701224 - Lecture SB 06.01.42-43 - Surat

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His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

701224SB-SURAT - December 24, 1970 - 62:56 Minutes

Haṁsadūta: The following lecture was recorded on the morning of December 24th, 1970, in Surat, India. (break)


sūryo 'gniḥ khaṁ marud devaḥ
somaḥ sandhyāhanī diśaḥ
kaṁ kuḥ svayaṁ dharma iti
hy ete daihyasya sākṣiṇaḥ
(SB 6.1.42)

There are many Vedic evidences how the Vedas are directly received from the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Here are some of the evidences quoted from the Vedas:

svayambhu miticha nisyam matrena svayam eva bhavati sed
asya mahato bhūtasya naśvasitam etad yad ṛg-vedo iti

In the Vedas it is stated that by the breathing of the Mahā-Viṣṇu, all these Vedas, especially Rg-Veda, is manifested.

Then the question is that dharma or adharma. Dharma and the opposite, adharma; religion or non-religion; pious and non-pious; how they can be distinguished? How one is detected that he is non-religious and non-pious? This question was raised by our Christian professor when I was student in the Scottish Churches College, Calcutta. Dr. Urquhart, he was a great scholar, but he did not believe in the karma-vāda, that one has to suffer or enjoy the fruits of his own karma. Because according to Christian philosophy, after death there is no more birth. Is it not? Heh?

Who is there? (a few devotees talk at once, indistinct)

So his argument was that "Who is the witness?" According karma-vāda, his analogy was that suppose a man has done something criminal. In the court there are witnesses to prove that this man has committed this theft or this criminal activity. So who is the witness? Suppose I have done something criminal or impious in my past life, so who is giving evidences that I did it; therefore I am suffering?

So at that time, of course, we were boys only. There was not much study; we simply heard. Later on, of course, we could understand from Bhagavad-gītā that the supreme witness is Kṛṣṇa Himself: īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61), and He is the prime witness. He is seeing everyone, what he is doing. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo (BG 15.15): "I am sitting in everyone's heart." Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca: "Through Me anyone, every living entity, gets his remembrance or forgetfulness."

So this is also essential, that if anyone questions that why God, Kṛṣṇa, makes one forgetful and why God makes one remembering—that is also His mercy. This is mercy. Now suppose if one was a king in his previous birth, and now he has become a hog. So if the hog does not forget that he was a king... There was..., in the Purāṇas there are stories like that. Sometimes Indra, the king of heaven, he was cursed to become a hog. So he was enjoying the hog's life—the she-hog and many kiddies and eating stool and living in a very nice, filthy place. (laughter) So he was enjoying that life.

Now when Brahmā saw that in his absence the management of the heavenly kingdom was not properly being done, so he came down and asked the hog that "All right, whatever you have done, now I have come to deliver you to come with me." The hog said, "No, no. I cannot go. I have got so much family responsibilities." (laughter) You see? So he refused. He was Indra, the king of heaven—now he is acting as hog, and he is satisfied. That is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. If he was not satisfied, how he could live as a hog?

Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15): "Through Me the living entity forgets." That is a qualification of the conditioned soul. That is the difference between God and the living entity. God does not forget; the living entity forgets. That is the difference, how the difference is understood.

In the Bhagavad-gītā you will see when Kṛṣṇa says that "Previously I spoke this science of Bhagavad-gītā, bhagavad-yoga," imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1), "to the sun-god." So Arjuna enquired from Kṛṣṇa, "How is that? Kṛṣṇa, You are my age, You were born later, and sun-god means long, long years ago. So how is it that You instructed him?"

So His answer was that "Both you and Me had many, many births, but you have forgotten; I remember." This is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. That means the living entity is subjected to forgetfulness. Just like if I ask any one of you to remember what you were doing at this time say one week before, that is very difficult to answer immediately.

