . . . (laughter) No, he really was, and I am, how I understand it, first of all the whole Indian subcontinent was being sort of taken for a ride by English people out there, you know. They were really trying to make themselves very rich, very quick, and the, and the Parliament in London, they got so scared that they, they first of all removed many of these people, and replaced them by . . .

Prabhupāda: That is natural, if you are in important post, then you take bribe.

Mr. Arnold: Yeah, this is why they put Hastings there. But Hastings . . .

Prabhupāda: Well Hastings, all the governors used to do it.

Mr. Arnold: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: The system was, if some presentation was given to the governor or viceroy, it was to be not his personal property. It was kept as government property. So, these governors made a trick that the presentation may be given to his wife. So it was not government's property, it was the governor's wife property. (laughter) These things are going on.

Śyāmasundara: I remember the story you told us once about an Englishman, and that man wouldn't let him sit on his bench.

Prabhupāda: Yes, in our childhood we have seen it. Even Lord Clive. Lord Clive, at that time there was, when he cheated Siraj Daula. Now he wanted to establish, he wanted to construct Calcutta city. So he wanted some money. So he approached one Indian banker, Sukhamaya Raya. Sukhamaya Raya, at that time Clive was giving facilities, who were helping them. The modern aristocracy in Calcutta was practically made by the Britishers.

They used to give titles, that's all. And give land, and that land is Indian land. So if I, if I say: "You can go and take as much land as you like," well what is the loss of the Britishers? But that man became very obliged, "Oh, the Britisher has given me so much land." (laughter) This was false. I take from Mr. Arnold's pocket, and I pay you. You think, "Oh, Swāmījīis so liberal." (laughter) You do not care that I have pick-pocketed your own man. This was going on.

But they did not take any money from England. Rather, they brought all the money from India here. Yes. So the foolish person, they thought that, "As soon we meet any Englishmen, I become rich."Sahib śubha. Sahib śubha. Sahib śubha: As soon as you become a friend of any nice Englishman, your fortune is start. And that was being done (laughter). That was being done, because they wanted men. That anyone knew, every city, he's immediately given some important post.

Śyāmasundara: Civil Service.

Prabhupāda: Yes. A little English knowledge.

Dhanañjaya: And a title.

Prabhupāda: Some title and money. But they want some clerks, they want some helper. So people began to learn English, and . . . but they didn't want to give high education. No. Simply to become clerks. So one gentleman, Motilal Sil, he was very rich man, so he saw that, "Now English education is very important." So he wanted to start a college, for free education, so that poor man may take English.

Because India was poor, so they could not pay for education. The government stopped, "No, you cannot give free higher education." The government did not want, because the government knew that as the, as soon as these people will be highly educated, they will read history, (laughter) and they will know how to . . . they will know how to revolt, how to fight. And actually that became.

Devotee: That happened. That happened.

Prabhupāda: They did not want to open the secret.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah, I'll bet they . . . I'll bet they didn't know England was a small island, either.

Prabhupāda: Ah. (laughter) And, and somebody goes, he goes, he's near some village, he becomes Lord . . . (indistinct) . . . Lord this, Lord that, but "Where is your Lordship's . . .? You have got so small village." But they wanted to keep their prestige. That was the point. That Gandhi broke this prestige, false prestige. Otherwise, "Oh, Englishmen, they're coming from heaven." (laughter) And they maintained that prestige, somehow or other.

Devotee: Chums for a little village.

Prabhupāda: Ahah. (laughs) So, and Indians, and there was a Lord Macaulay's note, what is called that, "If you want to keep these Indians in their original culture, you'll not be able to rule over them." Therefore they wanted to kill the Indian culture. And they did it.

Śyāmasundara: Dr. Radhakrishnan?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that such a fool, you see.

Śyāmasundara: Made President, wasn't he?

Prabhupāda: They regularly maintained this, I mean to say, standard that, "Anything Indian is, it is primitive, it is useless. Now we are becoming civilized, under our country." That impression was created. So they liked. Then you must drink. You must drink tea, you must drink wine, you must become, dress like European.

Dhanañjaya: Refined. You must become refined.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Dhanañjaya: You must become refined, like an Englishman.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That was in India. Anyone who becomes, imitate, a respectable Englishman, he's considered gentleman.

Śyāmasundara: Imitate.

Prabhupāda: Imitate. Others, Parsis—you know Parsis—they imitate cent percent.

Śyāmasundara: Is there a white, whitish color.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they are whitish color also.

Devotee: (enters room) Hare Kṛṣṇa. There is a Dr. Sharma.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee: A Dr. Sharma

Prabhupāda: He's here?

Mr. Arnold: Or Shah?

Devotee: I'm not sure.

Śyāmasundara: Who is he?

Mr. Arnold: There were . . . I don't know a Dr. Sharma, but there were two Doctors.

Devotee: Not Dr. Sharma, Mr. Sharma.

Mr. Arnold: Mr. Sharma, ah.

Śyāmasundara: Probably Mrs. Sharma's . . . you know Carl Road? Anyway.

Mr. Arnold: We have one hundred and eight people, so I don't know them all personally.

Śyāmasundara: Mr. Arnold has started a guild, Hare Kṛṣṇa Guild?

