760415 - Morning Walk - Bombay

Morning Walks by Date, 1976

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this Lecture

760415MW-BOMBAY - April 15, 1976 - 58.38 Minutes

Prabhupāda: . . . detached to that, Jain. So he was advertising about that Jain Muni.

Dr. Patel: Sushil Kumar.

Prabhupāda: Sushil Kumar. He went to San Francisco. He met me there. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So he has come back, so I inquired what is the result of his preaching.

Viśāla: (from a distance) All glories to Prabhupāda!

Prabhupāda: He said that he has converted one million persons to be vegetarian. So vegetarian . . . automatically our disciples, they are automatically vegetarian. There is no separate preaching. But what about the . . . he was talking about the ahiṁsā. And I told that vegetarian does not mean ahiṁsā.

Dr. Patel: The ahiṁsā should be practiced by manasa, vaca and karma. Mind, body and words.

Prabhupāda: No, in the śāstra it is said that ahastāni sa-hastānām apadāni catuṣ-padām (SB 1.13.47).

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Phalgūni tatra mahatām.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Phalgūni tatra mahatām.

Prabhupāda: Ah, phalgūni mahatāṁ tatra.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam.

Prabhupāda: Mahatāṁ tatra jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. This is natural, that one jīva is the food for another jīva. So how ahiṁsā is possible?

Dr. Patel: But that has been said in Rāmāyaṇa by that Mātanga Muni, you know, Mātanga Muni who was harboring Saubhari, and then he was killing one elephant and living on the elephant for one year, and all other ṛṣis were against him. He was, I mean, not practicing ahiṁsā. Then he gave the feast to all those ṛṣis, and the lāḍu starting moving about. Everywhere there is life, I mean, every grain of the wheat or these things.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore how it is possible? Because, after all, apart from Mātanga Muni, if this is the rule, that one living entity is the food for another living entity . . . this is the law of nature. Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. You cannot starve and live.

Dr. Patel: But sir . . .

Prabhupāda: And practically . . . eh?

Dr. Patel: We are killing the body and not . . . the soul is inkillable.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Don't go to the philosophy. First of all come to the practical. (Dr. Patel laughs) Come to the practical point of view, that after all, you have to eat; otherwise you cannot live. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunam (Hitopadeśa 25). So if you have to live another living entity, then how you can practice this ahiṁsā? Mean on the basic principle, the ahiṁsā paramo dharma, where is ahiṁsā? You have to kill. Either you kill vegetable or animal, you have to kill. Then where is the standing of ahiṁsā? That is my point.

Dr. Patel: When you kill purposelessly, without any useful . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. No interpretation. They say that, "No killing." So no killing is not possible. That is my point. Then where is the thesis stands that, "We are for not . . . no killing"?

Dr. Patel: Every action, sir, is, I mean, entangled in this.

Prabhupāda: So then our Vaiṣṇava's philosophy is perfect, because we take Kṛṣṇa prasādam. We don't say vegetables. We are not advocating vegetarianism. We are advocating that, "You take Kṛṣṇa prasādam." How perfect it is. We are not so nonsense that, "Because we have become vegetarian, we are perfect." The goats are vegetarian.

Dr. Patel: (laughter) And we are indirectly vegetarians if we eat goats.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Even if we vegetarian are, then how you become big? The goats are vegetarian. Huh? Apadāni catuṣ-padām (SB 1.13.47). This vegetable is meant for the catuṣ-padām, for the animals, four-legged animals. If somebody says that, "Why shall I take this vegetable? It is meant for the animals. I shall take the animal," that is a good argument. Yes. So to become vegetarian is not ahiṁsā at all. It is a bogus theory. To become a devotee and take Kṛṣṇa prasādam, that is perfect. Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). So automatically . . .

Dr. Patel: He does not say, "Give me a, I mean, a . . . (indistinct Hindi)"

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam.

Prabhupāda: That. Then there is perfection, if you take Kṛṣṇa prasādam. Prasāde sarva-duḥkhānāṁ hānir asyopajāyate (BG 2.65). So this vegetarianism is no, mean, good position.

Dr. Patel: No, no, the Jains have, I mean, pushed the vegetarians to a very, I mean, to an extent which is . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. What is the benefit? The benefit? The goats are vegetarian. Eh? There are so many animals, they are vegetarian. The monkeys are vegetarian.

Dr. Patel: They are perfect vegetarian. Perfect.

Prabhupāda: And they live in the forest.

Dr. Patel: They are sannyāsīs. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: But number-one rogue. Each of them keeping one dozen women, at least, and no discrimination between wife or daughter. No discrimination. Just like hogs. That's all. No discrimination.

Yaśomatīnandana: Cows are also vegetarians.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Yaśomatīnandana: Cows, they are also vegetarians.

Prabhupāda: Cows are vegetarian. That's all right. There are many animals, vegetarian. So there is no perfection of life unless we come to the point of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Simply by becoming vegetarian, simply by becoming nonviolent, simply by . . . these are all theories only. It has no value.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The argument is sometimes put forward that not everyone will be able to embrace Kṛṣṇa consciousness fully. Therefore it may be better for them to accept some portion, like, for example, taking up vegetarianism or even doing haṭha-yoga, or something like this is better than nothing.

