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681219 - Lecture BG 02.62-72 - Los Angeles

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

681219BG-LOS ANGELES - December 19, 1968 - 60:27 Minutes

Prabhupāda: You will read? Give me one book. Give me one book.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "While contemplating the objects of the senses, a person develops attachment for them, and from such attachment, lust develops, and from lust, anger arises." (BG 2.62)

Purport. "One who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious is subjected to material desires while contemplating the objects of the senses. The senses require real engagements, and if they are not engaged in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, they will certainly seek engagement in the service of materialism."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Here is the secret of yoga system. Yoga indriya-saṁyama. The real purpose of yoga is to control the senses. Our material activities means to engage the sense in some particular objective or enjoyment. That is our material engagement. And yoga system means that you have to control the senses and detach the senses from material enjoyment, or material pleasure and pains, and divert it, focusing towards seeing the Supersoul Viṣṇu within your soul.

That is the real purpose of yoga. Yoga does not mean . . . of course, in the beginning there are different rules and regulation, sitting posture, just to bring the mind under control. But they are not end themselves. The end is to stop the material engagement and begin spiritual engagement. So here it is explained.

Go on reading.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "In the material world everyone, including Lord Śiva and Lord Brahmā, to say nothing of other demigods in the heavenly planets, is subjected to the influence of dense objects."

Prabhupāda: Sense objects, yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ". . . sense objects. And the only method to get out of this puzzle of material existence is to become Kṛṣṇa conscious."

Prabhupāda: It is learned from Vedic literature that . . . of course, they are showing us, Lord Śiva, Lord Brahmā. They were also sometimes attracted by sense objects. Just like Lord Brahmā, his daughter Sarasvatī . . . Sarasvatī is considered to be the most perfect form of beauty, womanly beauty, Sarasvatī.

So Lord Brahmā became enchanted by the beauty of his daughter just to show us the example that even personalities like Lord Brahmā sometimes become enchanted, this māyā is so strong. He forgot that, "She's my daughter." Then to penance this, Brahmā had to quit the body. These stories are there in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

Similarly, Lord Śiva also, when Kṛṣṇa appeared before him in Mohinī-mūrti . . . Mohinī means the most enchanting, beautiful womanly form. Lord Śiva also became mad after Her. So wherever She was going, Lord Śiva was chasing. And it is stated that while chasing Mohinī-mūrti, Lord Śiva had discharges. So these examples are there.

As it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14).

The whole material energy is enchanting every one of us by this beauty, the womanly beauty. Actually, there is no beauty. It is illusion. Śaṅkarācārya says that, "You are after this beauty, but have you analyzed this beauty, what is the beauty?" Etad rakta-māṁsa-vikāram. It is just like our student Govinda dāsī and Nara-nārāyaṇa molding plaster of Paris. At this time, there is no attraction. But this plaster of Paris, when it will be nicely painted, it will be so attractive.

Similarly, this body is combination of blood and muscles and veins. If you cut the upper portion of your body, as soon as you see inside, it is all obnoxious, horrible things. But outwardly so painted by the illusory color of māyā, oh, it looks very attractive. And that is attracting our senses.

This is the cause of our bondage. We are being bound up by some false, illusory beauty of this world. Mirage. The exact example is the mirage. What is mirage? Reflection of the sunlight on the desert appears like water. Where is water there? There is no water. The animal, thirsty animal, is after the mirage, "Oh, here is water. I'll be satisfied." Similarly, we are hankering after, running after the mirage. There is no peace; there is no happiness.

Therefore we have to divert our attention back to Godhead. Don't run after this mirage. Just turn back to Godhead, back to Kṛṣṇa. That is our propaganda. Don't divert your . . . don't engage your senses in the illusory material beauty. Just apply your senses to Kṛṣṇa, the real beautiful. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Go on.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Lord Śiva once was in deep meditation, but when the beautiful maiden Pārvatī agitated him for sense pleasure, he agreed to the proposal, and as a result Kārttikeya was born."