Dhanañjaya: Guild of the Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Temple. I sent you a lotus badge.

Prabhupāda: Oh, I think that you sent me one.

Śyāmasundara: Yes, he sent one badge for how much, they charge? One pound?

Dhanañjaya: At least one pound.

Śyāmasundara: So we're building up many supporters.

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Śyāmasundara: They don't pay much, but at least they're . . .

Prabhupāda: So you are distributing among Indians or Englishmen?

Dhanañjaya: Everyone.

Mr. Arnold: Everyone.

Dhanañjaya: Anyone who wants to.

Mr. Arnold: The, the main idea, my lord, is so that we can find out exactly what they can do.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is a good idea.

Mr. Arnold: Whether they can paint windows, or wash floors, or then consequently when we do get a very nice little temple.

Prabhupāda: And our real point was that, how the, in the beginning, the Indians treated the Englishmen. The Lord Clive, he wanted some money. So he approached that Sukhamaya Raya, he was very rich man, banker. So his secretary or his doorman informed—he was upstairs—that "Some Englishman has come to see you." "Oh, Englishman? Don't allow him to enter the house." (laughter) "Let him sit down on the door. I am coming. I am coming. Don't bring him here." That was the position. So he came. He came down. He was very rich man.

This Lord Clive wanted to go and see him. He said his doorman, "Don't allow him to enter the door." (laughs) "Let him sit down on the door; I am coming." So he came. So he introduced, that "I am Clive." At that time he might not have been Lord Clive, anyway. "Yes, yes. I have heard your name." He was speaking in Bengali, interpreted.

"So what do you want?" "Now, we want some money. We shall return you very soon with interest." So he said: "Yes, I'll give you money. I know you are good man." Because at that time people were not very much satisfied with the rulings of Siraj Daula. So this Siraj Daula was killed by Clive's intrigue. So some of the people, they liked.

Dhanañjaya: So he wasn't a Vaiṣṇava.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Dhanañjaya: He wasn't Vaiṣṇava.

Prabhupāda: Who?

Dhanañjaya: This Siraj Daula

Prabhupāda: Siraj Daula was a Muhammadan.

Dhanañjaya: Muhammadan?

Prabhupāda: Yes. His only fault . . . he was a good governor, a good ruler, but these Muhammadans are very much woman-hunter. As soon as there is some beautiful woman, "Bring him . . . bring her." This was going on. So this Sukhamaya Raya advanced money to Lord Clive, and when everything was settled up, he was given vast land and the title "king."

Śyāmasundara: The banker?

Prabhupāda: Huh? The banker, yes. (laughter) Similarly, Raja Nava Kumar, he was a clerk of Clive, but he helped, so he was also given land and the title "king." Raja Nava Kumar Raya. There is Sovabazar family. So in this way the Britishers created the Zamindars, land . . . land . . . landholders.

Śyāmasundara: Oh, they created them.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Before that there was no . . .

Prabhupāda: Lord Cornwallis.

Śyāmasundara: Before that there was no kings or small . . .

Prabhupāda: No, there were kings . . .

(break) . . . that is Lord Curzon's advice, that India, send one of the Royal Family member and become King here.

Dhanañjaya: That didn't happen though.

Prabhupāda: Oh, no. This Parliament interfered. They wanted to bring all money from us. If the Britishers would have ruled, that rule, their administration was very much appreciated, but later on it become exploitation.

If the King of England would have ruled the other parts of the world as King, for the benefit of the local people, the British Empire would have continued for long. That was their mistake. It was very nice program, the British Empire. They had very good administration; that everyone admits. But later on the administration became too expert for English people.

If they had ruled over the area for the benefit of the people . . . that is the King's duty. As King, as it is Vedic principle, King should give protection to the citizens, make them religious, make them upright. That is King's duty, not that simply collect tax and think that "This property's mine," and spend it as he likes. Of course, in England also, because when the King was doing like that, that Cromwell introduced this parliamentary system.

Mr. Arnold: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And the King James, he was . . .

Mr. Arnold: Executed.

Prabhupāda: Executed. Now it is by simply name, "King," it has power. His Majesty, Her Majesty has no power. So this British Empire was very nicely planned, and it was desire of God, but later on they make this policy, exploitation; therefore it failed. That is my opinion.

Śyāmasundara: The only, the only thing I could see that they did good is that they gave English, so that you could come to us in the West—so Your Divine Grace could come here and give us Vaiṣṇavism, Vaiṣṇava philosophy.

Prabhupāda: So, that was possible even at that time. But they would not accept.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: When India was dependent, they would not accept anything from India; then their prestige is gone. Here, as I told you, when my Godbrother came, Lord Wellington, his wife, Lady Wellington . . . Lord Wellington, he was Viceroy. So there was some introduction later. So Lady Wellington challenged our Godbrother, "Swamījī, your men come here.

We educate them, give some title, and they go to India, become very big man, important man. So what you have got to teach us?" She challenged him like that. They are not prepared to take anything Indian, or give any importance.

Dhanañjaya: They're thinking you're second or third class.

Prabhupāda: No. They knew they're first class, but they would not allow to become first class. Otherwise their prestige is gone. They were teaching that, "Anything, whatever you've got, that is all third class. Take from us. That is first class." This was the impression.

