Room Conversation -- December 31, 1976, Bombay
Prabhupāda: ...so glorious. Glorious. He's glorious. That's all right. But kaniṣṭha-adhikārī will imitate his behavior, but he is not fixed up. Therefore it is not good for him. He is forbidden. This is...
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's forbidden to hear from a nondevotee.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They will commit so many mistakes and they'll take it for granted. Just like this "Nitāi-Gaura, Rādhe-Śyāma." That is avoided for kaniṣṭha-adhikārī. There are so many mistakes, rasābhāsa. So two things are there always, two sides. One for the mahā-bhāgavata, one for the ordinary kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, madhyama-adhikārī. So in the temple it is to be supposed generally for the madhyama-adhikārī and kaniṣṭha-adhikārī especially. So in the temple we should not...
Hari-śauri: We should just listen to whatever the ācāryas have...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari-śauri: I remember once before, a few years ago, you sent a letter out saying that no one should try to compose songs or...
Prabhupāda: Yes. I do not encourage. What they will compose? They have no realization. But they're speaking something about Kṛṣṇa. That's his beginning. Just like a child, he speaks half-broken. That is not language. It has no meaning. But still the child, "Ah, ah, you are so nice. You are so nice." Because he's trying to speak something. "Papa, mama." And mama is... Not that his words are complete.
Hari-śauri: When we go out and preach and we just repeat or try to repeat whatever we've heard from the spiritual master, but we may not have fully realized what we're speaking about, does that somehow or another reduce the potency of the Gītā or the Bhāgavatam or...
Prabhupāda: Yes, realization takes time. Therefore there is no question of realization. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says you simply repeat as Kṛṣṇa says. That will save you. The so-called political leaders, they have no realization, but they manufacture their ideas. That is dangerous. Mislead themselves and others. In Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly said, ācāryopāsanam. Amānitvam adambhitvam. This is the process of knowledge. These so-called scholars and politicians, they have no ācārya. Instead of being amānitvam, they're mani... "I have become a leader, so whatever I shall say, it will be accepted." This is going on. Very bad. It is clearly said, as soon as you give up the ācārya system it is rotten. Sa kāleneha yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa. So things which is rotten, what you'll get benefit? That is going on. Therefore in spite of so many Gītā commentators, big, big leaders, scholars, not a single person is converted into a devotee. Not a single person amongst their followers. It's useless talking. Therefore it is forbidden. Avaiṣṇava-mukhodgīrṇaṁ pūtam... Because they are not Vaiṣṇava, politicians and—reject them immediately. Immediately. That is the injunction. I wrote Mahatma Gandhi that "You are so respectful. People have got... Now you have got your svarāja. Please take Bhagavad-gītā seriously and let us preach."
Dr. Patel: Raj Gopalacharya in his commentary, he has mentioned that Bhagavad-gītā should be learned through the ācāryas.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: As Gopalacharya has commented. He was a Vaiṣṇava.
Prabhupāda: Raj Gopalacharya was sensible man amongst the whole lot.
Dr. Patel: He was a Vaiṣṇava cult.
Prabhupāda: Yes, I know. Cakravarty. So (indistinct), I say that amongst the whole lot he was a sane man. Raj Gopalacharya. Because by culture he's a Vaiṣṇava. [break]
Prabhupāda: ...agreement with Jawaharlal Nehru.
Dr. Patel: He never was in agreement.
Prabhupāda: Not a single item. He therefore resigned. He wanted to form his own party.
Hari-śauri: Who's that, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Raj Gopalacharya.
Dr. Patel: If they had followed Raj Gopalacharya this country would have been far better in knowledge. Raj Gopalacharya. That is because he was paraṁ bhakta, to tell the truth, always.
Prabhupāda: Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate SB 5.18.12 . Therefore he was qualified. Anyway, if you are interested in Bhagavad-gītā, how you can misinterpret? How you can put your own words to mislead people? How much misleading this is.
Hari-śauri: Actually they're not interested in the Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: I knew all these things but what I am? I have no position.
Dr. Patel: But what you have commented is correct. And the Bhagavad-gītā, real thing is man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru BG 18.65 . Instead they directed their attention to karma and this and that. It was and similar thing...
Prabhupāda: But because they did not learn subject matter from ācārya. Yes. Ācārya, one has to learn from the ācārya.
