661116 - Lecture BG 09.02-4 - New York

Lectures by Date, 1966

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

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661116BG.NY - November 16, 1966

Prabhupāda:

aprārabdha-phalaṁ pāpaṁ

kūtaṁ bījaṁ phalonmukham

krameṇaiva pralīyante

viṣṇu-bhakti-ratātmanā

(Padma Purāṇa)

"One who is engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then all his reactions of past sinful activities, gradually they become vanquished." There are different stages. Just like I have infected some, I mean, say, for cholera today. Immediately cholera does not take place. After two or three days the cholera appears. It takes some time. Just like if you sow a seed of a tree, immediately it does not become a tree and gives its fruits, delivers its fruit. It takes some time.

Therefore, imperceptibly, or knowingly or unknowingly, we are doing so many sinful activities. So they are in the seedling stage, then growing stage. Then, when we suffer, that is called prārabdha. Prārabdha means, "Now receive the result." So in this way we are creating, we are sowing, some seeds. That will take its reaction, either in this body or another body. It takes time to fructify. So . . . but if we act in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then it is just like fried seed. Fried seed, if you sow in a land, it will not fructify, fried seed.

So this fried seed . . . our activities can be made a fried seed by the fire of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So there will be no reaction. Pratyakṣāvagamaṁ dharmyaṁ susukhaṁ kartum avyayam (BG 9.2). Susukham, very pleasant. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ (SB 7.5.23).

This devotional service is not very unpleasant, it is very pleasant. You very melodiously sing with instruments, and somebody will participate in hearing, śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ. Of course, it must be in relationship with the Supreme Lord, not ordinary music. We take the advantage of musical science, but we don't sing any ordinary song. We glorify the Supreme Lord. But we enjoy; therefore it is happy.

Then again, śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇam. Now, what you are hearing from Bhagavad-gītā, if you remember it at home that, "Swāmījī was spok . . . speaking like this, and how does it apply in my life?" . . . we should remember this. We should not forget just after leaving this place. And if there is any question, any doubt, we should place before this assembly. I am inquiring. I am inviting you for any question, because we are trying to understand a very nice and great science. So it should be understood with all critical study. We don't request you to take it or accept it blindly.

So śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇam. And pāda-sevanam. Pāda-sevanam means to rise early in the morning, open the door of temple and wipe it out, all the dust, and give some light. The pāda-sevanam. Arcanaṁ vandanam: Then there is foodstuff offered. It is cooked for Kṛṣṇa, and decorate with flower. So many things there are, arcana-vidhi. The Deity will look very nice, and you'll be pleased to see it. We, we want to see very beautiful things. When you see the beautiful Deity, the forms of Lord Kṛṣṇa, you'll forget to see anymore any other beauty. You see?

These are the process, very nice, susukham. There is no trouble. Decorate with flower, with dress, with ornaments, and see and hear and eat very . . . you offer very nice foodstuff to Kṛṣṇa and then partake it. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam arcanaṁ vandanam. Vandanam means prayer. Of course, if you do not like, if you think, "This is Hindu system. We won't accept. We are Christian," all right, you go to church, sing there. You have got also songs of Bible. You can sing very nicely. So smaraṇaṁ vandanam.

So there is no difference between this process or that process. Simply we are teaching that, "Become God conscious." God is neither Hindu nor Muslim nor Christian. He's God. And we are also not Hindu and Muslim or Christian. This is our bodily designations. We are all pure, part and parcel of the Supreme. As God is pure, so we are also pure.

So we have fallen in this turmoil of this material ocean, and there is tossing of the waves. So we are suffering. We don't identify with the tossing of the waves, because I have nothing to do with this tossing. I simply pray, "Kṛṣṇa, please pick me up from these tossing waves. Some way or other, I am fallen here."

ayi nanda-tanuja patitaṁ kiṅkaraṁ

māṁ viṣame bhavāmbudhau

kṛpayā tava pāda-paṅkaja-

sthita-dhūlī-sadṛśaṁ vicintaya

(CC Antya 20.32, Śikṣāṣṭaka 5)

"O my dear Kṛṣṇa, somehow or other, I forgot You, and I am fallen in this . . ." As soon as I forget Kṛṣṇa, this māyā, or illusion, ocean of illusion, is there. It at once captures me. That is my position. So anyway, Kṛṣṇa has prescribed this devotional service, very nice. You can very happily perform. Susukhaṁ kartum avyayam (BG 9.2).