Prabhupāda: No, that is not very essential. Essential is how to think of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. He doesn't say that you become vegetarian.

Dr. Patel: That said, tad-arthaṁ karma kaunteya mukta-saṅgaḥ samācara (BG 3.9): "You must do everything for Him, even eating."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: That is vegetarianism.

Prabhupāda: Then, then you are . . . then automatically he'll become vegetarian. Automatically he'll become vegetarian. If he takes Kṛṣṇa prasādam, then he is vegetarian automatically.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So it may seem like these other things are stepping-stones to Kṛṣṇa, but is it necessarily so?

Prabhupāda: No stepping-stone. This is the ultimate, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65), these four things. Unless you come to this point, there is no question of perfection.

Dr. Patel: That's right. Then you feel that every action of yours is done for Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Not feel, but actually it's an order.

Dr. Patel: Actually doing it.

Prabhupāda: Arjuna did not feel, he took order to kill. Not that you manufacture your idea. No. That is not. You take order directly and then do it; otherwise you'll be responsible. Therefore the guru is required to act as representative of Kṛṣṇa. If he says: "Yes, it is all right," then it is all right. Otherwise not. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ. Otherwise why guru is required? We must take every moment order from him.

Dr. Patel: Ya bhakti . . .

Prabhupāda: Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau (ŚU 6.23).

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Tasyaite kathitā hy arthāḥ.

Prabhupāda: Kathitā. You cannot manufacture some ideas that, "I am feeling I am doing for Kṛṣṇa." No. That will not be . . . direct order. She is going behind?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Today is a full moon day, and the full tide came at twelve o'clock by night. So after eight o'clock there is a full reverse of it, what do you call it?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Low tide.

Dr. Patel: Low tide. Yes. (Gujrati) (break)

Prabhupāda: Garuḍa. He is perfect vegetarian. You know what is his food? Snakes. (Dr. Patel laughs) And he is carrying the Lord. It is a devotee, you see? He is not vegetarian. And how powerful he is that one sparrow, a small bird, lost his egg. The samudra took it away. And he decided, "I shall dry this samudra." So he began to pick up some water. So Nārada Muni was passing. So he asked, "What you are doing?" And "Sir, yes, the samudra has taken my egg, so I shall dry it up." So he said: "But how you can do it? You are so small. You just pray to your head. You are bird, and he is the head of the birds. You just pray to Garuḍa. He can do it." So he prayed Garuḍa, and Garuḍa came and asked samudra, "Immediately deliver; otherwise I shall take step." Immediately it was delivered. Such powerful. Yes. And he was not a vegetarian.

Dr. Patel: Aisa bologe to ye shuru kar denge apna phir khane ka. (If you say like this, then these people will start eating non-vegetarian again.) (laughing)

Prabhupāda: Nahi hum to ye nahi bolte hain jo Krishna Conscious me hain. Ye sab bhanda nahin karne ka vegetarian hai, yeh hai, vo hai, ye sab me kuch dam nahi hai. Ye log bolenge hum log bhi vegetarian hai chalo kha lo. Aur tum . . . bhi khao suar wo bhi khata hai. (You become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is it. No, I do not say that one who is in Kṛṣṇa Consciousness—all this show is not required. I am vegetarian, I am this, I am that—there is no strength in all this. They will say we are also vegetarian, so eat them and you . . . also eat, the pig also eats.) (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Thank you very much. Namaskāra. Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Real culture is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. ab dekhiye na ye log sab Krishna Concious ho gaya, vegetarian ho gaya, non-drunkard ho gaya, no illicit sex, no gambling, automatically. Now you see these boys and girls have become Krishna Concious, they have become vegetarian, they don't drink . . . Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samā . . . (SB 5.18.12). If you simply turn these people to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all good qualities will come automatically. All good qualities. That is wanted. And we are practically seeing that. Simply by becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious, lover of Kṛṣṇa, they are becoming qualified. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā manorathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ (SB 5.18.12). There is no good qualification for a nondevotee. He'll simply act on mental speculation, that's all. It has no value.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes people are amazed that we've given up such sinful activities.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they should be amazed, because they are mental speculators.

Dr. Patel: You mean unconditional surrender.

Prabhupāda: And here are the surrendered souls. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, api cet sudurācāro. "Even they have got some bad symptoms," bhajate mām ananya-bhāk, "but if he is fully Kṛṣṇa conscious," sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ (BG 9.30), "he is sādhu." So if we want to make the whole world sādhu, perfect human being, then we have to push on this movement without any hesitation. All people will be sādhu, and then there will be peace and prosperity.

Dr. Patel: You mean bring about the spiritual communism of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: That is real com . . . everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. They are stating, "Everything belongs to the state." Why you are limiting? State is limited. Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Then it is perfect communism.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the Bible it says: "On earth as it is in heaven."

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the Bible it says: "On earth as it is in heaven," that the life on earth should be also under the domain of God.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But there is no program how to actually do that.

Prabhupāda: No, program is there. Kṛṣṇa is speaking, "Do this program, execute," man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad . . . (BG 18.65). Program is there, but rascal will not take it. There is no difficulty.