Śyāmasundara: Indians are so mild mannered and gentle that they didn't resist.

Prabhupāda: No. There is another illusion. If you become supporter of the British rule, you get profit. The British say, "We'll give you land—your land," (laughter) "give you title." So the British businessman, he'll make him chief salesman. (laughter) Chief salesman means any way, they will sell their goods.

The chiefs are just like Motilal Sil, he was chief salesman of seven British business houses, but they cannot approach the local customers, they require the help of a broker. But the broker thinks, "Oh, these Englishmen has made me big man."

Śyāmasundara: Like Sir Padampat Singhania? He got "Sir" title from the British.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that he got because he contributed large sum of money during war fund. So in the commission, not only he, many rich men, got this "Sir" title, because they contributed enough money for prosecuting this war affair.

Devotee: Was the Indian government in agreement with this?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee: The Indian government, did they agree with this? All this?

Prabhupāda: The Indian government is British government at that time.

Śyāmasundara: There wasn't any Indian government.

Prabhupāda: The India was forced to join the war, by British, British government.

Śyāmasundara: Pakistan . . .

Prabhupāda: And then they utilized Indian soldiers, the Sikh soldier. The India had no hand. And this Mr. Singhania, he supported this, so he was made Lord. So these are politics.

Śyāmasundara: Actually, I think that even the word "Sir" comes from Śrī, doesn't it?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Śyāmasundara: The word "Sir", English word "Sir," doesn't that come from Śrī, Sanskrit Śrī?

Prabhupāda: Now, that I do not know. "Sir" means gentleman. "Sir" means knight.

Mr. Arnold: "Sir" is a knight. Monsieur. It comes from French.

Śyāmasundara: I thought it came from Sanskrit, Śrī.

Mr. Arnold: It could possibly come from . . . but "Sir" was being used in the West for centuries.

Prabhupāda: So where is that Sharma?

Devotee: Oh, they went down to ārati.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah, but the original inhabitants of Britain came from India.

Mr. Arnold: Well, this is a . . . (laughs) But, uh, there's two, there's two . . .

Śyāmasundara: Is that right, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Śyāmasundara: The original inhabitants of Europe and Britain came from India? Aryan, Aryan tribes?

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Śyāmasundara: Oh.

Prabhupāda: No. Originally Aryan came from India.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: That is in Greece, Turkey, and then gradually I think . . .

Śyāmasundara: Hun?

Prabhupāda: . . . Romans came to England.

Śyāmasundara: But there was Huns. Before that there was Huns, and you mentioned others from Bhāgavatam, Pulinda, Huns, Mongols, Saxons and . . .

Prabhupāda: So Europe, mixed up. Not pure Aryans.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah, but they, they came from that part, didn't they, India, the . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. Huns were in this side, European side.

Dhanañjaya: We were also . . .

Prabhupāda: North, north of Russia, still they're Huns. Kirāta-hūṇāndhr. Kirāta means the Africans. So the Europeans, originally Indian kṣatriyas, some of them came to this side, being afraid of being killed by Paraśurāma. Kṣatriya-rudhira-maye jagad-apagata-pāpaṁ (Śrī Daśāvatāra-stotra 6). He was, twenty-one times killed all the kṣatriyas.

Haṁsadūta: What does that mean, twenty-one times? You mean they took birth again, and then He . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. Twenty-one times there's seven years war.

Haṁsadūta: Seven . . . twenty-one wars. Campaigns.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So at that time some of them fled from, and settled up here.

Śyāmasundara: Because they call our English language an Indo-Aryan language. That means they find many of the roots in Sanskrit words.

Prabhupāda: Sanskrit. Sanskrit, the Professor Rowe, he was Professor in Sanskrit, in Presidency College. He has his grammar, Rowe and Wade. We read that grammar. In that grammar he has written that, "Sanskrit is the mother of all languages." He has written. And your European language, from Latin, Latin is also originated from Sanskrit. Just like matri sabdhā, this is Sanskrit. Like Latin mater.

Dhanañjaya: Mother.

Prabhupāda: Pitri sabdhā.

Dhanañjaya: Father.

Prabhupāda: Father. Pitā.

Dhanañjaya: Pata.

Prabhupāda: Pata. Like that.

Dhanañjaya: Pata, patri.

Prabhupāda: The original "father" and "mother," that is derived from Sanskrit.

Śyāmasundara: And in the Teutonic languages also, German languages, like atma means to breath, still. Atma, "to breath."

Prabhupāda: And there is one book, Aquarian Gospel? There it is mentioned that Christo, this is a Greek word. But krista is a perverted representation of Kṛṣṇa. In India also, still, we call, if one's name is Kṛṣṇa, we call Krista, still. My younger brother's name was Kṛṣṇa, so we we were, we were calling him by the name Krista.

"Krista!" Not Krista—"Kesta." And from this word krista, the Christ has come. So this Christian religion has got a link with Kṛṣṇa. And Jesus Christ went to India. He remained there for twelve years. That Aquarian Gospel writes; I do not know. You have read that book?

Mr. Arnold: Not at all.

