761114 - Conversation B - Vrndavana

Conversations by Date, 1976

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

761114R2-VRNDAVAN - November 14, 1976 - 81.06 Minutes

(Conversation with Alex Kulik)

Prabhupāda: (long Hindi conversation, preaching to Indian guests) It does not depend on becoming a sannyāsī, gṛhastha or śūdra. (Hindi conversation) If you take instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, and if you apply in your life, then you're perfect. Never mind whether you are gṛhastha or sannyāsa. (Hindi conversation) (break)

Hari-śauri: So this is a . . . In the battle between the demigods and the demons.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Hari-śauri: The verse was,

teṣāṁ padāghāta-rathāṇga-cūrṇitād

āyodhanād ulbaṇa utthitas tadā

reṇur diśaḥ khaṁ dyumaṇiṁ ca chādayan

nyavartatāsṛk-śrutibhiḥ pariplutāt

(SB 8.10.38)

"Because of the impact on the ground of the legs of the demons and demigods and the wheels of the chariots, particles of dust flew violently into the sky and made a dust cloud that covered all directions of outer space, as far as the sun. But when the particles of dust were followed by drops of blood being sprinkled all over space, the dust cloud could no longer float in the sky."

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Hari-śauri: Purport: "The cloud of dust covered the entire horizon, but when drops of blood sprayed up as far as the sun, the dust cloud could no longer float in the sky. A point to be observed here is that although the blood is stated to have reached the sun, it is not said to have reached the moon. Apparently, therefore, as stated elsewhere in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, the sun, and not the moon, is the planet nearest the earth. We have already discussed this point in many places. The sun is first, then the moon, then Mars, Jupiter and so on. The sun is supposed to be 93,000,000 miles above the surface of the earth, and from the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam we understand that the moon is 1,600,000 miles above the sun. Therefore the distance between the earth and the moon would be about 95,000,000 miles. So if a space capsule were traveling at the speed of 18,000 miles an hour, how could it reach the moon in four days? At that speed, going to the moon would take at least seven months. That a space capsule on a moon excursion has reached the moon in four days is therefore impossible." (laughs)

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) So my reason is all right?

Hari-śauri: Oh, yeah. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Modern scientists (Hindi—about challenge)

Guest: (Hindi conversation)

Prabhupāda: Whatever Mars going? Finished.

Hari-śauri: Yes. They don't put anything about it now.

Guest: (Hindi conversation)

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Grapes are sour. Full of sand. (Hindi conversation) (break)

Alex Kulik (devotee businessman from Laguna Beach): (describing plans for new San Diego temple) . . . thirty-six thousand students, so it's in a very, very nice area, just for the type of people we'd like to reach, you know, intelligent. And also it's a . . . Actually, what it is, it's a motel that's had its, you know, it has no business there. It's surrounded by other more expensive . . .

Prabhupāda: So there is one building within the land?

Alex Kulik: No, it's like . . .

Prabhupāda: What is this?

Alex Kulik: Okay, here's a diagram here, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Alex Kulik: This is the street right here, and you enter here, and there's buildings here, you know, for a restaurant.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Alex Kulik: Right here. We're going to make a . . .

Prabhupāda: That is already there.

Alex Kulik: Yes. We're going to make an extension of Govinda's Restaurant.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Alex Kulik: And here you have the offices, where you can make an apartment, and here we have thirty units, small, about the same size as the rooms upstairs . . .

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Alex Kulik: . . . which is good for, like, āśrama, you know.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Alex Kulik: It's not luxurious, it's just small rooms. And here we have a small swimming pool.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Alex Kulik: It's not too big. And all these are fully grown trees with . . . there's some palm trees here. And then in the back . . .

Prabhupāda: Who cares for the trees are here.

Alex Kulik: Yeah, did you see the tree? Okay. In the back here, this is, we have fruit trees, different types of fruit trees like a . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, very, very good.

Alex Kulik: . . . pomegranate, you know, and some peaches and plums.

Prabhupāda: Pomegranate is a very nice fruit.

Alex Kulik: Yes. And this area right here is more or less empty and available for . . . These are small bushes here. These are small bushes. So we are proposing to construct a temple right about in here, then use the rest of the land for farming and growing flowers for Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You are destroying these trees.

Alex Kulik: Well, see these trees, they're not real tall all the way, there's . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, this is green also.

Alex Kulik: Yeah, this is greenery around here, and occasionally there's a big tree, and then along the back here's . . .

