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701221 - Conversation B - Surat

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

701221LE-SURAT - December 21, 1970 - 38:32 Minutes

Prabhupāda: So your father has got substance. And why the ultimate Godhead is not a person? What is this philosophy? If God is father, He must be person. How you can think of imperson? Eh?

Devotee (1): Ah . . .

Prabhupāda: He is impuzzled.

Devotee (1): I am puzzled.

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Just try to understand this philosophy. If when I see practically my father has got head, his father has got head, his father has got head, head, head, head . . . go on. And the ultimate father, why he has no head? What this poor person, gentleman, has done that he has no head? (laughter) You see?

This is . . . this nonsense theory is going on that, "God has no head. God has no legs. God has no hand." Imperson means He has no head, no leg, no . . . that means . . . and somebody says, "He is dead," and "void."

Revatinandana: They're trying to kill Kṛṣṇa. They're trying to kill Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: That's all. That is their business. Rākṣasa, asura, miscreants, rogues, fools, rascal—that is their business. Envious. Because they are . . . if I say that, "You have no eyes," that means indirectly I say that, "You are blind." If I say that, "You have no leg," indirectly I say: "You are lame." In this way, when I deny your senses, that means I am calling God by ill names that, "You are blind. You are lame. You are headless. You are rascal," like that. And that is their prayer. Calling God by ill names, that is their prayer. What do you think, Girirāja?

Girirāja: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Yes. When you say: "O my Lord, You have no leg, You have no hand, You have no eyes," that means "You are blind, You are lame, You are headless," (laughter) "You have no sense"—"You are nonsense." So this is prayer. This is their prayer. So we have to fight vigorously these rascal impersonalists and voidists. When I was talking, somebody left the meeting in the morning. Yes. That means he could not tolerate (laughs) all these designations—"rascal," "miscreants," "lowest of the mankind." Yes.

Devotee (2): In this mantra of Śrī Upaniṣad, Mantra Twelve:

andhaṁ tamaḥ praviśanti
ye 'sambhūtim upāsate
tato bhūya iva te tamo
ya u sambhūtyāṁ ratāḥ
(ISO 12)

It says: "Those engaged in worship of the demigods enter the darkest region of ignorance, and still more do the worshipers of the Absolute." But this means that the impersonalists, "those who are worshiping Absolute"?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (2): Then why is it seen that they are making spiritual advancement? Why they become . . .

Prabhupāda: No, they don't make any spiritual advancement. They come down. Don't you see this impersonalist, Vivekananda? He took sannyāsa, he came to hospital-making, came back. They are not advancing. They are coming back, falling down. While they have no engagement in devotional service, they say: "Oh, why you are finding God anywhere? Here is God, daridra-nārāyaṇa, these poor men." That's it. That is not advancement. They are coming down. Now, they come down and they defame Nārāyaṇa, that "Nārāyaṇa has become daridra." He has found Nārāyaṇa is daridra.

Revatīnandana: What is that word?

Prabhupāda: Daridra. Daridra means poor.

Revatīnandana: Poor.

Prabhupāda: Poor. Daridra-nārāyaṇa. This is manufactured word by Vivekananda. They are so proud that, "When a beggar comes at your door, you should treat him as Nārāyaṇa, daridra." These are simply high-sounding words. What they are doing actually for the daridras?

Revatīnandana: So that is service in the mode of ignorance.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Revatīnandana: That is service in the mode of ignorance, according to Bhagavad-gītā?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. They cannot serve. All these welfare activities of the world, what they are serving? That I explained this morning. They are trying to give help to the poor, but the number of poor is increasing. They are trying to give medicine or relief to the suffering patients, the patients are increasing, hospitals are increasing. But if our number of temples, Kṛṣṇa temple, increase, that is something sound. But they are increasing hospitals. What do you think? If we increase number of hospitals, does it mean that we are making progress? But they think that they are making progress. Just like in your country there is . . . welfare department? The expenditure is increasing.

Revatīnandana: Yes . . . (indistinct) . . . all the time.

