770214 - Conversation A - Mayapur

Conversations by Date, 1977

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this lecture

770214R1-MAYAPUR - February 14, 1977 - 21:00 Minutes

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It seems like it will be a long court case.

Prabhupāda: Very good.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But they have no case.

Prabhupāda: They have no case.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're simply creating some, you know, problems, making propaganda against our society.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That will advertise us.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes

Prabhupāda: Indirect profit.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So many people now are being forced to take our side and defend us. So many . . . all the intelligent people of the country, they are supporting us.

Prabhupāda: That is our profit.

Brahmānanda: Recently there was a big conference of all the lawyers, and they were all indirectly supporting our position. They just wanted to advertise this big controversy. They say that this, this controversy is the most important issue of the 1970s. Just like in the 1960s, the Vietnam War was a big issue. So it's become very important.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa movement.

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So we have got very good certification by the psychiatrist of Calcutta University. You have seen it?

Brahmānanda: Not yet.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think I've seen that yet.

Satsvarūpa: Dhīra Kṛṣṇa got a statement from the Brain Research Institute and said the chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa is very good for the brain.

Hari-śauri: Brainwashing.

Prabhupāda: You have got that?

Satsvarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Actually it is brainwash, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12), but it is for the good. People are suffering with these dirty things within the brain. We are washing them. That is brainwash actually.

Satsvarūpa: "Indian Brain Research Association, Department of Biochemistry, University of Calcutta. Gentlemen: The Hare Kṛṣṇa kīrtana mantra used in meditation, or chanting of Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, has been practiced not only by the Vaiṣṇavas of India, but by most of the Hindus as a regular religious and social practice in Hindu families. Millions of Hindus practice with sublime devotion the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. We are not aware of any case where such practice has resulted in any detrimental effect to the health or mind of anyone. We can submit that the worshiping of Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa as being practiced in West Bengal, India, does not differ from that of the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra chanting of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. And as such, either of them cannot do any harm to the devotee or to the observer. Further, we can add that the rhythmic dance and musical svare in Hare Kṛṣṇa kīrtana mantra may have profound beneficial effect on a distorted human mind. These practices do not have any relation with brainwashing, although the word seems to carry no scientific meaning at all. Statement by Professor Ajit K. Mytee. Yours faithfully, J. J. Ghosh, President, on behalf of the Indian Brain Research Association."

Prabhupāda: It is good certificate.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very good.

Prabhupāda: And University of Calcutta. So you publish this.

Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda sent letters to Rāmeśvara and Ādi-keśava to put it in the newspaper.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ādi-keśa is here in India.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He'll be coming here in about three days, he and Tripurāri Mahārāja.

Prabhupāda: So who will come by the 747?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, there's still about three hundred devotees coming on that on that, on that flight.

Prabhupāda: Oh. It is already fixed?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: When they're coming?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're coming on the 24th, morning.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's three hundred devotees from America, England and South America. And then, of course, there's still Australia devotees and some devotees from Africa. There are more. So I think at least between three and four hundred devotees.

Prabhupāda: And here we can accommodate.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: How many rooms?

Satsvarūpa: 165 on one floor and 135 on another.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Three hundred rooms.

Prabhupāda: Two persons very comfortably can live in one room.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's nice.

Prabhupāda: So we have got about three hundred rooms. We can accommodate six hundred men.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. More than sufficient.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now arrange for big festival. There is a program, Manipur. I want to start in that small state varṇāśrama idea. That is my dream. Small state it can be done, brāhmaṇa, kṣatri . . . so when you arrived in the airport?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we first . . . the airplane that we came on landed in Delhi, and we went down to Bombay yesterday morning. So we stayed the day in Bombay.

Prabhupāda: You have seen the progress?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Going on all right?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, but I don't think it will be finished by . . . they say Dassehra but I have my doubts.

Prabhupāda: Then what can be done?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is your opinion?

Brahmānanda: Not the finishing work. There is so much marble finishing work.

Prabhupāda: The marbles, they are working or not?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yeah they're working. I think there must be at least one hundred workers going on full, full time.

Prabhupāda: Marble.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Marble and otherwise also—woodworking, so many things. But I mean it's a very big project, so I think certainly they'll be done by next March. They could open on October, but it won't be finished completely.

Prabhupāda: No, why? We must finish to the point. Then we can . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Otherwise we won't impress properly.