Prabhupāda: Big trees are this side.

Alex Kulik: Yeah, exactly, and also in here around this area and around in here. And in the back here we have like a small desert garden with cactus and different things.

Prabhupāda: It is desert?

Alex Kulik: No, it's not a desert, but that's the way this rear portion has been landscaped, you know.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Alex Kulik: It's made to look like a desert, but it's actually very lush, and it looks a lot bigger than two acres.

Prabhupāda: Where things you cannot grow, you can keep cows. Eh?

Alex Kulik: I'm not sure if we can keep cows in there, because it's inside of the city, and sometimes they don't allow the cow within a certain zoning. And now the only problem we might run into with this is that it's not zoned right now for a church or a temple, but . . .

Prabhupāda: Don't say "temple."

Alex Kulik: Excuse me?

Prabhupāda: You say "community project."

Alex Kulik: Community project?

Prabhupāda: Community project.

Alex Kulik: Oh, community project. Well . . .

Prabhupāda: Don't say church.

Alex Kulik: Okay. But the thing is if . . . The first thing that it can be rezoned for is a church and a temple.

Prabhupāda: There is no need of rezoning, because we are Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa community. So wherever we live, we worship Kṛṣṇa. It is not a public show; it is our own private worshiping Deity. I can keep Deity in my home, just like Christian deity, Mary, Jesus Christ, in the room. There is no objection.

Alex Kulik: I don't think there's any objection to that, but according to Guṇagrahi . . . See, they had a similar problem in San Diego, like the government there doesn't approve too much of them, and each time they try to buy a nice piece of land, you know, somehow or other . . .

Prabhupāda: That's why I say, "Don't call it temple."

Alex Kulik: Don't call it temple.

Prabhupāda: No. "Community project."

Alex Kulik: Community project.

Prabhupāda: Project. That's all.

Alex Kulik: Okay. I can tell them that. But he says . . .

Prabhupāda: We are just establishing a community project. But because we are Hare Kṛṣṇas, so wherever we live, we worship Kṛṣṇa, that's all. Don't say temple.

Alex Kulik: Don't say temple.

Prabhupāda: No.

Jagadīśa: A problem may come if they say, "But you invite people to come."

Prabhupāda: Friends I must invite, for feast. This is our community project.

Hari-śauri: Once you're in there, then it's . . . In Melbourne we told them that it's just strictly private—it was going to be like a monastery, there was just going to be a few monks who were going to do our worship, like that. And then when we were in, we just had the Sunday Feast and everything, and everything was fine.

Alex Kulik: Well, actually, the way . . .

Prabhupāda: Śaṭhe śāthyaṁ samācaret. That is that if the other is cheat, you become cheat. Why you should be honest? Śaṭhe śāthyaṁ samācaret.

Alex Kulik: Well, in this case, actually I don't think there will even be a problem if we said temple. Because . . .

Prabhupāda: That is your . . . I say, "Don't declare it a temple." It is our community, living quarters, residence, that's all. We live like this; our style of living is this. How you can . . .?

Indian guest: Just like the usual person was doing something at home.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Don't say it is temple. That's all. (chuckles) Kill law by law. (Hindi) . . . and safest position is that you don't say it is a temple.

Alex Kulik: Well actually we're not coming on to them like we are, you know, Hare Kṛṣṇas or anything like that. We are going in karmī clothes.

Prabhupāda: No, no, there are many communities, gṛhastha, in our Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. We don't say . . .

Alex Kulik: According to the escrow we say that we want to build like some sort of a church. Now in the zoning laws for that particular area . . . Now if you want to rezone, the only thing that's allowed to rezone for is for churches and temples. They have it written.

Prabhupāda: You can take help from Detroit. He knows very well. That was rezoned. You did it.

Jagadīśa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He knows everything. That was a residential quarter. Now we have made it a temple.

Alex Kulik: So we . . .

Prabhupāda: What is the process?

Jagadīśa: Well, we had . . . because we were dealing with Ford, the grandson of Henry Ford, because he was wealthy, he had a lawyer friend who had a connection in the zoning board, so . . .

Prabhupāda: Influence.

Jagadīśa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But what was the law point? You cannot influence by . . .