Prabhupāda: That means the social structure is very bad. Otherwise, natural procedure is that everyone should be self-independent. But why State has to give them help? That's not good. You may be . . . just like a son may be very rich man's son, but if the father provides him only, then he's a useless son. Is it not? If the father has to provide him money for his maintenance, then that son is useless son. That is not a good certificate. Although you may be very much proud that "I am maintaining my so many sons," why you should maintain? Let them be self-supported.

Devotee: But what can the State do? Should the State just leave the people alone?

Prabhupāda: No. They should make the citizens so nicely developed in their Kṛṣṇa consciousness that they should be self-dependent, self-satisfied. That is the ideal of civilization.

Devotee: But America is so far from that.

Prabhupāda: Therefore it is not advancement, although they are very much proud of advancement. This is not sign of advancement. According to Bhagavad-gītā it is said, yasmin sthite guruṇāpi duḥkhena na vicālyate (BG 6.22): "If one is situated in such a position that even in the greatest, gravest type of dangerous position he is not agitated—he is not agitated—that is the real happiness." Yasmin sthite guruṇāpi duḥkhena na vicālyate. These are the words, yasmin sthite: "Situated in such a position that although he is facing greatest danger, he is not agitated."

There is one instance. Not very long ago, say, about two hundred years ago, there was a big zamindar. He was known as king in Krishnanagar. So he was charitably disposed. He went to a Brahmin and asked him—he was a great learned scholar—"Can I help you anyway?" And the paṇḍita replied: "No. I don't require your help. I am quite satisfied." "How you are satisfied?" "Oh, my these students, they bring some rice. So my wife boils that, and I have got this tamarind tree. I take some leaves and prepare some juice out of it. That is sufficient." So he was satisfied. That's all. But he was a learned scholar. Similarly, Cāṇakya Paṇḍita . . . you have perhaps heard. He was the greatest politician. He was prime minister of India. He was living in a cottage and just giving instruction.

So that is India's Vedic civilization. Everyone is satisfied, self-sufficient. And now in your country, oh, you have to attend office fifty miles off. And because you have to take this trouble, Kṛṣṇa has provided with car. You are thinking, "I am advanced." You don't think that, "Although I have got car, I have to go fifty miles off from my home." This is illusion. You are thinking that "I am advanced. I am happy. I have got this car."

(laughter) This is illusion. Yes. Gaurasundara was going, to maintain, and he drives fifty miles off, Honolulu. The poor fellow had to rise early in the morning. You see? And so much haste. Therefore: "Gaurasundara, you better give up this job. Just depend on Kṛṣṇa." So he has given up. What is this? Fifty miles going by motorcycle or motorcar, how much tedious it is.

But still, they are satisfied that, "We are advanced." And because they have many cars, therefore in your country always there is that (makes traffic noise), "sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh," wherever I go. (laughter)

Revatīnandana: And more problems come after that. The air becomes . . .

Prabhupāda: Simply, wherever you go, (makes traffic noise) "sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh," and "gonh, gonh, gonh, gonh, gonh." Up in the sky, "gonh, gonh, gonh, gonh," and in the street, "sonh, sonh . . ." And then, when digging, "gut-gut-gut-gut-gut-gut-gut-gut-gut!" (laughter) Is it not? Don't you feel botheration? But they are thinking, "Oh, America is very much advanced in machine." And when there is that garbage tank? "Ghon-ghon-ghon-ghon-ghon-ghon-ghon-ghon-ghon!" (laughter) So many sounds are going on, always. Eh?

Of course, you have got very nice city, nice roads everywhere. But this trouble . . . you have created so many troubles. And there are news that one lady was patient, she became mad for the sounds. And I think they are thinking very seriously how to stop all these sounds. Is it not?

Haṁsadūta: Especially they have these airplanes now.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Haṁsadūta: They make such a tremendous sound that they break windows and everything else.

Prabhupāda: Now we are in . . . (indistinct) . . . in Bombay. As soon as the aeroplane would come on top of the house it is just like thunderbolt. Yes. At least, I was feeling like that. Vajrapa. You see? So this is called illusion. We are creating a civilization which is so much painful, but we are thinking that we are advanced. This is illusion. We are creating simply problem, and still, we are thinking that we are advanced.

