770618 - Conversation - Vrndavana
Yaśodānandana: ...pattern of the Bhāgavatam and follow the description. In the Chapter Sixteen, where it is expressed that "Bhū-maṇḍala extends as far as the sun spreads its light and heat and as far as the moon and all the stars can be seen," that was the first verse. Then it describes that "The roving wheels of Mahārāja Priyavrata's chariot created seven ditches in which the seven oceans came into existence. Because of these seven oceans, which are described here..."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This was done before we began by another artist.
Yaśodānandana: This is the Jambūdvīpa planetary system. The complete is the Bhū-maṇḍala. This is Jambūdvīpa. This is the salt ocean, and these various oceans here, they correspond to the oceans which are described in the Bhāgavatam in that Chapter Five, Sixteenth Chapter, second verse. "Because of these seven oceans, Bhū-maṇḍala is divided into seven islands." Then, in the third verse, it describes that this universe is the universal form of the Lord. The fourth verse describes... Śukadeva Gosvāmī says he will explain the Bhūrloka. In the fifth verse he starts to be more precise about the Bhū-maṇḍala planetary system. It says, "It resembles a lotus flower." It has the shape of a lotus flower. "And the seven islands of Jambūdvīpa resemble the whorl of that flower." Then "The length and breadth of that island known as Jambūdvīpa..."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This we did.
Yaśodānandana: This one. "...which is situated in middle..." This Jambūdvīpa corresponds to this one here in this big map. "The length and breadth of this is 100,000 yojanas. " That means from its north to the south and from the west to the east it's 800,000 miles, according to this fifth verse.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So our map here, Śrīla Prabhupāda, one centimeter equals 2,000 yojanas. So this is fifty centimeters, so it equals 100,000 yojanas. It also... For anyone who is counting, four of these boxes equal one centimeter. So simply by counting this, one can understand how many yojanas each thing... This is exactly to scale. It's done very precisely to scale.
Yaśodānandana: And it describes, "In Jambūdvīpa there are nine divisions of land, each with a length of 9,000 yojanas, 72,000 miles: Bhārata-varṣa, Kimpuruṣa-varṣa, Hari-varṣa, Bhadra-varṣa, Ilāvṛta-varṣa, Ketumāla-varṣa, Ramyaka-varṣa, Hiraṇmaya-varṣa, and Kuru-varṣa. There are eight mountains that mark the boundaries of these divisions and separate them nicely. Starting with the Himalayas"—that's the first mountain—"Hemakūṭa Parvata"—second mountain—"Niṣadha Parvata"—third mountain—it goes... This... "Gandhamādana Parvata, which is the east side of Sumeru, and then Mālyavān Mountain on the west side..."
Bhakti-prema(?): Nīla mountain, north; Śveta mountain, next; and Śṛṅgavān Mountain, north.
Yaśodānandana: Maybe you can explain that Sanskrit purport also?
Bhakti-prema: (Sanskrit) It is bow-shaped. Bhārata-varṣa is bow-shaped, and this Bhadra-varṣa is again bow-shaped, Kuru-varṣa, again bow-shaped, and this Ketumāla-varṣa, again... So they were shaped. (Sanskrit) That means thirty-four yojanas...
Prabhupāda: Thousand yojanas.
Bhakti-prema: ...square. Thirty-four thousand yojanas in..., in this. This is Kimpuruṣa-varṣa. That is between Himalaya and Hemakūṭa mountain. And again Hari-varṣa is between Hemakūṭa Mountain and Niṣadha Mountain. And this Ramyaka...
Prabhupāda: Where is geographical description of this?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't even know they exist.
Prabhupāda: Little description of the Himalayas.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's all.
Prabhupāda: That is also not sufficient. In Europe, when we go over the mountain, huge mountainous tract, who knows about it? We are passing just like on a roof, aeroplane. You have seen? Huge. They have no information of what is there. And Switzerland...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Switzerland.
Prabhupāda: I have seen mountain goat. Where it has gone, nobody knows. Still.
Bhakti-prema: In Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is described more or less. Himalaya Mountain is 80,000 miles high and 16,000 miles wide. So each of these mountains are 16,000 miles wide and 80,000 miles high. And that means it is start from Badrinath up to Siberia. That is 60,000 miles, er, 16,000.
Prabhupāda: But height, they have no...
Bhakti-prema: 80,000 miles high.
