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690411 - Conversation - New York

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His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

690411R1-NEW YORK - April 11, 1969 - 59:56 Minutes

Prabhupāda: Oh, Mr. Murti, I'm very glad to see you. Come here in front. How do you like this movement? Huh?

Mr. Murti: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Thank you. (chuckling) So, any particular question?

Rukmiṇī: On the picture today that you gave Jadurāṇī, a picture of Śrī Viṣṇu, there is a foot on the chest. We didn't know what that was. There was a little footprint.

Prabhupāda: There are some special marks on the chest of Viṣṇu by which in Vaikuṇṭha He is known that He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise, in Vaikuṇṭha, everyone has got the same feature like Viṣṇu. Just like if President Johnson comes here as a gentleman, you'll not . . . nobody will recognize him whether he's president or not, unless he shows his special mark. Is it not? All government officers, big officers, they have got within the coat one, some mark. So far I know.

So similarly, in Vaikuṇṭha the inhabitants, they got svarūpa. Their form is exactly like Viṣṇu. There is no difference. When the Viṣṇudūta came to take Ajāmila from the hands of Yamadūta, they were four-handed, with śankha-cakra-gadā-padma, as Viṣṇu: the lotus flower, this disc, and the club and the conchshell. There is no difference in the body. Simply by that special mark, some special hair on the chest, and there is Bhṛgu, I mean to say, sole, sole, a mark of the feet of Bhṛgu Muni. So by some special marks one can recognize He is Viṣṇu.

Otherwise, from bodily features and from dress and from ornaments, there is no distinction between Viṣṇu and His devotees in Vaikuṇṭha. They're all four-handed. Svarūpa, sāyujya, sālokya, sārṣṭi. They have got equal, I mean to say, situation of prosperity, wealthy, equally . . . almost equally powerful.

So practically there is no difference between Viṣṇu and Viṣṇu-bhakta. In Kṛṣṇaloka also. Only Kṛṣṇa is little blackish. Otherwise there is no . . . in the Kṛṣṇaloka they are two-handed, and Viṣṇuloka they are four-handed. All the Vaikuṇṭhas, the residents, they are four-handed. You want four hand or two hand? (laughter) Mr. Murti? What do you want? Four hand?

Mr. Murti: Two hands more than Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In this universe only Brahmā has got four hands. Nobody within this universe. And Viṣṇu also. In this brahmāṇḍa, in this universe, there is a planet where the ocean is of milk. Here, just like salted water. There are many oceans—ocean of oil, ocean of ghee, ocean of milk.

The ocean of oil, you have got experience in this planet. Within the earth you are getting some . . . your civilization depending . . . your motorcar civilization is depending on that ocean of oil. You are getting oil and lavishly spending it. Stock is supplied by God. Your material advancement will be finished if the stock is not supplied by the Lord.

So these foolish men, they do not know. They think that, "Without God we can live." Who has created the ocean of petroleum within the earth? Is it possible for human being? (laughter)

Devotee: Someone has said that the dhotī, the dhotī that the brahmacārīs wear, is the dress that's worn in Vaikuṇṭha. Is that correct?

Prabhupāda: Just see Viṣṇu. He has no coat-pant. (chuckles) Here is Viṣṇu. Or Kṛṣṇa, He has no dress. He is also bare body. Only Rādhārāṇī is covered. In India also, still, the covering of the body is only for woman—but men, this, practically one dhotī is sufficient. Sometimes laṅgoṭa, the underwear. Laṅgoṭa, underwear. What is that? (pause)

Nanda-kiśora: Swāmī? What does Nanda-kiśora mean?

Prabhupāda: Nanda-kiśora, kiśora means a boy.

Nanda-kiśora: Boy?

Prabhupāda: The transcendental boy of Nanda Mahārāja.

Devotees: Oh!

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Madhusūdana: How is the lotus a weapon? They're all weapons. All the symbols in Viṣṇu's hand are . . . all the symbols in Viṣṇu's hand are weapons. How is the lotus a weapon?

Prabhupāda: Lotus is blessing. And that disc and club is for punishing. Viṣṇu has to see two ways, because He's the Lord. So, as it is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8).