Dr. Patel: Ācārya is one who ācāra, himself practices.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No. One who knows and practices. Ācinoti śāstra. One who knows the real purpose. And there is no difficulty of understanding the real purpose. It is clearly said, everything. The process of knowledge is given, amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam BG 13.8 . Where is that? In the beginning, "Oh, I am such a big leader, politician. Whatever I say is nice." Dambha. Dambha. Because he's thinking puffed-up falsely. Some rascal fools give them clap. (Prabhupāda claps) They think, "Oh, I have become very great."
Dr. Patel: Nowadays sir, they collect people to clap them.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No. They make such a speech and practice. One political leader, he is young man, he was saying in Hyderabad... He was ambassador in... That Rao?
Hari-śauri: Yes, Motilal Rao.
Prabhupāda: So he did not know. He said that "When I was going to be ambassador, Dr. Radhakrishnan, he told me that, "You first of all write a speech and practice it and deliver it very nicely. Then they will applaud." This is Dr. Radhakrishnan. They want simply applause. That's all. Because they know, "If the public applauds, then I keep my position. I am... Whatever nonsense I speak or whatever nonsense I... it doesn't matter."
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Public support.
Prabhupāda: Bas. That is their only business.
Hari-śauri: Some of them, they don't even write their own speeches. They have a professional script writer.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Professional writer and some speaker.
Dr. Patel: All of them. (indistinct)
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Even the President of the United States has a speech writer.
Prabhupāda: ...learned scholar, English licensed. We know that Madanmohan Malhotra. In those days Surendranath Bannerji was a great orator. You have heard his name? Surendranath Bannerji. He is the practically father of Indian nationalism. So he was I.C.S., and in those days English scholar, His father was big doctor. Dr. Dugdhachandra Bannerji. So his speech, this Madanmohan Malhotra used to rote, cram, and before a mirror he would speak like this. "Oh..." In this way he became a politician. He was smārta-brāhmaṇa and he became a politician. Simply by imitating Surendranath Bannerji's speech.
Dr. Patel: Even those who are with Baroda Maharaj and all Maharaj's speeches were written by (indistinct) so one can (indistinct) These are your ideas Maharaj, "Well, everyone knows that I am writing it. It doesn't matter. I won't correct it." All the speeches given by Maharaj of Baroda was written by (indistinct). All, all, practically all. Here's a reference there. And he was a great scholar after all.
Prabhupāda: Oh yes. He was English born. His father was medical man. Dr. Madanmohan Bannerji.
Dr. Patel: They say he did not know even Bengali properly.
Prabhupāda: Yes. How he can? He was born in England. Educated in England. He was English-born.
Dr. Patel: Then he became a master in Sanskrit. That is a great, I mean intelligent...
Prabhupāda: That may be. He was a scholar. They were big scholars. He was professor in Baroda University.
Dr. Patel: Professor of French and Philosophy.
Prabhupāda: There is one hall, Aurobindo Hall, in Baroda.
Dr. Patel: All followers of Aurobindo are Bengalis and Gujaratis.
Prabhupāda: Hm. No, there are others in foreign countries. He was scholar.
Dr. Patel: In the āśramas Bengalis, and Gujaratis will go fifty-fifty. There are some South Indians also there. You are from India? He had a very big following of Gujaratis.
Prabhupāda: Because he was first in Gujarat.
Dr. Patel: Baroda Maharaj, when he, when he did not appear in horse riding test, (indistinct) but he did not want to start the qualification (indistinct) So he came. So Baroda (indistinct) Maharaj knew he has came. Baroda Maharaj was in England then. He called him (indistinct). The same thing as the Britishers did at Baroda. That is, Baroda Maharaj was appreciated.
Prabhupāda: No, he was a person to be appreciated. There is no doubt. He had so many qualifications. But he was also doing yoga practice. When he was put into... No, after getting released from jail, twelve years. He was to be hanged.
Dr. Patel: C.R. Das.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: It was said that the man who was judge, was his classmate in Cambridge, Oxford, or something like that.
Prabhupāda: Maybe.
Dr. Patel: C.R. Das made a very good speech. I have read all about what he practicing yoga in jail when he was himself written when he came to the minister's court. He felt that everywhere was Kṛṣṇa. Everyone was... He was seeing Kṛṣṇa everywhere. That was his feeling. So he would not be punished by anybody. But God is everywhere. His brother was transported to the... He was to be hanged and then he was transported to (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: (indistinct). [break] This is the fact that yato mata tato patha? Whatever path you accept, that is all right? He said that. Do you think it is bona fide? Kṛṣṇa says mām ekam, and he approves anything.