So forgetfulness is a qualification or disqualification, whatever Kṛṣṇa says, of the living entity. And at the present moment we have also all forgotten that we are part and parcel of God. We have intimate relationship with Him, and somehow or other we have fallen in this material world—we don't remember. Because we do not remember, therefore Kṛṣṇa mercifully gives you all these Vedas—because you do not remember.

anādi-bahirmukha jīva kṛṣṇa bhuli' gela
ataeva kṛṣṇa veda-purāṇa kailā
(CC Madhya 20.117)

This is a statement in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, that from time immemorial. When the forgetfulness began, it is very difficult to trace out; but in fact we have forgotten. That's a fact. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is so merciful, in order to remind us about our spiritual life, our spiritual identity, our oneness with Kṛṣṇa as spiritual sparks, as part and parcel... These things we have forgotten.

Our actual relationship with Kṛṣṇa we have forgotten; therefore Kṛṣṇa comes personally sometimes, just like Kṛṣṇa came, and He teaches. He leaves behind Him the Bhagavad-gītā to remind us about our relationship with Kṛṣṇa, and He requests that "Please give up all your nonsense engagement as hogs. Please come back to Me; I shall give you protection," sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66).

That is Kṛṣṇa's business, because Kṛṣṇa is the father of all living entities. He is not happy that all these living entities are rotting as hogs in this material world. Therefore it is His business. He comes personally sometimes; He sends His representative, He sends His son, just like Lord Jesus Christ. He claims that he is the son. This is quite possible, that... Everyone is son, but this son means a particular favorite son who is sent to a particular place to reclaim them back to home, back to Godhead. This is going on.

So that question that Christian professor, Dr. Urquhart, said, "Who is the..." Therefore all other scriptures, they are not sufficient; they are insufficient. Only Vedic literatures are sufficient—full. They are also parts of the Vedic literature, but just like I..., several times we have gave the example: the pocket dictionary and the international dictionary, Webster's—very big volume dictionary. Both of them are dictionaries, but pocket dictionary is not as full of information as in the Webster's International Dictionary.

Similarly, there are many scriptures later on developed, as with the development of this Kali-yuga people became deviated from the Vedic rules and regulations, so many other religions have developed. There is information, but they are not perfect, not full information. But in the Vedas you will find full information.

Just like this great philosopher, Dr. Urquhart, he asked, "Who is the witness?" But in the Vedic scriptures we find that God Himself is witness. Not only that—there are other witnesses. That is stated here. It is said here, the Yamadūtas said: the first witness is the sun, sūrya. How can you conceal yourself from the vigilance of the sun? That you cannot.

So sūrya. Then agni—fire is also witness. Sūrya, agni, kham—the sky is witness. How you can hide yourself from the sky? Sūrya, agni, kham, marut—the air is witness. Deva, soma—the soma, the moon, is also witness. You can say, "All right, the sun is witness. At night I shall steal." But the moon is witness—soma.

Sandhyā—sandhyā, the, I mean to say, the junction between day and night. That is called ārāt(?). In the morning prātaḥ-sandhya, dvitīya-sandhyā, tri-sandhyā. According to Vedic injunction we have got three junctions: one in the morning, praśamaḥ-sandhyā; therefore we have to chant the Gāyatrī mantra tri-sandhyā, thrice—in the morning, at noon and in the evening. Sandhyā ahanī diśaḥ. And all directions—there are ten directions—they are also witness.

Then (indistinct Sanskrit) This is a quotation from Manu-saṁhitā. But these personalities, they can understand the psychological activities of everyone. Just like in modern science also, they have developed mind study: one can say what you are thinking—practical psychology. There is a science, it was developed. So the same thing in higher order, in higher personalities: they can understand what you are thinking, what you are feeling, what you are willing. They can understand.

