681014 - Lecture BG 02.19-25 - Seattle

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His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



681014BG-SEATTLE - October 14, 1968 - 69:02 Minutes



Viṣṇujana: "He who thinks that the living entity is the slayer or that the entity is slain does not understand. One who is in knowledge knows that the self slays not nor is slain." (BG 2.19)

Purport. "When an embodied being is hurt by fatal weapons, it is to be known that the living entity within the body is not killed. The spirit soul is so small that it is impossible to kill him by any material weapon. Nor is the living entity killable in any case, because of his spiritual constitution."

"What is killed or is supposed to be killed is the body only. This, however, does not at all encourage killing of the body. The Vedic injunction is mā hiṁsyāt sarvā bhūtāni: Never commit offenses of violence to anyone. The understanding that a living entity is not killed does not encourage animal slaughter. Killing the body of anyone without authority is abominable, and it is punishable by the law of the state as well as by the law of the Lord."

Prabhupāda: (aside) Where he is going?

Viṣṇujana: "Arjuna, however, is being engaged in killing for the principle of religion, and not whimsically."

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Viṣṇujana: This is verse twenty, "For the soul there is never birth or death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal and ever-existing, undying and primeval. He is not . . ."

Prabhupāda: These are the statements of Kṛṣṇa. Now the constitution of the soul . . . so far materialists are concerned, they cannot even find out where is the soul. Therefore there are so many theories. Actually, they cannot find out where the soul is situated because material senses cannot approach.

The measurement of the soul is stated in the Vedic literature as one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. So there is no possibility of understanding what is soul by material scientist. The only process is to take it from higher authorities like Kṛṣṇa.

Kṛṣṇa here gives definition of the soul. So we have to accept it. And not blindly accept it, but try to understand as far as possible with your arguments and reason. But this is the actual fact. Fact. What is that statement? The soul, definition of soul, Kṛṣṇa is giving?

Viṣṇujana: "Only the material body of the indestructible, immeasurable and eternal living entity is subject to destruction." (BG 2.18) "He who thinks that the living entity is the slayer or that the entity is slain does not understand. One who is in knowledge knows that the self slays not nor is slain." (BG 2.19)

Prabhupāda: Then? Next?

Viṣṇujana: Twenty: "For the soul there is never birth or death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain (BG 2.20)."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because eternal, therefore how it can be slain? So soul is never slain. The body is slain. Then?

Viṣṇujana: Twenty-one: "O Pārtha, how can a person who knows that the soul is indestructible, unborn, eternal and immutable kill anyone or cause anyone to kill (BG 2.21)?"

Purport: "Everything has its utility, and a man who is situated in complete knowledge knows how and where to apply a thing for its proper utility. Similarly, violence also has its use, and how to apply violence rests with the person in knowledge. Although the Justice of the Peace awards capital punishment to a person condemned for murder, the Justice of the Peace cannot be blamed because he orders violence to another according to the codes of justice. In the Manu-saṁhitā . . ."

Prabhupāda: Manu-saṁhitā, yes.

Viṣṇujana: ". . . the law book for mankind, it is supported that a murderer should be condemned to death so that in his next life he will not have to suffer for the great sin he has committed. Therefore the king's punishment of hanging a murderer is actually beneficial."

"Similarly, when Kṛṣṇa orders fighting, it must be concluded that violence is for the supreme justice, and as such, Arjuna should follow the instruction, knowing well that such violence committed in the act of fighting for justice is not at all violence. Because at any rate, the man, or rather the soul, cannot be killed."

"For the administration of justice, so-called violence is permitted. A surgical operation is not meant to kill the patient, but is for his cure. Therefore the fighting to be executed by Arjuna under the instruction of Kṛṣṇa is with full knowledge, and so there is no possibility of sinful reaction."

Prabhupāda: This is the distinction between violence and nonviolence. People are very much advocate of nonviolence, but they are committing, according to their estimation, they are committing every moment violence. But from higher standard there is practically no violence, and the things which apparently appear to be violence, if it is properly executed . . .

Just like under the order of high court judge, one body is being executed. So that is not violence. A justice of higher order is not meant for committing violence. It is justice. Similarly, when, under the direction of the supreme justice, Kṛṣṇa, anything is done, apparently if . . . although it appears violence, it is not violence; it is justice. This is to be understood.

Go on.

Viṣṇujana: Twenty-two: "As a person puts on a new garment, giving up old ones, similarly the soul accepts new material bodies, giving up the old and useless one (BG 2.22)." Purport . . .

Prabhupāda: In a different way, in varied ways, Kṛṣṇa is trying to make us understand the constitutional position of the soul. Yes.