Just like the state. State is meant for punishing the criminals and giving protection to the law-abiding citizen. Wherefrom this idea is taken? It is taken from Viṣṇu, everything, because He is the supreme maintainer. So everything is required for maintaining. So this gada, the club, and the disc is for punishing the disobedient, the demons, or those who are harassing devotees. To punish them, the viṣṇu-cakra is there.

Just like Mahārāja Ambarīṣa, he was harassed by Durvāsā Muni, and viṣṇu-cakra punished him sufficiently. Mahārāja Durvāsā . . . Mahārāja Ambarīṣa was a great king, but a great devotee at the same time. Because he was kṣatriya and householder, Durvāsā Muni, he was envious. Durvāsā Muni was brahmin and a great yogī.

So he could not tolerate that a householder king . . . king is supposed to be dealing in politics, economics. Therefore, according to social position, he is lesser than the brahmin, because they are simply engaged in the matter of transcendental advancement of life. But a devotee is above the brahmins. That is the position of devotee.

Here, the highest qualitative position is to be situated in the modes of goodness or to acquire the qualities of brahmin, in this material world. Truthfulness, controlling the senses, controlling the mind, simplicity and knowledge, faith in God—there are so many qualifications which makes a person as recognized brahmin. But a devotee, never mind whether he's brahmin or a caṇḍāla, he automatically develop all these qualities. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā (SB 5.18.12).

Anyone who has unflinching devotional faith in God, he has all the good qualities.

I've several times narrated the story of that hunter. He was animal killer, and he used to enjoy by killing the animal half. But when he became a devotee, he was not prepared to kill even an ant. Who taught him? Nobody taught him, but he was simply chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. So if you actually making progress in devotional service, you are constantly in touch with the purest.

Kṛṣṇa is the purest. Bhagavad-gītā, it is said, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhama pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12).

"You are the paraṁ brahma, Supreme Brahman." brahma . . . every living entity is brahma, but He is paraṁ brahma, the leader of the brahma. Just like the president is the first citizen of the state, similarly, Kṛṣṇa is also a living entity, but supreme living entity, just like the first citizen. So similarly, every living entity is brahma, but paraṁ brahma is one. That is Kṛṣṇa.

And therefore in the Brahma-saṁhitā it is confirmed, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ krsnaḥ (Bs. 5.1).

Kṛṣṇa is . . . everyone īśvara, more or less, controller. Lord Śiva, Lord Brahmā, Indra, Varuṇa, Vāyu, Candra, Sūrya, there are so many. They're all demigods, say, almost God. But they are not Supreme God. Supreme God is one.

Sometimes people who do not know the purpose of Vedas, they say: "The Hindus are worshiper of many gods." That is nonsense. Actually those who are followers of Vedas, they worship Kṛṣṇa, only Kṛṣṇa or Viṣṇu. Tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ (Ṛg Veda 1.22.20).

Ṛg mantra. Tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ. And in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15).

What is the purpose of Vedas? To understand Kṛṣṇa. One who does not understand Kṛṣṇa, his Vedānta philosophy is nonsense. However you may advertise that "I am Vedāntist," is a pakkā nonsense (chuckles), because he has not attained the perfection of Vedic knowledge.

The perfection of Vedic knowledge is to know Kṛṣṇa, and that is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19): after many, many births.

Jñānavān. Jñānavān means Vedāntist. Not . . . they have made it, that Vedāntist . . . Vedāntist . . . Vaiṣṇavas, they are also Vedāntist, but it has become a common sense, a common affair that the impersonalists, they are called Vedāntists. Because, due to Śaṅkarācārya's propaganda, they have made their position as Vedāntists. But common men, they do not know that the Vaiṣṇavas are the best Vedāntists.

We shall discuss Vedānta here also. Vedānta . . . in Rāmānuja-bhāṣya there is . . . perhaps you know, in your country, there is Rāmānuja-bhāṣya Vedānta. Madhvācārya, he has also written Vedānta-bhāṣya, not only Śaṅkarācārya. But because the Vaiṣṇavas, they know bhāṣyam brahma-sūtrāṇām: the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is the actual explanation of Vedānta. So therefore they take more interest in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, because that is the actual explanation of Vedānta.