Prabhupāda: 80,000.
Bhakti-prema: We cannot measure. Aeroplane cannot...
Prabhupāda: You have measured only 28,000.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Feet.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Yaśodānandana: Feet.
Prabhupāda: It is feet only.
Yaśodānandana: That is only three and a half yojanas, and we say it is 80,000 miles high.
Prabhupāda: Read something.
Bhakti-prema: And they can travel only 800 miles high, the birds in the sky, but according to Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, after 800 miles there is air to breath for a human being. But there is air for ghost and piśāca and other different species. But if we move... There are Siddhas and Cāraṇas. They are also living there. And above that, there is Rahu planet. That means 80,000 miles high.
Prabhupāda: That means Rahu planet we have connection.
Bhakti-prema: Yes. Rahu. And above that Rahu there is sun planet, and Sumeru mountain has connection with that because it is hurling again...
Yaśodānandana: It says right here.
Prabhupāda: Do it nicely.
Yaśodānandana: It is mentioned that this Sumeru Parvata, the mountain's height is the same as the width of Jambūdvīpa. So this mountain comes up to here, the same distance as this, 100,000 yojanas. So it's perfectly... This is the same length on this side and also like this. It's made like a big, a big cone on top. It describes, "Of that mountain, Sumeru Parvata, 16,000 yojanas, or 128,000 miles, are within, under." So Sumeru is like this, and it also goes under the Jambūdvīpa planetary system. And therefore the mountain's head above the earth, above here, there is 84,000 y ojanas, 672,000 miles above the level. And the mountain's width, the mountain on top, is considered to be 32,000 yojanas, or 256,000 miles. And in the bottom it's 16,000 yojanas. Scientists cannot conceive of this. Their estimation of a mountain is that it must be bigger in the bottom and end up smaller at the top, but Mount Meru is twice as big in the top than it is in the bottom. They cannot understand. Next verse, it describes the different divisions. "Just north of Ilāvṛta-varṣa and going further northward, one after another, are three mountains, namely Nīla Mountain, Śveta Mountain, and Śṛṅgavān Mountain. These mark the borders of the three varṣas, namely Ramyaka, Hiraṇmaya, and Kuru, and separate them from one another. The width of these mountains is..."
Prabhupāda: And it was not possible for me to digest. (laughs) Somebody else helped me to... I am a layman. I do not know.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How did you write it?
Prabhupāda: That somebody, Kṛṣṇa, helped me. That He manufactured.
Yaśodānandana: And these mountains, they extend to the beaches. "It is considered, according to the Bhāga... "
Prabhupāda: When I was writing, I was praying Kṛṣṇa that "I do not actually accommodate all this knowledge. Please help me." Yes. That's all right.
Bhakti-prema: It is mentioned that all other worlds are there only in Tretā-yuga all the time. No Kali-yuga, simply Tretā and Dvāpara. Only the Tretā-yuga is all the time.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Yajato makhaiḥ.
Bhakti-prema: Yes.
Prabhupāda: They are always engaged in ritualistic sacrifices. How present life... Tretāyāṁ yajato makhaiḥ.
Bhakti-prema: So they lived for ten thousand years.
Prabhupāda: Ten, they are...
Bhakti-prema: Thousand years.
Prabhupāda: Ten thousand years. Our six months equal to their one day.
Bhakti-prema: That is called demigod.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they are demigod.
Bhakti-prema: No, they are not demigod.
Prabhupāda: No, they are not demigod.
Yaśodānandana: Then it prescribes in verse number nine that "South of Ilāvṛta-varṣa and extending from east to west are the great, three great mountains named Niṣadha Parvata, Hemakūṭa Parvata and Himalaya. Each of them is 10,000 yojanas high, 80,000 miles high." That means... The scientists have understood that the Himalayas are three and a half miles high, but we say... How much the Himalayas? Twenty-eight... Five and a half miles high. We say it's 80,000 miles high. The Bhāgavatam says.
Prabhupāda: They could not measure the whole thing. That is not possible.
Yaśodānandana: Then it describes here that "On the west and east of Ilāvṛta-varṣa are two great mountains named Mālyavān and Gandhamādana respectively. These two mountains, which are 2,000 yojanas, 16,000 miles..." [break] "...in the north and Niṣadha mountain in the south. They indicate the borders of Ilāvṛta-varṣa and also the v arṣas named as Ketumāla-varṣa and Bhadrāśva-varṣa." Then it gets into more details regarding Mount Meru. "Text number eleven. On the four sides of the great mountain known as Sumeru are four mountains," these Mandara Parvata. This is the mountain.