Prabhupāda: Oh, here is Kārttikeya present. (laughter) (laughs) Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Go on. (laughter)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "When Haridāsa Ṭhākura was a young devotee of the Lord he was similarly allured by the incarnation of Māyādevī."

Prabhupāda: Now here is the difference. Lord Śiva, he is the greatest of the demigods. He was also allured by Pārvatī, and as a result of that attraction, this boy Kārttikeya was born. That was the, what is called, conspiracy of the demigods, that unless one son is born out of the semina of Lord Śiva, it is impossible to conquer the demons. So Kārttikeya is considered the commander-in-chief of the demigods.

But here, another example: Haridāsa Ṭhākura. Haridāsa Ṭhākura was young boy, about twenty, twenty-four years old, and he was chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, and the landlord in that village, he was very much envious of Haridāsa Ṭhākura. He conspired and engaged one prostitute to defy him. So the prostitute agreed, and at dead of night, with very beautiful dress and she was young, and tried to captivate Haridāsa Ṭhākura. But he was not captivated.

That is the difference. A Kṛṣṇa conscious person, even an ordinary person, not in the level of Lord Śiva or Lord Brahmā, he's never conquered by māyā. But one who is not fully in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, either he may be Lord Śiva or Lord Brahmā, he'll be conquered by māyā, what to speak of others. This is the position.

Go on. "When Haridāsa Ṭhākura was a young devotee of the Lord . . ."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ". . . he was similarly allured by the incarnation of Māyādevī, but Haridāsa easily passed the test because of his unalloyed devotion to Lord Kṛṣṇa. A sincere devotee of the Lord learns to hate all material sense enjoyment due to his higher taste for spiritual enjoyment in the association of the Lord. That is the secret of success."

Prabhupāda: Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). Param, if you get better thing, you give up inferior quality thing. That is our nature. Just like our students, American students, they were all accustomed to meat-eating. But now another student, she is preparing the sweet balls, ISKCON balls, and they are forgetting meat-eating. They do not like any more meat-eating. They have got better engagement: sweet balls. (laughter)

Similarly, that is the way. When you get better engagement . . . we are hankering after pleasure. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). Every living entity is seeking after pleasure. That is his nature. You cannot stop. If you stop . . . just like a child is seeking after some enjoyment, he's breaking something, enjoyment. But he does not . . . that he is breaking, but he's simply enjoying that breaking.

Similarly, we do not know what is enjoyment in this material concept of life. We are breaking and building. In your country I have seen in several places, nice building is dismantled, and again, in that very place, another building is raised. You see? Breaking and building. Breaking and . . . "Oh, this building is old. Break it."

The same childish play. You see? Simply wasting engagement, valuable time of this human. Breaking and building, breaking and building. "This motorcar is useless. Another, '69 model." And thousands of people are engaged in that '69 model. You see? What is that? In essence, the breaking and building, breaking and building. Just like the child. You see?

So unless one has got better engagement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, surely they will be engaged in this breaking and building, breaking and building. Childish engagement. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). And so far our students of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they are trying to get two hours more than twenty-four hours. They have got so many . . . so many engagements.

So unless one is engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he must be in the māyā's engagement, same thing. People may eulogize such engagement, "Oh, he's so moneyed man. He has dismantled such nice building and again constructed another nice building." So, this is very nice in material estimation, but in spiritual estimation they are simply wasting time.

(sings) Hari hari biphale janama goṅāinu, that song. Manuṣya-janama pāiyā, rādhā-kṛṣṇa nā bhajiyā, jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu: "Knowingly, purposefully, I am drinking poison." Poison. Why poison? Wasting time of this valuable human form of life is drinking poison. Just like a man drinks poison, he does not know what is his next life. He's going to become a ghost. For years together, he'll not have this material body, as punishment. You have seen? Gaurasundara has written one ghost article in our Back to Godhead. In England, that ghost who fought with Cromwell? There is still fighting. At night, there is sound of fighting going on. You see?