Śravaṇādike apaśyamāne tasmin sa tad-viṣaye puruṣottamaḥ, aham ādir bhavāmi. It is said that Kṛṣṇa appears . . . when we chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare / Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare, this sound is nondifferent from Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, when you vibrate this sound, this means this sound, Kṛṣṇa, and the original Kṛṣṇa, the same, identical. So you are not only dancing, but Kṛṣṇa is also dancing with you.

If you say that, "Why don't you . . . why do I not see Him?" Yes. Seeing is not . . . why do you stress on seeing? Why not hearing? Seeing, hearing, tasting, touching—these are our instruments for experience. That's all. Knowledge. Why you are so much, I mean to say, I mean to say, important about seeing? A devotee does not wish to see Kṛṣṇa. He simply . . . he's satisfied simply by hearing of Kṛṣṇa. As seeing is also experience, so hearing also experience. That I have explained many times. Seeing and hearing. Hearing also . . . something you cannot see, you can hear only. Just like the, when the air, wind passes very violently, you cannot see it, but you can hear. But you get the experience.

So seeing is not only experience, but hearing is also experience. When you hear the sound of the wind, "ohnnhnn-shawh-shawh," you say: "Oh, today wind is very violently blowing." You can feel, but you don't see the air. So don't stress on seeing only. There are so many senses. You hear. We can perceive the presence of God, or Kṛṣṇa, by hearing. By hearing. And He's there, present. He's there, present. He says, Kṛṣṇa says that:

nāhaṁ tiṣṭhāmi vaikuṇṭhe

yogināṁ vā hṛdaye ca

yatra gāyanti mad-bhaktā

tatra tiṣṭhāmi nārada

(Padma Purāṇa)

He says that, "I, I am not actually in My abode, Kṛṣṇaloka; neither I am in the heart of the yogīs who are meditating. But I am present in there where My pure devotees are singing. Singing." Yes, Kṛṣṇa says that. So you can feel the presence of Kṛṣṇa as we make progress in this line.

Sutradi-vyapa-matram tulasī-patra ambuki-matra upakara ca. And it is very easy also. Arcanam. Arcanam. Now, Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā that you have to offer something out of your love. Love means you must give something. You are taking something from Kṛṣṇa; why not give something? Is it love, simply going on taking, taking, taking, and no offering? We are taking from Kṛṣṇa so much light. We are taking from Kṛṣṇa so much air, so much water.

So many things Kṛṣṇa is supplying for our subsistence—fruits, grains. Without supplied by Kṛṣṇa, you cannot have. You cannot manufacture all these things. So you must admit that God is supplying us so many things. And why not offer something? Is it love?

Therefore offering is required. Love means you take and you give also. Suppose if you love somebody—you simply take from him, but you don't give—oh, do you think it is very good? No. It is not good. That is not love. That is exploitation. If I go on simply taking from you, and if I don't offer you anything, that is simply exploitation. So love means you must take, you must give. Dadāti pratigṛhṇāti bhuṅkte, bhuṅkte bhojayate (Upadeśāmṛta 4).

You must eat, and you must give to eat. Simply don't go on eating kṛṣṇa-prasāda, but give something to Kṛṣṇa for eating.

So that . . . it is a system in India that if somebody's invited to take prasāda, he takes something, some fruits, some sweetmeats, something, and offers to the Deity. Of course, that is distributed amongst the prasāda, but it is the system. When a, when a man goes to see a saintly person or goes to a temple, he takes some fruit, as far as he, as he can acquire. So giving and taking, eating and feeding. Dadāti pratigṛhṇāti bhuṅkte bhojayate, guhyam ākhyāti pṛcchati ca (Upadeśāmṛta 4).