Dr. Patel: The Christian prayers are also the self-surrender.

Prabhupāda: Any prayer. If we become God conscious . . .

Dr. Patel: "Hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come."

Prabhupāda: Then it is all right. And without God consciousness there is no qualification. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. There cannot be any good qualities. (break)

Dr. Patel: Then His kingdom can come on earth; not otherwise.

Prabhupāda: No, no. If one man becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, he can deliver many millions. Not expected . . . you cannot expect all to become, but if one man is there, Kṛṣṇa conscious, he can deliver. (break) Kaścid yatati siddhaye, yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścid . . . (BG 7.3). So it is not so easy thing, but if there is one Kṛṣṇa conscious person, he can deliver many millions. (break) . . . ti śreṣṭhas lokas tad anuvartate (BG 3.21). There must be one śreṣṭha, ideal man, and then everyone will follow. And there is no śreṣṭha. That is the difficulty.

Dr. Patel: Śreṣṭha is only God. Śrī iṣṭha means śreṣṭha, sir. The śrī iṣṭha is only . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, śreṣṭha, but one who follows Him, he is also śreṣṭha.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Mahat-sevām.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Mahat-sevāṁ dvāram āhur vimukteḥ (SB 5.5.2).

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "By associating with devotees . . ."

Prabhupāda: Tamo-dvāraṁ yoṣitāṁ saṅgī-saṅgam. Tamo-dvāram, the path of darkness, if they associate with yoṣitāṁ saṅgī-saṅgam.

Dr. Patel: There is sat-saṅga sadācāraṁ nirāvinam. These three qualities come to men, sir.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Sat-saṅga means you have to associate with sat, devotees. Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya-saṁvido bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ (SB 3.25.25). If you associate with sat-saṅga, then you'll gradually relish Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise not.

Dr. Patel: Just like Nārada Muni, in his previous . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, anyone. Anyone. It is open to everyone. So therefore we are trying to open centers all parts of the world, to give them chance of sat-saṅga, so that gradually they will become perfect. And that is happening actually. Caitanya Mahāprabhu never said that you find out some first-class men. No. He said, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa (CC Madhya 7.128). It is not necessary that you have to find out some qualified person. Anyone. Simply instruct him what Kṛṣṇa has said, that's all. Yāre dekha tāre kaha. There is no question of selecting. Why selection? All are fallen. The so-called gentleman, he is also fallen.

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ

prapadyante narādhamāḥ

māyayāpahṛta-jñānā

āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ

(BG 7.15)

As soon as you see he is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is within these four groups — duṣkṛtina, mūḍha, narādhama, māyayā . . . immediately conclude.

Dr. Patel: Sir, duṣkṛtina, mūḍha, narādhama, all are māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Patel: All of them are māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ.

Prabhupāda: No, no, māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ.

Dr. Patel: They, all of them, all the three previous also.

Prabhupāda: So he may say that, "I have passed B.A., M.A., Ph.D., D.H.C.," and "Whether you are Kṛṣṇa conscious?" "No, sir." "Then you are a fool, rascal."

Dr. Patel: (laughs) These B.A., M.A., are māyā degrees.

Prabhupāda: This preaching is done by Śyāmasundara's little daughter, five years, six years. She goes to a gentleman, "Do you know Kṛṣṇa?" So he says: "No, I do not know." "The Supreme Personality of Godhead." Just see. This is preaching. A child can do this preaching work. She has learned from us, and she is convinced that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and she goes to anyone, "Do you know who is Kṛṣṇa?" He says: "No, I do not know." "The Supreme Personality." This is preaching. Then he is a good preacher. That's all. The rascal does not know Kṛṣṇa. He gets at least some information, "Here is Kṛṣṇa." And on this basis our Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara, Ph.D . . . you have read that book? It is first class. The scientist, the so-called scientist, unless he is insane, he cannot say that there is no God. He has written so nice, from scientific.

Dr. Patel: But the real scientists are also God conscious.

Prabhupāda: That is all right. He is real scientist.

Dr. Patel: You have been unfortunately against them, but think of Albert Einstein. He was totally God conscious throughout his life.

Prabhupāda: Yes, he is all right, but mostly they say: "What is the use of God? Now science, everything science." They say like that.

Dr. Patel: You have been very harsh to the scientists.

Prabhupāda: They are misleading. These rascals are misleading. That is the way.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He was very God conscious when he made the atomic bomb.

Dr. Patel: How many of us are scientists here? He might help you also.

Prabhupāda: We know real scientist because we know the biggest scientist, Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we are scientists. Without Him we don't claim to be scientists—fools, rascals. Ārādhito yadi haris tapasā tathā kim (Pañcarātra). He is everything. He doesn't require to. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). If you simply understand Kṛṣṇa, then you become scientist, philosopher. And I was never a scientist, so we challenge the scientists, and I have produced this scientist to challenge them. But I was never a scientist. That book is actually revolutionary amongst the scientists. Scientific Basis, you have read that?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I have read it.

Prabhupāda: Very nicely he has written, very, very nicely, from all scientific . . . he has challenged the scientists. He has clearly declared, "Darwin is wrong, and scientists, they do not know."