And Bhāgavata says that there is no problem.

tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido
na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adhaḥ
(SB 1.5.18)

You simply try for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And then how I shall live? That, the answer, is tal labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukham. Just like you don't aspire for miseries, but it comes upon you, it is forced upon you, similarly, happiness also will be forced upon you, whatever you are destined to receive. So don't try for happiness or discarding distress. That will go on. You simply try for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which, without your trying, it will never be fulfilled. You have to voluntarily try for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, revive it.

Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). You do it—because you have to do it. Kṛṣṇa can force you to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. But He doesn't do that. He doesn't interfere with your independence. He says, "Do it." Therefore you have to try for it, not for other things. Other things, already there are. For the birds and beasts there is no problem for eating. Why your problem should be?

Just like a prisoner, he has no problem for eating. The government supplies. He has only problem that he should not be criminal. That is his problem. He should try for that, "No more I shall become a criminal." That is the real activity. But he thinks . . . if in the prison house you say: "What shall I eat?" no, eating is already there.

Even you are a prisoner, the government has supplied his eating. Similarly, God has supplied everyone, cats and dogs, for eating. Why not for you? You have created your own problem. Real problem is how to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adhaḥ (SB 1.5.18). Kṛṣṇa consciousness is that . . .

Devotee: These problems will take care of themselves if people develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: Then there is no need to deal with the problem, then.

Prabhupāda: There is no problem. At least we Kṛṣṇa conscious people, we have no problem for eating. Is it? Is there any problem?

Haṁsadūta: There's problem, eating too much!

Prabhupāda: (laughs) This is practical. If you have any problem, you join us. You will have no problem for eating. That I can guarantee you. Wherever you go, you shall eat sumptuously. Yes.

Devotee (3): Is it all right to finish rounds in the temple when there's nothing to do?

Prabhupāda: No.

Devotee (3): This afternoon.

Prabhupāda: Not afternoon. You have to do it in the morning when there is nothing.

Guest (1): Hare Kṛṣṇa!

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa thik lagta hain? Jachta hain thik? (Do you find Hare Kṛṣṇa okay? Does it suit you?) Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Devotee (4): He danced on saṅkīrtana today.

Prabhupāda: Perhaps in other engagement he cannot dance. Actually there is no problem. Why there should be problem? There are 8,400,000 species of life. Out of that, human being are 400 . . . out of that, 80%, they are uncivilized. So all these living entities have no problem for eating. This 20% or 15% people who are called as civilized, they have problem. They have created problem.

At least in India, say, hundred years before, there was no problem for eating, even for the śūdra class or any . . . no, there was no . . . the society was so made, there was no problem. Why fifty years? In 1933 or '36 in Vṛndāvana somebody wanted milk, some pilgrimage amongst ourselves. So went to a house. So, "Can you supply us some milk?" "Ah, how much you want?"

So it was about ten pounds. So she supplied immediately, one woman, and when she was offered price, "Oh, why shall I take a price for ten or twenty pounds of milk? Oh, you can take it." That is my practical experience. Milk was so freely available. So simply we are creating problems by godless civilization. That is a fact.

Haṁsadūta: Once you said we are making solutions to self-created problems, and we think it's advancement.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Haṁsadūta: We've created a big city, and then make so many solutions.

Prabhupāda: Just like we just take example from your country. You are constructing so many highways, freeways. Still, there is problem. Still there is, even in the highways, sometimes blocked.

Aiye . . . (Please come . . . ) Bathiye . . . (Please sit . . .) Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido (SB 1.5.18) . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . London main . . . (indistinct) . . . (In London . . . (indistinct) . . .) We do not dissuade persons to stop work. No. That is not our . . . you do your work, but be Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is it. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna was a fighter. Kṛṣṇa never stopped him from his occupation, but he was taught Kṛṣṇa conscious even in the battlefield. Aiye . . . (Please come) . . . (indistinct Hindi) (break) Aiye. Aiye. (Please come. Please come.) . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . you want to see?

Guest (2): Yes, please.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Where is that book?

Haṁsadūta: Here, Bhagavad-gītā As It Is.

Prabhupāda: Kiñcid adhīta. (break) . . . a thousand pages of this size. This is four hundred pages, but that Gītā will be thousand pages. But we shall use very thin paper. Yes.