Prabhupāda: He resided in Jagannātha temple.

Haṁsadūta: I've read it.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Haṁsadūta: I read that book.

Prabhupāda: You have read it, that's it. But there was some misunderstanding; therefore left Jagannātha temple. He went to Buddhist temple in Katmandu. So at that time he received one letter, his father and mother died, when he was staying in India. So Jesus Christ remained for a considerable years in India.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah. There's a whole period of his life, where there's nothing known . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: . . . about him, about his movements.

Prabhupāda: Then he started his preaching here. And in the beginning of his life, he was horrified when the Jews were killing birds in the Synagogue. He was horrified. So how Jesus Christ will allow animal killing? And therefore he said: "Thou shalt not kill." From his life, from his other information, he was not for killing. He was not for killing.

Mr. Arnold: He did . . .

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Mr. Arnold: . . . on two occasions cause the death of fish, my lord.

Prabhupāda: One thing is, might have done when there was no other means of eating. This is one point, so far I study. Another thing is that what was the purpose, or even there is no purpose, he was so powerful, he could do that. But we should follow the instruction of Jesus Christ, we should not imitate him.

Śyāmasundara: There's some doubt whether that word has been translated from the original language properly.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Śyāmasundara: There's some doubt whether our word "fish" is the proper translation for that word in the original.

Prabhupāda: Many . . . but in the common men, it is clearly said: "Thou shalt not kill. That is, that you have to accept. That even Jesus Christ ate some fish or some . . . that maybe some special circumstances.

Mr. Arnold: The breaking of the bread; the feeding of the five thousand—two small loaves, fishes, certain fishes.

Dhanañjaya: Five loaves and two fishes.

Śyāmasundara: I read a book put out by the Vegetarian Society that said that, that word was translated from the Greek copy of the Aramaic, and in the Greek, that word means a loaf of bread made of some kind of seaweed that grows in Galilee, a kind of sea . . .

Prabhupāda: That may be interpretation. But without interpretation, if you have to accept the Ten Commandments, how you can kill? There is no such chance of killing. And other statement that he gave, that the animals are given under the . . .

Śyāmasundara: Dominion.

Prabhupāda: . . . dominion of man. That does not mean they are meant for killing. Just like Nanda Mahārāja, Kṛṣṇa's foster father, he was maintaining 900,000 cows, giving protection. And it is the duty of the vaiśya community, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ (BG 18.44). There are three different types of occupation: agriculture, cow protection and trade.

That is called vaiśya. So, giving the animals under the human being means protection, not for killing. Suppose if you give . . . you give your child to some gentleman, that "I am going—you take care of this child," it does not mean that the child has to be killed. So I don't think in Christian religion killing is allowed. I don't.

Haṁsadūta: In the very, very first pages of the Bible it says when Lord created the Earth and everything, and then He says: "The seed-bearing plants of the earth shall be your meat, and strictly forbidden to eat other things." It says very clearly what they shall eat.

Prabhupāda: Besides that, Lord Jesus Christ says that you should . . . well-behaved with your neighbor, what is that?

Mr. Arnold: "One should love thy neighbor as thyself."

Prabhupāda: Thyself?

Mr. Arnold: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So, in broader sense now, there are many animals, they're also our neighbor, the domestic animals. So Lord Jesus Christ cannot say that your human being are neighbors, they are not your neighbors. And he was horrified when animals and birds are being killed in the Jews' Synagogue. That is . . . so one who is horrified for killing, and he specifically accepted, "Thou shalt not kill." I don't think in Christian religion killing is allowed.

Mr. Arnold: But it's such a long-accepted practice now, my lord.

Prabhupāda: That is different thing.

Mr. Arnold: Very difficult.

Prabhupāda: That is different. That is different. You are practiced to something; that is different thing. But when you talk of Christian religion, I don't think killing can be allowed. And besides that, any religion, killing is barbarian. Killing is barbarian. When you talk of religion, there cannot be any killing.

Śyāmasundara: Kṛṣṇa says: "When there is a rise in irreligion, then I come."

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Śyāmasundara: Kṛṣṇa says: "When there is a rise in irreligion, then I come."

Prabhupāda: Yes. So far Muhammadan religion is concerned, that is also killing restricted, and they had no other ways. It is desert.

Devotee: But that's a very . . .

Prabhupāda: Another thing, even killing of animal is required for sacrifice, the Vedic religion also allow—but not cow. These goats, they are allowed. The meat-eater, under restriction, they can eat goats. But not the higher caste. The Brahmin, kṣatriya, vaiśyas, they would not. The lowest class, the śūdras, or lower than that, they used to kill. But not cows, because cow is very important animal.

Dhanañjaya: I remember once also . . .

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Dhanañjaya: . . . on a walk in Mr. John Lennon's estate, you were speaking about how when the old cows and old bulls die, then the mucis, the cobblers, after taking off their skin . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dhanañjaya: . . . then they could take.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dhanañjaya: But not before.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no.

Dhanañjaya: Not before.

Prabhupāda: No, it is not very wise to kill cow. But if you want cow's skin, there is guarantee. Anyone will die; you get the skin. And if you want to eat, then at the time when it dies, you can eat. So why you should kill? Killing means economic loss. The cows, while living, is giving the nicest food—milk. And so long you get nice milk, you can prepare so many nutritious foodstuff, from cow's milk.