Just like in the Vedānta-sūtra, the . . . what is Brahman, Absolute Truth, athāto brahma jijñāsā, the inquiry is, "What is Brahman, Absolute Truth?" The Vedānta-sūtra answers . . . the Vedānta-sūtra is made like that, questions and answers like that. So answer is janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1)

"The Absolute Truth is that from whom everything is emanating." He is the ultimate fountainhead of everything. Just now we tried to explain that the state functions protecting the good citizen and punishing the criminals. That should be the state business. Wherefrom this idea came? The law and . . . what is called? Law and order department, or what is that?

Devotee: Law and order.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Wherefrom the idea came to the human society unless it is there in the Absolute? How the idea comes? Therefore that law and order is Viṣṇu. Janmādy asya yataḥ. The idea of law and order came from Viṣṇu. How nicely explained. Janmādy asya. In two words, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Janma means creation, and ādi, ādi means first janma, then sthiti. Sthiti means staying, maintenance. And then dissolution. So three things. Yataḥ, from where these three things are happening.

That means this world is being created from that source, it is being maintained by that source, and when it is annihilated it rests in that energy, the whole energy. Pralayaṁ yānti māmikam, Bhagavad-gītā. When everything is dissolved, the energy is absorbed by the energetic. So that is Absolute Truth.

So Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam explains that Absolute Truth. Janmādy asya yata anvayād itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ svarāṭ. In the Vedānta-sūtra it is simply said that "The Absolute Truth is that which is the fountainhead of everything." Now if fountainhead of everything, then what the Absolute Truth's nature shall be like? That is explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

The first thing is that janmādy asya yataḥ. The factor, the Absolute Truth from which everything is emanating, so that emanation includes indirect and direct manifestation. What is that indirect and direct manifestation? The direct manifestation is the spiritual world, and the indirect manifestation is this material world. Indirect manifestation means it is simply a shadow of the spiritual world.

Just like in the Bible also it is said the man is made after God. So you have got two hands, one head, two leg. So the mental speculation is said that these devotees, they create God according to their own feature. Because I am two-handed, and therefore I create God with two hands, Kṛṣṇa—but actually, the fact is not that. Actually, because Kṛṣṇa has got two hand and we have got a imitation body of Kṛṣṇa, therefore we have got two hand.

Because this is imitation. That we know everything, everyone. This body will not stay. Therefore it has got janma. Janma means birth or creation at a certain period, and it stays, say, for fifty years or hundred years. Then dissolved, dissolution. Therefore it is imitation. Just like if you create a doll, clay, clay doll, very nice, beautiful girl. But it will . . . it is imitation. It is shadow of the real beautiful girl. It has . . . it is created at some time and . . .

So reality is there in the spiritual world. Therefore it is called janmādy asya yataḥ. The idea comes from there. But the impersonalists, due to their intelligence being very meager, they think that the Absolute Truth is without any variety: impersonal or void. They think that varieties are only in the material world. But actually, real varieties are there in the spiritual world. It is only reflection, as it is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, ūrdhva mūlam adhah-śākham. Adhah-śākham. Aśvatthaṁ prāhur avyayam (BG 15.1).

Aśvattha . . . this material creation, material manifestation is compared with a banyan tree whose root is upward. And that I have explained several times, how the tree can be upwards root. That means it is reflection. Just like you stand on the riverside, the tree will be reflected on the river, on the water, as obverted. That means that is reflection. As soon as we say that, "This is a tree, the root of which is up," that means it is reflection.

The Māyāvādī philosopher, they do not take account of the mathematical calculation, 380 degree. They are taking account of . . . three hundred and sixty degree, the whole circle. They are taking account only 180 degree. And other 180 degree they're making void. But actually, the whole point is 360 degree. That is geomatical calculation. If you simply know 180 degree, then the other 180 degree is unknown to you.

So real life, real variety, real beauty, real knowledge, everything in reality is there in the spiritual world. It is only reflection. Therefore Bhāgavata explains that janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ (SB 1.1.1). The Supreme Absolute Truth is cognizant, abhijñaḥ; cognizant and svarāṭ. Svarāṭ means independent. In this way, the explanation of Brahma-sūtra is given in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

Therefore Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is vaiṣṇavānāṁ priyam. Yad vaiṣṇavānāṁ priyam. Yasmin paramahaṁsam ekaṁ paraṁ jñānam jñeyate. The knowledge of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is to be understood by the paramahaṁsa, the highest perfected man, paramahaṁsa. It is not ordinary thing.