So ahanī ahasya atrisya kaṁ udakam(?). Kam means water. These are all witnesses, kam, udakam, and kuḥ pṛthi(?)—pṛthi means the earth. So how can you hide yourself? You have to walk on the earth, you have to use water, the sky is above you, the sun is there, the moon is there and the air is passing. All of them are witnessing what you are doing. Either pious or impious activities—whatever you are doing—that is being witnessed and it is recorded. Just like in..., I think in Los Angeles I have seen, in Beverly quarters, that the radar information?

Devotee: Radar.

Prabhupāda: Hah? Yes. Whether you are driving your car properly or not. There is no question of constable standing; the radar machine is recording, and your number is being noted down: whether you are driving properly.

So if it is possible in this material world by the arrangement of the government that without any man the government can witness your activities, how it is not possible by God to understand or witness everything, whatever you are doing? This is a quite reasonable thing. It is a question of the machine. How... There are so many..., in factories also, there are so many machines. They can record even without the presence of the superintendent or...

So here in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam the Yamadūtas says that "You cannot act against the stringent laws of God." That is not possible. Then you will be punished, adharma. By nature, suppose you take salt, but you cannot take salt more than you require. If you take more salt, the foodstuff will be spoiled, and if you take less salt it will be not tasteful. Therefore the conclusion is that you have to take salt as much as you require. Not that because the ocean is there—salt—you want to take the whole salt. That is not possible.

Similarly, everything is there for your necessities, eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). By God's arrangement everything is there in full. Pūrṇam ādāya (Īśo Invocation): this is full. There is no question of scarcity. It is we, we the miscreants, we have created this anomaly that somewhere we find enough and somewhere there is no grain or no food. That is our creation. This is not God's creation.

According to Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam everything created by God is to be enjoyed by the living entity according to his quota. He cannot take more, cannot take less. But according to God's creation everything is complete—there is no scarcity. My Guru Mahārāja used to say that "There is no scarcity in this world. Simply one scarcity is there—Kṛṣṇa consciousness." That is the only scarcity. Otherwise, by God's arrangement everything is in full; there is no scarcity.

If people understand this philosophy, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then everything will be adjusted. Nobody will feel scarcity. In former... Formerly, in Bhāgavata we see that people were not distressed even by severe cold or scorching heat. They were so much satisfied, because they were Kṛṣṇa conscious. You cannot adjust things. You are thinking that by our own endeavor, by advancement of our so-called science, we shall be able to bring peace and prosperity in this world. That is not possible. If you violate God's law, then it is not possible.

sūryo 'gniḥ khaṁ marud devaḥ
somaḥ sandhyā ahanī diśaḥ
kaṁ kuḥ svayaṁ dharma iti
hy ete daihyasya sākṣiṇaḥ
(SB 6.1.42)

Now here it is especially, svayaṁ dharma, the Yamarāja. The question was that how Yamarāja can understand that this man is sinful and this man is not sinful. So in answer to that question the assistants of the Yamarāja replied that Dharma, Dharmarāja, (indistinct) Yama, so he is also appointed.

(break) ...see how the impious activities are going on, so they have mentioned so many elements who are also witness, and Yamarāja himself, he knows everyone, how he is acting impiously. Therefore after his death he is called for explanation or for punishment.

etair adharmo vijñātaḥ
sthānaṁ daṇḍasya yujyate
sarve karmānurodhena
daṇḍam arhanti kāriṇaḥ
(SB 6.1.43)

So in this way: etair adharmo vijñāta. This is Yamarāja. He knows how one is acting impiously, so after his death he is awarded a particular place and particular body according to his own work. That is also stated in another chapter, Third Canto in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye (SB 3.31.1): after the death, one is awarded a particular type of body. That is... We know that we are changing our bodies every day, every moment, growing. It is known as growing, but actually we are changing our bodies.

That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:

dehino 'smin yathā dehe
kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā
tathā dehāntara-prāptir
(BG 2.13)

Dehāntara, another; accepting another body. It is a fact. One can understand from this present life that we are accepting a different body every moment. This growing means I am leaving the old body and I am accepting a new body. And after some years we can see this child has grown to youthhood. That means he has changed so many bodies in that course. Similarly, when we find this body no more inhabitable, we have to give up this body and accept another body as we change our dress. That is the description in the Bhagavad-gītā.