Haṁsadūta: Fertilizer you can get, too.

Prabhupāda: Fertilizer. Cow dung. Cow's urine is also so, I mean, antiseptic. So the meat-eaters may, if they're insisting. First, first of all, nobody should eat meat. All right, if there is a class of men, they want eating meat, but they can eat. Just like they're eating hogs, or goats.

Haṁsadūta: Hunting for things.

Prabhupāda: Hunting other animals. But cow especially must be protected, for society's good. Must be protected—from gratitude. We are drinking milk of cow. How we can kill our mother? From all considerations, especially cow protection must be there. That is the duty of the vaiśyas, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ.

Cow protection is especially mentioned. And the cow blood, the milk is nothing but blood. So you get more vitamin value by drinking milk than eating, drinking, cow blood. From all points of view, cow protection must be there. That is human civilization. From all points of view.

Śyāmasundara: And they eat garbage. They don't eat . . . it's not that they're going to eat very much. They eat garbage or any grass.

Prabhupāda: No, that is our . . . because of want of food. They should be given nice food. One nice food.

Mr. Arnold: Grass.

Prabhupāda: You take the paddies of the wheat, and you give him the grass. You take the pulp of the fruit, and you give the skin. You take the plantain, banana, the inside pulp, and you give him the skin. So there is always share, and the cow, taking the rejected portion, is supplying you milk. You cannot avoid milk, but on account of this sinful activity, milk supplies will be stopped. There will be no more milk. That is stated in the Bhāgavatam.

Śyāmasundara: If they have no mercy for the cow, what to speak of other humans, now they're killing the . . .

Prabhupāda: They have no mercy. There is no question of mercy. And they cannot be devotion also, animal killers. According to our conception, every living entity is part and parcel of God. So suppose God . . . in Christian religion also it is accepted, "father." So the father has got so many children. Some of them are animals, some of them are trees, some of them are human beings, some of them are insects, some of them . . . like that—8,400,000 species.

Kṛṣṇa claims sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya: "In all species of life, as many forms are there,"sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ (BG 14.4). Mūrtayaḥ means "forms." In all species of life. He does not say simply human form—all forms. And Kṛṣṇa's picture, you see, is . . . as loving . . . where is that picture you showed me?

Haṁsadūta: He's always with the cow.

Prabhupāda: Ah, He is embracing.

Haṁsadūta: The cow in the back

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Arnold: I have one also.

Prabhupāda: So He has personally taught us how to treat with cow. He began a cowherds boy, and His business was go early in the morning to take care of the cows and go in the forest.

Dhanañjaya: And also, of course, when He was, when He was in danger after, after killing Pūtanā, then all the women came, bathed with urine . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, the ladies, Yaśodā and other ladies took Him to the cow dung, and cow's tail, like that, so that inauspicity may go. So cow has been given very importance position. And practically we see, we are drinking cow's milk still. Still also many dairy farms are going on. So cow killing in human society cannot be supported.

Cannot be supported. In . . . during Emperor Akbar's time, one poet wrote a poetry presenting to the emperor about the cow's appealing that, "I am doing this, I am doing this, I am doing this. I am simply eating grass, and I don't encroach upon your foodstuff, but still I give you so nice food that your children lives on this, and when I die, I give my skin, I give my hoof. I am so serviceable. I am willing to serve you, and still you are killing me." The substance of the poetry is there, and when Emperor Akbar read this poetry, he stopped cow killing: "No. No more cow killing."

Haṁsadūta: Which king was that?

Prabhupāda: Huh? Akbar. The first Mogul emperor. He simply presented this poetry, had the cow appealing that, "I am giving so much service—not only living time, even after my death. Still you are killing me. And you call yourself civilized." So when Emperor Akbar read this poetry, he stopped. In Afghanistan still, there is no cow killing. Afghanistan.

Śyāmasundara: That's a Muhammadan country, isn't it?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. And long ago I was coming from Kashmir, one Muhammadan gentlemen was my fellow passenger, so when he called for that restaurant man, so he was whispering, "Don't . . . is it cow's flesh? "Well, no, no, no, it is not." So there are many Muhammadans, they won't touch cow's flesh. Still, in India. There are many vegetarian also.

Śyāmasundara: Many signs in the restaurants, "No beef."

Prabhupāda: Yes. So for civilized society, cow killing must be stopped. It is a great sin. From all points of view—from economic point of view, from religious point of view, from social point of view.

Dhanañjaya: That's a big task.

Śyāmasundara: Everybody thinks that there's no, we have no reason to not kill cows, that we're simply sentimental, the Indians or the Vaiṣṇavas.

Prabhupāda: Sentiment, yes. Do you think this sentiment is bad? You are drinking milk, and cow is accepted as mother. Is this sentiment? Is it sentiment? You drink one's milk, and you consider that animal as ordinary animal. How you are civilized? According to Vedic civilization, even, just like Kṛṣṇa, because He drank the milk of Pūtanā, He took him as mother, although she came to poison Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa took the bright side that, "Whatever he" (laughter) "she, she might have done, I have sucked her breast. Oh, she has become My mother. She should get the exact position like My mother." This is sentiment.