Guhyam ākhyāti pṛcchati. You have to hear Bhagavad-gītā and, if you have got any distress, you have got any confidential thing, you have to submit to Kṛṣṇa, "Kṛṣṇa, I am in suffering this way. I am fallen in this tossing ocean of material illusion. Kindly save me. I can understand now that I have no identification with this material world. I am simply put here." Just like if I am put into the Atlantic Ocean, I have no identification with the ocean, but I am subjected to the tossing waves of the ocean. Similarly, we are spiritual spark, fragmental part of Kṛṣṇa. Some way or other, we are put into this material ocean, and there is tossing.

So I am being tossed. Don't identify. Don't try to solve the tossing. That is not possible. If you want to make solution of the tossing waves of the Atlantic Ocean when you are fallen there, it is useless foolishness. That is not possible. Don't be foolish in that way. That will go on. That is Atlantic Ocean's nature. You cannot stop it. You have to get out of it.

The foolish people, they are trying to adjust this world and be happy. That is not . . . that is a first-class foolishness. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14).

They will never be able to make a solution of this material world.

(break) . . . do not accept this principle of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the result is that they do not go back to Godhead, but remain in this material world for continuous struggle for existence.

Dharmasya iti, imaṁ bhakti-lakṣaṇaṁ dharmam. This . . . this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is also a principle of religion. Religion . . . religion means which has connection with God. Without any connection with God, oh, that is not accepted as religion. Religion, generally understood: searching after God, understanding about God, relationship with God. This is religion. Atheism is not religion. Atheism, not religion.

Religion means . . . so this is, Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . because persons who are acting for transcendental loving service of the Supreme Lord, they are called Kṛṣṇa conscious, so it has connection with God. Therefore it is religion, dharma. And how a religion is accepted? Religion accepted from authorized source. Just like Vedic religion, Bible religion, because they have got source from authority. Śruti-pramāṇa. Śruti-pramāṇa religion. You cannot manufacture religion. It must be according to the Vedic rules or authorized scriptures.

In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19): "Dharma, religion, means it is the law of God." Just like state laws. You cannot manufacture any law. If you make some by-laws . . . just like for your Society you make some by-laws. That is to be sanctioned by this Society registration under religious regulation, as we have registered. But you cannot make any law without any sanction. Similarly, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam. If you want to create some principle of religion, then it must be sanctioned by the Vedic authority.

So this Bhagavad-gītā is also religion. It is accepted by authorities, great authorities just like Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī and Lord Caitanya, all authorities of India. Śaṅkarācārya. Those who are accepted as the religious heads of Indian culture, all of them accepted this Bhagavad-gītā as principle of religion, and Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So there is no doubt about it. And so far outsiders, they also take it, this book, as book of authority, book of knowledge, and they have studied very serious study of this book. They write commentaries—great scholars, great philosophers. So it is also a dharma.

But, but there are persons, in spite of its acceptance by the ācāryas and scholars, they have no faith. They do not think that it is a book of authority or book of knowledge. Aśraddadhānāḥ. They have no faith. They think that it is simply aggravating or exaggeration or a person who is known as Kṛṣṇa and His principle. So therefore they have no faith. Dhīra vrsatvena tam bhinna mataḥ śruti-mātra eva. Śruti-mātra means it is simply praising some principle. That's all. In this way it is not accepted by everyone.

Kṛṣṇa points out them: aśraddadhānāḥ puruṣā dharma, dharmasya asya (BG 9.3). This principle of religion, those who do not accept it as authority, so the result is that they can never have any connection directly with Kṛṣṇa, and as, as such, aprāpya mām, because they do not have any access to Kṛṣṇa, therefore nivartante, they remain. Nivartante means remain. Where does . . . do they remain? Mṛtyu-saṁsāra, mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani, this life—birth, death, birth, death, birth, death. Vartmani means this life: birth, death, birth, death. Go on like that.