Viṣṇujana: "Change of body by the atomic individual soul is an accepted fact. Even some of the modern scientists who do not believe in the existence of the soul but at the same time cannot explain the source of energy from the heart, they have to accept continuous changes of body which appear from childhood to boyhood and from boyhood to youth and again from youth to old age. From old age the change is transferred to another body. This has already been explained in the previous verse.

"Transference of the atomic individual soul to another body is also made possible by the grace of the Supersoul. The Supersoul fulfills the desire of the soul as one friend fulfills the desire of another. The Vedas, such as the Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad, as well as the Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad . . ."

Prabhupāda: Śvetāśvatara.

Viṣṇujana: ". . . confirm this concept of two kinds of souls by comparing them to two friendly birds sitting on the same tree. One of the birds, the individual atomic soul, is eating the fruit of the tree, and the other bird is simply watching his friend.

"Of these two birds, although they are the same in quality, one is captivated by the fruits of the material tree, while the other is simply witnessing his activity. Kṛṣṇa is the witnessing bird and Arjuna is the eating bird. Although they are friends, one is still the master and the other is the servant."

Prabhupāda: That is the eternal relationship. These are confirmed in Vedic literature, just like Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad, Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad. The system is whatever is mentioned in the Vedas, that is authoritatively accepted. That is the Vedic understanding. If there is some evidence in the Vedas . . . just like in law court, if there is some section in the law book, then the lawyers, the judge, accept it, "Yes, it is like this."

Similarly knowledge. Vedas means knowledge. So perfect knowledge is there. Therefore if the evidence is there in the statement of Vedas, that is the proof. Śabda-pramāṇa. There are three kinds of evidences. Pratyakṣa, direct sense perception; and śabda-pramāṇa, evidence from the Vedic statement; and anumāna, aitihya, historical or hypothesis.

So out of all evidences, the evidence which is called . . . derived from Vedic statement, that is accepted as most authoritative. Therefore Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad and Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad, they are Vedas. There is statement that two birds are sitting on the same tree. The tree is compared . . . the body is compared with the tree. And two birds, namely the Supersoul, Kṛṣṇa, and the living entity, individual soul, they are sitting together. And one is eating the fruit of the tree and the other is simply witnessing. This is our position.

The other friendly bird, Kṛṣṇa, or Supersoul, is giving us opportunity to act with this body as I like. He's giving us opportunity. Kṣetra-jña. I am the proprietor of this body. I have been allowed to utilize this body as I like. And the facility is given by the Supersoul. So if I like, I can utilize this body for higher grade of life. Kṛṣṇa will give us all facilities. And if I like, I can utilize this body for lower grade of life. Kṛṣṇa will give us facilities.

So He's always friendly. And He gives us also friendly advice that, "Don't act independently. Just act in Kṛṣṇa consciousness under Me. Then you'll be happy." That is His actual instruction. But the living entity does not care for the instruction of the Supersoul. He wants to act independently, and he has to suffer the consequence.

That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā in the Fourth Chapter. Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). Yajña means Viṣṇu or Kṛṣṇa. Whatever you do, or what . . . Not whatever you do; you have to do only for Kṛṣṇa. Yajñārthe karma. Whatever you act. Never mind. Whatever you do. But you have to act for Kṛṣṇa. Yajñārthe karma anyatra. Otherwise, karma-bandhanaḥ, you'll be bound up by the reaction.

The same example: just a person acting on behalf of some superior authority, government, personally he has no responsibility, because he is acting on behalf of the supreme authority. Just like a manager or agent, attorney. Just like we signed one lease agreement.

That Mr. Brown, he is acting as attorney on behalf of the landlord. So he has no responsibility. He is acting in landlord capacity or landlord consciousness. He is trying to save the interest of the landlord as far as possible. But if there is any mistake, the landlord will suffer or gain; he has nothing to do.

Similarly, if we work in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if there is something wrong . . . because we can act two ways: wrongly or rightly. That's all. If we do rightly, it is all right. Even if we don't do it rightly, wrongly, still, it is right, because the cause is the Supreme. Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9).

The best, safest way of acting is to act in Kṛṣṇa consciousness or under the order of Kṛṣṇa. Or if somebody says, "Where is Kṛṣṇa?" No. Kṛṣṇa is there. Just like Bhagavad-gītā is there, and the explanation of Bhagavad-gītā by the representative of Kṛṣṇa is there. So Kṛṣṇa, being absolute, His representative, His words are nondifferent from Him.