So poison means this human form of life is the chance to get into Kṛṣṇa consciousness and go back to Godhead, but if we do not engage in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, simply engage in this breaking and constructing, then we are simply drinking poison. That means next life I'll be thrown into the cycle of birth and death in the 8,400,000's species of life, and my life is spoiled. We do not know for how many millions of years I'll have to travel in that cycle of birth and death. Therefore it is poison.

Jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu. "I know this; I am hearing. Stil l . . ." Jāniyā śuniyā biṣa . . . just like a thief. Jāniyā śuniyā, these very . . . these words are very significant. Jāniyā means knowing, and śuniyā means hearing. So a habituated thief, he knows that "If I steal I shall be put into jail."

And he has heard from scriptures that, "Don't steal. Then you'll be put into hell." So he has heard from the scriptures and he has seen practically, he has experienced practically, but still, as soon as he's freed from the prison life, he again commits the same mistake. Jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu.

We know; we are hearing from the scriptures, from authorities, Vedic literatures that, "I have got this miserable conditional body, material body, to suffer threefolds of material miseries, still, I am not very much anxious how to stop this repetition of birth and death. I am drinking poison." Jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu. Hari hari biphale janama goṅāinu. These songs are very instructive. Simply purposefully, we are drinking poison.

Go on.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "One who is not, therefore, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, however powerful he may be in controlling the senses by artificial repression, is sure ultimately to fall, for the slightest thought of sense pleasure will drive him to gratify his desires."

Sixty-three: "From anger, delusion arises, and from delusion bewilderment of memory. When memory is bewildered, intelligence is lost, and when intelligence is lost, one falls down again into the material pool."

Prabhupāda: Our position is, we are constituted of this body. Body means the senses, and the controller of the senses or the, what is called, driver, driver of the senses, is the mind. And mind is conducted, thinking, feeling and willing—the psychology, the science of psychology—that is being conducted under intelligence. And above the intelligence, I am sitting. I am a spirit soul.

So how we become victim of this māyā, that is described here, that from anger, delusion arises, and from delusion, bewilderment of memory. Bewilderment memory: I have forgotten completely that I am not this body, I am spirit soul, ahaṁ brahmāsmi—I am part and parcel of the Supreme Brahman, spirit, absolute whole. That I have forgotten.

And when memory is bewildered, and as soon as I forget that I am spirit soul, I identify myself with this material world, illusion. Intelligence is lost. I should have used my intelligence to conduct the activities of the mind—thinking, feeling and willing—and because my mind is not controlled, my senses are not controlled, therefore I am fallen. This is the analysis of the whole bodily construction.

Go on.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sixty-four: "One who can control his senses by regulative principles and who is free from attachment and aversion can attain the mercy of God."

Prabhupāda: Yes. We have fallen down. How we have fallen down? Fallen down to the platform of sense enjoyment. Therefore you have to begin rising up from the senses, controlling of the senses. That is the way of self-realization. Either you practice yoga or practice bhakti, devotional service, the beginning is to control the senses.

So the yogīs and other methods, they are trying to control the senses by force. "I shall go to the Himalaya. I shall not see any more beautiful woman. I shall close down my eyes." These are forceful. You cannot control your senses. There are many instances. You don't require to go to Himalaya. You just remain in Los Angeles city and engage your eyes to see Kṛṣṇa, you are more than a person who has gone to Himalaya. You'll forget all other seeing. This is our process.

You don't require to change your position. You engage your ears for hearing Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, you'll forget all nonsense. You engage your eyes to see the beauty of the Deity, Kṛṣṇa. You engage your tongue for tasting kṛṣṇa-prasādam. You engage your legs to come to this temple. You engage your hands to work for Kṛṣṇa.

You engage your nose to smell the flowers offered to Kṛṣṇa. Then where your senses will go? He's captivated all round. The perfection is sure. You don't require to control your senses forcibly—don't see, don't do it, don't do it. No. You have to change the engagement, the status. That will help you.