And that birth, death does not mean that next birth you will have similar facilities or similar life, human being. No. Birth-death means you have risk also. You can get your next birth not exactly a human being. You . . . not exactly in America or not exactly in India. Oh, you may be transferred to any other country or any other planet or any other species of life. There is no certainty. That will depend according to your work.

So this is the . . . this is called the path of birth and death. Mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani. Have your birth, remain for some time, enjoy or suffer. Then again give up this body and enter into the womb of another mother, human being or animal. Then prepare your another body. Then come out. Then begin your work. This is called mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani.

If anyone wants to avoid this path of birth and death, this risk, then they must take to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is not my version. The Lord says Himself. If you want to study Bhagavad-gītā seriously, then here is a point. Here is a point. If you read Bhagavad-gītā as a matter of relaxation, that is different thing. But if you want to take benefit out of Bhagavad-gītā, this instruction is very much important.

aśraddadhānāḥ puruṣā

dharmasyāsya parantapa

aprāpya māṁ nivartante

mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani

(BG 9.3)

Mṛtyu-saṁsāra means this path of regularly, as we are passing on.

ahany ahani lokāni

gacchanti yama-mandiram

śeṣaḥ sthitam icchanti

kim āścaryam ataḥ param

(Mahābhārata, Vana-parva 297.116)

Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja, he was asked, "What is the most wonderful thing in the world?" He replied—he was very learned king—"Yes. The most learned thing . . . most wonderful thing in the world . . ." You, you have heard seven wonderful things in the world. So Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja said, ahany ahani lokāni gacchanti yama-mandiram. Ahani, ahany ahani means daily, every day, every moment. At least every day we see so many death list. If we go to the crematorium ground, we can see. So ahany ahani lokāni gacchanti yama-mandiram, śeṣaḥ sthitam icchanti. But those who are still alive, they think, "Oh, death will not take place. I'll live. I'll live."

He does not think that he . . . you are also subjected to this principle of dying. But he does not take it seriously. This is called illusion, māyā. He thinks, oh, that "I shall live forever. Therefore let me do whatever I like. There is no question of responsibility." Oh, this is very risky life. Very risky life. And this is the most covering part of illusion.

One should be very serious that death is waiting. "As sure as death." If there is any surety in this world, that is death. Nobody can avoid it. And when there is death, oh, there is no more intelligence, no more your puffed-up philosophy. You are under the grip of nature. Prakṛti . . . prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sar (BG 3.27).

At that time you are not this stout and strong body, that you don't care for anything. Then you are that smallest, fragmental portion. So you are just under the material atmosphere, so under the mercy of the material nature. And that material nature will give you some kind of body for which you are fit. Then again begin your work. This is the position.

So if we want to take that risk, then go on, Kṛṣṇa says. But if you don't . . . want to avoid this risk, then take Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is no alternative.

aśraddadhānāḥ puruṣā

dharmasyāsya parantapa

aprāpya māṁ nivartante

mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani

(BG 9.3)

This is mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani. Then He says what is this material world. Māyā . . . you should note it that this Ninth Chapter of the Bhagavad-gītā is specially meant for the devotees, especially meant for the devotees, those who have accepted Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise, it will appear something else. It is confidential. Because in the beginning it has been said that rāja-vidyā rāja-guhyam (BG 9.2).

It is very confidential, the most confidential part of knowledge of the Bhagavad-gītā. Unless one accepts Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, it will be difficult. They will think, "Oh, why? If Kṛṣṇa . . . if I do not accept Kṛṣṇa, then why there will be so much risk? Oh, this is all exaggeration." But actually, it is not. Therefore this rāja-guhyam, the most confidential part of this knowledge, means that one who has accepted Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme and has become a devotee, has engaged himself in His service, actually, seriously, for them, rāja-guhyam, most confidential.

mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ

jagad avyakta-mūrtinā

mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni

na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ

(BG 9.4)

Now, Kṛṣṇa says that, "This world, what you see, this is also My energy." Mayā. Mayā means "by Me." Just like if I say: "This work has been done by me," so that does not mean that there is no existence of me, and because I have done this work, so I am finished. Here it is called "by Me," mayā. Mayā means "by Me." Anything you do, it is done by you. Anything done by me, it is done by me.