Jagadīśa: No, we . . . The point was that that particular property was secluded. By making it a multi-residential dwelling with a public worship facility there was no inconvenience to the neighbors. That was the main thing. We went around to all the neighbors in the neighborhood. We got them to sign a petition saying they had no objection to our holding meetings there and having multi-residential, and that was our strongest . . . besides our connection with this lawyer, having the neighborhood support was our strongest weapon. And the neighbors all were very warm.

Prabhupāda: The black people, they are simple. They are not so . . . (indistinct) . . . If they are satisfied . . .

Jagadīśa: We gave them prasādam and a little chanting, and they were satisfied.

Alex Kulik: Actually the neighbors around here, all along here are businesses on either side.

Prabhupāda: Then they'll suffer?

Alex Kulik: Then there's no . . . Actually, even if we ask for rezoning, they cannot refuse us because according to their laws the only thing that this particular land can be rezoned for, number one on the list, is churches and temples. But . . .

Prabhupāda: No, you do it, but if there is doubt you can say, "No temple."

Alex Kulik: Right, right.

Prabhupāda: Don't take the name of a temple.

Alex Kulik: Right. This is a minor problem in this case. It used to be a major, but it's minor now.

Prabhupāda: Community project. That's all. We are Hare Kṛṣṇa community; it is our project. We live together, that's all.

Alex Kulik: Jaya. Well, I'll pass that along to Guṇagrahi.

Prabhupāda: I think I went to San Diego.

Alex Kulik: Yes, about two years ago.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. So . . .

Alex Kulik: You see . . .

Prabhupāda: There is a big park, San Diego.

Alex Kulik: Balboa Park. You had one lecture there.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. So how far it is from the park?

Alex Kulik: About ten or fifteen miles. You see it is more in, away from the ocean, and it's located right in the middle of this college community where most of the residents are students of the university, and the university has 36,000 . . .

Prabhupāda: So you can get the chance of attracting students.

Alex Kulik: Oh, yes, yes, of course. This is . . . a main thing there of the location is in being around the student community.

Prabhupāda: San Diego seaside, I went. There are so many swimming clubs.

Alex Kulik: In La Jolla?

Prabhupāda: The underneath, under, within water they're swimming.

Alex Kulik: Skin-diving, underneath the water.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian guest: (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: San Diego.

Indian guest: San Diego. . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: What is this?

Jagadīśa: It's in California. San Diego, California.

Prabhupāda: No, what's . . .

Alex Kulik: See, at the present moment the San Diego temple, they used to have two buildings, and they have been more or less evicted from the main building and they had to move the Deities to the residential quarters, and they had to move all the brahmacārīnis out to another building.

Prabhupāda: Oh, they have left that building?

Alex Kulik: Yeah, they left that building, the main building, and now the Deities are in the one over, the, which used to be the residential quarters, and it's just in a small room and it's very . . .

Prabhupāda: Inconvenient.

Alex Kulik: Very inconvenient.

Prabhupāda: So start this temple.

Alex Kulik: So this is in escrow now. It's already started. And it will take ninety days, and it all depends on the rezoning.

Jagadīśa: The zoning has been applied for?

Alex Kulik: Yes, it's been applied for, and the chances of them refusing us is very slim.

Jagadīśa: When is their next meeting?

Alex Kulik: I really couldn't say. I don't know, but it will be soon. There's one boy who's working on it. I forgot what his name is. I have a bad memory for names. But anyways, I and some friends of mine would like to construct a temple right here.

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Alex Kulik: Right there, just . . .

Prabhupāda: Do, according to your choice.

Alex Kulik: And we were thinking about a design like a large dome.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Alex Kulik: You know, and then on each corner, kind of like . . . What do you call those?

Jagadīśa: Cornice?

Alex Kulik: You know, with a little thing. And then right in the middle of the dome, we want to put like a big gold—not real gold, but you know, gold-colored—thing with flags.

Prabhupāda: Flags.

Alex Kulik: Put flags on the top. Right. Exactly. This was our initial idea.

Prabhupāda: So why don't you make a temple like this? You see?

Devotees: (indistinct) . . . attractive point.

Prabhupāda: But then you cannot deny that it is not a temple.

Alex Kulik: Yeah, that's true. Actually . . .

Prabhupāda: Best thing is this type temple.

Alex Kulik: Like here. With three domes. Well, see, it all depends on the cost. I have some cost estimates here that . . . We figured out it's somewhere between thirty and forty dollars per square foot to build.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Alex Kulik: Now if we build a temple that's 6,500 square feet, which is quite a large size, that would come out to $260,000, and on down to 3,600 square feet, which would be about $144,000. I've collected about $100,000 on my own, and I have another person who promised somewhere between fifteen and twenty-five. And by the time that three or four months is up . . . Actually, we couldn't build until about six or seven months anyways, so by this time . . .