Go on.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Purport: "It is already explained that one may externally control the senses by some artificial process, but unless the senses are engaged in the transcendental service of the Lord there is every chance of a fall. Although a person in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness may apparently be on the sensual plane, actually, because of his being Kṛṣṇa conscious, he has no attachment to or detachment from such sensual activities."

"The Kṛṣṇa conscious person is concerned only with the satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa, and nothing else. Therefore he is transcendental to all attachment or detachment. If Kṛṣṇa wants, the devotee can do anything which is ordinarily undesirable, and if Kṛṣṇa does not want, he will not do anything which he would have ordinarily done for his own satisfaction."

"Therefore to act or not to act is within his control, because he acts only under the dictation of Kṛṣṇa. This consciousness is the causeless mercy of the Lord, which the devotee can achieve in spite of his being attached to the sensual platform."

Sixty-five: "For one who is so situated, the threefold miseries of material life exist no longer. In such a happy state one's intelligence is steady."

Sixty-six: "One who is not in transcendental consciousness can have neither a controlled mind nor steady intelligence, without which there is no possibility of peace. And how can there be any happiness without peace?"

Sixty-seven . . .

Prabhupāda: Well, everyone in this material world, they are after peace, but they don't want to control the senses. It is not possible. Just like you are diseased, and doctor says that "You take this medicine, you take this diet," but you cannot control. You are taking anything you like, against the instruction of the physician. Then how you can be cured?

Similarly, we want cure of the chaotic condition of this material world, we want peace and prosperity, but we are not ready to control the senses. We do not know how to control the senses. We do not know the real yogic principle of controlling the senses. So there is no possibility of peace. Kutaḥ śāntir ayuktasya. The exact word is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. If you are not engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no possibility of peace. Artificially, you may try for it, it is not possible.

Go on.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sixty-seven: "As a boat on the water is swept away by a strong wind, even so, one of the senses in which the mind becomes fixed can carry away a man's intelligence."

Prabhupāda: Yes. If you . . . suppose on the Pacific Ocean you are on a boat or on a nice seat, but if you have no controlling capacity, one wave of that Pacific Ocean can immediately bring you to the bottom of the sea. So this is required. We are in the midst of the Pacific Ocean of this māyic world. Saṁsāra-samudra. It is called samudra. So at any moment our boat can be topsy-turvied if we have no controlling power. Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sixty-eight: "Therefore, O mighty armed, one whose senses are restrained from their objects is certainly of steady intelligence."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, "one whose sense are restrained." This human life is meant for restraining the senses. Tapaḥ. This is called tapasya, penance. Suppose I am habituated to some type of sense gratification. Now, I take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness; my spiritual master or the scripture says, "Don't do this." So in the beginning, I may feel some inconvenience, but if you can tolerate that, that is tapasya. That is tapasya.

Tapasya means I am feeling some inconvenience, bodily, but I am tolerating. That is called tapasya. And this human form of life is meant for that tapasya. Not that because my senses are demanding this satisfaction, I shall immediately offer. No. I shall train myself in such a way that my senses may demand, "My dear sir, give me this facility," I will say, "No. You cannot have." This is called gosvāmī or svāmī.

At the present moment, everyone, we are . . . we have made our svāmī, or master, the senses, and when you actually become the master of the senses, then you are svāmī or gosvāmī. That is the significance of svāmī and gosvāmī. It is not the dress. One who has controlling power, one who is not dictated by the senses, one who is not servant of the senses . . . my tongue is dictating, "Please take me to that restaurant and eat sticks." What is that stick, sticks?

Devotee: Steak.

Prabhupāda: Steak? What is that spelling?

Devotee: S-t-e-a-k.