So that change of body is going on. And how this ultimate change is done? That is daiva-netreṇa. Daiva-netreṇa: under the supervision of higher authorities, daiva. Daiva means higher authorities. As we are suffering ādhidaivika... Some sufferings are ādhibhautika, adhyātmika and ādhidaivika.

Ādhyātmika is we can perceive that "I am not feeling well today. My body is suffering" or "My mind is suffering." That is ādhyātmika. Ādhibhautika, suffering offered by another living entity, that is ādhibhautika. And there are sufferings ādhidaivika, which is beyond our control—just like earthquakes, famine, extreme heat, extreme cold. We cannot adjust; we have to suffer.

Of course, this is answered in the Bhagavad-gītā: mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ (BG 2.14). You cannot control that. You have to tolerate: tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata. It is beyond your control. Tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata. So similarly, daiva-netreṇa. According to your work—pious or impious—you will be offered a type of body, daiva-netreṇa, by superior authorities. You cannot say that "No, sir, I don't want this body." You have to accept, daiva-netreṇa.

So here it is also, the Yamadūta says, etair adharmo vijñātaḥ (SB 6.1.43). Adharma... Because we have to execute properly as good citizens. Good citizen means law-abiding citizen. And as soon as you break law, you become criminal, subjected to punishment. This is our experience; we have seen. So why not in God's kingdom? That is atheism. They do not believe in God. They say, "I am God," because if he becomes God then he is not subjected to this punishment for violating the laws.

That is going on. Big, big sannyāsīs, they are lecturing, "Why you are thinking of God? You are God. There is no sin." They think, "Oh, there is no sin. Let me do whatever I like." This is going on, this atheistic philosophy. But you may say like that, (chuckles) but the God's law is so strong that even an atheist like Hiraṇyakaśipu, he was also defeated. He made arrangement in such a way that he would never die, but still he had to die.

You cannot violate God. That is not... Daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). The stringent laws of nature, or God, they are so strong that you cannot violate. It is not possible. As soon as you violate, you will be punished. As soon as you... Just like here, if you kill somebody—murder—you will be killed. Similarly, so many animals which you are killing, you have to be killed so many times. That you do not know, but it is true. Like God's law: life for life.

There are many Purāṇa stories like that. One king, he sacrificed so many animals, and when he was entering into the heavenly kingdom, so many swords were hanging. "What is this?" "You have to be killed by this each one of these swords, because you have killed so many animals."

So God's law is so minute and so clear and acute that nobody can violate.

etair adharmo vijñātaḥ
sthānaṁ daṇḍasya yujyate
(SB 6.1.43)

One becomes subjected to particular place. Why one is placed in certain nice place and one is placed in most, I mean to say, abominable place? But still, due to forgetfulness... Just like in northern regions the..., always it is covered by ice. What is that, inhabitants? Esk...?

Devotees: Eskimos.

Prabhupāda: Eskimos. You cannot go and live there; you will be surprised how these people are living here. But they are happy. They are happy. That is māyā. (laughter) Prakṣepātmikā-śakti: he is living in a hellish condition, but he is thinking, "Oh, I am very happy." This is māyā. This is called māyā—prakṣepātmikā-śakti, āvaraṇātmikā-śakti: by the illusion he is thinking.

In London also, (laughing) in a television, they asked for a distinction of hell and heaven, so I said, "Your London is hell. It is always covered with snow and darkness, so in comparison to India it is hell." So that was published in the papers. And actually, in this world also, there are many places, it is simply hellish to live, but still people are satisfied. In Bombay I have seen in a place, it is so dark that during, I mean to say, daytime, full lights, and he is living in that corner with a kerosene lamp, it is so dark. But he is still happy there. You see?