We should not think that, "Kṛṣṇa is not in my presence." As soon as Bhagavad-gītā is there, and as soon as we understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is, that means we are hearing directly Kṛṣṇa. So if we do according to the instruction of Kṛṣṇa, as Arjuna did, then there is no reaction. We are free. Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra.

Then? You go on.

Viṣṇujana: "Although they are friends, one is still the master, the other is the servant. Forgetfulness of this . . ."

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . This friend is giving us facility. Kṛṣṇa is always our friend, natural friend. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām (BG 5.29). Suhṛdam means suhṛt. There are different kinds of friend, but here . . . in Sanskrit, for different kinds of friend, there are different names. Just like one friend is called bandhu, one is called mitra, one friend is called suhṛt. There are differences. Therefore they are different words. Just like in English language there is only one "friend" word . . . one . . . one word "friend". But in Sanskrit, because it is perfect language, friend—what kind of friend.

So Kṛṣṇa says that, "I am suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām." Suhṛt, suhṛt means He's such a friend . . . just like you have got a friend, sincerely he wants how you shall be happy. Just like your mother. Mother is also friend. Or wife, devoted wife, she is also friend. So mother, wife or any such relative, or father. Or there are many person in our ordinary relationship. So they want actually that, "My this friend be happy." That is real friend, suhṛt. And mitra, social friendship; bandhu, official friendship. But suhṛt, suhṛt means one who actually desires good of his friend, "sincere friend" which you describe in English.

So Kṛṣṇa is suhṛt. He's always expecting my good, how I shall be good. And therefore He is canvassing me, "Please, you surrender unto Me." Just like father says: "My dear boy, why you are acting independently? Foolishly you are suffering. Just surrender unto me. I shall give you, I shall give you protection." Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is friend like that. He's always asking. He is going with me in any type of body. Even if I get the body of a dog, Kṛṣṇa is always there with me.

Īś . . . that is stated in Bhagavad-gītā, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). Īśvara, the Supreme Lord, is staying within the heart of every living entity. So "every living entity" means He is staying even with the cats, dogs, hogs, or any lower type of animal. He has no hesitation. Because He is not living with him; He's living in Vaikuṇṭha. But He's so friendly that wherever this friend is going, He's also going there. He is with . . .

As Paramātmā, He is doing friendly activities. He's sending His bona fide servant as spiritual master. He's coming as incarnation. He's coming as devotee, Lord Caitanya. He's helping us in so many ways. But we are so foolish we are not accepting Him. You see? He's so . . . nobody can be better friend than Kṛṣṇa. But we are so much unfortunate, so much captivated by the external energy, that we don't accept Kṛṣṇa as friend. We accept so many other things as friend.

Go on.

Viṣṇujana: "Forgetfulness of this relationship by the atomic soul is the cause of one changing his position from one tree to another, or from one body to another."

Prabhupāda: Now here, that . . . he's . . . he's giving trouble to the friend. I am giving to my sincere friend Kṛṣṇa simply trouble. Just like a bird is flying from one tree to another. The friend bird is also there. He has no business, he has no interest to be there, because he is not eating anything from the tree. He has nothing to do. But because his friend is there, he goes. So we are changing our body as the bird, the changing from one tree to another. But Kṛṣṇa, the supreme bird, is also going with me.

Go on.

Viṣṇujana: "The jīva, soul, is struggling very hard in the tree of the material body. But as soon as he agrees to accept the other bird . . ."

Prabhupāda: That's all.

Viṣṇujana: ". . . as the supreme spiritual master . . ."

Prabhupāda: Then here is the solution. He's simply taking unnecessary trouble. Kṛṣṇa says that "I'll supply you everything. There is no necessity of going from here to there." No. But I'm not accepting it. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). One who understands this, "How Kṛṣṇa is helping me, how He is my, the greatest well-wisher, friend," immediately we can stop all these problems of life and go back to Godhead, go back to home.

Viṣṇujana: "But as soon as he agrees to accept the other bird as the supreme spiritual master, as Arjuna has agreed to do, by voluntary surrender unto Kṛṣṇa for instruction, the subordinate bird immediately becomes free from all lamentation."

Prabhupāda: Yes. As Arjuna has accepted. Arjuna was talking with Kṛṣṇa as friend, but he has accepted. Although he is friend, he has accepted Him as spiritual master. The significance is that as soon as you accept somebody as spiritual master, you cannot argue. You have to accept. You have to accept. Therefore the selection of spiritual . . . must be very scrutinizing.

You cannot accept anyone as spiritual master. You must be very much satisfied that, "Here is a person who can solve the problems of my life." Just like Arjuna thought. He plainly said that, "The problem which is before me, I know, beyond You, besides You, nobody can make solution." That is the way of accepting spiritual master.