Dr. Patel: Now the modern scientists from Russia, they say, the . . . (indistinct) . . . that there is life on other stars, in other planets.

Prabhupāda: Not only that, they are interested in reading our books. We have received letter. We are sending representative.

Dr. Patel: Their communism is lost now, another ten years.

Prabhupāda: No, communism is lost, not. We do not say that you stop anything, but you make the center Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise it is zero. Zero, if you increase the number of zero, it is always zero. But put Kṛṣṇa or one by the side of zero, it becomes ten, hundred, thousand, lakhs.

Dr. Patel: Millions.

Prabhupāda: So we . . . our propaganda is bring Kṛṣṇa; then your zeros will be valued. Otherwise you are zeros.

Dr. Patel: Sir, they were saying that religion is an opium.

Prabhupāda: Yes, opium is very good sometimes. He is right. Tincture opium. Yes. Yes. All the drugs are used. You know very well.

Dr. Patel: Yes, yes, sir. In heart attack we give that first.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So opium is poison undoubtedly, but if it is in the hand of physician, it is nectarine. It can save the life. Whatever God has created, it has got some use. One must know. Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe yuktaṁ vairāgyam ucyate (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.255). That is wanted.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Marx's idea was that instead of trying to improve the condition of life, people would simply go to the church or like this and worship and accept their miserable condition of life without any material progress.

Prabhupāda: No, they do not know.

Dr. Patel: It is abstract materialism, sir.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Because the very theory of dialectical materialism is against the tenets of the religious teachings of sanātana-dharma.

Prabhupāda: No, that . . .

Dr. Patel: The spirit is more important than material.

Prabhupāda: No, their teaching is to become some strong atheist, because religion has been exploited by the so-called religious leaders. That is the difficulty. So they have become atheist.

Dr. Patel: Unless they change their very principle on which they are working. That is why I say we must spread the spiritual communism, sir, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the only way. The other day I talked about the dialectical materialism. That is the crux of the whole communism. You know it.

Prabhupāda: The communism will be immediately perfect as soon as it is connected with Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: But that is, sir . . . I mean, our sanātana-dharma is spiritual communism. That is what we actually try to preach them.

Prabhupāda: But you have lost it. You have lost it.

Dr. Patel: Yes, we have lost. That is right. And we are gaining it again. The heaven is lost; heaven may be regained. (laughs) What is that, Milton's . . .?

Prabhupāda: "Paradise . . ."

Dr. Patel: "Paradise Lost and Gained."

Prabhupāda: If you have lost Kṛṣṇa, that is paradise lost.

Dr. Patel: Paradise lost, that is. My paradise, everything, is lost.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) And this night I have explained, chanting outside the temple and chanting in the temple, it increases the value thousand times. That I have explained, this evening, er, this last night.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Chanting in the temple increases the . . .?

Prabhupāda: Value.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The value.

Prabhupāda: Potency, thousand times. Otherwise, why they are going to the Vṛndāvana? (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.

Dr. Patel: Sir, what is the difference between mānasī chanting and chanting . . .

Prabhupāda: No, mānasī chanting, that is smaraṇa. That is another thing. But chanting means the tongue must work. That is real chanting.

Dr. Patel: But if only tongue works and the mind does not work, it has no value.

Prabhupāda: So mind will . . . you chant loudly, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa"—the mind will come.

Dr. Patel: This mind, buddhi, and the jīva in it, all the three must carry on . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then it is real chanting.

Dr. Patel: . . . with the chanting.

Prabhupāda: You have to practice. You have to practice. Not all of a sudden these three things can be combined so you can become . . . it requires practice. Jaya. Abhyāsa-yoga-yuktena cetasā nānya-gāminā (BG 8.8). You have to practice. Your mind cannot go outside. Then it will be . . . you have to become the master of your mind. You cannot be dictated by the mind. Then you are victim. There is a verse that, "The mind is friend, and mind is enemy. One who can dictate the mind, his mind is friend. And one who is dictated by the mind, his mind is enemy." So we have to learn how to dictate, control the mind. And that is yoga system. Yoga indriya-saṁyama.

Dr. Patel: Sir, greatest yoga . . .

Prabhupāda: Greatest yoga is devotee.

Dr. Patel: . . . to join your mind with God, with Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. If one's mind is always engaged in Kṛṣṇa, then he is the greatest, biggest yogī.

yoginām api sarveṣāṁ

mad-gatenāntarātmanā

śraddhāvān bhajate yo māṁ

sa me yuktatamo mataḥ

(BG 6.47)

That is first-class yoga. (break) . . . means keep them always engaged in Kṛṣṇa's activities, mind. That is wanted.

Dr. Patel: Indriyāṇi pramāthīni haranti prasabhaṁ manaḥ (BG 2.60).

Prabhupāda: Yes, if your indriyas are engaged in Kṛṣṇa's activities, they are no more pramāthīni; they are controlled. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam, hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanam (CC Madhya 19.170). When your indriyas are purified, then it will be only engaged in hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanam. That is bhakti.

Dr. Patel: Rasa-varjaṁ raso 'py asya paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59).