So that place, why one is...? They say that God is unjust—the atheists—that He has made one man rich and one man poor. Even these questions are raised by educated circle, "Why God is so un..., injust?" But God is not injust. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). Just like when a person is put into the prison, you cannot say that the government is unkind or injust. No. He has made his place like that. He has committed.

When a judge gives judgment that "This man should be hanged immediately," so it is not judge's business that he discriminates between one man with another, and he rewards one man, that "All right, you get this decree. You can acquire that one crore of rupees," and another man, "You are condemned; you have to be killed." It is not the discrimination of the judge—it is the law. You have put yourself into that law, and you have to suffer or enjoy.

Therefore it is said here,

etair adharmo vijñātaḥ
sthānaṁ daṇḍasya yujyate
(SB 6.1.43)

By witnessing your activities you will be awarded a particular place to live, and you will be punished in a particular way. And māyā will help you, that although you are punished, you will think that "I am very happy." This is māyā's āvaraṇātmikā-śakti.

sarve karmānurodhena
daṇḍam arhanti kāriṇaḥ
(SB 6.1.43)

Now it is very nice conclusion by the Yamarāja, that everyone who is engaged in fruitive activities, they are punishable. They are punishable. Suppose you are very big businessman, very industrially..., but you are karmī—you want to enjoy the fruit. Karmī means one works very hard and tries to enjoy the fruit, he is a karmī.

Karmī... Karma-yoga and karma is different. Karmī means one who wants to enjoy for his personal. Suppose you are doing some business and you are earning ten lakhs of rupees every month. So you are thinking that "I have earned this money with the dint of my labor. I shall enjoy." That is karmī; that is karma. So here it is said that,

sarve karmānurodhena
daṇḍam arhanti kāriṇaḥ
(SB 6.1.43)

Anyone who is a karmī, he is subjected to all these punishments. Anyone.

So Śrīdhara Svāmī says: ...sarva, everyone. Sarva means everyone. So, ... It is not that you will be able to act piously always. It is not possible, because guṇa-saṅgosti: you have to work under the influence of the three modes of material nature. Even if you try to remain pious, you will not be at this position. The circumstances is so implicated that you cannot.

Therefore we see sometimes in this material..., a pious man, he sometimes also commits the greatest type of sins, because the influence of these three guṇas, these qualities, they are acting. Bhagavad-gītā says that yajñārthāt karma anyatra karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). Simply for satisfaction of the Supreme Personal Yajñā, Viṣṇu, if you act any way you will be bound up by the reaction. You will be bound up by the reaction.

So karmīs..., so long we remain a karmī, you are punishable. Therefore according to karma-kāṇḍa-vicāra there is five kinds of yajñas, pañca-yajña, and every householder has to do that every morning. Pañca-sūnā. Pañca-sūnā, sūnā means violence, hiṁsā. Pañca-sūnā. When you take water there are so many small creatures, they are killed.

When we, I mean to say, rub the mortar and pestle for spices, there are so many germs, they are also killed. When you ignite fire there are so many small germs, they are killed. When you walk on the street there are so many small ants you will kill. So even if you think that "I shall not kill," but your activities in this material world will oblige you to kill animal, subjected to punishment.

Therefore every karmī is punishable. Therefore we have to act for Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise there is no escape. Daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī (BG 7.14): "You have killed? Oh, you have to suffer." So "I did not know, Sir." That doesn't matter. Just like in ordinary law, if you have killed somebody unconsciously or something, you have to be punished.

So here it is said,

sambhavanti hi bhadrāṇi
viparītāni cānaghāḥ
kāriṇāṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sti
dehavān na hy akarma-kṛt
(SB 6.1.44)

But that means if you say that "I'll not work," oh, that is also not possible. Anyone who has got this body, he has to work. And because you have to work, you have to commit sins. And because you are committing sins, you have to suffer. This is your position.

Therefore there is no alternative than to become... Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁśaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). There is no alternative for you. So this is the śāstric conclusion.