Devotee: Swāmījī, if all things here are a reflection of what is perfect in the spiritual world, then isn't . . . shouldn't hate and frustration and despair and prejudice also appear in the spiritual world?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: Does it?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: Then isn't that . . . aren't they bad?

Prabhupāda: But that frustration has no disappointment. (laughter) That is the beauty. Just like Lord Caitanya is manifesting that spiritual frustration, "O Kṛṣṇa, I could not see You." He's jumping on the sea in frustration. But that frustration is the highest perfection of love. Yes. Everything is there—but without inebriety. You are very intelligent boy. I thank you. Yes. Yes. There is frustration, but not this frustration. Yes. That frustration, I mean to say, enriches one's eagerness of love for Kṛṣṇa. Everything is there, but without inebriety. Everything is there. Yes.

Now see Viṣṇu? Of course, in Vaikuṇṭha-jagat there is no violence. But Viṣṇu is taking the symbol of violence. Otherwise, what is the meaning of this disc and club? So when He wants to be violent, He comes here as nṛsiṁha-mūrti. (laughter) And He sends some of His devotees to play violence. That is Hiraṇyakaśipu. Because there the devotees are so much in accord with Kṛṣṇa and Viṣṇu that there is no question of disagreement. But violence is when this disagreement, atheist.

Therefore sometimes a devotee is deputed in this world to play as atheist, and Kṛṣṇa comes to kill him, to teach these people that, "If you become atheist, then here is disc and club for you." But it is not possible to be displayed in the Vaikuṇṭha. But the . . . otherwise, if there is no the propensity of violence . . . just like there is sometimes mock fight. A father is fighting in mock with the small child, and he has become defeated. But there is pleasure. So ānanda-mayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12).

The Lord is joyful. So there is joy in fighting also sometimes.

So your question that everything is there, that is a fact. Everything is there. Otherwise if everything is not there, they cannot be manifested here, because it is reflection. Just like in . . . of course, this discovery is by the Vaiṣṇava, Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava. Just like the love between Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, it is called parakīya. They are not married husband and wife. But Rādhārāṇī appears to be wife of some other gentleman. But Kṛṣṇa, from childhood, They were friends. So Radhārāṇī could not forget Kṛṣṇa. She used to come to Kṛṣṇa and stand like that. That's all. And He was playing. Kiśora-Kiśorī, They were boy and girl. But there is no inebriety.

Just like here the boy and girls mix and there are so many abominable things, distressful, which is binding their material bondage. So that friendship between boy and girl is there, but without inebriety. Kṛṣṇa had so many gopīs, girlfriend, but there was no contraceptive pills. (laughter) That is the beauty. Here, the so-called love is lust. And there, that is the highest.

The same thing—obverted, perverted reflection. Just like in the original tree the topmost part has come down to the down. Similarly, in the spiritual world the highest, topmost level of love, parakīya . . . parakīya means love not by marriage life; by friendship. That is there. But there is no such inebriety. It is pure.

So perverted means the topmost thing has come down to the lowest. Here, this parakīya, loving other's wife or other's husband, is most abominable, adultery—not allowed by society, not allowed by the state. But tendency is there. Even one is married, he wants to love another's wife. Or if the girl married (s)he wants to love another husband. Why? That is there. But without inebriety. That is the beauty.

So everything is there, but here, that thing is reflected, pervertedly. Therefore misunderstood. There is so many other corollaries. You see? But you must know everything, that without being in the Absolute Truth there cannot be relative manifestation. This world is relative manifestation. So these things are not to be understood in the beginning, but as the questions came, we discussed something.

But you must know, as the Vedānta-sūtra says, janmādy asya yataḥ. Everything is emanated from that Absolute Truth. That is the fountainhead of everything. We cannot manufacture anything. It is not possible. But this is shadow and that is reality. And in the shadow . . . just like photograph. You find that everything in detail of your beautiful face in the photograph, but that is not reality. That's all.

So you'll find everything in details, all . . . or you can understand actual photograph, actual idea, actual notion of the spiritual world by scrutinizingly studying this material world. The impersonalists, they think that in the material varieties there are so many abominable inebrieties, therefore in the spiritual world all these things should be minus, void. That is their material calculation. They cannot think that in the spiritual world also there is love. Because here, in this world, the so-called love or lust is frustrated and followed by so many calamities that therefore they cannot conceive that in the spiritual world also there is love.