Dr. Patel: He was a partial political leader also.
Prabhupāda: That's all. He's a political leader.
Dr. Patel: But then he had a great burning desire to see that India be free of British purpose. He was a real nationalist...
Prabhupāda: That even cats and dogs, they also want that my cats be well fed and strong. That is not a very good position. And Bhagavad-gītā says aratiḥ putra-dāra-gṛhādiṣu. This is philosophy. And if one is attached to his homely happiness he's not even a man of knowledge.
Dr. Patel: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: When Vivekananda came back from foreign tours, he brought three women and one woman was intimately connected with him.
Dr. Patel: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: You, you have seen yourself. Why there was no men in America? He came back...
Dr. Patel: I think he was a brahmacārī throughout.
Prabhupāda: You do not know. There is an old man... Some old woman, he said about he's connected.
Dr. Patel: Subash Candra Bose (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Marriage is good. But to keep illicit sex, that's the most sinful activity. Marriage is allowed. Dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi. That is not against.
Dr. Patel: Great number of luminaries have been produced by Bengal. Last year we read in Times of India more luminaries were produced in Bengal than any other...
Prabhupāda: No, Bengal... They maintained the culture. But therefore I say that Vivekananda broke that Bengali culture.
Dr. Patel: Bengali culture is fish-eating. Even brāhmaṇas eating.
Prabhupāda: No. They are eating fish only. Because Bengal is full of rivers. But not for all. Mass of people, that's a fact. But he introduced, "You can eat anything. It has nothing to do with religion." In Bengal in our childhood we have seen if anyone was habituated to take meat... Common man would not. Rich man. The rich men they have their sahis. Sahis you know, who takes care of the horse. So he would cook in the horse shed.
Dr. Patel: And eat there.
Prabhupāda: No. Then he'll bring the (indistinct) and eat it. It was never brought within the precincts of the house.
Dr. Patel: (indistinct) Gujarat and Maharastra (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: No, no... These people who were eating meat, they knew that "I am doing wrong." But Vivekananda approved, "No, it is not wrong. It is wrong. Whatever you like you can do." Then they began to eat meat. Fish they were already eating. Meat and chicken and eggs and everything.
Dr. Patel: All the sons of Vallabhācārya's followers are eating.
Prabhupāda: No, everyone is eating. I know that. Therefore our first regulation is you must give it up. Then we talk of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Dr. Patel: My son He does not even tomatoes, saying that if you red color.
Prabhupāda: Tomato was not taken.
Dr. Patel: No, no. That is what he says. I won't eat. He does not eat because his mother was 100% vegetarian and we would not allow even...
Prabhupāda: In our childhood no one would eat the tomato. It is not... It is red color, but everything vilāti. It is called vilāti begun. So no one would touch.
Hari-śauri: Tomato?
Prabhupāda: There was prejudice because it was brought from... Even potato. Strict Hindus would not take potato. Potato was imported from England. It was not produced... Just like Tulasī. Tulasī plant we have imported, exported. Similarly, so many things...
Dr. Patel: They have not allowed tulasī to be grown in America.
Prabhupāda: Oh no? Who said?
Dr. Patel: Mr. Shaheb, (indistinct) tulasī plant for his daughter.
Prabhupāda: No, we have got so many tulasī plants.
Hari-śauri: Every one of our centers has so many tulasīs.
Prabhupāda: Every temple we have got big, big tulasī. Especially Hawaii we have got six feet high tulasī.
Dr. Patel: I have (indistinct). They won't allow plant.
Prabhupāda: No, no. That is agriculture. You cannot take any plant. Not only tulasī. Any plant from India.
Dr. Patel: You may take away the diseases.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. Not only tulasī plant, any plant you cannot take. You cannot take any vegetables. There is agricultural restriction.
Dr. Patel: But I think tulasī can be grown in all the countries. Even in cold.
Prabhupāda: Little cold countries with little care.
Dr. Patel: England?
Prabhupāda: Oh yes. We have got tulasī.
Dr. Patel: You may have to keep it in hothouse during winter.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We make that arrangement. And what Vivekananda said, that it is better to water eggplant tree. Why tulasī plant? What you will get? Eggplant tree means you'll get some eggplant, begun. (Hindi) This is his culture. Make your body strong and stout by eating meat, and there is nothing to do with the...