When one is fully convinced that, "Here is a person who can actually solve the problems of my life," then one should accept spiritual master. In the Hari-bhakti-vilāsa there is such process that one should accept a spiritual master after associating with him for some time. Similarly, the spiritual master also shall accept somebody as disciple after associating with him for some time, whether he is eligible or not. This is the process.

Go on.

Viṣṇujana: Twenty-three: "The soul can never be cut into pieces by any weapon, nor can he be burned by fire, nor moistened by water nor withered by the wind (BG 2.23)." Purport.

Prabhupāda: This is the distinction of the soul being spirit. You take anything of this material world, they can be burned. It is the question of temperature only. Even iron is being burned, any metal, any hard thing, stone is being burned, everything is being burned. But here it is said that soul cannot be burned. So does it mean that it is stronger than iron and stone?

But it is very fragmental, minute, atomic portion. But it cannot be burned. So all these symptoms . . . cannot be burn . . . burned, cannot be cut into pieces. So here the Māyāvādī theory will fail. If the soul cannot be cut into pieces, then how the soul has become enwrapped with māyā? They give the example, ghaṭākāśa-poṭākāśa. Of course, they say that it is covered; it is not cut into pieces.

But the soul is separated, I mean to say, a separate identity constitutionally. That will be confirmed in the Fifteenth Chapter. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ (BG 15.7). Sanātana means eternally. Eternally . . . the example just like fire and fire sparks. The fire sparks are part and parcel of the fire. Similarly the soul, individual soul, is part and parcel of the Supreme. But that part and parcel is eternally. Not that being covered by māyā, it has become individual. No. Individual permanently. Permanently individual.

As God is permanently individual, so every one of us living entity, we are permanent. It is not that by māyā we have been separated, cut into pieces, fragment. It is clearly stated it cannot be cut. If it is not cut, cannot be cut, then how I have become fragment, that I am not cut fragment; I am eternal fragment?

That is confirmed in the Fifteenth Chapter, sanātana, eternal. Try to understand . . . (indistinct) . . . just like you take a paper, you cut into pieces. That is cut. But here it is said that the spirit cannot be cut. Then how we have become fragments, pieces, different individuals? That means we are eternally so. We are eternally individual.

It is not that by the influence of māyā you have been cut into pieces. No. Here it is said you cannot be cut. Another, it cannot be burned. If you study one verse of Bhagavad-gītā, you understand so many things. It cannot be burned. Now, if it cannot be burned, then in fire also there is soul.

The materialists say that in the sun globe it is impossible to have living entities there. No. Because it cannot be burned. So impossible, possible. So this Vedic knowledge that sun planet is a planet just like other planet, and it is fiery, and the residents are also fiery body, so why one should be astonished that there is living entity? Why they should deny, that there is no living entity? They are denying that in the moon planet also there is no living entity. Why? Why?

Living entity can be everywhere. Sarva-ga (BG 2.24). This very word has been used in Bhagavad-gītā, sarva-ga. You'll find it. Sarva-ga means he can go everywhere. He can go . . . live in the fire also. And actually we see that in the air there is living entity, in the water there is living entity, in the land there is living entity. So why not in the fire? Fire is one of the elements like air, water, land. So if in other elements there is possibility of living beings, why not in one? What is the reason? What is the argument?

And Vedic literature gives us information that in the fire there is germ also. Just like in water there is germ, in the earth there is germ, in the air there is germ, living entities; similarly, in the fire there is also. And here it is said it cannot be burned. Even it is in the fire, there is no possibility of being burned. So why not in the fire? It requires a different type of body only. That's all. Just like the fish. It has got a different type of body.

It is living very comfortably in the water. You have got a different type of body. You are living in the land very comfortably. You cannot live in the water. The fish cannot live in the land. Similarly, in the fiery planet, just like sun, there must be living entity. There must be. You cannot say by any reason that there is no living entity. How you can say, if it is a fact that living entity cannot be burned? Is it not? Just try to understand.

Yes?

Viṣṇujana: Twenty-four: "This individual soul is unbreakable, insoluble (BG 2.24)."

Prabhupāda: Unbreakable, again. The Māyāvādī theory that it has broken part by māyā. No. Unbreakable. That means eternally we are individual, separated. Just like we are sitting, all individual. This is our eternal position. Kṛṣṇa is confirming that, "Arjuna, yourself, Myself and all these people who are assembled here, they're all individuals. They existed in the past, and they'll continue to exist in the future." So this is a confirmed truth, that every living entity is individual and Kṛṣṇa is also individual.