But that, when I finish the work . . . suppose I start a business, very nice business, very profitable business, big factory. And if I say that "This factory is started and is conducted by me," does it mean that I am lost? Does it mean I am lost? No. I am there. But it is done by my energy. This big factory . . . just like the Ford factory I have seen in your country, a very big factory. There are so many big factories. If the proprietor says, "It is done by me," that "done by me," that person is exist, although the factory is also exist. It does not meant that because he has finished, because he has started that factory, big factory, he's finished, his existence is not there.

Similarly, if we say . . . Kṛṣṇa says that, "This, whatever this world you see, it is done by Me," does it mean that He becomes no more? This is very simple thing. Why God should be imperson? Just take the same example: If some very good businessman says: "It is done by me," it is to be understood that by his brain, by his energy, by his capital, by his intelligence, he has done all these things. But he remains. It is very simple truth.

Similarly, it is said here, mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta-mūrtinā (BG 9.4). This, this world, this material world, if you want to see God, God is everywhere because it is His energy. It is His energy. Just like in the Ford factory, the worker, they see in every corner Mr. Ford, in every corner of the factory; similarly, those who are conversant with this science that what is this material world, they can see in every atom the Supreme Lord, Kṛṣṇa. It is simply question of knowledge, so who has made it. If I am confident that Kṛṣṇa has made it, then I can feel Kṛṣṇa's presence everywhere.

Therefore everything resting . . . rests in Kṛṣṇa. Everything rests in Kṛṣṇa. Mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta-mūrtinā, mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni (BG 9.4): "Everything is resting on Me." And na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ: "But I am not there. I am not there." If you think that if Kṛṣṇa, this table is resting in Kṛṣṇa, therefore Kṛṣṇa must be here, but Kṛṣṇa says: "Then I am not there. I am not there." The same thing. Because Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's energy is nondifferent, still, energy is not Kṛṣṇa.

Just like the sun and the sunshine: there is no difference, but the sunshine is not the sun. If sunshine is present in your room through the holes of your windows, do you think the sun is also within your room? No. If sun becomes within room, then you'll not exist. The heat is so exorbitant that it . . . you cannot exist. Therefore it is sufficient that his rays, the sun's ray, is there.

Similarly, whatever we see . . . parasya brahmaṇaḥ śaktiḥ. It is very nicely explained in Viṣṇu Purāṇa. Parasya brahmaṇaḥ śaktiḥ. Parasya means the Supreme; brahmaṇaḥ means the Absolute Truth. It is His energy. It is His energy. Just like the sun is shining all over the universe from one place, similarly, Kṛṣṇa, although He is just like a person like you and me, but His energy is acting everything. This is explained in Bhagavad-gītā. Mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta-mūrtinā. This is avyakta-mūrti. In the energy you cannot find Kṛṣṇa in His person, just like in the sunshine you cannot find the sun-god. But the sun-god is there in the sun planet, sun disc, within that. You cannot say "No," because you have no experience of the sun disc. But we can understand from books of authorities like Vedas there is sun-god. There is sun . . . that Kṛṣṇa said. We have read in the Fourth Chapter:

imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ

proktavān aham avyayam

vivasvān manave prāha

manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt

(BG 4.1)

"I . . . first of all I said this Bhagavad-gītā to sun-god, Vivasvān." Vivasvān means the sun . . . the present sun-god is called Vivasvān. His name is Vivasvān. Just like there are many kings, just there are many sun-gods also. They also change, because there is death. There is death. They may be living for so many hundreds and millions of years, but there is death. So present sun-god, who is existing there, his name is also there in the Bhagavad-gītā; Vivasvān.

So if you believe Bhagavad-gītā, then you have to believe that there is a sun-god whose name is Vivasvān. If you don't believe, then why you take so much trouble to read Bhagavad-gītā? If you have no faith in it, then what is the use of reading it? And if you have faith in it, then you have to believe. There is sun-god. In every planet there is a predominating feature predominant. So similarly, over and above all of them, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (Bs 5.1).