Prabhupāda: So anyway . . . or that fried chicken. Yes. So tongue is dictating me. But if you can control your tongue, "No. I'll give you sweetball. Don't go there," (laughter) then you'll become master of the senses. You see? The others are trying that "Don't go there" only. That is impossible. The tongue must have something beautiful.

Otherwise it is not possible. That is artificial. If the tongue, you give him something more beautiful than this fried chick or stick or this or that, it will stop. That is the policy. Our policy is that. We can give that, what is called, casein fried with rice. How nice it is. He'll forget meat-eating.

So this is the policy, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. All the senses should be supplied something, not artificially stop it. That is not possible. That is not possible. Others, they are simply trying artificially to stop the function of the senses. No. That is not possible. Our policy is tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). You can purify the activities of the senses, being engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then senses will not disturb you. If you want to control the senses, you have to control the tongue first of all. Then you will be able to control other senses very easily.

So you give tongue the engagement of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, and for tasting kṛṣṇa-prasādam you'll find that your other senses are already controlled. This is the key of controlling our senses, the tongue. And if you give privilege and indulgence to the tongue, you'll never be able to control other senses. This is the secret of controlling senses.

Go on.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sixty-nine: "What is night for all beings is the time of awakening for the self-controlled, and the time of awakening for all beings is the night for the introspective sage."

Purport: "There are two classes of intelligent men. The one is intelligent in material activities for sense gratification, and the other is introspective and awake to the cultivation of self-realization. Activities of the introspective sage, or thoughtful man, are night for persons materially absorbed. Materialistic persons remain asleep during such a night due to their ignorance of self-realization. The introspective sage, however, remains alert in that night of the materialistic man."

Prabhupāda: Night means when people sleep, and day means when they are awake. This is the understanding of day and night. So one . . . the materialistic person, they are sleeping in the matter of spiritual understanding. So therefore the activities which we find in daytime of the materialistic person, actually that is night.

For the spiritualistic person, they see that these people, they got the facility of self-realization, this human form of life—how they are wasting by sleeping. And the materialistic persons, they are seeing, "Oh, these Kṛṣṇa conscious young boys, they have given up everything and they are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. How nonsense. They are sleeping." So you see?

So in the vision of the materialistic person, these activities are night, sleeping. And for the self-realized person, these activities are sleeping. You see? Just the opposite. They are seeing the Kṛṣṇa conscious person as wasting time, and the Kṛṣṇa conscious person is seeing them as wasting time. This is the position.

Go on.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Such sages feel transcendental pleasure in the gradual advancement of spiritual culture, whereas the man in materialistic activities, being asleep to self-realization, dreams of varieties of sense pleasure."

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are dreaming: "Now we shall do this. Next time, I shall have this," "Next time, I shall have this," "Next time, I shall kill that enemy," "Next time, I shall do this." They are planning like that. Go on.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ". . . feeling sometimes happy and sometimes distressed in his sleeping condition. The introspective man is always indifferent to materialistic happiness and distress."

Prabhupāda: The introspective man who is after self-realization, he knows very well, "Suppose if I do in future such-and-such big business, or such . . . I can construct such big skyscraper house," but because he's introspective, he knows that, "What I shall do with all these things? As soon as I exit from the platform, everything remains here, and I take another form of body, begins another life." That is introspection.

The materialistic person, they cannot understand what is the future. They are thinking this body is everything, "We have got this body, and when it is finished, it is finished for all." These questions we have already discussed. But actually it is not. This is the first understanding of self-realization, that soul is eternal, it is not annihilated even after the annihilation of this body. This is the beginning of self-realization. So these people, they do not understand it. They don't care for it. That is their sleeping. That is their miserable condition.

Go on.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "He goes on with his self-realization activity undisturbed by material reactions."

Seventy: "A person who is not disturbed by the incessant flow of desires that enter like rivers into the ocean, which is ever being filled but is always still, can alone achieve peace, and not the man who strives to satisfy such desires."