And that is also stated in the Vedas. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). He is the chief of all these individual living entities. That is the difference. He is the chief. Just like you have accept me the chief of your group. But that does not mean in all other respects we are all one. You have got the same feeling; I have got the same feeling.

You have selected me, or I have got some extraordinary qualification, I am controlling you. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa has got the extraordinary quality by which He can control the whole situation. Otherwise, He is as individual as we are. That's all. The supreme controller. We use this word. That's all.

Kṛṣṇa is . . . just like we are sitting face to face, Kṛṣṇa is like that. You can have that opportunity. Just like Arjuna had the opportunity. Similarly, you'll have the opportunity. You have to take the opportunity. You'll see Kṛṣṇa face to face, talk with Him face to face, play with Him face to face. It is so nice, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yes.

Go on.

Viṣṇujana: "He is everlasting, all-pervading, unchangeable, immovable, and eternally the same."

Prabhupāda: Everlasting. This is the word. Everlasting. Then why I am not everlasting now? This is my diseased condition. People should take it like this. Here it is stated that the living entity is everlasting, but my present position is not everlasting. I'm temporary. So why shall I be in this temporary . . . such abominable condition? I am everlasting.

So they are so rascal fools they do not search out how he can be everlasting. They are trying to (sic) oint this body. That's all. Everlasting body by ointment, you see? That is not possible. That is their foolishness. They are trying to make this body, by so-called science, everlasting. That will never be possible.

Your everlasting position is that you are spirit soul. You have to transfer yourself in that healthy condition, not this diseased cond . . . this is disease. My birth and death is disease. You have to cure this disease. That is your problem, real problem. But they are not serious about curing . . . solving this real problem, birth and death.

They are thinking, "So long I live, let me enjoy senses as far as possible, and let me enjoy." That's all. That's their philosophy. Child's philosophy. Just like child does not look forward his future. He's very playful. He sees that "This playing will make me happy." Similarly, these rascals, they are simply enjoying senses, forgetting their future life.

So this is a rascal civilization. This is not a good civilization. You see? Childish civilization. However they may be proud of their advancement of knowledge, it is childish civilization, because they have no future. Everlasting. "How I am going to be everlasting," they do not think of it. You see?

This one word can give so many volumes of thoughts to the real philosopher, to the real thinker. Here it is sta . . . stated that the living entity is everlasting, and where is that living entity everlasting? Why it is not so? This is the problem.

Viṣṇujana: "It is said that the soul is invisible, inconceivable." (BG 2.25)

Prabhupāda: Yes, invisible. That is a fact. I am soul, you are soul, but I cannot see with these eyes. I am seeing your body. Just like I am seeing my son or husband or brother, and as soon as my son or husband or son, anyone, dies, "Oh, my son is gone." Where has your son gone? He's lying here. Why do you say gone? "No, he's gone. He's gone." Then what is that son? Have you ever seen him? That is the problem. He has never seen his son or husband. He has seen this body as husband or son or father. Therefore invisible.

You cannot see even a small particle of soul which is spiritual; you want to see God immediately without preparing your eyes? Just see. They want to see God. They cannot see even the small particle of God, the soul, and they want to see immediately God.

Yes, one can see God—but not immediately. You have to prepare your eyes. You'll see God, you'll see soul, everything. Everything will be visible. At the present moment it is invisible because we have got material eyes. With material eyes we cannot see anything spiritual. It is blocked.

Go on.

Viṣṇujana: "Knowing this, you should not grieve for the body." (BG 2.25)

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because we cannot see. Just like the same example. A man is dead, his relative is crying. He says he's gone. He's still seeing. The body is there. That means he has never studied who is his relative. Then . . . at least, he must know after death that the body is not my relative. Something else beyond this body.

Viṣṇujana: Purport: "As described above, the magnitude of the soul is such that for our material calculation he cannot be detected even by the most powerful microscope. Therefore he is invisible. As far as his existence is concerned, nobody can establish his experimental stability beyond the proof of śruti, or Vedic wisdom."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, here Kṛṣṇa says that "Don't care for this body. There is soul." That is śruti. Śruti means you hear from Kṛṣṇa; then you understand. Otherwise there is no possibility to understand. The same example, as I have several times said, that who is your father? That you can under(stand) simply by hearing from your mother. That's all.

The mother says, "He is your father." What is the evidence? Hearing from the mother. That's all. Similarly anything spiritual, spiritual identity, spiritual God, spiritual kingdom, you have to learn simply by hearing from authorities. There is no other process. There is no other, second process. Simply you have to hear.