Haṁsadūta: You know one of their arguments is that if we don't kill the cow, there'll be over-population. They say.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Haṁsadūta: Yes, they say about the cows that if we did not have slaughterhouses to kill these cows, there would be so many cows they would take up everything. This, this is the kind of argument. Really. I'm serious. They say.

Dhanañjaya: That's demonic thinking.

Prabhupāda: The rascals, they do not understand they will be oversupplied of milk, he will be happy. (laughing)

Śyāmasundara: Everything will be adjusted.

Prabhupāda: You'll get more rasgullās. (laughter) Ghee.

Dhanañjaya: Cream.

Prabhupāda: Cream, so many things.

Śyāmasundara: They're actually bred anyway, the cows. Artificial insemination is what makes so many cows. Our cows at New Vrindavan are born from artificial insemination. They take the sperm . . .

Prabhupāda: They, they want for food. They want to kill.

Haṁsadūta: The people are not . . . they don't . . . they don't even like milk, these people, at least in Germany. They give the milk to the hogs in Germany. They give. But we sometimes go to a farm, you know, and they say: "Oh, and we have just given all the milk to the hogs."

Mr. Arnold: They take the cream off first.

Haṁsadūta: They said: "We ourselves, we don't, we hardly ever drink milk. We take a little for our coffee, for the cream, but the rest we give to the hog, or we sell to the dairy."

Śyāmasundara: They make it into cheese that tastes like meat, smells like meat. Make it into cheese.

Haṁsadūta: Most people don't drink too much milk. The younger children, the children drink the milk, but once they get past sixteen years old, they don't take much milk anymore.

Prabhupāda: That means beginning of life is from milk. If there was no milk, how your children would live?

Śyāmasundara: Even in Russia the babies were drinking milk.

Prabhupāda: So still you're killing. No. There is no reason for cow killing.

Śyāmasundara: In fact, a cow that eats grass, it only bites it off—it doesn't pull the roots. The grass grows back, and it's harmless. But the goats, they pull the grass up by the root. No grass can grow there anymore.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Śyāmasundara: So actually in North Africa, it used to be very verdant, very fertile land, and from so many thousands of years of grazing goats—I read an article in a science magazine—it's depleted the soil. No grass grows there now. It's desert, desert country mostly. The Muhammadans introduced goats, and those goats have eaten all the grass. It won't grow back.

Dhanañjaya: But before them there were cows, because that's when Mahārāja Parīkṣit was traveling in his kingdom, and Kali personified was . . .

Śyāmasundara: North Africa?

Dhanañjaya: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah, originally it was very fertile, even in Roman times. Carthaginian.

Prabhupāda: Cow dung is a fertilization. Any, any stool is fertilizer. So passing stool in the field, that is, stool is utilized for some purpose. Now in the cities, we are passing so much stool, it is being spoiled. (laughter) No, there was scientific estimation, that we are losing so many, so much quantity of fat and hypophosphite, and this, like that.

Mr. Arnold: Did you see the article today in the paper, my lord, that uh . . .

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Mr. Arnold: . . . one borough council was giving farmers, and all the various people, free fertilizers that was in fact, was made from the human's excreta, and the scientists were finding that there was vast deposits of mercury and lead. In fact it was killing the land, and it was being taken from humans.

Prabhupāda: In stool?

Mr. Arnold: Yes.

Prabhupāda: No. In Germany they attempted to extract fat from stool, and they did it. They collected all stool, and by chemical process extracted fat from it. And from practical experience stool is very substantial food, vitamin A, B, C, D. (laughter) You see the hogs, they eat, they become very quickly fat. (laughter)

Because human being, eating all valuable foodstuff, they cannot digest—so that is passing into stool. So all the feed values are there. So better the scientist make some research. And they made, German scientist, and they extracted fat from stool. I do not know if they're still doing. (laughter) You know, you know better.

Haṁsadūta: I don't know about it.

Mr. Arnold: Then the scientists, the German scientists anyway, have made very fine meat from wood. Hauptsfleisch they called it.

Śyāmasundara: When was this?

Mr. Arnold: They were selling this during the war, in tins.

Śyāmasundara: Out of wood?

Mr. Arnold: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: The Germans?

Mr. Arnold: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Then why not take vegetable?

Mr. Arnold: Yes, but, you know the American Spam stuff? Well, when we were in the army, of course, we got cut off, you know, and we was eating anything.

Prabhupāda: So, that Mr. Sharma can come. Let him come in. Yes. He wanted to see me.

Mr. Arnold: Well, can I be excused, my lord, for a little while? Go and see my wife? She's downstairs.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Mr. Arnold: Can I be excused?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Śyāmasundara: She can come up here.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Śyāmasundara: Later.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Let her come. Oh, you can, you can go, bring her. (to new guest) You sit down. He is going, he is going.

Mr. Arnold: Well, I'd like change, my lord, too, because I've out since . . .

Prabhupāda: All right, all right, all right.

Dhanañjaya: Should I bring his wife?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Haṁsadūta: He's just coming. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . be introduced to the human society. They will be saved.