Prabhupāda: Now, here is the . . . a materialistic person, he has his desires. Suppose he is doing some business, he is getting money. So he fulfills his desire in materialistic way. But a Kṛṣṇa conscious person, suppose he is doing in the same way, he is also planning or doing something after Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So these two different spheres of activities are not on the same level.

Go on.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Seventy: "A person who is not . . ." Seventy-one: "A person who has given up all desires for sense gratification, who lives free from desires, who has given up all sense of proprietorship and is devoid of false ego, he alone can attain real peace."

Prabhupāda: Yes. The person who has given up all desire for sense gratification. We haven't got to kill our desire. How you can kill? Desire is constant companion of a living entity. That is the living symptom. Because I am living entity, you are living entity, you have got desire, I have got desire. Not this table. The table has no life; therefore it has no desire.

The table cannot say that, "I am standing here for so many months. Please move me to some other place." No. Because it has no desire. But if I am sitting here for three hours, oh, I'll say, "Oh, I got tired. Please remove me from . . . please get me another place."

So desire must be there because we are living. We have to change the engagement of desires. If we engage our desires for sense gratification, that is material. But if we engage our desires for acting on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, that is our . . . we're free from all desires. This is the criterion.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Seventy-two: "That is the way of the spiritual and godly life, after attaining which a man is not bewildered. Being so situated, even at the hour of death, one can enter into the kingdom of God."

Purport: "One can attain Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or divine life, at once, within a second, or one may not attain such a state of life even after millions of births."

Prabhupāda: Several times there were questions that, "How long it will take to become Kṛṣṇa conscious?" I have also answered that in a second it can be done. The same thing is being explained. Go on.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "It is only a matter of understanding and accepting the fact. Khaṭvāṅga Mahārāja attained this state of life just a few minutes before his death by surrendering unto Kṛṣṇa. Nirvāṇa means ending the process of materialistic life. According to Buddha's philosophy, there is only void after this material life."

"But the Bhagavad-gītā teaches differently. Actual life begins after the completion of this material life. For the gross materialist, it is sufficient to know that one has to end his materialistic way of life. But for persons who are spiritually advanced, there is another life after this materialistic one."

"Therefore, before ending this life, if one fortunately becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, certainly he at once attains the stage of brahma-nirvāṇa. There is no difference between the kingdom of God and the devotional service of the Lord. Since both of them are on the absolute plane, to be engaged in the transcendental loving service of the Lord is to have attained the spiritual kingdom."

"In the material world there are activities of sense gratification, whereas in the spiritual world there are activities of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore attainment of Kṛṣṇa consciousness even during this life is immediate attainment of Brahman, and one who is situated in Kṛṣṇa consciousness has certainly already entered into the kingdom of God."

"Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has summarized the Second Chapter of the Bhagavad-gītā as being the contents for the whole text. In the Bhagavad-gītā, the subject matters are karma-yoga, jñāna-yoga . . ."

Prabhupāda: Jñāna-yoga.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ". . . jñāna-yoga and bhakti-yoga. In the Second Chapter, karma-yoga and jñāna-yoga have been clearly discussed, and a glimpse of bhakti-yoga has also been given.

"Thus end the Bhaktivedanta Purports of the Second Chapter of the Śrīmad Bhagavad-gītā, in the matter of its Contents."

Prabhupāda: Thank you. (devotees offer obeisances)

Any question? Yes?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I've always been confused as to . . . it says here that a pure devotee like Haridāsa Ṭhākura would not fall victim to Māyādevī's temptations, but even Lord Brahmā, Lord Śiva, might fall victim. I always thought that they were pure devotees of the Lord.

Prabhupāda: No. They are pure devotees, but they are guṇāvatāra. Just like Lord Brahmā is the supreme personality within this material universe. He's the father of all living entities. So they are . . . of course, if we very scrutinizingly study, Haridāsa Ṭhākura is, in devotional service, in greater position than Brahmā, although he is considered the incarnation of Brahmā, Brahmā Haridāsa.

