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770218 - Conversation A - Mayapur

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His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

770218R1-MAYAPUR - February 18, 1977 - 23:21 Minutes

Prabhupāda: So I think that we can go day after tomorrow.

Bhavānanda: That's all right.

Prabhupāda: What is that? (breaks)

Satsvarūpa: He writes a note at the end of the form here just . . . (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . kidnapped three of our devotees about a week before we . . . just about a week . . .

Prabhupāda: So we cannot take any position?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, no, because the kidnapping is legal. They got . . .

Prabhupāda: Then what can be done?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They got permission from the court for conservatorship.

Ādi-keśava: But two of the devotees have already escaped.

Prabhupāda: If it is legal, what can I say?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, that's . . . this is their new tactic now. This is their new tactic, that they're getting the court permission.

Prabhupāda: Then Americans' liberty is gone.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's why the lawyers and others are very alarmed, the intellectuals, 'cause they're seeing it is becoming like Russia.

Ādi-keśava: They're saying now that psychological freedom is more important in the law than religious freedom.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, if the law helps to kidnap, then what you can do?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says that just now there was a meeting of the five hundred leading rabbis of the Jewish faith in favor of deprogramming, because they're very alarmed that the young men and women of the synagogues are joining our movement and other type of movements and leaving their so-called past religion. So the rabbis are going to take up . . . they like this deprogramming. They like this kidnapping. And he says also that just now in Newsweek magazine there's been a big article printed in favor of deprogramming, special article about this Tucson, Arizona, deprogramming center. So he says that he expects more and more of this deprogramming. He's a little bit alarmed, because all of our leaders will be here in India now for the next few weeks.

Ādi-keśava: Turn the fan off . . .

Prabhupāda: The light, not the fan.

Hari-śauri: It won't turn off the same way it turned on.

Prabhupāda: Why don't you do it?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So he's a little alarmed that we'll all be coming to India, and these deprogrammers, they know this. So he's concerned.

Prabhupāda: So do you think by going there they'll be saved?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: By staying in America, you mean?

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: Then?

Ādi-keśava: Most of the work that we can do doesn't have much to do with someone being taken, one person. It has to do with dealing with the whole issue. When we make . . .

Prabhupāda: No, how is this American law is allowed that anyone can be kidnapped?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's the whole point . . .

Ādi-keśava: We have gotten in some states injunctions from the court so that people cannot be taken. For instance, in California they have injunction. In Massachusetts . . .

Prabhupāda: If this injunction is there, why don't you take steps and . . .?

Ādi-keśava: They took them from other states. So we're trying to extend it now to the other states. But in some places there are new laws, so we have to find a new way to go against it. We have just defeated the law in the state of Vermont. They proposed one law . . .

Prabhupāda: That is law, but what can I say?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. No, I mean he wasn't asking for any statement. I was just giving it as information.

Prabhupāda: That they have already taken. Sunchilen, yabe elen? (Did you hear then you came?)

Indian man: Sunechi, bhetare dhukini. (I heard, but I did not come inside.)

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man: (indistinct Bengali) . . . bhetare dhokabe. (will give me entry.)

Prabhupāda: (indistinct)

Indian man: Dupurer pore. (In the afternoon.)

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Indian man: Mone holo. (I though thatt.)

Prabhupāda: Ki koren okhane? (What do you do there?)

Indian man: Amra byabsa kori. (We do our business.)

Prabhupāda: Krsi, go raksya koren to na khali byabsa koren? (Do you do cultivation and cow protection as well? Or you only do business.)

Indian man: Na, sobi . . . sob kichui kache te . . . (No, everything . . . everything is there . . .)

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44).

Indian man: Amader deshe (In our country) . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Go raksya karo. Eta byabsa. Vaisya yara tader ei tin . . . (Protect the cows. This is also business. Those who are vaisyas, these three . . .) (break) When there is fight, fight is fight. They'll take their tactics, we shall take our tactics.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You can see which groups are alarmed—the parents, the rabbis and the priests.