Guest (2): Is it available here?

Prabhupāda: It is available after some day, some time.

Guest (2): Where?

Prabhupāda: Just here in our center in India.

Guest (2): Is this same?

Prabhupāda: No, it is Nectar of Devotion.

(aside) Where are our other books?

Haṁsadūta: In my suitcase. Shall I bring them?

Prabhupāda: Yes, bring. (break) Kṛṣṇa, canvassing Himself, says . . .

Guest (2): Hmm?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, Himself canvassing, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66): "Give up everything. Just surrender unto Me." How many do it? So we are canvassing on behalf of Kṛṣṇa. He personally said, practically. So you don't expect that everyone will be Kṛṣṇa conscious. It is very difficult.

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu
kaścid yatati siddhaye
yatatām api siddhānāṁ
kaścid vetti māṁ tattvataḥ
(BG 7.3)

So Kṛṣṇa consciousness is very difficult, but it is the mercy of Lord Caitanya that through this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement they are coming so soon. Otherwise, the subject matter is very difficult. (pause) So many flowers?

Haṁsadūta: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So why not give everyone.

Haṁsadūta: Everyone?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (3): Do you practice meditation in your center?

Haṁsadūta: Our meditation consists of chanting the holy name of God. Or, in fact, we are always absorbed in meditating, because whatever we do, we do on behalf of Kṛṣṇa. So our mind, which is the center of our activities, is always absorbed on Kṛṣṇa.

The principle of meditation is to fix up our mind on Kṛṣṇa. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, "Always think of Me. Become My devotee. Bow down to Me. Worship Me. Give your love to Me. In this way, you will come to Me." So if we want to go to Kṛṣṇa . . .

Prabhupāda: That is the highest, topmost type of yoga.

yoginām api sarveṣāṁ
mad-gata āntarātmanā
śraddhāvān bhajate yo mam
sa me yuktatamo mataḥ
(BG 6.47)

"Anyone," Kṛṣṇa says: "who is thinking of Me always within his heart, with devotion and love, he is the topmost yogī." Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ. So this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, as soon as you chant "Kṛṣṇa" and hear it, immediately you think of. And the chanting is not done by any ordinary man.

Unless one has love and devotion for Kṛṣṇa, he cannot chant. You just study with this verse. Śraddhāvān bhajate yo mam, āntarātmanā: "Within, he is topmost." So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means we are training people to become the topmost yogīs.

Guest (3): Do they have to practice every day?

Prabhupāda: The practice is very simple. Anyone, when you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, even child joins. Even a small child, he also claps and joins. Therefore it is recommended in the śāstras:

harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma iva kevalam
kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva
(CC Adi 17.21)

In this age nobody can meditate actually. It is very difficult. Maybe one or two persons can meditate, but that is not for all. But here Kṛṣṇa conscious, the chanting, is so nice that even a child can take part. It doesn't require that he should be educated, he should be rich or he should be enlightened. No. As he is, simply if he takes part in this . . . even woman. We were chanting. There was some roaring. As soon as we begin chanting, it stopped. This is authorized. This is recommended. And this is practically being . . . now in European and American countries, four or five years back . . .

Guest (3): Chanting is mental concentration, is it?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Chanting and hearing, locked up. Mind is locked up. And because the Kṛṣṇa vibration is locked up, then Kṛṣṇa is locked up, because there is no difference between Kṛṣṇa and His name. Absolute.

Guest (3): Absolute.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is absolute. Therefore there is no difference between Kṛṣṇa and His name, His form, His pastimes.

purnaḥ śuddho nitya-mūkto
bhinnatvān nāma-nāminoḥ
(CC Madhya 17.133)

Because nāma and the nāminaḥ, being inseparable, therefore nāma is also purna, nitya, śuddha, mukta.

Guest (3): What is the trance that . . . the meditation, trance enters. It is called . . .

Prabhupāda: Trance is . . . the actual meditation means concentrate one's mind on Viṣṇu form. That is real meditation. But now they have, the impersonalists and voidists, they have manufactured so many things, but actual meditation means . . .

Guest (3): Transcendental meditation. Trans . . .?

Prabhupāda: Transcendental meditation. The transcendental meditation means to think of Lord Viṣṇu.