Prabhupāda: That Kṛṣṇa will give. Don't worry; He will give money.

Alex Kulik: Also another thing, this is . . . You may remember when you were in Los Angeles last time, Kṛṣṇa-kāntī and Mangalānanda asked you if they could do this contemporary-style music with Kṛṣṇa lyrics. So this is the very first copy. Actually, there's not much to see; it's just like any other album. This is the first test pressing.

Hari-śauri: He has a cassette which you can listen to sometime if you want.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I can listen. Play it.

Alex Kulik: You would like to hear something?

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Hari-śauri: It's done to like modern, popular music.

Prabhupāda: Mm.

Hari-śauri: With the lyrics about Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Why don't you keep one record player?

Hari-śauri: Well, record players are a bit bulky to carry. They have it on cassette.

Prabhupāda: No, this time anyone comes, ask them to bring one record player. Japanese record player is very cheap.

Alex Kulik: Yeah, I think that's a good idea to have, because all these albums are coming out now.

Hari-śauri: But you can get them all on cassette The problem is . . .

Prabhupāda: Between fifteen dollars, sixteen dollars.

Hari-śauri: . . . we can't carry it all. We've got so much baggage we couldn't possibly carry all . . .

Alex Kulik: Actually, cassette is more practical.

Hari-śauri: These cassettes we can get. We can have everything on cassette.

Prabhupāda: All right.

Alex Kulik: Okay, this is . . . Actually, they're probably sent by . . . (indistinct) . . . This is quite nice, too. ("Change of Heart" starts to play)

Prabhupāda: Yes. (indistinct discussion in background) Now if this album is played . . . (indistinct—album playing at same time) (break) Yes.

Hari-śauri: This is a small swimming pool and palm trees. (background discussion about name of devotee)

Prabhupāda: (Hindi conversation with guest about prasādam) Ācchā. The epidemic is not going to stop. (laughs)

Alex Kulik: No. Prabhupāda, I've been given a cow, in America.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Alex Kulik: This Yamunā, Yamunā-devi?

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Alex Kulik: One of her cows, Premadhana. She's given it to us. We've had it now for five or six months, and we have built a nice area for her. We have ten acres of land for her to roam around on. She's very happy, very happy.

Prabhupāda: So take your country in your(?) hand, Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then surely we shall get the government. This is the prediction of a politician: "Kṛṣṇa conscious, the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is spreading like epidemic. That I'm afraid within ten years they'll get the government."

Alex Kulik: I know.

Prabhupāda: If the young men joins—immediately.

Hari-śauri: If they find out that that's our actual plan they will . . .

Prabhupāda: Why you should not be? It must have. Hare Kṛṣṇa party. They have got Democratic Party, Republican Party—another party, Hare Kṛṣṇas. Bās.

Alex Kulik: Prasādam party.

Prabhupāda: No, Hare Kṛṣṇas. That will be nice. At least they will criticize Hare Kṛṣṇa and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) That's all. We want . . . (indistinct) . . . śraddhā. It is said that, . . . (indistinct) . . . śraddhā. If we respect chanting, it is very good; even by neglecting chant, that is also good. Just like Ajāmila, he chanted. He never meant "Nārāyaṇa." He meant his son, but he got result. Ante nārāyaṇa smṛtiḥ (SB 2.1.6). He never meant that he's calling for Nārāyaṇa. He did not follow up bhakti. But Nārāyaṇa took care of it that "Now anyway he's chanting 'Nārāyaṇa.' He must come to Vaikuṇṭha."

Alex Kulik: This is what . . . (indistinct) . . . in San Diego.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is Sixth Canto. Hmm?

Jagadīśa: I think that's Sixth. (devotees discuss whether Fifth or Sixth)

Prabhupāda: First verse.

Devotee: (enters) . . . (indistinct) . . . Retired inspector of the schools, wants to do translation, Hindi. He wants to stay here. He wants to be . . .

Prabhupāda: Hah?

Devotee: He has come.

Prabhupāda: Hah?

Devotee: There is one gentleman, Mr. Saxena. He is retired inspector of schools from Rajasthan.

Prabhupāda: Oh, he has come?