Dr. Patel: The result will be the same as Gandhi's (indistinct). This slaughterhouse, so abominable and so horrible. When I first came to Bombay from my village and I had to pass through that railway, that nasty butcher house. It was so horrible smelling and those vultures sitting on the... I became spite of myself. When I came in Bombay. I had to join the grammatical college here.
Prabhupāda: You were... Two thousand years ago, Christ, he was born in Jewish family, he was horrified by seeing animal sacrifices in the synagogue. Therefore his first commandment is, "Thou shall not kill." He was so horrified. Why he has given this commandment? He was so much horrified. What is this? Therefore he gave up the Jewish religion. He started his own. This is the history. And he first commanded, "Thou shall not kill."
Dr. Patel: And the Jews were killing the pigeons in the temple.
Prabhupāda: They are very expert in killing.
Dr. Patel: I don't know how the religiosity could even...
Prabhupāda: So where is religion?
Dr. Patel: They have misinterpreted religion.
Prabhupāda: Therefore Bhāgavata has criticized all so-called religion.
Dr. Patel: One patient of mine Sardar Patel, he's a old (indistinct) from Hindus and Muslim. And (indistinct) killing of their...
Prabhupāda: Muslims are also restricted... [break] ...for some purpose. Therefore they are called karmīs. Actually, it is for satisfying Viṣṇu. Without Viṣṇu's satisfaction nothing can be done. So those who are desiring some material grants, they used to perform this ritualistic ceremonies. It is not for the devotee.
Dr. Patel: For devotee, Kṛṣṇa has said, "I am yajña, and I am also hutam, and I am also performer of yajña. "
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because he gives the intelligence. Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca BG 15.15 . Unless He gives smṛti, he cannot chant the mantra. "Therefore actually I am performer."
Dr. Patel: Ahaṁ kratur ahaṁ yajñaḥ...
Prabhupāda: Therefore He says "I am performer. If I give him instruction, he does something, so he is not doing. I am doing. I say, 'Do like this,' and he does like that, then he's not performer, I am performer." So whatever mantra they are chanting, if Kṛṣṇa does not give him intelligence, he cannot do that. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ. Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca BG 15.15 . Everyone, whatever we are doing, it is being supplied, the intelligence, the everything, but according to my desires. I cannot do anything independent. Just like we are constructing, practically, with the sanction of the municipality, the sanction of the government. Independently I cannot do. Similarly, we cannot anything without sanction of God. But that sanction is ye yathā māṁ prapadyante BG 15.15 . I insist, "God give me this facility, give me this facility." "All right. You do it at your risk." But God says, that "You don't do this." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam BG 15.15 . "What I say, you do. Then you'll be happy. What I dictate you do. But you are dictating Me. Because you are my son, what can I do? All right. Do it."
Dr. Patel: (laughs) "I grant you what ever you..."
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the position. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām BG 7.23 . "Because you are rascal, less intelligent you are doing this but this will not endure. You'll be a failure. Better what I say, you do. Then you'll be happy." This is the whole instruction. "You cannot do without My sanction. But you are insisting. What can I do? All right. Do it."
Dr. Patel: I grant you. And take the fruit and realize.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati BG 18.61 . He's there. Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni BG 18.61 . If you have done then you must suffer or enjoy. That's all. That is your business. You get... Now you have created a karma. You have to enjoy it by accepting a certain type of body. Now you take it. I ask māyā, "Give him this body. He wants to eat stool. All right. Give him the body of a hog." Yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. The yantra, the body is supplied by māyā under the order. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate BG 18.61 . Everything is there. But these things they do not preach. They preach unnecessarily nonviolence. From Bhagavad-gītā, which is being taught in the battlefield, and Gandhi wants to draw some meaning—nonviolence. Immediately it is, what is the value? Not only Gandhi. Everyone. If he can give a new interpretation... I think in Bombay, was there any Dr. Reilly? He wrote some Bhagavad-gītā commentary as...
Dr. Patel: I think it's not that Reilly. Not that Reilly, Dr. Reilly, but there is another Reilly in Baroda who taught...
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be.
Dr. Patel: Who taught Sanskrit to...
Prabhupāda: No, no. He has interpreted Bhagavad-gītā, patient and physician.
Dr. Patel: Patient and physician. That may be this Reilly then. He was the dean of one of the medical colleges.