Dhanañjaya: There's, there's some very nice land still in England that could be used for, for a nice āśrama, country āśrama. There's some very nice land still. In Devon, in the West Country of England, in Wales. Scotland also.

Prabhupāda: When people understand that we are doing something very important, they will cooperate. It is our duty to convince them.

Śyāmasundara: Intelligent men like Mr. Arnold are many. They can understand through philosophy, if we just give it.

Prabhupāda: Mr. Arnold can preach amongst . . .

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: . . . gentlemen-class men.

Śyāmasundara: When he becomes more and more . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: . . . convinced. He's a wonderful man.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Very logical, and cool-headed.

Prabhupāda: (people enter and Prabhupada greets) Yes?

Dhanañjaya: Would you like the fire on, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Dhanañjaya: Would you like the fire on?

Prabhupāda: What is that? You should come.

Śyāmasundara: Fire, do you want the fire on?

Prabhupāda: I don't want. Mandir me bhid bohot hota hai. Jagah nahi hai. To ek jagah ka bandobast kijiye, ap log. Rent hoye aur jo kuch hoye. Ek to accha . . . (The temple is very crowded. There is no space. Arrange some place, by rent or by any means.)

Guest: Ha, bhid bohot hai. Jagah kam hai. Jagah ka abhi . . . ji ha. (Yes very crowded. Space is alot less. Regarding some place . . . all right.)

Prabhupāda: We want a big hall.

Guest: Abhi abhi bat chal raha tha, (We have been holding discussions for some time,) and I have to buy another hall, big place in Kingsway, for few months back.

Prabhupāda: Aiye aiye. (Come come.) Come on.

Guest: Few months back.

Prabhupāda: Jaya.

Guest: But I think they were wanting much more money. We could not afford to pay that much.

Prabhupāda: Money ka kya abhab hai? Ap log nahi de sakte? Itna Hindi, itna Indian . . . (Is there any scarcity of money? Can't you people give money? So many Hindus, so many Indians . . .)

Guest: Ha, bohot. Yehi to bat hai abhi. (Yes alot. This is the main thing.) Actually I started coming only few months back.

Prabhupāda: (Mrs. Arnold enters) How are you?

Mrs. Arnold: Very well, thank you. Very nice.

Prabhupāda: To iska bandobast kijiye. Itna bada, bhari kam ho raha hai. Hindu log sab so rahe hai. To isiliye to patan ho gaya. (Then make arrangements for this. Such a huge amount of work going on. All the Hindus are sleeping. That's why there was a downfall.)

Guest: Ji ha. Bilkul. Ji bilkul thik kahe. Apki bat thik hai ki abhi Hindu log aur paisa kitna kharch kar le lekin idhar abhi itna dhyan nahi dete. Agar hum ikatthe hokar . . . yehi bat thik hai. (Yes. Absolutely. Whatever you say is right. Your opinion is right, that no matter how much money Hindus spend, they do not give attention to this. If we are united . . . you are right.)

Prabhupāda: Wo ek Pakistan nikal gaya uske liye ro raha hai . . . (One Pakistan has left and they are crying) and we can make the whole world Hindustan.

Guest: Ji hai. Thik he (Okay.)

Prabhupāda: Inka thoda dimag me dijiye na. (Insert the idea in their minds.)

Guest: Thik he. (Okay.)

Prabhupāda: Thoda sa Pakistan nikal gaya to janma bhar ro rahe hai. (Only Pakistan has separated and they are crying throughout their life.)

Guest: Ji ha. (Yes.)

Prabhupāda: And why don't you take this opportunity to make the whole world Hindustan?

Guest: That's right.

Prabhupāda: Thoda samajh lijiye. (Please understand it.) I'm doing that.

Guest: Bilkul thik bat hai apki. (What you are saying is absolutely right.)

Prabhupāda: I'm claiming the whole world is Bhārata-varṣa. Last night's . . . you were present last night?

Guest: Actually, I'm staying over thirty miles from this place.

Prabhupāda: Oh. I told that, that whole world was Bhārata, Bhārata-varṣa.

Guest: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: You remember?

Guest (2): Yes.

Prabhupāda: So I'm claiming the whole world Bhārata-varṣa, and whole world Vedic culture.

Guest: Thik he. (Okay.)

Prabhupāda: And whole world's God is one—Kṛṣṇa.

Guest: That's right.

Prabhupāda: So why don't you help us?

Guest: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: I do not know why the Hindus, they are not, they are not coming, in my cooperation. They are so much downtrodden.

Guest: That's right. Wo to itna hai ki apne log apna hi sanskriti ko bhul gaye hai aur agar dusre ka . . . (They are so fallen that our people have forgotten their own culture and if others . . .)

Prabhupāda: Iska mane jahannum me gaya. (That means they have gone to hell.)

Guest: Ji ha aur dusre log jo inko apnakar wo wahi prachar kar rahe hai, un pe bhi apne log kehte hai ye to aise hi hai. (Yes, other people are adopting this and preaching but our own people consider them useless.)

Prabhupāda: Nahi nahi, kaun prachar karega? Kaun hai prachar karne wala? (No, no, who is going to preach? Who is there to preach?) I can challenge all these rascals. They come to earn some money. These so-called Bhāgavata reader, and these, and Swami, and . . . they come to earn some money. They do not want that this culture should be spread, neither they know how to spread it.