Guest (3): These books will be available when?

Prabhupāda: These books are . . . now we have some custom difficulty. Books are lying in the port, but we have some custom clearance permission difficulty. Just this morning we have received news from Delhi. Now everything is complete. So now we shall get the books, say, within a fortnight.

Guest (3): Within a fortnight.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (3): In Surat . . . unable to permanently enter in Surat?

Prabhupāda: Yes. If you give us some place, we'll immediately open. Just like in Indore we had been. Somebody has given us a land. Not only land, but they are going to prepare a temple also there. And the residential quarters, we shall arrange to construct. So this land is about 400,000 square feet.

Guest (3): In Surat?

Prabhupāda: No, in Indore. Yes. So if we get place, we can start. Our program is international. And it is not difficult for us. We can start a branch even underneath a tree. We begin . . . I began in New York like that. I was chanting underneath a tree in a park. Yes.

Guest (4): . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. To the members, not to the public. It is very difficult for import-export, and sales tax, this, that, so many botheration government has created. Therefore our proposal is that . . .

(aside) Thank you.

We don't sell. No. Simply who becomes a member, we give him. You give us something, and whatever we have got, we give you. Business finished. Not finished, but business established. (laughs)

Then if you read our books, if you inquire, then we get opportunity to explain. And our distribution of books means that is indirectly propagating our mission. Yes. So therefore we have adopted this way, that only to the members.

Guest (3): Books are available . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That's all. We have printed that, "These books are not for sale in India." Yes. Because the government, I mean to say, machine is so implicated—sale tax, this tax, that tax . . .

Guest (3): I want to put in India also. They are for sale there.

Prabhupāda: Because there we have no difficulty.

Haṁsadūta: There's difficulty with the authorities.

Guest (3): Not in India. You can sell it to England.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We are selling.

Haṁsadūta: America, Japan.

Guest (3): You can sell, but not in India.

Prabhupāda: No, India, we can sell, but as soon as we sell, oh, there are so many impediments: this tax . . . we cannot . . . (indistinct) . . . that is next. When we see that we have got enough members, so this money which you pay for our membership, this will be utilized for starting press and reprinting books. Yes. But another difficulty is this class of high-class printing you cannot have in India. No. You have seen our Kṛṣṇa Book and Teachings of Lord Caitanya? Any books. Eh?

Guest (3): In Bombay you can get.

Prabhupāda: No. We took quotation from Times of India press about our this Back to Godhead magazine. They quoted two rupees, twelve annas, cost price. Now at what price we shall sell?

Guest (3): This will be very costly.

Prabhupāda: Very costly here. And even if we pay, this nature, this type of book, is very difficult to be printed in India, such nice paper, printing.

Haṁsadūta: Even on US standards, these books, although they retail for eight dollars each, they are worth at least twenty dollars. If you purchase a book of this quality . . . generally art books come like this, with many color illustrations, and they charge twenty dollars.

Prabhupāda: Here you have seen that letter? Five?

Guest (4): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Is it all right?

Guest (4): Yes.

Guest (5): I think it never comes here.

Prabhupāda: Naturally, he wrote it that, "I gave it to such and such." It will go like that. (replying to indistinct comments in background) Yes? Why . . . (indistinct) . . . should keep so much account? You do not know, whatever you take, and that is returned or not. No, whatever you take, you should see that it is returned.

Now you are asking how much. What is that? You take and you ask him. Where is that small . . . what is called? Uttarīya? You brought it back? You took from there but got it back? You got it back? You took from there one shirt, one dhotī, one uttarīya.

Devotee (5): Yesterday I did.

Prabhupāda: You got it?

Devotee (5): No, I couldn't find it.

Prabhupāda: You have to find there? After reminding me? After reminding you? Why do you not . . .? Whatever you give, you must see that it is returned. When I inquire where it is now, you say: "I shall see." There are so many clothings, how they can keep the account? You should know how much you have delivered and how much you have taken back. Who took? Find out. How it is struggle. Then? Let us prepare.

Devotee (5): Kṛṣṇa's in control. Here are some letters. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . I dictated yesterday. It is not yet sent out. (break) (end)