Their idea, in one sense, is right, that how these nonsensical things can exist in the spiritual world? Therefore they make it altogether minus. No variety. Impersonal. That is less intelligence. They cannot understand that photograph is the reflection of the actual person. There is everything in detail. A movie. Actually, the same man is laughing, walking, dress, everything, but it is all false. That they cannot understand. Therefore the Vaiṣṇavas say they are less intelligent.

The real understanding should be that if in the real person all these features are not present, how they can be reflected in the photograph? The Māyāvādī says, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. Brahman, the Absolute Truth, is real truth, and this world is mithyā. Then mithyā means it is a reflection, or shadow. Mithyā does not mean that it has no existence. The shadow is also existence. Therefore Vaiṣṇava philosophers say that mithyā means temporary.

Now you have got this body. This is temporary. That's the real understanding. And if I say it is mithyā, then if I kill you, then why I am punished? I can say, "Oh, it is mithyā, it is false. So what is their fault?" No. It is not mithyā. It is temporary. Not mithyā. Mithyā, how can it be? Because it is reflection of the reality, therefore it cannot be mithyā. Then the reality becomes mithyā. Mithyā means not fact. The real explanation is that this is shadow, shadow, but the reality is in the spiritual world, and that is indicated in the Vedānta-sūtra, janmādy asya yataḥ, the fountainhead of all emanation. That is Absolute Truth.

Advaita: Swāmījī, last night our window was broken. Was that māyā striking at us?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Advaita: Last night my window was broken. Was that māyā striking?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Advaita: Kids broke the window?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Māyā is always striking. Why do you take only a window? (chuckles) Why do you compact māyā in the window? He is without window, within the window. Māyā is not only, I mean to say, limited to a certain extent. The whole world is māyā. Jagan mithyā. The whole universe is māyā. Only that part is not māyā where the chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa is there.

Devotees: Haribol. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: As soon as there was some slacking in Hare Kṛṣṇa, the māyā struck. (laughs) Yes. Yes.

Govinda dāsī: Swāmījī?

Prabhupāda: Yes. You are asking at the last moment. You are very much careful about time.

Govinda dāsī: Oh. I didn't know.

Prabhupāda: No, you ask me.

Govinda dāsī: No, I won't ask.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no, you ask. Yes. Yes.

Govinda dāsī: Could you describe Kṛṣṇa's pastimes as cowboy whenever He goes out in the morning with the cowherds boys?

Prabhupāda: Yes, you can . . . because . . . have you seen how the . . . you have no experience here in your country. Have you got any experience? But in India we have got experience how in the morning the cowboy takes some food from the mother, and with the cows he goes to the field. The cows are let loose on the grazing ground, they are enjoying, and this cowboy is sometimes singing.

The flute, Kṛṣṇa's flute is because He is cowboy. The cowboys still play in that flute. In India you'll find. Because the cows are let . . . they are doing their own work, and what this boy will do? They are playing. There are many cowherds boys, they are playing— sometimes playing on flutes, sometimes sporting, sometimes eating.

So Kṛṣṇa was exactly doing like that. All the cowboy friend went with Him. Kṛṣṇa was, of course, a very rich man's son. His father was very rich. So He used to take with Him very nice foodstuff, luddoo, kachorī. And other, His poor friends, they were taking capātīs, dry capātīs. (laughs) So they were enjoying, dividing: "Your food, my food, his food."

And sometimes there was some trouble in the forest, because Kamsa was after Kṛṣṇa to kill Him. He was sending his assistants. So some asura would come, Bakāsura, Aghāsura, and Kṛṣṇa would kill. And the boys would return and narrate the story to their mother: "Oh, my dear mother! Such and such thing happened and Kṛṣṇa killed it! Very . . ." (laughter) The mother will, "Oh, yes, our Kṛṣṇa is very wonderful!" (laughter)

So Kṛṣṇa was their enjoyment. That's all. The mother is speaking of Kṛṣṇa, the boy is speaking of Kṛṣṇa. So therefore they did not know anything but Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa. Whenever there is some trouble, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa." When there is fire, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa." That is the beauty of Vṛndāvana. Their mind is absorbed in Kṛṣṇa. Not through philosophy, not through understanding, but natural love: "Kṛṣṇa is our village boy, our relative, our friend, our lover, our master." Some way or other, Kṛṣṇa. That is the beauty.