Prabhupāda: So how you'll show actually?
Bhakti-prema: This is according to Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.
Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. Now, that doll, that you have to make.
Yaśodānandana: We are calling one artist from Māyāpura. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja has arranged to bring one artist, so we're going to draw perspectives. We're going to draw this and all... [break]
Prabhupāda: We have some artist. We have... That's all. That is perfect.
Bhakti-prema: It is also repeated in Upaniṣads, iti susruma dhīrāṇām.(?)
Prabhupāda: This...
Bhakti-prema: From the intelligence...
Yaśodānandana: This knowledge will actually destroy their misconceptions, 'cause most people think that previously, to five thousand years ago, people used to be barbarians. But if they were barbarians and they knew the whole description of the universe, they must have been very advanced.
Bhakti-prema: This is Lokāloka Mountain. We're drawing that.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're simply following your Bhāgavatam description, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Not that... Iti susru... [break]
Bhakti-prema: Except this Kimpuruṣa-varṣa and other varṣas in the mountain area, these are part of subtle world. So how we will mention it?
Prabhupāda: Mention by picture.
Bhakti-prema: So how we will expose it before scientists?
Prabhupāda: We do not require to satisfy the scientists. We have to describe according to our book. That's all. If they can understand, let them understand. Otherwise... It is not our business to satisfy the so-called scientists. We are giving the real description. [break] That Sokimala.(?) [break] (indistinct)
Upendra: Not like that, no. There have been some clouds.
Prabhupāda: Something in the sea turns right, and the whole thing becomes (indistinct). [break]
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...the original Laṅkā. Ceylon, of course, is there, but it is not Laṅkā.
Prabhupāda: Ceylon is different.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Who knows what else we will discover today. These things... When we are actually...
Prabhupāda: The Andaman, Nicobar Islands...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What did you say, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: There are other islands.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Andaman, Nicobar, like that.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. But we're not... Bhakti-prema Mahārāja said that yesterday he was going to look through the commentaries to try and understand which these referred to in present-day geography. He wasn't certain about. He only knew that one was...
Prabhupāda: There are nearby islands. I don't know whether it is... Andaman, Nicobar Islands. So those islands similarly from India were sent. Now it is inhabited. [break] ...work is stopped on account of your (indistinct)?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. [break] No, I mean in terms of our drawings and things, will we be... Will you be staying here for a little while still, in Vṛndāvana?
Prabhupāda: Why not?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean, you have no... I'm just trying to think in terms of pacing ourselves, what the schedule...
Prabhupāda: No, we can stay here unless business is finished. There is no other engagement.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. The only other engagement is the opening of Bombay temple coming up. But that's not until the end of October.
Prabhupāda: So time is up? Not yet.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, any time... [break] Did you get a little rest? The sun wasn't disturbing? [break] Always you came out victorious. Always. I have never seen you ever defeated. In Bombay it was absolutely impossible. It seemed to be impossible.
Prabhupāda: Nobody encouraged.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.
Prabhupāda: Nobody, not a single man. Who could see that a big project would come out?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Only you could see that, you and Rādhā-Rāsa-vihārī. I was...
Prabhupāda: Nobody... Still, I was determined: "No, this place is very nice."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They should write a book about that.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is worth writing, history book. Māyāpura also. Mādhava Mahārāja will not allow, allow.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So many tricks he played through that...
Prabhupāda: Similarly Tīrtha Mahārāja was no wanted me to... Here also there is one ring.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right.
Prabhupāda: This girl had to introduce line(?).
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And she didn't give the front piece. At first, she didn't give...
Prabhupāda: Didn't give.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now she has given, but at first... But still, you said, "Build a wall." Hyderabad also there was a little dispute. Everything was a struggle. [break] Our temple is the best—in Māyāpura, Vṛndāvana, Hyderabad, Bombay.
Śatadhanya: All the people think that our Deities are made of gold. They've never seen so shiny and such śṛṅgāra before.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here?
Prabhupāda: In Māyāpura.
Śatadhanya: In Māyāpura especially, yeah. [break]
Prabhupāda: ...wanted to see our. Is it not?