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Unless you have complete, I mean, God consciousness, paraṁ dṛṣṭvā, till then, the rasa does not go, the very sting of your indriyas. So it becomes sort of a vicious circle, sir, and it becomes very difficult to vacate from that today.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate (CC Madhya 19.170).

Dr. Patel: By bhakti you can break.

Prabhupāda: Bhakti means when you engage all your senses in the service of Hṛṣīkeśa. That is bhakti. But that we cannot. We say: "Oh, I have got this duty, I have got that duty," not cent percent engaged.

Dr. Patel: Ananya-bhakti.

Prabhupāda: Ananya, that is wanted. When cent percent engaged, that is ananya. Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk (BG 9.30). If one takes to that position, ananya-bhāk, then even there is some mistake, even there is some fault, still, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ—he becomes sādhu, immediately. (break)

Dr. Patel: . . . for God, for Kṛṣṇa, is bhakti.

Prabhupāda: Yes, under the superior direction, not whimsically.

Dr. Patel: No.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Whimsical, you cannot do anything.

Dr. Patel: After complete surrender of the buddhi and mind . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: . . . all the actions that are done in the service of God is bhakti . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. When . . .

Dr. Patel: Without surrendering . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: . . . the actions are not bhakti.

Prabhupāda: That is the example in the Bhagavad-gītā. When Arjuna saw that, "Kṛṣṇa wants it positively. Never mind my . . ."

Dr. Patel: Then the kariṣye vacanam . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is bhakti. "Never mind I do not agree with Kṛṣṇa, but I see that He wants it, I must do." This is bhakti. Kṛṣṇa should be given preference. That is bhakti, not my whimsical way. That is not bhakti. And because we cannot understand Kṛṣṇa, therefore Kṛṣṇa is giving direction:

tad viddhi praṇipātena

paripraśnena sevayā

upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ

jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ

(BG 4.34)

Go to the person who has seen actually and take information. Simply by reading you will be misleaded. Even persons like Gandhi or Dr. Radhakrishnan, Aurobindo, they were misled because they wanted to manufacture their own meaning. They did not like to act as Kṛṣṇa says.

Passerby: . . . (indistinct Hindi)

Prabhupāda: (to passerby) Hmm. (aside) You are very good devotee. Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). So if one offers his namaskāra, that is also taken into account, asset. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt (BG 2.40).

Dr. Patel: Dharmasya means that dharma which is affixed to find God is dharma.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is bhakti. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). You can understand Kṛṣṇa only by bhakti, not by jñāna, yoga, karma. So a little bhakti will help you to make further progress. It is . . . no . . . now, what is that? "It is never lost." What is that verse? Nehābhikrama-nāśo 'sti (BG 2.40).

Dr. Patel: Nehābhikrama-nāśo 'sti.

Prabhupāda: Nāśo 'sti. So if you do little, it will remain ever, permanently. Then you will make increase. You'll increase again.

Indian man(1): As soon as you start chanting, bhakti starts, and then further development is the result of chanting?

Prabhupāda: Yes. But if we think that, "I am chanting. I can do all nonsense," then it is wrong.

Dr. Patel: First of all, sir, it is the "I-ness" which must go. And you must surrender your "I" at the sacred feet of . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, "I-ness" is there. If I decide, "I shall not do anything which is not for Kṛṣṇa . . ."

Dr. Patel: I did not mean that, sir. Your "I-ness" means your ego must be sacrificed at the feet of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: No, ego is . . .

Indian man (1): How will it go unless the chanting . . .

Dr. Patel: Unless you surrender yourself.

Indian man (1): Even the chanting will go with that ego.

Prabhupāda: Ego, ego is there, but false and right.

Dr. Patel: False ego.

Prabhupāda: False ego is that, "I am Patel. I am Patel"

Dr. Patel: Hum kuch hai. (I am something.) (laughter)

Prabhupāda: And real ego is, "I am Kṛṣṇa's servant."

Indian man (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: This is ego.

Indian man (1): Real ego. That is the reason. That is the reason.

Prabhupāda: So long I'll think that, "I am Patel. I am master of this man . . ." (Dr. Patel talking simultaneously) Koi baat nahin hum Kṛṣṇa bhakt hain. (No problem, as long as I am a devotee of Kṛṣṇa.) People are, I mean to say, entangled with these all upādhis. So therefore bhakti begins when one is upādhi-less. No more upādhi. Gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ (CC Madhya 13.80). That is real ego.

Dr. Patel: That is complete submersion of your ego. Dāsa-dāsa-dāsānudāsa. I mean, after Aapka śarīra bhi bus. (Your body also.) (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . mānasa deha geha, yo kichu mora, arpiluṅ tuwā pade, nanda-kiśora. Nanda-kiśora . . . Hamare paas jo kuch hai, hai kya. Ye ek sharir hai aur ek mind hai aur ek family hai. 'Manas deho geho' ab jo kuch hai ye sab samarpan, bus ho gaya. Hai to nahi kuch sabhi aap ka hai. Lekin hum samajhta hai ye hamara sharir hai, ye hamara mind hai aur ye hamara family hai, ye hamara state hai, bus itna hi. To Jo kuch hai wo sabi aap le lijiye, bus ho gaya. (Whatever we have, we have. We have this body, our mind and a family. "Manas deho geho"—now whatever we have we must surrender, that's all. We don't possess anything, everything belongs to You. But we understand that this is my body, this is my mind, this is my family, this is my state—that's all. So whatever we have, you take away everything—finished.)