The Brahma-saṁhitā says that everywhere you'll find the īśvara. Īśvara means controller. In your New York City the Mr. Lindsay is the controller. And in New York State, Mr. Rockefeller, he is controller. In your United State, Mr. Johnson is the controller. Finish. Then you go to another state. And similarly, in every planet, every place, there is a controller. So sun-god is the controller of the sun planet.

You cannot imagine that there is no controller, it is vacant place. No. If in a New York City there is no vacant place—every place is valuable; it is occupied—how can you see . . . think of, that God's kingdom, so many planets, so many big . . . are vacant. No. Nothing vacant. Sarva-ga. Everywhere there are living entities, but there are different kinds of entities, not exactly like you.

So all this manifestation that we see, this is all energy. That is in the Seventh Chapter. We have already discussed there are two kinds of energies of Kṛṣṇa. One is spiritual energy, and one is material energy. Jīva, the living entities, they are also spiritual energies, but because they are sometimes entrapped by this material energy—they have got the potency, or they are prone to be attracted by the material energy—therefore they are called marginal energy. Otherwise, there are two energies only—spiritual energy and material energy. This material world is material energy, and we, the sparks of Kṛṣṇa, we are spiritual energy.

So this energy . . . just like the fire. Just like the lamp. It is in, localized in one place, but its light and heat is diffused. Similarly, parasya brahmaṇaḥ śaktiḥ sarvam akhilaṁ jagat (CC Madhya 20.110). Akhilaṁ jagat. Akhilam means the whole universe, whole manifestation, they are all simply manifestation of the Supreme Lord. The Lord says that. One who believes Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Lord, then he'll believe. He says, mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni.

Just like in the sunshine many planets, they are resting. It is a scientific fact. The all the planets, they are rotating due to the sun heat. Here there is a machine . . . what is called? We have seen. As soon as there is heat, within, the ball begins to rotate.

So everything resting. The weightlessness is due to the sunshine. Due to the sunshine. Similarly, everything—the sun, the universe—everything is resting on Kṛṣṇa-shine. Kṛṣṇa-shine. That is the answer how these so many worlds are floating in the air, that because they are under the Kṛṣṇa's energy. They are floating in the Kṛṣṇa's energy.

So mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni: "Everything is resting on Me, but don't think that I am finished because you cannot see there. I am here." Na cāhaṁ teṣu avasthitaḥ. It is not necessarily that we have to see everywhere. Ataḥ sa bhakti udi, uditam adbhūtam aiśvaryam ahaḥ. Now, this transcendental nature of God, all-potential nature of God, to a devotee it will give pleasure, and to a nondevotee it will be seeming like, oh, so many bluff is being spoken by Kṛṣṇa.

As soon as I become a nondevotee, I'll think all these statement as bluff given by Kṛṣṇa. And as soon as I am a devotee, oh, I'll think, "Oh, my Lord is so powerful." He becomes full with love and adoration. That is the difference. One who believes, he becomes, oh, puffed-up with pleasure, "Oh, my Lord is so powerful." And those who do not believe will say: "Oh, it is simply bluffing. Kṛṣṇa is a person, driving the chariot of Arjuna, and He says . . ." They are imitating. They are imitating. There are so many yogīs who say, "Oh, the sun, moon and everything is floating in me." Imitating.

They think that "If Kṛṣṇa . . . if Kṛṣṇa can say like that, I am that, I am also Kṛṣṇa, I am also God. So I can also say like that." But Kṛṣṇa can show the universal form. Will you please show me the univer . . .? "No, that I cannot." Oh, Kṛṣṇa lifted the hill in seven years old. Can you lift a one maund, or hundred pounds, with your finger? "Oh, that I cannot do."