Prabhupāda: They should be alarmed. If Hare Kṛṣṇa movement goes on, then their culture will be finished.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There was one newsletter they had where they published, "Now our main enemies . . ." And they listed who the enemies are. They listed Rāmeśvara's name, Ādi-keśa's name, Kīrtanānanda's name. "These are dangerous enemies," they said.

Prabhupāda: Enemy must be always dangerous. And Cāṇakya Paṇḍita said that, "Don't take enemy leniently. Always think of him as dangerous." If you want to deal with enemy, you should always take him as very dangerous. (aside) Where is that sweet water? Sweet? That miśri?

Hari-śauri: You want sweet water?

Prabhupāda: Where is that miśri? No, we have to fight. Devise means, ways, how to fight. That's all. But try to prove that they have no brain. Actually that is the fact. Nobody has brain, especially in this age. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ (BG 7.15). Mūḍha means one who has no brain. Mūḍha, this word, applies to the ass, because ass has no brain. He works so hard for little grass, which is available everywhere. But still, he thinks that, "This washerman is giving me grass." Therefore mūḍha. He'll stand at the door of the washerman whole day, eating little grass, which he can get anywhere. So that is mūḍha. Mūḍhaḥ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam (BG 7.13). Bās. And anyone who is a mūḍha, he does not know Kṛṣṇa. So, so long we do not know Kṛṣṇa, we shall remain mūḍha—ass. That's the fact. The whole system is to understand Kṛṣṇa. But one does not know Kṛṣṇa, so he remains mūḍha, and therefore all his attempt is baffled. Ei sob sikhun, sob to bollen, ye Krsna bhakta noy. (Learn these things, you have said everyone who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa.) (break) . . . speaking that "Everyone who is not a kṛṣṇa-bhakta, he's a gādhā." Do you believe in this or not, first of all? Unless you are firmly convinced, you cannot say strongly. Eita hocche age bujhte hobe ye Kṛṣṇa-bhakta naya ei sei gādhā. Amra bolchina Krsna bolche. (One who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he is nothing but an ass. We are not saying this, this has been said by Kṛṣṇa.) Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). Sudhu gadha na, yodi bolen du-car te haat, paa royeche manus . . . na naradham. Manuser maton cehara hole ki hobe? Naradham. Eito kore, na M.A, P.HD lekha pora sikheche. (They are not only an ass—if you say they have two hands and legs, that's why they are a man . . . no they are naradhama. What if he gets a body like a human being? Naradhama. They do this. No, they are educated, they did M.A, P.HD.) Māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ (break) . . . must be intelligent. Otherwise how can I say that you are rascal if I in the same category? So that I was explaining in the morning: "Where is your brain?" And mūḍha is one who has no brain. Ki apnar sob bolben, yodi amra boli. (All you have to tell, if we say.) (break) Wherefrom consciousness comes? Where is consciousness? What is that consciousness? You have to explain. Otherwise . . .

Indian man (1): However nicely we may decorate a dead body, it has no consciousness.

Prabhupāda: That is known, but why you stress on Kṛṣṇa conscious? Everyone is conscious. Even an ant is conscious. Therefore I say, first of all you be convinced, then you say. Otherwise it will be ludicrous.

Indian man (2): But it has been said in the Vedas . . . whatever has been said in the Vedas are cent percent truth and fact. Vedas have been compiled not by human knowledge or material knowledge, but by transcendental knowledge.

Prabhupāda: So that you have to explain, what is that transcendental knowledge. (pause) So what is to be done now if they're taking our boys by force?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, there's two things. One thing is that from our side we have to explain that they have no brains. That we have to preach. And from the other side, all of these other professional groups who are helping us, they have to counteract what these deprogrammers are doing by lobbying in Congress and all the other legal means. We cannot do that, but they have position; they can do that. So we should inspire them to do that.

Ādi-keśava: For every letter that the deprogrammers write to some Congressmen, they have to write a letter. For every speech that the deprogrammers give, they must give a speech. That is the only way it would work. Just like they applied to the Catholic Church to speak in the classes of the Catholic Church about cults and deprogramming. So now we have also had our people apply to the Catholic Church that we can also speak in their classes in favor of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: So then you have to go?