Thank you very much. (devotees offer obeisances)

It is not a sentiment, that "These people are chanting in Kṛṣṇa consciousness"; it is obligatory. If you don't become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then you are subject to punishment. That's all.

(pause) (devotees chanting japa) Yes?

Devotee: Who is Śrīdhara Svāmī, you quoted?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Devotee: Śrīdhara Svāmī?

Prabhupāda: Oh, this question is not good for you. You are student in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and you do not know Śrīdhara Svāmī? The commenter, the commentator of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. In our book, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, we have mentioned several times Śrīdhara Svāmī. Śrīdhara Svāmī is one of the ācāryas. He happens to be in the Viṣṇu Svāmī sampradāya, the party, the devotees who are coming from Rudra.

There are four sampradāyas, devotees: Brahmā-sampradāya, Lakṣmī-sam..., Śrī-sampradāya, Rudra-sampradāya and Kumāra-sampradāya. They are mahājanas. Svayambhūr nāradaḥ... Svayambhūr nāradaḥ śambhuḥ (SB 6.3.20). Svayambhū is Brahmā; from him one disciplic succession is coming. We belong to that disciplic succession. And there is another disciplic succession from Lord Śiva, Śambhu. There is another disciplic succession from Lakṣmī, the goddess of fortune, and another disciplic succession from the Kumāras, cātur-sanā, Kumāras.

So these sampradāya are bona fide sampradāyas. Sampradāya-vihīnā ye. If anyone is not within these four sampradāyas, then his spiritual activities are not bona fide. Sampradāya-vihīnā ye mantrās te niṣphalā matāḥ (Padma Purāṇa). Niṣphalā—he is simply wasting his time. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186): you have to follow the original ācāryas, mahājanas, then you shall be on the right path; otherwise you are mislead.

So Śrīdhara Svāmī belongs to the Śambhu, from Lord Śiva, the party. The devotees... As there are political parties, they are, all the parties, they are meant for national improvement, similarly, these four parties, although they are called parties, but their aim is how to satisfy Viṣṇu.

(pause) Hmm.What is that question? Yes.

Revatīnandana: Are any of the other sampradāyas still coming down by disciplic succession?

Prabhupāda: Yes. The Rāmānuja-sampradāya, the Mādhava-sampradāya, the Viṣṇu Svāmī sampradāya, Nimbārka-sampradāya, still they are going on.

Devotee: Prabhupāda, in the list of witnesses, you said one witness is the ten directions.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Devotee: What are the ten directions?

Prabhupāda: The four sides, four corners—eight—up and down. Ten direction. Where you will go? (laughter) You may think that "I shall pickpocket in the airplane. I'm going this way; I'm not under the laws." No. It is not possible.

Haṁsadūta: That's what we mean when we say everything is person.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Haṁsadūta: What you said, that everything is person.

Prabhupāda: Everything is person.

Haṁsadūta: Everywhere there is some person who watches.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Another was Yamarāja. He is a great personality. He can know everyone. Therefore he has been posted, Yamarāja: "Bring that man. He committed such-and-such."

Devotee (2): Then he was sent. He was Vidura.

Prabhupāda: Hah?

Devotee (2): Vidura.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Sometimes he also commits mistakes, because he is a jīva. He did not commit mistakes, but he punished, overpunished. Yes. One ṛṣi, in his childhood he pierced an ant with some thorn, and therefore he was punished later on that false charge. So therefore he retaliated Yamarāja, that,

"For my this childhood crime you wanted to punish me in this way. So you are cruel. So I punish you that you have to take birth in a śūdra family." And that is Vidura. So sometimes this retaliation takes place. He was not ordinary; he was punished. He could punish Yamarāja. So this error of judgment is possible in everywhere. Everywhere, error of judgment.

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: In this case, and just like when all the demigods were ordered to appear in the Yadu dynasty before Kṛṣṇa appeared, one question I had is how is it that..., that they appeared in the Yadu dynasty? Did they give up their bodies—the material bodies that they had—to take birth in the Yadu dynasty?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: They gave up those bodies?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: And then...