That is the difference between the imitation God and real God. "Because Kṛṣṇa is saying, therefore I shall imitate and say." And because Kṛṣṇa performed rāsa-līlā . . . "Oh, Kṛṣṇa married sixteen thousand wives." "Oh, can you marry one and keep her very nicely in a palace?" "Oh, that I cannot do." Then how you can be Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa said so many things wonderful, and He acted also wonderful. If you believe one thing and do not believe another thing, then it is called ardha-kukkuṭī-nyāya (CC Ādi 5.176). Ardha-kukkuṭī-nyāya. You cannot believe half. If you believe, you believe full.

So for a devotee these informations of Kṛṣṇa, oh, become so . . . "My Kṛṣṇa is so God. Oh, my God is so powerful." And, I think, sometimes I recited one story. This is for very instructive, that Nārada Muni, he used to visit Nārāyaṇa every day. So when he was passing on the road, so one very learned Brāhmin, and taking thrice bath and everything very nicely, he asked Nārada Muni, "Oh, you are going to Lord. Will you enquire when I shall get my salvation?" "All right. I shall ask." And then another, cobbler, he was under the tree, sewing the shoes, old shoes. He also saw Nārada Muni. He also inquired, "Will you kindly enquire from God when my salvation is?"

Then when he inquired Kṛṣṇa, Nārāyaṇa . . . Nārada Muni goes generally to Nārāyaṇa, in another planet. So, "Yes, two, one Brāhmin and one cobbler, they inquired like this. So may I know what is their destination?" So Nārāyaṇa said, "Well, yes, the cobbler, this after giving up this body, he's coming here at Vaikuṇṭha." "And what about that Brāhmin?" "Oh, he has to remain there still so many births, or I do not know when he's coming."

So Nārada Muni was astonished that, "I saw that he's very nice Brāhmin, and he's a cobbler. Why is that?" So he inquired that, "I could not . . . I cannot understand the mystery. Why You say that cobbler is coming this, after this body, and why not this Brāhmin?" "Oh, that will, you'll understand. If they enquire that 'What Kṛṣṇa, or Nārāyaṇa, was doing in the . . . in His abode,' so just explain that He was taking one elephant from the holes of a," I mean to say, what is called . . .?

Devotee (1): The eye of a needle. Eye . . .

Prabhupāda: Eh? No, no . . .

Devotee (1): The eye of a needle.

Devotee (2): Needle.

Prabhupāda: Needle. Yes. "Through the hole of a needle, He's pulling an elephant this side and this side." You see? "All right." So when he again approached the Brāhmin, the Brāhmin said, "Oh, you have seen Lord?" "Yes." "So what was Lord doing?" "He was doing this: through the point of a needle He was pushing one elephant this way and that way." Yes. "Oh, therefore I have no faith in your . . . I, I, I have got all respect for your garb, but we don't believe all this nonsense." Then Nārada could understand, "Oh, this man has no faith. He simply reads book. That's all."

And when he went to the cobbler, he also asked, "Oh, you have seen? What Nārāyaṇa was doing?" He also said that, "He was doing like this . . ." Oh, he began to cry: "Oh, my Lord is wonderful. He can do anything." So Nārada inquired, "So do you believe that Lord can push one elephant through the holes of a needle?" "Oh, why not? I must believe." "Then what is your reason?" "Oh, my reason? I am sitting under this banyan tree, and so many fruits are falling daily, and in each fruit there are thousands of seeds, and each seed there is a tree. If in a small seed there can be big tree like that, is it very impossible to accept that Kṛṣṇa is putting one elephant through the, I mean, the holes of a needle? He has kept such a nice tree in the seed." So this is called belief.

The unbeliever and believer means the believers, they are not blind believers. They have reason. If by Kṛṣṇa's process, by God's process, or nature's process, such a big tree can be put within the small seed, is it very impossible for Kṛṣṇa to keep all these planets floating in His energy? So we have to believe. We have no other explanation. But we have to understand in this way. Our reasoning, our argument, our logic should go in this way.

So those who are devotee . . . just like the cobbler. He may be a cobbler. They believe everything. And those who are not devotee, they will say: "Oh, these are all bluffs. These are all bluffs." But they are not bluff. It is simply meant for the devotees. They can understand. The nondevotees, they cannot understand. Yes.

Thank you very much. Any question? (end)