Prabhupāda: Ah. So he has written that Kṛṣṇa is the physician and Arjuna is the patient. And he has interpreted in that way. There are 645 like that, this, what is called, unauthoritative commentaries. Without touching the spirit of Bhagavad-gītā.
Dr. Patel: Best commentary is the Bhagavad-gītā itself. It needs no commentary. It is so simple to understand. Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ.
Prabhupāda: And commentary, interpretation required when you cannot understand. It is very easy and still these rogues will exploit and mislead people. This is... And perhaps, this is the first time I am pointing out. Before that nobody did.
Dr. Patel: And you wrote I have read your commentary twice and it has become very harsh on those people.
Prabhupāda: I must be. They are doing wrong thing. They are doing great harm to the... They are misleading the... If I become little more powerful, I shall do it more harshly. I did not show because I was non-entity. But I knew it. Now people are taking me little seriously, I am talking. [break] In the beginning I thought, Who will hear me? Better wait for the time. Therefore I wrote Mahatma Gandhi, that "Now you have got your svarāja. Please come, let us preach Bhagavad-gītā. You have..." If he would have given the chance at that time, then long ago this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement would have been started.
Indian man: He had only anāsakti-yoga.
Prabhupāda: He has expanded his āsakti from family to the whole nation. Expanded āsakti is not anāsakti. I'm thinking only of my family, and if I think of the whole nation, that does not mean anāsakti. That means āsakti expanded. I am a pickpocket. If I become a great plunderer, that does not mean I am not a thief. You cannot say pickpocket is thief and a great plunderer is a hero. The quality is there.
Hari-śauri: There's that story about Alexander and the thief.
Prabhupāda: Ah, Alexander and the thief. The thief convinced him, "Alexander, what is the difference between you and me? I'm a small thief, you are a big thief, that's all."
Dr. Patel: I will drive the car for today.
Prabhupāda: All right. No, no, why you (indistinct). Young man... [break] ...the world... [break] (laughs) So similarly, if one is giving very important service, then even if there is some faulty thing, excuse. Service is so important. So in the Western country the woman can give very good service. Api cet sudarācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ BG 9.30 . This, our book distribution is the most important task in our society. Therefore I am giving so much stress and I am working so hard on this. Because this is my life and soul according to the order of my Guru Mahārāja. And by his grace it is to some extent successful. And I took it seriously. I take it seriously still now. That is my life and soul. I never tried in India to construct big temples or even in your country we didn't. I never tried. But I was selling personally books. That is the history. Sometimes they are criticizing, "What kind of sannyāsī? He is doing book business." (laughs) The other day that, what is his name? Bachu Hai came. Bachu Hai Dresswalla. You know him?
Girirāja: I know one Madanlal Dresswalla.
Prabhupāda: I think this is... There are two, three Dresswalla in Bhuvaneśvara.
Girirāja: Yes, he's also in Bhuvaneśvara.
Prabhupāda: Maybe their father. In the beginning I had no place so I was staying with, what is that? Prem Niketan?
Girirāja: Prem Kutir.
Prabhupāda: Prem Kutir. So they received me very nicely. So I was going to sell my books. So some of them were criticizing, "What kind of sannyāsī? He's making business bookselling." Not the authorities, but some of them. I was writing book also there.
Girirāja: I saw the room.
Prabhupāda: You have seen? (Śrīla Prabhupāda chuckles) Who showed you?
Girirāja: Hare Krishna Das Agarwal.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. He was very friendly. Actually, he is the organizer, main person. He showed that, "Here Swamiji was cooking." (laughs) Yes. I was guest for fifteen days, that Dalmia. Not this Jayadal, his big brother, Ram-Krishna. He asked me that his family... He wanted to construct a little cottage in his house, "You can live here. I'll give you a nice cottage." I thought, "No, it is not good to be patronized by a viṣayī. " This is not good. Fully dependent on a materialistic... And he's first-class materialist.
Girirāja: Yes. He's very notorious.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Actually, I thought he's good man, but after woman.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: One them has lots of wives.