Therefore Śukadeva Gosvāmī is describing the playing of the boys:

itthaṁ satāṁ brahma-sukhānubhūtya
dāsyaṁ gatānāṁ para-daivatena
māyāśritānāṁ nara-dārakeṇa
sākaṁ vijahruḥ kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ
(SB 10.12.11)

"Oh, these boys playing with Kṛṣṇa, they have attained this position, oh, after, I mean to say, accumulating many, many births' pious activities." Kṛta-puṇya puñjāḥ. Just like a man collects dollar, dollar, dollar, dollar, dollar, and one time he amasses money, say, millions of dollars. Similarly, Śukadeva Gosvāmī is describing that these boys who are playing with Kṛṣṇa, they have amassed their pious activities for millions and billions of births. Because with whom they are playing? They're playing, itthaṁ brahma-sukhānubhūtya. Satāṁ. The stalwart philosophers who are after brahma-sukha, brāhmaṇanda. So that brahmaṇanda is here, Kṛṣṇa.

And dāsyaṁ gatānāṁ para daivatena. And for the devotees, He is the Supreme Lord. And māyāsritanam nara-dārakeṇa: those who are covered in māyā, for them He is ordinary human boy. And with Him these boys are playing. They have amassed pious activities of many, many millions of births. Otherwise it was not possible. So they do not know Kṛṣṇa is God. They do not know. But their affection for Kṛṣṇa is so great and nice that it is inexplicable. They were playing—Kṛṣṇa is defeated, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa has to take the friend on His shoulder, yes, because You are defeated." So Kṛṣṇa is accepting, "Yes, come on My shoulder."

So this kṛṣṇa-līlā, that also one who tries to understand and understands, they are also like those boys who have amassed pious activities of many, many births. It is not ordinary thing. Yes. And māyāśritānāṁ nara dārakeṇa: those who are under the clutches of māyā, they will think these Kṛṣṇa's pastimes, "What is this? What is this? Kṛṣṇa conscious persons, they are enjoying about Kṛṣṇa's going to the field with some cows?" Yes.

Just like one of our student, that Raṇacora, he asked me, "Swāmījī, how is that God has become a cowherd boy?" Yes. Because ordinary people, they are thinking, "God must be so great, so great, great," that they cannot conceive. And that great personality, how He becomes a cowherd boy playing with cowherd boys? Yes. Brahmā also became astonished, and therefore he came to check, "Whether He is my Lord or not?" (laughter) Yes. Bewildered. Muhyanti yatra sūrayaḥ, the Bhāgavata says therefore. Even the great personalities like Brahmā, they are also bewildered to understand the personality.

He . . . Brahmā also heard that, "At Vṛndāvana Kṛṣṇa has appeared, and He is acting as a cowherd boy." He was also astonished. "Oh, my Lord? He has become a cowherd boy?" So he came to check. He, I mean to say, took away all the cowherd boys and cows and everything. And after a few seconds he came, he said: "Kṛṣṇa is playing in the same way."

And although the, I mean, stolen cowherd boys and cows they, by the, I mean to say, energy of māyā, by influence of Brahmā, they were kept in a secret cave. They were sleeping. But Kṛṣṇa is playing. That means He has manifested again with the cowherd boys and cows. Then he was convinced, "Yes, He is my Lord." Then Brahma-stava is there.

Ānanda cinmaya rasa pratibhāvitābhis tābhirya eva nija-rūpatayā kalābhiḥ (Bs. 5.37).

So Kṛṣṇa can expand in many, many thousand times. What Brahmā will do by stealing His . . .? No, that is not possible. So Brahmā was also convinced. These things you'll find in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Brahma-vimohana. Even Brahmā is bewildered, what to speak of ordinary men like us.

So kṛṣṇa-līlā, to understand . . . there is no need of understanding. Simply you love Kṛṣṇa, then the whole business finished. Just like if you touch fire, if you understand it or not understand it, the warmness is there. Similarly, either you understand Kṛṣṇa or do not understand Kṛṣṇa, it doesn't matter. Simply if you love Kṛṣṇa, then your life is perfect. That's all.

Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: You can take this. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (offer obeisances) (end)