Devotee: Yes, shall I call him?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jagadīśa: He wrote me a letter. He met one of our traveling parties in India, and he heard that I was here, and he was interested to . . . in our educational program. So I invited him to come here, perhaps to teach Hindi, and so he's here.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Alex Kulik: Prabhupāda, this is some honey; this is from my wife. And this is from Viśakha, Yadubara's wife, from Los Angeles. She asked us to . . . (indistinct) . . . And this is from all the devotees in San Diego. This is ghee.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Indian guest: Cow ghee?

Alex Kulik: Yes. They heard that you were in need of some ghee, so they have . . .

Prabhupāda: Anyway . . .

Alex Kulik: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Nice.

(pause)

Prabhupāda: That's all right. (Hindi conversation) Oh, thank you very much. (Hindi conversation)

Indian guest: (Hindi) . . . doctor, high specialist. He's in charge of high department. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . ācari prabhu jīveri śikāimu: you cannot teach others if you are not fixed also. Otherwise it will be useless. It is useless. Āpani ācari prabhu jīveri śikāimu. If you are fixed up in principles, then you can teach others that principle. That will be effective. If you smoke, and if you tell others that "Don't smoke," that is useless. That is useless. (break) . . . first of all give up this habits, bad habits, then you can teach, it will be effective.

Mr. Saxena: (indistinct) . . . of life.

Prabhupāda: (aside:) You can prepare little that dāliya, that's all. (Hindi conversation) Unfortunately, they do not try to understand the science of Kṛṣṇa.

Mr. Saxena: (Hindi) Vidhi.

Prabhupāda: Vidhi, ne. One must know . . . Vidhi, that practical and theoretical. So vidhi, mostly theoretical, and when you practice it, it is jñāna, vijñāna. Jñāna, vijñāna. So jñāna means theoretical knowledge, and vijñāna means practical application.

Mr. Saxena: Is religion a practical knowledge?

Prabhupāda: Religion means . . . That I was discussing. Religion means the law given by God. That is religion. They do not know it. They do not know what is God, they do not know what is the words, or order, of God. Whole world is like that. They profess some religion, but religion means the law of God. But if they do not know what is God, then how he'll understand the law of God? That means there is no religion. All cheating. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo (SB 1.1.2). The Bhāgavata rejects all kinds of so-called religious system, accusing that they're all cheating. Cheating, all cheating. If you do not know God, what is the meaning of their religion? It is simply cheating. If you have accepted a style of religion without any understanding of God, then it is simply you have been cheated. And that is going on.

Mr. Saxena: Everywhere.

Prabhupāda: Everywhere. (Hindi)

Mr. Saxena: I have been to all these four corners of India—Badarikāśrama, Rāmeśvaram, Jagannātha Purī and Dvārakā—and he told me what they say, Viśvavarūpa Śaṅkarācārya, he's in Purī Śaṅkarācārya, and (Hindi) . . .and about 800 rooms in that Paratmaniketan.

Prabhupāda: Eight hundred?

Mr. Saxena: Eight hundred rooms. Very big temple, and the daily income is about more than 1500 rupees per day, donation. I still get from three months. His speech is at nights, their sannyāsīs. But if you see that practical life, awful. You realize all this tīrthas, what you call? They are no more tīrthas now. All in most case use that word shopping centers, what we call. I have been to the Sivananda Ashram. Some Cidanandajī is there. Sivanandajī is no more. When I went to Yoganiketan, there is one Gangesvarananda . . .

Prabhupāda: Cidananda.

Mr. Saxena: Cidananda is there.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Saxena: He is a disciple of Swami Sivananda, Divine Life Society.

Prabhupāda: He is dead now?

Mr. Saxena: No, Sivananda is dead.

Prabhupāda: Not.

Mr. Saxena: Cidananda is the in-charge of that institute, Divine Life Society. There is another, Yogesvarananda. There is Upaniketan trust. They are having three years' course for regular yoga. And there is some . . . (indistinct) . . . Mahesh Yogi, Transcendental Meditation . . . (indistinct) . . . samādhi. I lived there for fifteen days, tried to get something out of that. Everywhere I found there is no . . . We are after peace. There is no peace there.

Alex Kulik: Prabhupāda, you say that religion is the law of God. So that means there can only be one religion.

Prabhupāda: Yes. God is one . . . (indistinct) . . . for everyone. Yes.

Alex Kulik: So all others are just contaminated.