Dr. Patel: You hand over the steer of your "now."

Prabhupāda: Yes. The next line is mārobi rākhobi, yo icchā tohārā. Ab to hum sab de diya, ab jasia iccha aapka. Aap marna hai mar dijiye, rakhna hai rakh lijiye. (Now I have given up everything, now it is Your will. You want to kill me, kill me—You want to save me, save me.) This is surrender.

Dr. Patel: Yes, sir, that reminds me of a story that I read that one man, one English lord, had gone on a pigeon shooting. I told once this story. And he had got lot of pigeons in a gunny bag, and he would allow one pigeon to go, and shoot. One pigeon, instead of flying, fell down at his feet. He could not shoot it. Like that. And this reminds me, this story, always reminds me, this complete surrender. He could not shoot that.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: So God will not marana, will not kill. He will never maro, cannot maro. (He will never kill, cannot kill) . . . because you are at His very feet. There is a provision.

Prabhupāda: Nahi God marega kyon, jo kuch surrender karte nahin unka raksha karta hai (No, why will God kill—those who don't surrender, he protects them also.)

Dr Patel: To surrender ko kaisa nahi karega. (So is one surrendered, why will He not protect?)

Prabhupāda: Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). To surrender ko kyo nahi karega. Yehi to surrender chahiye. Bhagavan to sab ko raksha karta hai. He is supplying everything, without any surrendering. Jase government hai. Government jo prison house me hai usko khane ko nahi deta hai. Usko bhi khane ka, hospital jo bimar ho jaye care leta hai. (So why will He not supply to those who have surrendered? This surrender is required—God protects everyone. Just like the government is giving food to the prisoners, it takes care of the prisoners—gives them food, medical facilities, takes care of them.) But that care and outside-the-jail care, there is little difference. In the prison house, even one is very highly qualified, and if he applies for some good post, he will not be given. He'll not be given. But outside the prison? "Yes, you are qualified. Come on." The same government, the same man, but so long one is criminal, there is no consideration. (break)

Dr. Patel: . . . that will be a problem.

Prabhupāda: Yes, regularly I get at one o'clock.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One night Prabhupāda rang the buzzer, it was twelve-thirty.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda was translating.

Prabhupāda: Yes, sometimes earlier.

Dr. Patel: I get up at three-thirty. It is not possible to get up at one o'clock. You must not be sleeping . . .

Prabhupāda: Not more than three hours. I go to sleep at ten and I get up at one.

Dr. Patel: Satva pradhan me sleep kam hoti hai. You get less sleep when the mode of goodness is more.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is, ultimate success is nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau, when you can conquer over nidrā, sleeping; āhāra, eating. Because animal life means āhāra nidrā bhaya maithuna. And spiritual life means you have to conquer over this. That is spiritual life. Kuch hai ek cup chai nahi milne se pagal ho jate hain. (There are some who become restless if they don't get a cup of tea.) In spiritual life . . .

Dr. Patel: You'll have me drinking tea.

Prabhupāda: No, everyone, not you.

Dr. Patel: I don't drink.

Prabhupāda: Spiritual life means . . . Teen roz ko khane ko nahi mila to parvah nahi. aur nahi khayeg to kya hoga. (If we don't eat for three days it doesn't matter and if we don't eat what will happen?) And Dhruva Mahārāja starved six months, a boy of five years old. It is possible. He did not eat. Simply tapasya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Agar khane ka phikar hota to America me nahi ja sakte, ek paisa nahi tha. kya khayega, kahan soyega. Chalo bhagavan jo dega, nahi dega to starve karenge, bus. (If i was worried about eating then I shouldn't have gone to America. I didn't have a single penny, what will I eat? Where will I sleep? Okay God will provide—if He doesn't give I will starve, that's all.)

Dr. Patel: That jñānī, his wife worshiping . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Job hai visa.

Dr. Patel: No, he had no job. He then searched out a job. In those days, there was no job visas there anywhere.

Prabhupāda: No, during Partition . . . (break) . . . policy to attract these, all the intelligent class of Indian, to India . . . er . . .

Devotee (2): England.

Prabhupāda: There is job visa. They gave indiscriminately job visa, so that India will be vacant of all intelligent persons, and they cannot make . . . that was the policy.

Dr. Patel: Why they are going space? United States are giving also what we call job visa.

Prabhupāda: No, not only. Everywhere I have seen. One who is qualified, he gets very easily job in Europe or America, high salaried. They get cheaper. Yes. What the Americans will accept for two thousand dollars, Indians will accept at seven hundred dollars.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: When Indians were asked to leave Uganda, the Canadian government offered free passage, but only to persons who had the material qualifications they wanted.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Qualified man is very much welcome in foreign countries. I have seen. In Canada, in America, in England, in Germany—everywhere. Because they have got so many jobs, they require so many qualified men. And here, where is so many jobs?

Dr. Patel: There are so many qualified men, but no jobs.