Śatadhanya: Yes.
Prabhupāda: All inhabitants of Navadvīpa were...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda said we should get some launch. Just like in Hrishikesh there's some launches and they take people free of charge back and forth, Prabhupāda said we should do that, take people back and forth from Navadvīpa Ghāṭa.
Prabhupāda: Not Navadvīpa Ghāṭa. Others, from...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, Svarup Ganj?
Śatadhanya: Navadvīpa.
Prabhupāda: Navadvīpa side.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: From Navadvīpa side?
Prabhupāda: Where you take bath, just opposite.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Right now there's nothing over there on that side.
Prabhupāda: So you have to arrange for that.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, I see. We could buy... Actually there was some land being offered to us. It went right from the road all the way to the river. There was a strip of land belonging to that Gaura Mahārāja. Remember Gaura Mahārāja?
Prabhupāda: Ha, ha, ha.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So there was one piece of land he had. There's a little temple there. And it goes all the way from the road right up to the Gaṅgā. So we could have a little ghāṭa there, and the boat would dock. Yeah, that's a very good idea because if it goes from where the other boats go, then the boat wallas will cause trouble. But now they... They could not protest if we make our own place.
Prabhupāda: Arrange like that. You have understood?
Śatadhanya: Yes, Prabhupāda.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (whispering to Śatadhanya)
Prabhupāda: Next get the two boats like that.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Two boats. At Hrishikesh they have boats. The boat is about the length of this...
Prabhupāda: Now it is half past nine.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break]
Prabhupāda: See how they are satisfied. [break] ...so small fly, and they can come so far only for that light.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What do they see in that light? Their death.
Prabhupāda: That is material world. [break]
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, as I could see in that building, the kitchen is nearly completed, so even if they have not completely opened that building, still, if the kitchen is completed, they can begin to cook there immediately. Why should they wait two or three months? The storeroom is a storeroom. That can be used immediately and put strong locks, and one man is in charge, and he has a register, coming in, going out.
Prabhupāda: No different store, no different...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No different store?
Prabhupāda: Two servants always cleansing. As soon as somebody eats, the servant cleanses the place, take the plates and washes, return to kitchen. You have seen cut rows, wood. Devotees have seen. You can purchase. Engage one wood cutter. Then that will be... Everything can be arranged. Simply good management. Sleeping management will not help. And everyone... Such a big hall. Everyone should eat.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Such a big dining hall. The other day they were showing, "Here is the sign. Here is the si..." So let them be utilized. Simply showing?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (loud clanking in background) This kind of sound spoils the whole peacefulness of this guesthouse, this kitchen. And it starts from early in the morning, at 5:30.
Prabhupāda: No, it is disturbing to me. Where is guest?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually they do have a number of guests here. They're having about twenty...
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Welcome. But no cooking there.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. No, that's cleared up. Immediately we can start using that hall for feeding our meal. Actually there's no reason why certain parts of that building can't be utilized now, not just sit. On one day there has to be some, you know... We may have that to show opening ceremony, but still, certain places can be utilized at a time. Just like they're using some of the...
Prabhupāda: No, opening ceremony... Gurukula is going on.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. Some of the offices are already being utilized. So the dining hall can be utilized and the kitchen floor.
Prabhupāda: That offices I cannot understand. There is no management; then office. Big, big office, but no management. All bogus. Office means management. But there is no management, and the office. Office, what does it mean, office?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Good management.
Prabhupāda: That's all. But if there is no good management, where is the use of office? Simply occupying seats? Management is... I have told him that. And he has brought some management. But there is no one. Just like government, the Filing Center, the Filing Center. Where is the file? Nobody knows. This is going on. What can I do? How the things are being done finally, nobody knows. But it is informed. "I am informing." Is it not? Anyway...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was... Actually I was also thinking about this management this morning. That's why when you called me I didn't come immediately. I was with Akṣayānanda Mahārāja.
Prabhupāda: Akṣayānanda waiting for another man, and he is waiting for another man. And nobody comes. That's all. You are finished: "I am waiting for another..." And he'll be finished: "I am waiting for another." And he's finished: "I am waiting for..." Bas, finished business. There is no such arrangement that things are going on very nicely, automatically. That is not... Anyway... Every dining, every cooking should be there. First of all manage this. And cooking should be done in good place.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This dining hall has been built here. They have a dining hall...