Prabhupāda: No, if they follow the rules, God, God said that "You just surrender unto Me."

Alex Kulik: So natural laws.

Prabhupāda: This is the religion. God says that "You surrender unto Me." This is religion. So if one does not know what is God and where to surrender, then where is religion? Is it wrong for God to say that "You surrender unto Me"? Can you say like that?

Mr. Saxena: How? How can you say?

Prabhupāda: If God is the supreme, He has the right to say like that.

Mr. Saxena: Of course. Of course.

Prabhupāda: Just as the government can say that "Must obey." So if the government can say this, the head of the supreme government, if He says that "You surrender," what is wrong there?

Mr. Saxena: Nothing wrong.

Prabhupāda: And that is clear. Simple—two words. Unfortunately, they want to deny God. They take the place of God, all these Māyāvādīs. Ānandam, mostly. So that is rascaldom. How you can take the position of God?

Mr. Saxena: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: But they want to take the position of God. "Everyone is God. I am God, you are God." This is they are claiming.

Mr. Saxena: Bhagavan Rajneesh.

Prabhupāda: So many rascals. Why Rajneesh? There are many other.

Mr. Saxena: There are others, Satya Sai Baba, and so many others.

Prabhupāda: This is going on. What? People also do not ask, that "How you become God?" That's also so foolish. They accept any rascal as God. That Rajneesh, what he is? He advertises "Bhagavān," and there are many rascals, they accept him. What he has done? (Hindi)

Mr. Saxena: How to stop it, then?

Prabhupāda: Stop, but unless you are intelligent, how it can be stopped? If the people are not intelligent, the cheaters will cheat. It is very . . .

Mr. Saxena: But Swāmījī, mostly educated persons, Ph.D, D.Litt., M.A., postgraduates, they are the followers of this.

Prabhupāda: Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, māyayāpahṛta-jñānā (BG 7.15). They are supposed to be very learned, but actually they're fools, māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. These so-called educated, they are bereft of knowledge. They have no common sense. That I was asking this debauch, as God. That also ignorance. He does not know what is God.

Mr. Saxena: Yes, because education is no education now.

Prabhupāda: He does not know. We have got the definition of God:

aiśvaryasya samāgrasya

vīryasya yaśasaḥ śriyaḥ

jñāna-vairāgyayoś caiva

ṣaṇṇaṁ itiṅgaṇa bhāga

(Viṣṇu Purāṇa 6.5.47)

Aiśvaryasya samāgrasya, that one who is in possession of all the wealth; vīryasya, all strength; all faith, yaśasaḥ; all beauty, all knowledge and all renunciation, that is God. Now so far Kṛṣṇa is concerned, He showed all these things. Aiśvaryasya . . . For example, Kṛṣṇa married 16,000 wives, and for each wife a different palace. And for each wife, ten sons. Woman requires very nice accommodation, sons, husband. That is their ambition that He fulfilled, although He married 16,108 wives. This is aiśvaryasya samāgrasya vīryasya. This so-called rascal Bhagavān, who has shown this? Why shall I accept this cheap God? Show me something that you are God. Seven-years-old Kṛṣṇa, He lifted the Govardhana hill. (Hindi) There is, but they have no knowledge to compare with the idea of God. So far knowledge is concerned, Bhagavad-gītā, left by Kṛṣṇa, it is adored all over the world. Especially nowadays we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, and millions of copies we are selling. Now we are advertising . . . Where is that picture? Million, 1.5 million.

Alex Kulik: 1.5 million copies.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) 1.5 million, the Kṛṣṇa book we have sold.

Jagadīśa: Kṛṣṇa book is taken from the Tenth Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, summary study.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, up to date since 1970, we have sold 1.5 million.

Alex Kulik: And every day we sell more.

Prabhupāda: Hah, yes. All these Kṛṣṇa consciousness books, we are selling daily five to six lakhs of rupees. All over the world. I have estimate. That religious book (Hindi). It is full of religion and philosophy; still they are selling.

Mr. Saxena: That is an achievement.

Prabhupāda: We have got, not only in West . . . outside India; in India we have got standing order from all universities, libraries and many other places. Complete standing order value is 40,000 rupees.

Mr. Saxena: This is one aspect, of course, appreciable, but another aspect is that of teaching. That should be . . .

Prabhupāda: Teaching is going on.

Mr. Saxena: I mean for teaching, too. As far as books . . .

Prabhupāda: Several centers, hundred centers.