Prabhupāda: Devotee, when he appears, just like God appears, similarly devotee also appears. He is not under the condition of the material laws, although he appears. But others see that he has appeared like ordinary man.

Devotee (2): There are also some stories in Kṛṣṇa book. I forget the name of the demigod, but one snake, Kṛṣṇa put His foot on his head, and the demigod resumed his body. Just like Nālakuvera and Maṇigrīva, they took the bodies of trees. They gave up the bodies...

Prabhupāda: Yes. They were punished.

Devotee (2): Then they took on those bodies again, the same bodies. Is that so?

Prabhupāda: Yes. But that means punishment is there even in the higher planets where demigods are there, what to speak of these lower planets. The only safest way is chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yes.

Revatīnandana: If the demigods leave their posts at that time to appear here, then how do the functions of the universe go on while they are appearing here?

Prabhupāda: How our function is going on in USA? You are here. You are the president of which center?

Revatīnandana: Oh, Santa Barbara.

Prabhupāda: Then how Santa Barbara is going on?

Revatīnandana: I was replaced.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is replaced. (laughter) There is a Bengali word: raja muli raja sharma(?). Just like when Gandhi and Nehru was living, they were always thinking that "Without me, whole India will be spoiled." They never tried to retire, you see, unless they were killed. You see? This is māyā. Everyone thinks, "Oh, without me everything will be spoiled." (laughter)

So many kings and Nehrus and Gandhis came and gone, and everything is going on. And it will go on. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ: everything is being done by the nature's laws. Only the rascals and fools, they think, "I am this (indistinct). I am doing this. Without me everything will be spoiled." This is rascaldom.

prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni
guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ
(BG 3.27)

Those who are trying to be rascals, under the false ego they think, "Without me, everything is spoiled." That is māyā.

Therefore we do not want to retire from family life. But according to Vedic rituals, as soon as fifty years you have passed, you must leave. There is no question of whether your all business is finished or not—you must leave. The remainder portion of life should be completely engaged in God's service; otherwise you spoil your life. Therefore there are four divisions: brahmācārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. Nobody can remain gṛhastha for all the life. That is Vedic arrangement. Gṛhastha life is a concession for sense gratification, that's all.

Otherwise, just like the Kumāras: from the very birth they remained brahmācārī. Their father, Brahmā, ordered that "You create. We want population." They refused: "My dear father, we are not going to marry. We shall remain brahmācārī." Brahmā became angry, and his eyes became red, and therefore Lord Śiva came out—Rudra—and he created thousands of demons. Brahmā said, "Please stop your creation. No more." (chuckles)

So these things are going on. (pause) So you can distribute this prasāda, little.

(devotees chanting japa)

(break) ...Partition. They have got their own ideas, and people suffer. The Partition was..., this is due to politicians, maybe Nehru, Gandhi or Jinnah—but the sufferings are to the common man. You see? I have seen in Calcutta in 1947, I think, there was riots. So many innocent people were killed. So many, unnecessarily killed. And everywhere—not only there. In Europe, America also, I have got so many historical evidences that the politicians, they fight on their ideological platform, and the common people suffer.

Just like in our country the politicians, they are simply engaged, "How to occupy the post?" So where is the time for them to think of the poor people, how they will be happy? They are simply thinking, "How I shall occupy that post? How shall I occupy that post?" Naturally, where is the time for them for thinking that "How these poor people will be saved?"

Everyone who comes to the higher post tries to accumulate some money. This is going on. And in Bhagavata it is said, mlecchā rājanya-rūpiṇaḥ bhakṣayiṣyanti prajās te (SB 12.1.40). Actually they are not kṣatriyas. This ruling is entrusted to the trained-up kṣatriyas, but now at this present moment the mlecchas—mlecchas means those who are not following strictly the Vedic principles—they will take possession of the political seats, and in the form of government men they will simply devour the citizens, that's all.