Prabhupāda: That can be used for other purposes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It shouldn't be used for the...?
Prabhupāda: No, one dining... That.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Devotees and paying guests...
Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. No separate. One dining hall.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: 'Cause in Māyāpura the people who live in the guesthouse, they get served in the guesthouse.
Prabhupāda: You have dining place here(?).
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You said that a high-class person should be served where he's...
Prabhupāda: No, who is high class, low class? Everyone...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If they can bring the prasāda from the cooking arrangement there to over here, it's all right if they serve them here? 'Cause I think the guests prefer that they can eat in this guesthouse.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that plates can be brought.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. So we'll see to that first of all.
Prabhupāda: One store, one kitchen, one dining room. Bas. Not separate.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not separate dining room.
Prabhupāda: That is not management. Such a big hall, such a big kitchen, sufficient. If some special per..., it can be done in that kitchen.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In that big kitchen.
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: After all, a man will cook. So he'll cook there.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about the fact that the guests eat different prasāda than devotees?
Prabhupāda: Then go there.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And we'll serve them different types of foodstuffs.
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Devotees will get one kind of food and the guests will get a different kind.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They can prepare there. What for that separate kitchen?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, there's no reason.
Prabhupāda: Separate cooking may be... [break] ...cannot. Simply they have... Every cheap people goes there. What they have done? Tell me that "This they have done, very beneficial to the human society." What they have done?
Śatadhanya: They say that they are curing disease.
Prabhupāda: Disease? So what is the benefit? One disease after another disease...
Śatadhanya: They say that the life-span is getting more years.
Prabhupāda: That is another bluff. Formerly people used to live very long. Actually in this Kali-yuga the limitation is one hundred years. But who is living one hundred years?
Śatadhanya: Even less.
Prabhupāda: Fifty, sixty... Average India, thirty-five years. In your country a little more. Nobody lives hundred years. That is also another bluff. But even if you live for hundred years, does it mean that you have stopped death? Then what is the benefit? You are eternal. Na jāyate na mriyate vā, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre BG 2.20 . You are eternal, but why you are dying? What the scientists have done? Na jāyate na mriyate. Eternal means one who has no birth, no death. But you have birth and death, so where is your scientists' help?
Upendra: The reason the original faith was placed in the scientists was because radio, airplanes, tape recorders have been manufactured, and people are impressed by these originally.
Prabhupāda: So what is the benefit? Without radio, people were dying, or with radio they are not living?
Upendra: They say they are living more comfortably.
Prabhupāda: Nonsense comfortably... They have changed the season? Is it comfortable? We have to take this cooling machine. What is the practical benefit? You can say that it is comfortable. That's all right. But that does not mean that you have moved the uncomfortable situation. You are struggling against. That much you can take credit. Real benefit is not there. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi BG 13.9 . Real unhappiness is this, that you are: "Why I am struggling? I don't want death." Actually why I am taking massage and so on, so on? So that I may not die. So where is the scientists' guarantee, "No, you'll not die"? Has he any...? You'll struggle only. That's all. The scientists cannot guarantee, "No, you'll not die." That is real guarantee. "You'll die comfortably." Hm? Die comfortably? Now there is no appetite. Where is the scientist, assuring, "Take"? What actual benefit they have done? They are giving some... Nothing they have given. It is simply bluff. Things without which we could do, such things are there. There were no motorcars. There was horse carriage and bullock carriage. Things were going on. Not that without this horseless motorcar society would have been vanquished. No. There are other alternatives. Rather, they were complicated. As soon as you ride on a car, there is anxiety, especially in your country, so many cars. When you ride on a car, full of anxiety... At any moment there may be accident. It is not comfortable. If you are full of anxiety. Aeroplane may be. At any moment you can die. It is your time only. They're going in good faith: "I shall go there." But before rising to the sky, finished, crash. So many airplane has been... So where is the comfort? As soon as you get on the aeroplane, you are in full anxiety that at any moment there may be crash. Is it not? Then where is comfort? Real comfort is without anxiety. That is real comfort. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita has given, real comfort means, arni akyavad(?): "One who is not out of home and one who has no debts, he is happy." Nowadays people are going out of home, and everyone is debtor to the bank and so many... The economic machine is so made that one is put always in debts for some so-called comforts, and he's full of anxiety. The whole month he has to work to pay debts. (end)