Just the same example: Who is your father, you have to simply believe your mother. Even if he . . . of course, it is not expected that she'll give a false information. Understanding the mother is nice, she'll give me. So that is the only way. You have to believe your mother, and that's all.

Similarly, if you want to understand anything spiritual, you have to take information by hearing from such authorities as Kṛṣṇa or His representative, and there is no other alternative. Other alternative, it will ever remain invisible and not understandable and so many things, negative.

Yes.

Viṣṇujana: "We have to accept this truth . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Viṣṇujana: ". . . because there is no other source for understanding the existence of the soul, although it is a fact by perception. There are many things we have to accept solely on grounds of superior authority."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Viṣṇujana: "No one can deny the existence of his father based on the authority of his mother. There is no other source for understanding . . ."

Prabhupāda: Now everyone knows that, "When I am born, there must have been somebody my father." This is the conclusion. "And now, who is my father?" That is evidence to be taken from mother. Similarly, nobody can deny the existence of God, because everything has got a father, generator.

So therefore this whole creation, there must be a generator. Now how we can see the father? Through the mother, Vedas. That's all. As we understand our father through the mother, similarly, through the mother of Vedic knowledge you can understand what is God.

Go on.

Viṣṇujana: "Similarly, there is no other source of understanding the soul except by studying the Vedas. In other words, the soul is inconceivable to human experimental knowledge. The soul is consciousness, and consciousness, that also is the statement of the Vedas, and we have to accept that. Unlike the bodily changes there is no change for the soul. As eternally unchangeable, he remains atomic always in comparison to the infinite Supreme Soul."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Unchangeable means . . . the Māyāvāda theory is that, "Now I am finite. I shall become infinite." That's wrong. How you can be? Eternal. Eternally finite, you'll eternally remain infinite. You cannot be equal with God, the infinite. That is not possible. You'll have to re . . . (indistinct) . . . remain as subordinate.

Go on.

Viṣṇujana: "The Supreme Soul is infinite and the atomic soul is infinitesimal. Therefore the infinitesimal soul, being unchangeable, can never become equal to the infinite soul."

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is a common sense argument. How it can be? If it is equal to the infinite, how he has become finite? They cannot answer. The impersonalist cannot answer. How he has become finite? They'll simply . . . the answer is, "It is māyā." Then māyā is greater than the infinite? Then māyā becomes greater than the infinite.

Then that God is no more infinite, because māyā covers the Supreme, so how He is infinite? He becomes finite. The common sense is that finite Brahman is covered by māyā, not the infinite. Therefore duality: finite and infinite living entities. Kṛṣṇa is infinite, and the ordinary living entities . . .

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Devotee: (indistinct) . . .

Prabhupāda: Hmmm?

Viṣṇujana: Ice cream truck.

Prabhupāda: Oh, ice cream. (laughter) You are taking ice cream? Huh?

Viṣṇujana: No. They go up and down the street.

Prabhupāda: Canvassing?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Don't take ice cream.

(laughs)

This is māyā. (laughter)

"Come on, come on, enjoy me. Come on, come on, enjoy me." (laughs) As soon as you enjoy, you become entrapped. That's all. Just like fishing tackle. They throw the tackle and invite the fish, "Come on, come on, enjoy me. Come on, come on, enjoy me." As soon as—ap! (laughter) Finished. Then, (sound imitating fish) "Where you go now? Come on in my bag. Yes, I'll fry you nicely." You see?

So these are all explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. The fish is losing his life by eating, by tongue. He cannot check the dictation of the tongue; therefore he is losing his life. You see? Similarly the animals, deer, in the jungle, the hunter, they play very nice flute, and all of them assemble to hear how he's nice, and then he keeps him in the trap, loses his life. That means hearing. Tasting, hearing.

And the elephant is caught by sexual . . . do you know how elephant is captured? Yes. A she-elephant is trained, goes to the male elephant, and it follows, and the male elephant is dropped into a, what is called, big pot, pit. Yes. Then he remains there for some time. Then he's shackled and he's taken away. In this way there are different examples of senses. The, what is called? That black, what is called, bhramara? English? That black big fly? (makes buzzing sound) Onnnhhh.

Madhudviṣa: Bumblebee?

Prabhupāda: It may be.

Revatīnandana: Horsefly.

Prabhupāda: It is entrapped by smelling lotus flower, within the lotus flower, and loses its life. So by different sense gratification, the different kinds of animals, they are losing their life. And we have got all our senses active. So where we are? These examples are for animal kingdom, whose one sense is only active. But our all senses are active. Then what is our position? You see? This example is given in the Bhāgavata.