Prabhupāda: That is Ram-Krishna, he's a big brother.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's also dying now, Tejiyas told me. He's old now.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. He's of my age. Not less. But he's after three, four wives. His business is to go from one wife's house to another wife's house and each wife's house, expenditure of ten thousand rupees per month. (chuckles) He's a very funny businessman. He has made his wife director and they take money. So to avoid income tax... So, huge expenditure. Each, one house. Income tax cannot say, "Why you are maintaining?" (indistinct) That is not their business. It is comparison. Just like Bhogilal, he's maintaining big, big establishment. So I became his guest for fifteen days. He wanted to stay. I stayed for fifteen days. I first, my requisition was that he you must give me exclusive typewriter for writing my books. So he gave me. And if I would have asked for typewriter he would have given. But I was working with my broken typewriter. I went to our Tīrtha Mahārāja in Māyāpura, that "You give me a room (Śrīla Prabhupāda taps on table) and a typewriter, (tap) and print my books. (tap) Give me some (indistinct) (tap). I join you."
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He said no?
Prabhupāda: He did not say no, but the printing of books, that was difficult task for him. He had no money. He's hardly collecting for maintaining. And India, printing of books is a big job. There is no guarantee of sale.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He must be feeling sorry for it now. Of course, he's dead. But later on he must be feeling sorry that if he would have given you... Agreed to your request...
Prabhupāda: Yes. These things I would have done from Caitanya Maṭha.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I never knew... We never knew that you went to Tīrtha Mahārāja.
Prabhupāda: (chuckles) No... Rather, it is Guru Mahārāja's institution. I first of all gave him...
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: A chance.
Prabhupāda: He's head man. "All right. I shall join you."
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: When was this? Which year?
Prabhupāda: In 1953. Before going to America. Two years before.
Girirāja: '63.
Prabhupāda: '63, yes.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: '63 you were already sannyāsa.
Prabhupāda: No. '63 I was in Vṛndāvana. Before that.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Before sannyāsa.
Prabhupāda: Oh yes.
Hari-śauri: Before coming to Vṛndāvana.
Prabhupāda: Oh yes. At that time I was not sannyāsa. That means it was before '58. Somewhere in '57 or... So I tried my Godbrothers, that if they give me facilities for this, then I shall join. Otherwise, I will work independently. So nobody was able to provide me with this.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Nobody?
Prabhupāda: Well, they had no money. It requires money, printing of books.
Hari-śauri: How did you manage to get your first Bhāgavatams printed?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: From donations.
Prabhupāda: Donation. This Dalmia, Jayadala, he gave me about four thousand.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: H.N. Sharma always tells me, "I helped your Guruji print the first books."
Prabhupāda: That was through Hanuman.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Everybody is now taking credit for helping. Now that you are so big everybody says, "I did this. I did that, I did that."
Prabhupāda: No, actually, these Dalmia started with four thousand rupees.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They're nice people.
Prabhupāda: Oh yes.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I met two of them. They were...
Prabhupāda: He gave me twice funds. Four thousand once, five thousand. Five thousand he gave me when I went to America for the second time.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They gave fifteen thousand about three months ago for gurukula in Vṛndāvana.
Prabhupāda: Oh. No, they are sympathetic.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They have promised that after they complete their building, their temple in Janma Bhumi they will give us money regularly. Now they are diverting all their funds to complete that building in Janma Bhumi.
Prabhupāda: No, if we want management of that Janma Bhumi they can give it.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That Janma Bhumi?
Prabhupāda: I can take it.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we can't.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct)
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So Prabhupāda, I was just finalizing today this year's festival when the devotees come. I think instead of having a festival, a pandal in Delhi like we had last year. We had one in Ludhiana and Mathurā. In Ludhiana Caityaguru promises that he can raise money for the whole thing. Our devotees won't have to spend a penny. In Delhi if we do a pandal it will require an investment of at least twenty thousand rupees. If we do our festival in Ludhiana, book distribution I calculated will be as good and no money will be invested. We have a festival in Mathurā in Janma Bhumi. Every evening by buses devotees will go from Vṛndāvana to Mathurā. You wanted to have a big program there, you remember? When I was in Vṛndāvana. So we can invite different leaders also.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari-śauri: Does that mean Prabhupāda will have to travel?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Delhi to Mathurā. It's only ten minutes flight. Fifteen minutes. Vṛndāvana to Mathurā it's only fifteen minutes.
Hari-śauri: Last time it was an hour. Almost three-quarters of an hour when we traveled from Vṛndāvana to go to that program.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Vṛndāvana to Mathurā is not more than fifteen minutes.
Prabhupāda: Fifteen to twenty minutes.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. It's not more than that.
Hari-śauri: We were at least... We were...