Brahmānanda: They're making it very beautifully. So if it's done as it's completed . . .

Prabhupāda: He has done wonderful. There is no such temple, at least in Bombay. No. And in India.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When we took off in the jumbo . . . or when we took off in the plane to Calcutta, we got a very clear vision of the whole temple complex. So there's some sign put on the towers on the top, everyone from the plane will be able to read it: Hare Kṛṣṇa Lands. Very prominent from the airplane. It stands out from all the other buildings because it's so big and very beautiful. Very nice. It is all your mercy, that building, Prabhupāda. If it was up to us . . .

Prabhupāda: (laughs) My mercy or your mercy. You are all working. Then anyway, this counterpropaganda is doing good to us.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's making . . . everyone in America now knows the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Very prominent in America.

Prabhupāda: And New York temple is going nice?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think very nicely, yes.

Prabhupāda: People are coming regular?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yeah we get on Sundays not less than six or seven hundred people come every Sunday. And . . .

Prabhupāda: Indians and Americans.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. About, say, half and half.

Prabhupāda: That's good.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Good turn-out.

Prabhupāda: Similarly Los Angeles, and other . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So by this counterpropaganda we have not lost anything.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. People were not so much aware of what our movement stood for. Now, with this propaganda, we're getting an opportunity to explain to them what our movement means.

Prabhupāda: I wanted that all our books should be given to the court: "This is our statement. Let him read. He can . . ."

Brahmānanda: We received that tape where you tell the story of Mr. Ghosh bringing all the books just to . . .

Hari-śauri: "Just to teach you law."

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Hari-śauri: "Just to teach you law."

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. There was big lawyer. In those days he was earning not less than thirty thousand per month. Rajveri Ghosh, Doctor. He was Doctor. in one case he brought so many books in the court, the judge remarked, "Well, Dr. Ghosh, You have brought the whole library?" "Yes, My Lord, just to teach you law." (laughs) any statement we give, it has to be considered. They cannot neglect. So you can simply put these books, eighty-four books, "This is our statement. You read them. Then give your judgement." How do you think? Did you consult any lawyer?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We're going to do it. It can be done.

Prabhupāda: "It is not brainwash. It is science. You have to know the science." And actually that is the fact. The court case is going on.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. The next . . . the next date for the trial is on March the 2nd, but it may be postponed until about March the 10th. So Ādi-keśa Mahārāja wanted to take the opportunity to come and visit.

Prabhupāda: Very good. The more it is prolonged, it is good for us. Things will be discussed.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. We are relishing the opportunity.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) And it will be published in the paper. It is a good opportunity.

Brahmānanda: Even they had a preliminary hearing, and all the major newspaper, Time Magazine, Newsweek, they were all present. And also from the Indian government.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, the Consulate. The Indian Consulate came. Ādi-keśa Mahārāja has been contacting some of the important officials. He's had a lot of meetings with the Ambassador. So the Ambassador ordered the from the Consulate one person must come to give a statement that, "The Indian government supports the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement." So they came and made this statement.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that is . . . (laughs)

Brahmānanda: And this representative will attend every hearing.

Prabhupāda: That is nice. That is very nice.

Brahmānanda: As official . . . and he was ordered to do so by Indira.

Prabhupāda: Yes, the Home Member. The Home Member said to . . . "We want that this movement should be spread all over the world."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The government . . . the representative said that, "Our government is nonsectarian, but within our country are so many people are Hindus, and this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is the religion of all these people. This is the actual religion of these people. It is authentic."

Prabhupāda: Then? How they can . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they . . . they have no case at all.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) They want to speak brainwash, and here is the university psychiatrist, he says: "No, it is not brainwash." So handle very carefully.

Brahmānanda: The judge that we have is very . . .

Prabhupāda: Sober.

Brahmānanda: Well, his reputation is that he is the toughest judge in the state. The DA deliberately arranged for this judge. So it will be a little difficult.

Prabhupāda: So the toughest judge, does it means he will be unjust also?

Brahmānanda: Well, he might be a little prejudiced against us.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But it doesn't . . . it just means the case will go longer. Still they have no case.

Prabhupāda: Then we can change.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We tried, but it was not successful. We already made that motion to change the judge. It wasn't successful.