Ādi-keśava: But they have to do it, because they will listen to the professionals. They won't listen to us. They say: "You just want to talk your religion." But if a professional man, a big professor, comes in and says: "I can tell you . . ."

Prabhupāda: We have got so many professor friends. There is Dr. Stillson Judah, Dr. Sukla. There are so many.

Ādi-keśava: Dr. Sukla is here in India now.

Prabhupāda: And our doctors also, Ph.D. they can go.

Ādi-keśava: We wanted to have our Ph.D.'s go.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hmm.

Ādi-keśava: Especially I've been speaking with Mādhava in Boston. But Rūpānuga was telling them that they should just stay and write for the journal and not go out and preach. I wanted them to go and speak on our behalf as Ph.D.'s.

Prabhupāda: No, no. It is now necessary.

Ādi-keśava: They are eager to do it.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ādi-keśava: All right. We'll arrange that.

Indian man (3): Mahnamabrata Brahmachari. Which class of Vaiṣṇavism he follow?

Prabhupāda: I don't recognize him as a Vaiṣṇava. If you want more, then I will have to use more strong words.

Indian man (3): No, if he's . . .

Prabhupāda: He's not a Vaiṣṇava. He's a bogus man! He wants to establish that Jagabandhu is incarnation of Caitanya. Where he got this authority? And he got the title Doctor and so on. Why does he not preach in America? Our some of our men say it is bogus, purchased title. You can get such title if you pay money.

Indian man (3): Academically he's very highly qualified, academically.

Prabhupāda: How you know?

Indian man (3): Examiner of Ph.D. and P.R.S.

Prabhupāda: In Calcutta University?

Indian man (3): He was. I don't know . . .

Prabhupāda: When he was?

Indian man (3): Few years back.

Prabhupāda: Then why he is rejected?

Indian man (3): His terms has expired.

Prabhupāda: Their terms do not expire. Anyway, he has got Ph.D. in Caitanya Mahāprabhu's philosophy, but he does not know Caitanya philosophy. Otherwise how he said that Jagabandhu is incarnation of Gaura-Nitāi? Or something like that, he said. He does not know. One who does not know what is Caitanya Mahāprabhu, how he gets his doctorate title on that philosophy? Even if he has got by some means, but where is the authority to prove that Jagabandhu is the combination of Gaura-Nitāi? No ācārya has said like that—Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura or Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, Viśvanātha Cakravartī. Where he got this bogus idea? Do you believe in that?

Indian man (3): No.

Prabhupāda: Then? There was great agitation in Navadvīpa. He wanted to establish a temple of Jagabandhu. Do you know that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Acyutānanda spoke in a big meeting against this.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I sent him. (laughs) He challenged that his title is purchased.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They applauded that.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They applauded at that meeting.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If he knows about . . . anything about Caitanya, why should he say like that? Bogus temple. By attempting to establish a temple like that, he has diminished his value. And therefore is doubtful whether he actually obtained this. Now our Bon Mahārāja also writes "Doctor."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Purchased title. These deprogrammers are doing very active campaign work by getting entry into the schools, the public schools, to speak to the children in the age groups of twelve . . . between twelve and fifteen, junior high school, high school age. And they're making presentations to them about these different groups like ours, to beware of our groups.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To beware of our groups. In other words, it's actually very bad because these children are innocent, and from a very young age now they're being told, "Watch out for the Hare Kṛṣṇas. They will brainwash you." Of course, that makes us even more appealing.

Prabhupāda: That is our advertisement.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Because when a young man, when a child is told by his . . . when a child is told by his parents, "Don't do something . . ."

Prabhupāda: They'll do it.

Ādi-keśava: Plus, as the teachers begin to see all the big scholars are supporting us, then the teachers will not react so favorably to these deprogrammers.

Indian man (3): Like, like 'Don't go near in that . . . (indistinct) . . . place." Like that.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Tomar kagaj ready ache. (Your documents are ready.) Where is Satsvarūpa? You can give him that, yes, that monma. (end)