Prabhupāda: No jobs. (break)

Dr. Patel: You have to employ yourself, sir, here.

Prabhupāda: So many Ph.D.'s, they are loitering. Therefore they become Communists and this, what is called? Naxalites. Educated young boys, they have no job.

Dr. Patel: These two parts of India . . . (all speaking together)

Dr. Patel: Bengal and Kerala, they're highly educated communities. They are the, I mean, advanced Communists also, both the countries. In Gujarat there is no communism, though we are educated.

Prabhupāda: Jab koi dekhta hai ye bengali hai nahi-nahi, kyoki janta hai aakar ke sabko naxalite kar dega ye bhi ek baat hai. (When they see that they are Bengalis then no, no—because they know that they will come and make everyone a naxalite. This is another thing.)

Indian man (1): Lekin ye bengali log ka mind. (But the mind of these Bengalis) . . .

Prabhupāda: Nahi jab wo bigad jata hai na to first-class bigad jata. When he is spoilt, then he is first-class spoilt.

Dr. Patel: Just like assassin is aside. I have seen it

Prabhupāda: Yes. And otherwise you will find Caitanya and other, so many big, big men, Rabindranath Tagore, Surendranath Bannerjee, Vivekananda, and so on, so on.

Indian man (1): Aurobindo was . . . Nikal gaya to nikal gaya nahi to. (If he escapes, then there is no worry) . . .

Prabhupāda: Aurobindo was condemned to death. Nahi bigda hua tha bomb manufacture kar raha tha. (No he was spoilt, he was manufacturing a bomb.)

Dr. Patel: His brother.

Prabhupāda: No, no, he.

Dr. Patel: No, sir, I think . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. He was condemned to death, then C. R. Das saved him. Then he decided, "This politics has no value. Let me go to Kṛṣṇa consciousness." He dreamt at night, "Why you are bothering with these things?" This is the history. So just after getting off, the judge, immediately left.

Dr. Patel: He came back, Chandranagar, to his place.

Prabhupāda: Jab gandhi jail me tha kitna bar request kiya. (When Gandhi was in jail, he requested him so many times) . . .

Dr. Patel: He never came. After svarājya he never came. He was asked . . .

Prabhupāda: But that is all nonsense.

Dr. Patel: He was requested to come to Delhi, on 15th August '47. He refused.

Prabhupāda: That is . . . (break)

Dr. Patel: . . . find fulfillment there only, God consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). This is the sign of bhakti, that he has no more taste in anything material. That is bhakti. Aur bhakt bhi bane, ram-nam bhi kare aur politics me chale. Jo ram ka bhakt hai sab ko sikhaya ram ka bhakt bano wo politics mein kyo jayega. (This is not good and he wants to become a devotee also—he wants to chant holy names of the Lord and also join politics. One who is a devotee of the Lord, he will teach everyone devotion. Why should he enter politics? This is not good.)

Dr. Patel: And artha.

Prabhupāda: Dharma cannot be. Therefore Bhāgavata said, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo (SB 1.1.2). Dharmārtha-kāma-mokṣa (SB 4.8.41, CC Ādi 1.90)—these are all cheating. These are all cheating. Yes. Dharma means you become . . . generally people go to temple to get some material gains: "O God, give us our daily bread." That is the idea. Dharma is to get some material profit. And why material profit? For sense gratification. Dharma, artha, kāma. And when he's baffled in sense gratification, he wants to become one with God, mokṣa. These are all cheating. Therefore Bhāgavata says, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra (SB 1.1.2). And Śrīdhara Svāmī says, atra mokṣa-vāñchām api nirastam. So long one is stuck up even up to mokṣa-vāñchā, he'll be . . . he is in trouble. Therefore Kṛṣṇa, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Beginning from dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa (SB 4.8.41, CC Ādi 1.90), you give up everything. Then you'll become purified. Even if you have got mokṣa-vāñchā, then you are in the material world. Yes.

Indian man (3): Then we get parā bhakti.

Prabhupāda: No. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says:

brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā

na śocati na kāṅkṣati

samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu

mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām

(BG 18.54)

When one is actually in liberated position, mokṣa, brahma-bhūtaḥ, from that platform bhakti begins.

Dr. Patel: Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. He has realized presence of Kṛṣṇa everywhere.

Prabhupāda: No, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu means he knows that everyone is spirit soul, part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, and this body is simply external tabernacle. That is samaḥ sarveṣu.

Dr. Patel: Not visualizing the presence of God everywhere?

Prabhupāda: Presence of God is there. When God's part and parcel . . . Aap ka ungli hai to aap bhi hain. Khali ungli to hota nahi. Ek aadmi ka ungli ka kuch treatment kar rahe hain to uska mane ungli bhi hai jiska vo ungli hai. This is vision. Dekhiye idhar surya ka ansh bhi hai ninety million miles away to surya bhi hai isko samajhne me koi mushkil hai kya. To surya ka kiran hai to surya bhi hai. (If your finger is there, then you are also there. Only the finger cannot exist. One mans finger is being treated which means that the person is there, whose finger is being treated? This is vision. Notice there is part of the sun—here ninety million miles away. So the sun is also there, is it difficult to understand this? So the sun's rays are there, so the sun is also there.)