Prabhupāda: That we round about way.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Usually it takes by motorcycle fifteen minutes. In a car I think we could do it in fifteen minutes. So I calculated our Hindi distribution of books would be very strong because Mathurā we can generate big crowds.
Prabhupāda: You said that today we'll get another book?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Probably come by tomorrow.
Prabhupāda: What is that book?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Easy Journey to Other Planets. They finished printing it yesterday and they're binding it together. One or two days, it always happens. When I give a date sometimes it gets delayed. So I figured the distribution of Hindi books will be very good. Ludhiana and Mathurā and also not much investment will be required. It's very common, devotees go every year and they are tired of it. So this year we should concentrate on book distribution. If we have a pandal in Mathurā every evening starting at six o'clock. If we can reach Mathurā at five for book distribution it will be nice. Actually I was also thinking of having a three day pandal in Agra.
Prabhupāda: Agra is very good.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Agra is even bigger than Mathurā and our book distribution would be good. I'm going to write and see what the possibilities are.
Prabhupāda: Nearby cities we can...
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that is what I'm thinking of. Near Vṛndāvana.
Prabhupāda: Away from Vṛndāvana.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Girirāja: There's that one man, he was very enthusiastic there, Mr. Bansalji.
Prabhupāda: Bansalji.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: From Agra?
Girirāja: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Tire merchant?
Girirāja: I don't remember. But Haṁsadūta and I went way in the beginning and later on he came during the Delhi pandal. He met you and he wanted us to open a center there.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Agra is a very good place. Very nice place. There are devotees. (indistinct) goes there.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We can attract a lot of tourists because Agra always has a lot of tourists. I'm thinking of having a pandal there and Ludhiana.
Prabhupāda: Oh yes.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Delhi we had one last year.
Prabhupāda: Preaching must go on vigorously.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Especially book distribution is getting very strong with Indians.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Preaching means book distribution. Now utilize here this flag ceremony.
Girirāja: Yes.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Flag ceremony. Oh that Gujarati? They have a... When is that?
Girirāja: On the tenth. Procession is on the tenth.
Prabhupāda: Do in such a way that that Sharma will feel something.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Only thing is most of our devotees may be in Allahabad. January 10th? All the devotees will be in Allahabad for that Kumbhamela and I don't think we have enough to...
Prabhupāda: No, no. They can go after the tenth.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: After tenth. Okay.
Prabhupāda: By fourteenth or by thirteenth. It takes only one night from here to Allahabad.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Twenty-six hours. We're thinking of renting a small bus for devotees because coming back would be a problem.
Prabhupāda: I think Allahabad takes twenty-four hours.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Twenty-six hours.
Prabhupāda: Twenty-six hours by train?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: And Calcutta?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Calcutta it is thirty-six hours.
Prabhupāda: Another ten hours.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: About thirty-six hours.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Preach as much as possible. By saṅkīrtana, big saṅkīrtana. Big saṅkīrtana is book distribution and small saṅkīrtana is with mṛdaṅga. Big saṅkīrtana is going on all over the world. Small saṅkīrtana locally. Overflood the demons' Godless civilization. Our declaration of war against this Godless civilization.
Girirāja: I met a very, very nice boy yesterday. His father is a life member, but he's studying in Boston at MIT.
Prabhupāda: Oh, technology.
Girirāja: Very superexcellent student. But he was so submissive and inquisitive that he could really... And because he lives there...
Prabhupāda: He qualified? No.
Girirāja: He's finishing his Ph.D.
Prabhupāda: Oh. So he's very qualified.
Girirāja: Yes. And his father said that he is always the first rank in the class. Very outstanding student. And I mean the best thing is his attitude towards Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He asked for a copy of the Bhagavad-gītā and...
Prabhupāda: Where he is now?
Girirāja: He's in Bombay so I invited him to meet you. Actually, he was so interested that the father became scared at the end. He said... You know first he was encouraging me to influence the boy but then at the end he said, "Don't make him a sādhu. "
Prabhupāda: Now he has opened his mind.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: What's his name?
Girirāja: Shah.
Prabhupāda: Gujarati.
Girirāja: His father is associated with Bhogilal. He's a sharebroker but he's also a director in some of Bhogilal's company.
Prabhupāda: That Jain?
Girirāja: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Shah's are mostly Jain. Jains are useless.
Girirāja: Oh yes. The father is useless. Every few sentences the father would start to break in with some speculation and the son would say, "Please be quiet. I want to hear." (end)