Prabhupāda: No, the government says it is bona fide, India government?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Then how he can go against it?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually they can't. I mean, they have absolutely no case, but still they're pushing onwards just to make some . . . create some dirt.

Prabhupāda: The thing is . . . real thing is that . . . that was spoken by one politician that, "It is spreading like epidemic"?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That danger they are fighting.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The thing is . . . there're now some demons in America, they are realizing that this is the most dangerous movement to their whole culture.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the real point. And if the young men, they are taking and they take it seriously, then they will take over government. Yes. That is the real point. Because they want to stop it. But we cannot be stopped. Because the younger generation, they are taking it seriously, it cannot be stopped.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: As long as we stay within the law, they cannot find any fault with us. They are trying like anything, but they cannot find any fault.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The poison has already entered. (laughs)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Through your books.

Prabhupāda: Now it is reacting, so they are feeling the pressure. That is our success, when there is opposition. They are not going to oppose any such movement like Transcendental Meditation. No, they don't care. But this, they are seeing that it is very venomonous poison.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They didn't realize your intentions when you first came in 1965.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. No illicit sex, no meat-eating. I thought that nobody would take this. But it is Kṛṣṇa's mercy you have taken it seriously. So just you have got your room?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, very nicely situated.

Satsvarūpa: You'll be taking prasādam.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I've brought some medicines for you from Bombay.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. What is that medicine?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I can bring them. I don't know.

Brahmānanda: Were you expecting something?

Hari-śauri: We already got one big bag full.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. There's so many more things now.

Hari-śauri: Did Kārttikeya give it to you?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't know who . . . Girirāja gave them to me.

Prabhupāda: So in Bombay everything is going . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. There was very very strict program. You know Girirāja is such a good devotee.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean he's . . . everything is just like in America in Bombay. You know, the temple program is right on time, very nicely . . .

Prabhupāda: That is wanted. If we keep our temple program nicely and we follow the rules and regu . . . then we are triumphant. There is no doubt. That is our main strength.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. That is going on very strictly in Bombay.

Prabhupāda: Everywhere this should be going. Then we are safe.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gopāla Kṛṣṇa had something wrong with his foot, had some foot . . .

Brahmānanda: He had an operation. Small, minor.

Prabhupāda: Boil? Something?

Brahmānanda: We don't know what it is.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Something like a boil. So he was sitting most of the time.

Prabhupāda: Now I have advised the books in the schools, colleges, our Hindi, Bengali, English. We can put in every school. I was instructing . . .

Devotee: Māyāpur town?

Prabhupāda: Everywhere, all over the world. It will be a revolution from godlessness to understanding of God. That is wanted. Otherwise the whole human society is suffering. Harāv abhaktasya kuto (SB 5.18.12). This advancement of so-called education has no value. It is very risky. They do not know how the nature's law is working. Rascals. They're taking this short duration of life, māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān (SB 7.9.43), making big, big plans, forgetting they're completely under the control of nature. A very risky civilization. A living being gets the opportunity to understand all the secrets of nature's path, but he's denied the opportunity. Very dangerous. He's thinking like animal—eating, sleeping, that's all. And big, big educationist, and in . . . like Professor Kotovsky, he said: "Swāmījī, after this body is finished, everything is . . ." Just see.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No intelligence. (break)

Prabhupāda: Anyone who has understood the value of Hare Kṛṣṇa, he's saved. We should not simply keep ourselves saved. We should think for others. That is para-upakāra. That you cannot do unless you are in the safe position. Janma sārthaka kari. If you become polluted, then you cannot do. That is the secret. If you are not polluted, then you can do. Otherwise it will be show only, no effect. This is the secret. Janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra (CC Adi 9.41). So things are very easy, not at all difficult. If you follow, then you can do good to others.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This process gives one the strength to carry it forward more and more.

Prabhupāda: Āpani ācari' prabhu jīve śikhāilā. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He did so. The whole human civilization is on a risky platform.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't see how the, I don't see how the present civilization can stand up against our devotees if we remain strong.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. It cannot. Prahlāda Mahārāja . . . such a gigantic demon could not do anything. He was five-years-old boy, was sticking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That's all. Only that strength, and he faced the dangerous position of a gigantic demon like Hiraṇyakaśipu. Even the demigods were afraid. So remain like Prahlāda Mahārāja, pure. Nobody can do anything. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So take rest and . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya. Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hare . . . (break) (end)