A man has got six wives, and he has entered the house, and all the wives have captured him: "You come to my room." You see? So one has taken his one hand, another has taken another hand, one has taken his one leg, one has taken . . . so he's like this: "Where shall I go?" You see? So this is our position. Human being, whether they shall control the senses . . . instead of controlling the senses, they are becoming servant of senses and losing their this great opportunity of human life.

Yes.

Viṣṇujana: People that are concerned with advancing to the higher planets, do they have more opportunity to become entrapped?

Prabhupāda: No. Anyone within this material world, they are entrapped by this sense enjoyment—either in higher planets or lower planets. Just like animal kingdom there is sense impetus, and human being also. What this human being? We are civilized being, what we are doing? The same thing: eating, sleeping, mating.

The same thing as the dog is doing. So anywhere in the material world, either in the higher planet or in the lower planet, this sense gratification is prominent. Only in the spiritual world there is no sense gratification. There is simply an endeavour to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. That . . .

Here everyone is trying to satisfy his senses. That is the law of material world. That is material life. So long you try to satisfy your senses, that is your material life. And as soon as you turn yourself to satisfy the senses of Kṛṣṇa, that is your spiritual life. It's a very simple thing. Instead of satisfying . . . Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanam (CC Madhya 19.170). That is bhakti.

You have got senses. You have to satisfy. Senses, with senses you have to satisfy. Either you satisfy yourself . . . but you do not know. The conditioned soul do not . . . (indistinct) . . . soul does not know that satisfying the Kṛṣṇa's senses, his senses will be automatically satisfied. The same example: just like pouring water to the root . . . or these fingers, part and parcel of my body, giving foodstuff here to the stomach, automatically the fingers will be satisfied.

This secret we are missing. We are thinking we shall be happy by trying to satisfy our senses. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means don't try to satis . . . for satisfy your senses. You try to satisfy the senses of Kṛṣṇa; automatically your senses will be satisfied. This is the secret of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The opposite party, they are thinking, "Oh, why shall I satisfy? Why shall I work for Kṛṣṇa the whole day and night? Let me try for the karmīs."

Just like you are working whole day and night for Kṛṣṇa, they are thinking, "What fools they are. We are very intelligent. We are working for our own sense gratification whole day and night, and why they are working for Kṛṣṇa?" This is the difference between materialist and spiritualist. The spiritualist's endeavour is to work whole day and night strenuously, without any hurt, simply for Kṛṣṇa. That is spiritual life. And the materialist means the same endeavour, always trying to satisfy their personal senses. That is the difference, materialistic and spiritual.

So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means that we have to train our senses to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. That's all. So long in other, previous, many, many thousands and millions of lives, we have simply tried to satisfy our senses, personal senses. Let this life be dedicated for satisfying Kṛṣṇa's senses. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

One life. We have, several lives, we have tried to satisfy our personal senses. Let this life, at least one life, let me try, what happens. So we are not loser. Even we feel inconveniences by not satisfying our senses, but we are not loser. Try simply to satisfy Kṛṣṇa's senses; then it will be all right.

So we shall stop. What is the time?

Devotee: Seven o'clock.

Prabhupāda: All right. Stop. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (devotees offer obeisances)

Madhudviṣa: Prabhupāda? We're reading about the Sixth Chapter in Bhagavad-gītā now. And should I wait until you come to that chapter, or could I ask you a question now pertaining to that chapter?

Prabhupāda: As you like.

Madhudviṣa: It mentions dhyāna (pronounces "dahayana) and rāja-yoga in that chapter. Can you explain the meaning of these two yogas?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Madhudviṣa: Dahyana. D-h-y-a-n-a.

Prabhupāda: Dhyāna. Dhyāna-yoga, meditation.

Madhudviṣa: That's meditation. And is rāja-yoga the same?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Madhudviṣa: Both meditation processes?

Bīrabhadra: You said in your lecture that everybody . . . I think that's what you said, that everybody in the material world . . . world is . . . um . . . um . . . um . . . um . . . in mā . . . in māyā but not you. You can't be in māyā.

Prabhupāda: How do you think? What do you think?

Bīrabhadra: You . . . you . . . You're spiritual, so you can't be in māyā. So how does that work?

Prabhupāda: How do you think that I am not in māyā?

Bīrabhadra: Because you're a pure devotee. You see Kṛṣṇa in everybody.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Then a pure devotee is not in māyā. Do you agree to that?

Bīrabhadra: Uh-huh.

Prabhupāda: So are you going to be a pure devotee?

Bīrabhadra: Me?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bīrabhadra: I'm not a pure devotee.

Prabhupāda: But you are going to be, trying to be.