Guest: Yes. That's right.

Prabhupāda: Ap log thoda samjhiye. (You people please try to understand.) I've used some strong word, but it is with great regret. That so many Indians there are, they are not coming to my cooperation.

Guest: That's right. Abhi age se kuch, age se preaching . . . matlab ki ho raha hai jagriti lekin itni nahi jitni honi chahiye. (Nowadays, there is relatively more preaching . . . I mean they are awakening but not as much as it should be.) Not so much as we should.

Prabhupāda: That we have congested. We want immediately. We cannot expect monetary help from others.

Guest: Naturally.

Prabhupāda: You see.

Guest: That's right.

Prabhupāda: But they are still giving us so much help, these European boys and American boys.

Guest: Yeah, they are doing a lot more.

Prabhupāda: Not a single Indian coming.

Guest: Yeah. That I do realize, because I started coming this temple about six months back. So I went through some of the literature which I got from Oxford Street in the beginning, before, when I came from India.

Prabhupāda: That is my plight, you see.

Guest: And I was . . .

Prabhupāda: I don't get any Indian, Hindu cooperation, in such a big movement.

Guest: So I thought that we Indians who should have much more, sacrifice much more devotion, much more donation to this city and this . . .

Prabhupāda: Now immediately we require a big place.

Guest: Yeah. Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: And so, so many Indians, rich Indians are there; they are not coming forward.

Guest: That's right.

Prabhupāda: To ap log yadi cooperation karke kuch bandobast kare to makan to bohot mil jayega. Bohot mil jayega. (If you people cooperate and try to manage something, then we will find many buildings. We will find many.) How many Indians are here in London?

Dhanañjaya: Around 200,000.

Guest: How much?

Prabhupāda: 200,000. If they, if contribute one pound each.

Guest: One pound each will be with one . . .

Prabhupāda: Immediately we can purchase a nice place.

Guest (2): Today, the United Kingdom is about ten thousand, uh, ten lakhs.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Guest (2): Ten lakhs.

Guest: Ten million.

Dhanañjaya: One million.

Guest (2): One million, that means ten lakhs of people living here . . .

Prabhupāda: So we can immediately raise ten lakhs.

Guest (2): In London there are only about two lakhs now.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Guest (2): In London there are two lakhs. In whole of the United Kingdom . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh. Isko ap log sab . . . hum to buddha ho gaya, hum kya kar sakte hai? Hum to introduce kiya. (So you people . . . I am an old man, what can I do? I have introduced it.)

Guest: Apne bohot kiya. Waise ye maine dekha. (You have done a lot. I have seen.) We went to all the temples of the world and . . .

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Guest (3): The thing is a great achievement.

Guest: In this century, I would say . . .

Prabhupāda: They . . . you simply speak on your lips but don't come forward to help me.

Guest: Hm. That's right.

Prabhupāda: It is a great achievement, undoubtedly. Whole world will accept. That's a fact.

Guest: Abhi maine apka darshan nahi kiya tha lekin wo literature apka . . . (I had not got your darshan until now but your literature . . .) I have been going through. Abhi pata kiya, abhi aya hua hu. (I came to know just now, so I have come here.)

Prabhupāda: Itna kitab diya humne, itna service kiya . . . (So many books I have given, so much service I have done) . . . but I don't want to become proud. It is my duty I have done. But you should know it. You should help me. Neither the government is helping, neither the Indian people is helping, and neither the foreign . . . Subhas Bose, he raised fund and established one INA fleet. But I cannot do that. Why this non-cooperation? I do not know what I have done. Ap log thoda sochiye. (Please think about it.) Why this non-cooperation spirit?

Guest: Oh, nahi (no), I would say not non-cooperation, it is ignorance.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I don't get their cooperation.

Guest: It's ignorance, that they . . .

Prabhupāda: But ignorance—that, that it is foolishness.

Guest: The foolishness I would say.

Prabhupāda: It's not ignorance. It is foolishness. Itna zarurat hai . . . (It's an urgent need) . . . immediately for a nice place. And so many English boys are coming. I can keep thousands of them . . .

Guest: Thousands of . . .

Prabhupāda: . . . if I get a proper place.

Guest: That's right.

Prabhupāda: Isko ap log thoda gaur kijiye. Thoda bandobast kijiye. (You people please take it seriously. Make some arrangements.)

Guest: When Keśava from USA—he came here about two months back . . .

Prabhupāda: Who?

Guest: Keśavananda.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. He's my disciple, Keśava.

Guest: 455 Valencia, San Francisco. And at that time they went to have some place, but they said we could not have money, that's what the . . .

Prabhupāda: The money, you can, you can contribute.

Guest: Hmm.

Prabhupāda: I came in America with seven dollars only.

Guest: That's right.

Prabhupāda: Nobody gave me money. Neither government, neither big men.

Guest: No, that I know. It was all you alone, personally and all great continuous perseverance.

Prabhupāda: Ap log thoda sympathetic ho karke movement ko badhaiye. (You people, please be sympathetic and try to increase this movement.) (break) (end)