So we should not be disturbed when we see Lord Brahmā and Lord Śiva is captivated in that way. We should take this instruction, that if Lord Brahmā, Lord Śiva becomes victim of māyā sometimes, what to speak of us? Therefore we shall be very, very careful.

There is chance of falldown even in the status of Brahmā and Śiva, what to speak of ordinary person. Therefore we should be very strongly inclined to Kṛṣṇa consciousness like Haridāsa Ṭhākura. Then we shall be able very easily to overcome the allurement of māyā. That is to be understood. Not that "Brahmā showed that," what is called, "weakness. He is weak, or he is less." No. That is for our instruction. Yes. Or first of all his. Yes.

Devotee (1): It is said that once you achieve the Godhead, once you go back to Kṛṣṇa, that you don't fall down. But it is also said that we come from there originally. If we came from there, how did we fall, if we were already there?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like this example that personalities like Brahmā and Śiva, they also sometimes become victims of māyā. So our, I mean to say, potency of falling down is always there, potency. And because we are part and parcel of God, and because we are now in the material world, it is to be understood that we have fallen down. But you cannot trace out the history when you have fallen down. That is impossible. But our position is marginal. At any moment, we can fall down. That tendency is there. Therefore we are called marginal.

But one . . . that's like it is very simple to understand. Everyone is prone to fall diseased. Is it not? Now, when you are diseased, there is no necessity of finding out the history when you became diseased. You are diseased; make your treatment. That's all. Similarly, we are in the material condition of life.

Just go on treating it, and as soon as you are cured, be careful not to fall down again. But there is chance of falling down, again becoming diseased. Not that because you once become cured, and there is no chance of becoming diseased again. There is chance. Therefore we shall be very much careful. Yes?

Bīrabhadra: In the Bhagavad-gītā it says on page 41 that Brahmā is the second spiritual master. But, I thought that all spiritual masters live forever. But Brahmā doesn't live forever?

Prabhupāda: Yes. We live forever. By change of body you do not die. You live forever, I live forever. Death means we change this body, that's all. Just like you change your dress. When you change your dress, it does not mean that you die.

Similarly, change of this body does not mean actually death. Or to appear in a different body does not mean actually birth. There is no birth and death of the living entity, but the change of body is taking place in our material condition. That is taken as birth and death. Actually there is no birth and death. Yes?

Devotee (2): Prabhupāda, for one who worships Lord Buddha, is there a planet for him to go to, or is there . . .?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Devotee (2): For one who worships Lord Buddha in the bhakta-gaṇa, they say, or some way, some kind of devotional service rendered towards Lord Buddha, is there a planet for him to go to like which Lord Buddha presides over, or . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is a neutral stage. That is not planet; that is the marginal position between the spiritual world and the material world. But one has to come down again. Unless one enters into the spiritual sky and takes his situation in some of the spiritual planet . . . just like you fly in the sky. Unless you get some planet, you'll have to come down again.

You cannot fly all the days in the sky. That is not possible. That is neutral stage. Neither in other planet, nor in this planet, flying. How long you shall fly? You have to take some shelter. But if you have no shelter in the higher planets or higher situation, then you shall have to come down.

So . . . the same example can be repeated. Suppose if you go in the outer space . . . just like the sputnik men, they go sometime. People think, "Oh, where he has gone, so high, so high." But he has not gone anywhere. He's coming down again. So it is false clapping, "Oh, he has gone so high, so high." What is the use of going so high?

You are coming down next moment. Because you have no power to enter into another planet, so what your machine, this sputnik or these planes, will help you? You have to come down again. Rather, you shall fall down in some Atlantic Ocean or Pacific Ocean, and somebody will go and pick you up. You see? This is your position.