Mr. Saxena: Yes, there should be centers too, could give right interpretation to all these things. Because interpretation means . . . everybody is not in contact with Sanskrit.

Jagadīśa: But in the books Śrīla Prabhupāda has given elaborate purports.

Prabhupāda: Word-to-word meaning. You have seen our books?

Mr. Saxena: I have not seen this.

Prabhupāda: Show him. Now it is already there in the book. This is Bhagavad-gītā As It Is.

Mr. Saxena: Now you prepare us to go out.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Mr. Saxena: He prepares to give us some inspirational power so that we may go out and teach all these things to those persons. First we should be able enough.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jagadīśa: (showing book) Sanskrit, English transliteration, word for word.

Mr. Saxena: I see.

Jagadīśa: Translation and purport, so anyone who doesn't know Bhagavad-gītā can read. "Bhagavad-gītā is the widely read theistic science . . ."

Mr. Saxena: Thank you, thank you, thank you. You must have also this missionary spirit. (Hindi conversation with Prabhupāda and guest) So I am at your disposal now.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You give him one single room. So we have given word-to-word meaning, translation, purport. This book also we are selling, millions.

Mr. Saxena: I see.

Prabhupāda: We have published the small book and big book, eighty-four.

Mr. Saxena: Eighty-four. In that film I saw that how those foreigners, they are working in the press and preparing all those books and sending abroad. I have seen that film. The only request is this, that you once make us away from this saṁśaya. Saṁśayātmā vinaśyati. There should be no saṁśaya, and we people who are . . .

Prabhupāda: If you increase your attachment for Kṛṣṇa, then it will automatically. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). There is a verse of Rūpa Gosvāmī that one gopī is warning another gopī that,

smerāṁ bhaṅgī traya-paricitāṁ sāci-vistīrṇa-dṛṣṭiṁ

vaṁśīnyastādhara-kiśalayāmujjvalāṁ candrakeṇa

govindākhyāṁ haritanumitaḥ keśitīrtho 'pakaṇṭhe

mā prekṣiṣṭhāstava sakhe yadi 'sti raṅgaḥ bandhu-saṅge

(CC Adi 5.224)

"There is govindākhyāṁ haritanum, standing in keśitīrtho 'pakaṇṭhe, with flute and smiling, and with the moonshine it has become . . . He has become very, very bright. So, but don't see, don't see." "Why?" "Provided you have the desire no more your association with so-called society, friends. If you have got desire to enjoy society, friendship and love of this world, then don't see." The purport is that anyone who sees Kṛṣṇa actually, he loses interest in this. So therefore we must increase our interest in Kṛṣṇa, then automatically.

Mr. Saxena: (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Mā prekṣiṣṭhāstava yadi sakhe bandhu-saṅge 'sti raṅgaḥ. If you want to enjoy the company of your society, friendship and love, then don't see. It will be finished. For this reason they are now bringing charges against us that we are spoiling these young men by brainwash. There is great opposition in the United States to our movement, that we are spoiling these young men by giving some speculation, controlling over their mind, and simply injecting some ideas in their brain—brainwash.

Mr. Saxena: (Hindi conversation)

Prabhupāda: Who said this?

Mr. Saxena: I don't remember.

Prabhupāda: Then it is very popular phrase.

Mr. Saxena: (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Ne. The thing is anyone who may accept, that means he did not believe in the Deity worship. That is a fact. So how a real devotee can condemn Deity worship?

Mr. Saxena: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Nārakī-buddhi. This has been described, arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhīr guruṣu nara-matir vaiṣṇave jāti buddhir (Padma Purāṇa). Nārakī-buddhi.

Mr. Saxena: Nārakī.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Mr. Saxena: I think now you require rest. I hope I've not strained . . .

Devotee: (indistinct) . . . requires rest.

Mr. Saxena: (indistinct) . . . unjustice to put into so much strain during your rest hours. . . . (indistinct) . . . I will know the timetable?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jagadīśa: I will give you.

Mr. Saxena: Yes, you will give me. So I'll keep this one for my room.

Prabhupāda: No, you cannot keep. This is a sample.

Mr. Saxena: Acchā.

Prabhupāda: Pictures you can get, not . . .

Mr. Saxena: Ah, yes, yes, it makes no difference. Your preachings are more than pictures.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Devotee: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Jaya . . . (indistinct)

Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I've been considering . . . You told me to think about ways to . . . (break) (end).