This is the symptoms of Kali-yuga as stated in the Bhāgavatam: mlecchā raja..., ācchinna-dāra-draviṇā gacchanti giri-kānanam (SB 12.2.9). The people will be so much harassed by taxation and political embezzlement that they will give up their homes and go to the forests and mountains. Actually this has happened, this Pakistan-Hindustan division. So many people were unnecessarily harassed. They left their homes—they were so much embarrassed. Still in Calcutta you will find so many people are lying on the station from East Bengal—they have no home. They have left their home. Why this? This is due to these politicians. Why they agreed for partition? It is a mistake of the politicians.

Everywhere you will find—in Europe also—three miles after, one state. You have to take visa, permit. Why? Human beings, they are free, and formerly we get history from China, from other countries—they were coming in India; Indian people also going. There are evidences. There was no such passport and visa. And now, because the people are advancing the politics... What is that state, Luxemburg? It is a city, and it has become a state. If you want to enter that Luxemburg, you have to take visa, permit. So then house to house there will be state, later on.

Revatīnandana: There is one state in Italy that is a house.

Prabhupāda: That is a house?

Revatīnandana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Just see. (laughter)

Revatīnandana: (indistinct) small house in Italy.

Prabhupāda: Where is that?

Devotee (3): (indistinct)

Indian man: (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: You also killed thousands of men during this go-(indistinct) agitation. Did you not? Your government. Therefore I say the politicians, not this or that.

Indian man: But...

Prabhupāda: You killed, but you killed very mildly, that's all. You killed very mildly. Do you know that? When there was this cow protection agitation, so many people were killed in Delhi?

Indian man: I know a sādhu... Why sādhu was going (indistinct)?

Prabhupāda: Therefore why these people will disturb? The "why" is always there. But you are also expert in killing in that way. That is my point. So whenever there will be politicians, these anomalies will be there—either Englishman or Hindustani or anyone. That anomalies will be there. You cannot distinguish that this anomaly is better that that anomaly; otherwise it is (indistinct).

Indian man: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No. No. I don't say that. I blame every politician. You are distinguishing that our Nehru politician is better than English politician. That is your point.

Indian man: No.

Prabhupāda: Then it is..., there is no quarrel. Every politician...

Indian man: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: So yes, that's a fact. There are so many rascals. (laughter) Yes, one gentleman, he is one statistics department, one Mr. Bar—he was coming to me—he said, "I am speaking this." It was sometime in 1950 or '51. He went to the village to take statistics. So the villagers enquired from him, "Bābājī, (Hindi)." They are thinking of voting again for the Englishmen so that they may come and rule over. They were so much disgusted, in 1950.

So these elements are there. Therefore the only panacea is that everyone should become Kṛṣṇa conscious, and everything will be nice. Otherwise it is not possible. Of course, that is not possible also. (laughter) Hah?

Indian man: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: So try as much as possible to turn people Kṛṣṇa conscious, then there will be happiness. Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tara sahasrasaḥ (Cāṇakya Paṇḍita): "If you can create one moon, it is better than millions of stars." You see? So try to create at least one Kṛṣṇa conscious person, then there is hope of at least peace, relief, personally. But he can do many things, both, a Kṛṣṇa conscious person.

(pause) So let us disperse. (break)

Woman devotee: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Why do you ask such a question?

Woman devotee: Because he told me that.

Prabhupāda: Therefore he becomes authority.

Woman devotee: Is it bona fide?

Prabhupāda: Then why you are asking? (laughter)

Woman devotee: Because he is your student, and I am...

Prabhupāda: You are also my student.

Woman devotee: So I shouldn't ask?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Student, of course you must advance—that is another thing. But student is student. That's all right. What is your question? Touching the beads?

Woman devotee: I was told that one person should not touch his spiritual master's japa beads.

Prabhupāda: Why? There is no such rule.

Woman devotee: Thank you. (end)