Dr. Patel: Sir, this one question is asked by many people that, "How God can have aṁśas? He is perfect. He cannot be divided into multiple parts."

Prabhupāda: He is not divided.

Dr. Patel: That is what I say.

Prabhupāda: No, that is foolishness.

Dr. Patel: That is what I mean to say.

Prabhupāda: No. Just like . . . it is said, but they are foolish. They cannot understand śāstra. Pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate (Śrī Īśopaniṣad, Invocation). That the rascals, they do not understand. They think materially. Just like this flower. If I take little, little, little, then there is no flower. They are thinking like that. But here is the warning: pūrṇasya pūrṇam . . . even the whole flower is taken, still whole.

Dr. Patel: That is God.

Prabhupāda: That is God. They are materially thinking, "If God has bifurcated Himself in so many, everywhere, all-pervading, then where is God?" This is foolishness. That Kṛṣṇa says that,

mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ

jagad avyakta-mūrtinā

mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni

na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ

(BG 9.4)

"Still I am separate." This is wanted. The example is there. Suppose a sunshine is there and throughout the whole universe, and if you say: "Now sun is finished," is sun finished? This is all foolishness. The sun is there; sun-god is there. Still, the sunshine is spread all over the universe.

Dr. Patel: Pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya . . .

Prabhupāda: Pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam . . . (Śrī Īśopaniṣad, Invocation)

Dr. Patel: . . . evāvaśiṣyate.

Prabhupāda: He is distributing. This is material thing. He is distributing full light and full temperature for millions and millions of years, he is still the same. If it is possible for a material thing which is creation of God, how much it is possible for the Supreme? Therefore it is said . . .

Dr. Patel: Because God is present everywhere by His avyakta-mūrti and He is present in Goloka . . .

Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana.

Dr. Patel: In His original form.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūtaḥ (BS 5.37). This is God. Not that . . . Jasie aap idhar hain aapka apartment me aap nahi hai. (Like you are here and you are not there in your apartment.) That is not God. God is in His apartment, at the same time everywhere. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). That is God. Wo to God ko cheap bana liya hai na. (They have made God very cheap.)

Dr. Patel: He doesn't understand.

Prabhupāda: No. Mūḍho nābhijānāti Wo to bol diya hai. wo mudha hai. They have already said, they are rascals. Without knowing God, they are becoming God.

Dr. Patel: God has made them mūḍhas by His māyā, sir.

Prabhupāda: No, no. They have become. They don't want to . . . na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante (BG 7.15). Jo bhakti nahi karte hai wo mudha rahega aajivan, janm-janmantar vo mudha hi rahega aur usko bolta hai hum tumko gyani bana dega, so nahi gya. (Those who don't practice devotion, they remain rascals their whole life. Life after life they remain rascal and someone says: "I will impart knowledge to you," but he doesn't go.) That is in . . . insisting. God isliye aata hai kuynki tum mudha rehta hai. God comes because you remain a rascal. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati (BG 4.7). Dharmasya glāniḥ means when the people become mūḍha.

Dr. Patel: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But He comes to give him intelligence, but he will not take it. He wants that "I shall remain a mūḍha." "All right, you remain."

Dr. Patel: Sir, God incarnates for many purposes, not only . . . (indistinct) . . . but for protecting . . .

Prabhupāda: This is the total . . . total purpose is paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). To ye . . . material nahi hai, mudha hai. (So he is not a materialist, he is a rascal.)

Dr. Patel: I am going to ask you a bad question . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: . . . that if God wanted to destroy the rascals and mūḍhas, He could have done by His finger.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Why does He come here? He comes here . . . Lad ladane ko, aap ke jaisa bhakton ke liye lad ladane ke liye Bhagavan incarnation leta hai. (To distribute love, to love his devotees like you, God incarnates.) Am I right?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: It is not only for killing the . . .

Prabhupāda: Otherwise, how He can give contact? Contact.

Dr. Patel: He could have done it from there only.

Prabhupāda: Nahi wo to ek ishara se. (No, that he can do just by His glance.) Actually to give him favor.

Dr. Patel: To favor the bhaktas, sir.

Prabhupāda: Not only bhaktas, even abhaktas—by killing them. Yes.

Dr. Patel: Ha. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also favor. Nahi to bhagvan jisko marte hain wo sidhe brahmlok me chale jate hain. (Otherwise those who God kills attain liberation and go to Brahma's abode immediately.) Mukti immediately. All the soldiers and kings who saw Kṛṣṇa in the battlefield, they were all muktas immediately. Yes. Because at the time of death they were seeing Kṛṣṇa, so they become all delivered.

Dr. Patel: They got greater benefit than the living people behind. The Pāṇḍavas, they said, that "Those people actually was . . . by death, in presence of Kṛṣṇa. They saw their life by . . ."

Prabhupāda: Svarūpa.

Dr. Patel: Svarūpa.

Prabhupāda: Svarūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ (SB 2.10.6). That is mukti. When one is situated in his own original, constitutional position, that is called mukti. Svarūpeṇa mukti. Muktir hitvānyathā rūpaṁ svarūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ. This is mukti. (end)