Bīrabhadra: I try to be.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's all right. That's all right.

Yes?

Devotee: In the Bhagavad-gītā it says that we are one . . . that spirit soul, I, spirit soul, am one ten-thousandth of the tip of a hair.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Devotee: We are very small. One ten-thousandth part of a hair. Well, since we are unchangeable, does Kṛṣṇa change His size to be the same size as us so that we can associate with Him when we go back to the spiritual world?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Govinda dāsī: Prabhupāda? Is it true that you once said something about the Supersoul being the size of the thumb? Where is that information or authority? He's the size of the thumb in human being?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śrīmatī: In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta you wrote that Kṛṣṇa has no arms or legs as we have arms and legs, and His spiritual body is . . . (indistinct) . . . and the other is the same. The spiritual body and . . .

Prabhupāda: He has got spiritual arms, spiritual legs. I never said that He has no arms and legs.

Śrīmatī: It said that He has no arms and legs as we know arms and legs.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the statement in the Vedas. Apāni-pādo javano grahīta (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 3.19). The Supreme Lord has no legs and hands, but still, He accepts whatever we offer. Now we are accepting, we are offering here foodstuff, Kṛṣṇa. So it is confirmed that He accepts. Now He is . . . we do not know how far away He is staying, in Vaikuṇṭhaloka. There is no limit of measurement. Then how He's accepting? It is said that javana, He is accepting the our offerings. So He must be accepting with His hand. So He can stretch His hand so many millions and trillions miles away.

Therefore when it is said that He has no hand, that means He has no hand like us, limited. But that does not mean He has no hand. He has hand unlimited. Unlimitedly He can stretch. That we cannot conceive. Because we have got this three-feet hand, so Kṛṣṇa must have at least four-feet. That's all. That frog philosophy. (laughter)

Simply imagining, "Ah, Kṛṣṇa may be very great. So we have got this three-feet; Kṛṣṇa, let Him have six-feet. That's all." But we cannot imagine how long His hand is. Therefore His hand cannot be compared with this material hand. He has no material hand. That is the version of Vedas. But He has a hand. That you cannot measure. Just like Arjuna could not measure when He showed the universal form.

So avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīm (BG 9.11) Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "Because I am moving amongst them as ordinary human being, they are thinking of Me as one of them." Paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ: "They do not know what is My background," paraṁ bhāvam. "Therefore they fail to understand Me." Mūḍha. Rascals, fools.

Everyone is trying to understand Kṛṣṇa from the angle of vision as he can understand. Kṛṣṇa is beyond that. Therefore His name is Adhokṣaja, "beyond the limit." He can simply be presented by Himself, revealed. Just like Kṛṣṇa is revealing Himself to Arjuna. Arjuna is not understanding Kṛṣṇa by his philosophical speculation. Directly Kṛṣṇa revealing.

This is the process of understanding God. You cannot create your imagination, imaginative God. No. God reveals unto you, being pleased upon you by your devotional activities. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.234).

Just like Kṛṣṇa says to Arjuna, bhakto 'si priyo 'si (BG 4.3): "You are My very dear friend, you are My devotee. Therefore I'll reveal unto you. Not to others." This is the qualification of understanding God: to become devotee.

So our movement is to make people in general devotee. Then he'll understand God. Then his life will be successful. That's all. You be yourself devotee and try to make others devotee. Then both your life and the person who is under your instruction, he, everyone is successful. And without being devotee, you cannot make others devotee.

That is also a secret. If you remain nondevotee, you cannot convince others. That is not in your power. Therefore the nondevotee class of men, they cannot understand God, they cannot convince others about God. That's a fact. They'll simply present hodge-podge thing; they do not understand clearly, and they present hodge-podge. That's all.

Without being . . . Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). "If anyone . . . (indistinct) . . . tries . . . wants to understand Me as I am . . ." Of course, nobody can understand Kṛṣṇa as He is; still, as far as possible. That is only through bhakti. Bhaktyā, it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. It doesn't say that through knowledge, philosophical speculation or through haṭha-yoga system. No. He says bhaktyā, clearly. And in the beginning also He says: "Because you are My bhakta, therefore I shall reveal to you."

The whole science is for the devotee, not for anyone else. Those who are not devotees, their understanding of God is blocked forever. They cannot understand. It is a fact. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, māyāvādī-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa (CC Madhya 6.169): If anyone tries to understand these impersonalist Māyāvādī philosophers, then his, I mean to say, progress is blocked for good. Not for good, of course. Nothing can be for good. But for the present, at least, his progress is blocked. Sarva-nāśa.

Chant. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) (end)