So voidism means to fly in the sky and be puffed up, "I have come so high, I have come so high, so high." (chuckles) That foolish man does not know how long he'll keep in that high position. You see? He will come down. This is māyā's attraction. He'll have to come down. There is a verse in the . . .

ye 'nye 'ravindākṣa vimukta-māninas
tvayy asta-bhāvād aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ
āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ
patanty adho 'nādṛta-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ
(SB 10.2.32)

This is the prayer by Prahlāda Mahārāja. He says: "My dear Lord, lotus-eyed, Aravindākṣa," ye anye. "Some third-class men, they are very much proud of ending this material life, these nirvāṇa, or these impersonalist." Vimukta-māninaḥ. Vimukta-māninaḥ means they are simply falsely thinking that they have surpassed the clutches of māyā. Falsely.

Vimukta-māninaḥ. Just like if you falsely think that, "I am the proprietor of this Los Angeles city," is it not your false thinking? Similarly, if anyone thinks that, "Now I have attained nirvāṇa, or I have merged into the Supreme . . ." You may think like that. But māyā is very strong. You may be puffed up by such false prestige. Vimukta-māninaḥ.

But Bhāgavata says, tvayy asta-bhāvād aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ: "But because they have not searched out Your lotus feet, therefore their consciousness is impure, thinking 'I am something.' " Aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ: "Their intelligence, consciousness, is not purified." Therefore āruhya kṛcchreṇa: "They perform very severe practice."

Just like the Buddhists, they have got very . . . now, those who are not practicing, that is different thing. But rules and regulation, Lord Buddha himself, he showed. He left his everything and became engaged in simply meditation. Who is doing that? Nobody is doing that. Śaṅkarācārya's first condition is that "First of all you take sannyāsa; then you talk of becoming Nārāyaṇa."

Who is taking sannyāsa? So they are simply falsely thinking. Actually, their intelligence is impure, consciousness is impure. Therefore in spite of such endeavorance, the result is āruhya kṛcchreṇa param. Although they go very high, say 25,000 miles or millions of miles up, they do not find any shelter, where is moon planet, where is . . . they come down again to your Moscow city, that's all. Or New York City, that's all. These are the examples.

When they're high up, oh, they'll take photograph, "Oh, this planet is so . . . this earthly planet is so green or so small. I am going round day and night and seeing in one hour three times day and night." All right, very good. Please come down again. (laughs) That's all. Māyā is so strong, she will say: "Yes, very good. You are very advanced in your scientific knowledge, but please come down. Come here. Otherwise you are going to be put into the Atlantic Ocean." That's all.

And they'll still be puffed up, "Oh, we are making progress. Within next ten years, you can purchase ticket or land in the moon." You know, in Russia they sold land, and they advertised that, "There is Sea of Moscow. We have planted our flag on the sea in the . . ." So these are propaganda. They cannot go even into the nearest planet, what to speak of the spiritual sky. If you actually serious of going to the spiritual sky and Vaikuṇṭhaloka, then take this simple method, Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all.

Guest: I am interested in atheism.

Prabhupāda: This is the gift of Lord Caitanya. Namo mahā-vadānyāya. Therefore Rūpa Gosvāmī says, "You are the greatest of all charitable persons, because You are offering the greatest boon." Kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te (CC Madhya 19.53): "You are offering love of Kṛṣṇa, which will get me to the kingdom of Kṛṣṇa." This is the greatest gift to the human society. But the foolish person, they do not understand it. What can I do?

Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī (BG 7.14). The māyā is very strong. If we say that "Here is a small booklet, Easy Journey to Other Planet," they'll not take it. They will make plan of how to go in other planet by Sputniks, which is impossible. You cannot go anywhere. That is our conditioned life.

Conditioned means you must stay here. You must stay here. Who is allowing to go other planet? For coming to . . . to take the permanent visa of your country, I had to fight so much, and you are going to moon planet?

There is no visa? They will allow you only to enter? It is so easy thing? But they foolishly think that simply, "I am the monarch of all I survey." That's all. "This planet is the monarch, and all other planets, they're all subservient. They will satisfy our senses." This is foolishness.

All right. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (devotees offer obeisances) (end)